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H-1B visa fraud: Sunnyvale man indicted for bringing in 600 workers illegally
- BIackSwan 8y agoThis is good. I have seen a lot of workers/friends who applied legitimately get fucked because of this kind of abuse of the system. I still think expansion of the h1b program is necessary since there is a lot of demand. But curbing the abuse will definitely help the current set of people opting to use the legal way.
- sneak 8y agoNothing about this is good. The entire system is one of arbitrary inefficiency. Punishing someone for trying to work around it and labeling it “fraud” when the only fraud going on is pushing a protectionist agenda as a free market isn’t a benefit for anyone.
- slededit 8y agoFraud wasn’t a mere label in this case. The positions he described to USCIS simply did not exist. If that’s not fraud then the word is meaningless.
- whoisjuan 8y agoYou clearly didn't read the article because this guy did absolutely all the things that constitute a fraud, regardless if it has to do with a visa or not. Creating fake jobs, falsifying documents, charging money to the people that were applying for visas, "parking" those visas with no paid wages and using those unpaid visa beneficiaries to undercut other firms... I don't think there's a circumstance in any country in which those actions wouldn't be labeled as "fraud".
- scarejunba 8y agoI think he believes the law is unjust.
- lozenge 8y agoEven if the law is unjust, breaking it is not necessarily just. It still depends on the circumstances. In this case he charged fees and almost certainly lied to the immigrant about their chances of getting a job.
- Nullabillity 8y agoSo.. the same as the USCIS itself?
- BIackSwan 8y agoI am only commenting about the abuse of the h1b system as mentioned in the link. This not about any of the other actions of “protectionist policy” that you mention. You cannot do fake job postings in order to bench someone and call it “work around” in order to not call it a fraud and put it in a good light. The overall issue of h1b visa and foreign worker policy is highly nuanced and beyond what can be discussed in HN comments. To reiterate- I am in support of easier migration of skilled workers than what is done today. But abuse of it (and a stark case at that) is something that harms other skilled workers looking to come in a legit way.
- fzeroracer 8y agoA pure free market for H-1Bs would be an absolute disaster considering how much leverage a corporation has over them, unless you would also like to advocate for curbing our immigration laws/enforcement in order to prevent companies threatening people with deportation. And that said, you should really read the article before you make claims like that considering he's a prime example of how far someone would go to abuse employees without recourse.
- tzhenghao 8y agoJust reading this makes me pissed off. I have hardworking friends who get good jobs (some FAANG and some in finance) but ultimately had to pack their bags and go home because they were “unlucky” several times in the h1b lottery system, and here we have people committing fraud. Bad actors like these then hurt even existing H1B holders in the context of more strict vetting processes for extensions etc., thus slowing USCIS down and grinding the whole system to a halt. I doubt this is all of it. There’s definitely more in hiding.
- ntsplnkv2 8y agoThere has been "demand" for years in largely the same areas. How about we invest and offer scholarship in these areas of need instead so 5 years down we don't need to bring in indentured servants. Or offer permanent citizenship.
- em3rgent0rdr 8y agoThe laws criminalizing immigration need to repealed. Then there wouldn't be such a market incentivizing people to engage in fraud simply to bring people together.
- speedplane 8y agoThis is a ridiculous argument. Every law prohibiting or encouraging a behavior has the potential to create an illicit market. the fact that such a black market could exist is a pretty poor excuse to disregard it.
- em3rgent0rdr 8y ago* "simply to bring people together"
- speedplane 8y agoWhat are you trying to say exactly?
- osrec 8y agoBefore I clicked on the link, I suspected it would be an Indian. I've dealt with a few such "recruiters" in London as well. Slimy individuals preying on those trying to secure a better future.
- choot 8y agoSo you assume all such frauds are committed by Indians. Do you also assume all bank and atm robberies are done by Romanians? And all credit card skeaming by Russians. All money laundering by Brits and all brothels by Dutch. I don't see any point of making such broad generalisation about a particular ethinicity.
