10 ms·

Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

45 points by qz_ 8y ago

Tomte 8y ago
I sure hope the EU hasn't given in to the DUP. But since May won't get anything through parliament, it's probably a moot point.
- man-and-laptop 8y ago
  [edit] w/e
  - andrepd 8y ago
    Opinions are partisan? Your comment lacks substance. That may be why it's being downvoted (for the record I didn't downvote you).
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  My expectation is that everyone is going to suddenly fall into line and she'll get it through.
  - johannes1234321 8y ago
    May's play is to delay as much as possible and then at last moment call Parliament to vote, when there really is no more time left to negotiate. Then Parliament only has to choice of "no deal" or "May's deal" and she seems to hope for enough votes for her's ... sad times
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Corbyn wants Brexit to happen he’ll whip Labour into passing it.
  - Jonnax 8y ago
    I mean they can disobey the whip. He should have the self awareness that trying that could result in Labour collapsing like the LibDems did.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      He already has caused more harm than good to the Labour Party over his stance on Brexit. He’s been a Euroskeptic since the 70’s he sees the EU as a neoliberal capitalistic endeavor which stands against everything he stands for. Over the past 2 years now he showed no opposition to Brexit which goes against the wishes of his party members and their constituents and against the ideals of being an opposition party. I really don’t see him changing his tune now as he showed he is incapable of letting his own ideals take the backseat to the will of the party.
      - have_faith 8y ago
        > he showed he is incapable of letting his own ideals take the backseat to the will of the party A trait that has garnered him many followers.
        evgen 8y ago
        Fewer and fewer every day. Like Trump, Corbyn has a hard-core minority that will back him no matter what, but his support within the general party diminishes every time a new poll comes out and his popularity within the general electorate is currently down in the rubbish levels enjoyed by our sad PM. He may currently be seen as the lesser of two evils, but not by much.
  - digianarchist 8y ago
    Labour's position is to vote against the Chequer's agreement.
digianarchist 8y ago
Irish foreign minister said the negotiations are still ongoing: https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1062386105713131521 https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1062386105713131521
- akerro 8y ago
  That's why it's a draft... 5 months before deadline...
  - tpm 8y ago
    The agreement has to be ratified by EP and 28 national parliaments though, so realistically it's much less than 5 months.
matthewmacleod 8y ago
This all seems to be entirely moot, given that there is a slim chance of this deal getting through parliament - assuming it’s anything like it’s expected to be. What a colossal waste of time.
- arethuza 8y ago
  Do you expect May to resign if it doesn't pass? NB I have no idea what is going to happen over the next while.
  - matthewmacleod 8y ago
    I don’t see how she can stay in her position, but then I’ve been so baffled by what’s happened lately that anything’s now possible. You’re not alone, FWIW. I’m pretty sure literally nobody knows how this is going to play out.
    - jwdunne 8y ago
      I'm genuinely surprised she's hung on as long as she has. We're going through a very strange period in politics.
      - jcranmer 8y ago
        The UK prime minister's office is a hot potato. No one actually wants to be in a position where they have to make the hard decisions; they instead want to be in a position where they can criticize the decisions for being wrong (without having to offer any alternatives!).
      - matthewmacleod 8y ago
        Like the other reply says, nobody wants this job. It’s difficult to remain neutral, but… there’s realistically no feasible way to deliver Brexit without medium-term economic damage, or alternatively accepting essentially all EU rules while having minimal influence on them. Few serious politicians wanted it, and they don’t want to step into a role where they have to deliver it. The idea seems to be to let her take the blame for the inevitable failure first.
Bantros 8y ago
Shambolic
man-and-laptop 8y ago
Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fit?" Also, this kind of unrestricted immigration is a historical anomaly. 100s of years ago, it took too long to travel from one place to another, and so people who lived far away were more different to each other. It's not clear whether throwing all the borders open will result in something stable that will last for centuries. It's also a colossal experiment. If the experiment doesn't work out (see the above paragraph) then 28 countries pay the price. The UK will be deeply affected because it's an immigrant magnet, due to its high living standards, a lot of employment opportunities, and a widely spoken national language; something might happen to Romania and Poland, given that much of their population has apparently emigrated. If the experiment turns out bad, then multiply the impact by 28 for each of the 28 countries. And there was a recent article on HN about an EU law that says newspaper headlines are going under copyright. Again, mistakes like this affect 500 million people (the citizens of the EU) and 28 different countries. This is a monoculture, which is bad in nature; why not in politics? The Ottoman monoculture might have been one of the things that set the Middle East / North Africa back. For instance, the Ottomans banned printing (in Arabic). How would that have been good for science? And China's another famous empire/union (monoculture), in which one emperor dissolved their fleet, which was the most advanced at the time, impacting their trade, and preventing them from settling elsewhere. How is a European, or even a globalised monoculture, any better? On the other hand, I can see how the immediate economic impacts of Brexit might be bad.
- jcranmer 8y ago
  > If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fit?" That's patently false. The EU doesn't prohibit (justified) immigration restrictions, and that sort of immigrant wave would be grounds for imposing restrictions.
benj111 8y ago
So, do we (the public) get to see this agreement? I thought the vote was about taking power back from unaccountable Brussels etc, etc, etc. So what happens now? If half the torys are already against this, there doesn't seem much of a chance of this passing. May has ruled out a second referendum (I know I shouldn't take her word for it, but I cant see her now announcing a 2nd referendum). So what now? She steps down/ is pushed. Then A) A Brexiteer takes us out without a deal. B) No one wants to take responsibility for removing us and calls a 2nd ref. C) election called. Then back to square one? This is the option I'm most worried about. Labour doesn't seem ready to stand on a manifesto of remain. The lib Dems wont be able to get a majority, so brexiting parties will win by default, except we have no idea who. And they wont have anytime to do anything. Did I miss one? Edit: Spellong
ProxCoques 8y ago
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: there is going to be one hell of a bust-up before this is over.

45 points by qz_ 8y ago

I sure hope the EU hasn't given in to the DUP. But since May won't get anything through parliament, it's probably a moot point.

man-and-laptop 8y ago
[edit] w/e
- andrepd 8y ago
  Opinions are partisan? Your comment lacks substance. That may be why it's being downvoted (for the record I didn't downvote you).
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
chrisseaton 8y ago
My expectation is that everyone is going to suddenly fall into line and she'll get it through.
- johannes1234321 8y ago
  May's play is to delay as much as possible and then at last moment call Parliament to vote, when there really is no more time left to negotiate. Then Parliament only has to choice of "no deal" or "May's deal" and she seems to hope for enough votes for her's ... sad times
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
dogma1138 8y ago
Corbyn wants Brexit to happen he’ll whip Labour into passing it.
- Jonnax 8y ago
  I mean they can disobey the whip. He should have the self awareness that trying that could result in Labour collapsing like the LibDems did.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    He already has caused more harm than good to the Labour Party over his stance on Brexit. He’s been a Euroskeptic since the 70’s he sees the EU as a neoliberal capitalistic endeavor which stands against everything he stands for. Over the past 2 years now he showed no opposition to Brexit which goes against the wishes of his party members and their constituents and against the ideals of being an opposition party. I really don’t see him changing his tune now as he showed he is incapable of letting his own ideals take the backseat to the will of the party.
    - have_faith 8y ago
      > he showed he is incapable of letting his own ideals take the backseat to the will of the party A trait that has garnered him many followers.
      - evgen 8y ago
        Fewer and fewer every day. Like Trump, Corbyn has a hard-core minority that will back him no matter what, but his support within the general party diminishes every time a new poll comes out and his popularity within the general electorate is currently down in the rubbish levels enjoyed by our sad PM. He may currently be seen as the lesser of two evils, but not by much.
- digianarchist 8y ago
  Labour's position is to vote against the Chequer's agreement.