- osrec 8y agoIt's not that I assume, it's just that it's becoming a common, observable pattern across a variety of industries, from IT staff, to general helpers round the house. I'm Indian too, by the way, so it pains me to say it, but the stereotype of an Indian committing immigration fraud overseas is establishing itself rather well.
- cbg0 8y agoWell there's more than a billion indians, so the bad apples do tend to stand out more, even though statistically there might be just as many slimy <insert other nationality here>.
- osrec 8y agoI think you're missing the point. The sheer volume of people, our cutthroat, materialistic culture, poverty and intrinsic desire of hopefuls to "escape" to a rosier place makes the Indian population perfect for this kind of fraud. And of course, there are plenty of well-off NRI Indians willing to sell them the dream of moving to the west. Even our pop stars were at it: https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-india-43428622 https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-as...
- mavelikara 8y agoEvery time discussion about H-1B comes up here, many people chime in on the potential abuses from large international outsourcers like Infosys, Wipro, Cognizant, IBM, Accenture etc. But IME, the most egregious abuses come from small American staffing companies as those run by the accused here. The absolute number of H-1B applications they file and get are smaller, but they occupy the long tail of the distribution. Also, the same fraudulent operators run multiple such companies. The accused in this case - Kishore Kumar Kavuru - ran four such companies. In the other case mentioned in the article the accused - Pradyumna Kumar Samal - two such companies. I hope these two cases don't go the way of the one against Raju Kosuri. Kosuri, a naturalized American citizen, plead guilty [1] to serious charges of immigration fraud. But due to some technicality in the prosecution's case, Kosuri was handed down a mere 28 months to serve, and is scheduled to be deported to India [2]. Off-topic question: India does not accept dual citizenship. So when the Kosuris became naturalized citizens, they must have given up their India citizenship. Given that, why should India accept them back after they were deemed criminals in their adopted country? What is the legality around revoking naturalized US citizenship? [1]: https://www.scribd.com/document/322254486/Kosuri-Plea https://www.scribd.com/document/322254486/Kosuri-Plea [2]: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2017/12/24/indian-national-to-be-deported-after-profiting-20m-by-fraudulently-importing-h-1b-foreign-workers/ https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2017/12/24/indian-nationa...
- beerlord 8y agoAnd in all of the cases, they are Indians committing fraud to assist the immigration of other Indians. Perhaps the simplest solution is to disallow Indian nationals from applying for H1B completely? I think its generally problematic if one class of visa comes to be dominated by a single nationality. It does not result in diversity in the host country, for starters. I think people would be more welcoming of the H1B visa (and expanding it, or offering more rights for those on it) if it wasn't completely dominated by Indian men. Perhaps rules limiting any one country to a maximum of 10% of the visa quota, and ensuring the intake is at least 60% female would assist public perceptions?
- jobigoud 8y ago
- rdl 8y agoThe obvious solution (making h1b non-transferable across employers again, without even the 30 day window) probably causes more harm than benefit here. I assume someone could abusively misuse h1b in the traditional Wipro/Infosys way anyway, by doing staffing companies. His fraud was just more capital efficient but not that fundamentally different. It is probably unpopular, but I think h1b should be ended. Genuine short term needs should be covered through something like L1, and aside from specific categories of non-immigrant visa like medical or educational, we should just expand immigrant visas on a Canadian/NZ style merit/points system. This would be less discriminatory against people from big countries (China and India specifically), avoid some of the abuse possibilities, and be better for employees/immigrants and their families. The only losers would be body shops and large employers who benefit today from a limited form of indenture.