digianarchist 8y ago

Irish foreign minister said the negotiations are still ongoing: https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1062386105713131521 https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1062386105713131521

akerro 8y ago
That's why it's a draft... 5 months before deadline...
- tpm 8y ago
  The agreement has to be ratified by EP and 28 national parliaments though, so realistically it's much less than 5 months.

matthewmacleod 8y ago

This all seems to be entirely moot, given that there is a slim chance of this deal getting through parliament - assuming it’s anything like it’s expected to be. What a colossal waste of time.

arethuza 8y ago
Do you expect May to resign if it doesn't pass? NB I have no idea what is going to happen over the next while.
- matthewmacleod 8y ago
  I don’t see how she can stay in her position, but then I’ve been so baffled by what’s happened lately that anything’s now possible. You’re not alone, FWIW. I’m pretty sure literally nobody knows how this is going to play out.
  - jwdunne 8y ago
    I'm genuinely surprised she's hung on as long as she has. We're going through a very strange period in politics.
    - jcranmer 8y ago
      The UK prime minister's office is a hot potato. No one actually wants to be in a position where they have to make the hard decisions; they instead want to be in a position where they can criticize the decisions for being wrong (without having to offer any alternatives!).
    - matthewmacleod 8y ago
      Like the other reply says, nobody wants this job. It’s difficult to remain neutral, but… there’s realistically no feasible way to deliver Brexit without medium-term economic damage, or alternatively accepting essentially all EU rules while having minimal influence on them. Few serious politicians wanted it, and they don’t want to step into a role where they have to deliver it. The idea seems to be to let her take the blame for the inevitable failure first.

Bantros 8y ago

Shambolic

man-and-laptop 8y ago

Opinion on Brexit. Hopefully of interest: I'm torn on Brexit. If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fit?" Also, this kind of unrestricted immigration is a historical anomaly. 100s of years ago, it took too long to travel from one place to another, and so people who lived far away were more different to each other. It's not clear whether throwing all the borders open will result in something stable that will last for centuries. It's also a colossal experiment. If the experiment doesn't work out (see the above paragraph) then 28 countries pay the price. The UK will be deeply affected because it's an immigrant magnet, due to its high living standards, a lot of employment opportunities, and a widely spoken national language; something might happen to Romania and Poland, given that much of their population has apparently emigrated. If the experiment turns out bad, then multiply the impact by 28 for each of the 28 countries. And there was a recent article on HN about an EU law that says newspaper headlines are going under copyright. Again, mistakes like this affect 500 million people (the citizens of the EU) and 28 different countries. This is a monoculture, which is bad in nature; why not in politics? The Ottoman monoculture might have been one of the things that set the Middle East / North Africa back. For instance, the Ottomans banned printing (in Arabic). How would that have been good for science? And China's another famous empire/union (monoculture), in which one emperor dissolved their fleet, which was the most advanced at the time, impacting their trade, and preventing them from settling elsewhere. How is a European, or even a globalised monoculture, any better? On the other hand, I can see how the immediate economic impacts of Brexit might be bad.

jcranmer 8y ago
> If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fit?" That's patently false. The EU doesn't prohibit (justified) immigration restrictions, and that sort of immigrant wave would be grounds for imposing restrictions.

benj111 8y ago

So, do we (the public) get to see this agreement? I thought the vote was about taking power back from unaccountable Brussels etc, etc, etc. So what happens now? If half the torys are already against this, there doesn't seem much of a chance of this passing. May has ruled out a second referendum (I know I shouldn't take her word for it, but I cant see her now announcing a 2nd referendum). So what now? She steps down/ is pushed. Then A) A Brexiteer takes us out without a deal. B) No one wants to take responsibility for removing us and calls a 2nd ref. C) election called. Then back to square one? This is the option I'm most worried about. Labour doesn't seem ready to stand on a manifesto of remain. The lib Dems wont be able to get a majority, so brexiting parties will win by default, except we have no idea who. And they wont have anytime to do anything. Did I miss one? Edit: Spellong

ProxCoques 8y ago

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: there is going to be one hell of a bust-up before this is over.