- beerlord 8y agoAny replacement visa needs to be like the diversity lottery (or the Olympics) by rewarding applicants from smaller countries. The migrant intake shouldn't be dominated completely by India and China - their sheer size gives them an advantage, as naturalized Indian and Chinese employers will then just go on to hire their own countrymen. For example, 76% of H1B visas went to Indians. Having multiple, smaller groups of people inside the USA also assists integration - instead of being able to fall back on a parallel society, migrants will be forced to integrate and learn English. Plus, just like the Olympics, diversity makes things interesting. Having (qualified) people from Belgium, Poland, Kenya, Thailand, Japan, Colombia, Mongolia (for example) is more interesting than just India, India, India, China, China, China.... A broader pool of migrants also helps US businesses expand worldwide. Finally, the schemes should also include a minimum 55% quota of women, from each country. This ensures that any visa scheme does not become completely dominated by men, and addresses past imbalances.
- boomboomsubban 8y agoI don't see why this is particularly newsworthy. "Man accused of small amount of fraud" is barely a headline in other areas, why is this instance such a major deal?
- saagarjha 8y agoIs fraudulently allowing 600 people to enter the United States a “small amount of fraud”?
- nonamechicken 8y agoI didn't see it mentioned anywhere that he brought people from India. Usually, these kind of scams involve students who came to US to study. So they were already in the country. They will be forced to leave in 18 months unless they get an h1b, so they have to resort to such practices.
- boomboomsubban 8y agoYes? It works our to like five people a month, hardly a meaningful amount given the number of H-1B visas over that period.
- vijaybritto 8y agoEven before clicking the link I thought it would be an Indian guy. Cause the headline sounded odd! I don't know why only Indians are doing this shit predominantly. This will lead to other Indians getting abused given how negative and fake news spreads today!
- GordonS 8y agoIsn't it just that India is the biggest outsourcing country?
- nonamechicken 8y ago>I don't know why only Indians are doing this shit predominantly. Because of a huge number of Indian students, especially from one particular state. US is marketed as an utopia to them, so they all line up to study in US thinking they will get a job as soon as they complete their studies. Reality is surviving on h1b in US is hard. The students have less than 18 months to get an h1b or packup and leave. The Indians who do these scams know how desperate the students are. This is the only chance they have to recoup their educational expenses and show that US experience in their resume and work in US for couple of years at least. The scammers exploit this situation of students. I think it will soon come to an end with the current administration finally taking action to end this practice. That means students will have less visas and the number of students will come down.
- jopsen 8y agoFor a "human trafficking" operation 600 people over a decade seems like a fairly small scale operation.. In terms of harm, these workers are clearly in demand, so apart from being unfair to other staffing agencies and H1B applicants, this really doesn't do much harm.. H1B is a pretty broken concept to begin with.. I was H1B for 4 years before I decided Trump-land wasn't a good place to set roots. If you have demand for tech workers and tech workers willing to move. I think most countries and cities would move heaven and Earth to make things work out. Everybody wants to be silicon valley :) (I don't see why SV has to have the problems it has, they seem fixable)
- GordonS 8y ago> In terms of harm, these workers are clearly in demand Yes, foreign workers who are willing to work for less than local market rates are in big demand. Foreign workers are also very likely to move a big chunk of their wages back to their families every month. So in terms of harm, there are these at least: - artificially pushing down local market rates - money paid doesn't stay in the local economy
- nonamechicken 8y agoThere are a huge number of American companies selling products in India. They also harm the local economy including in job creation. Brain dead outsourcing jobs created by American companies shouldn't really be considered as value addition to India in long term.
- jopsen 8y ago> money paid doesn't stay in the local economy If the money was all invested in the local real estate marked you'd also complain :) > artificially pushing down local market rates In a market where the median salary is 130k, maybe it's good for the economy -- more than it hurts people.
- GordonS 8y agoMy comment wasn't with reference to the Bay area.
- zaru27 8y agoThis program needs to end. H1B a bandaid over our complete failure to provide a modern education and bring young people into STEM, while dually deflating middle class wages for the tech oligarchs across the industry for several decades. And, ironically, the Democrats, who should supposedly be protecting the middle class, have a blood pact with the SV elite.
- spiderPig 8y agoOh please, you're just parroting Steve Bannon's pseduo-intellectual propaganda. Pull out this program and most of the Big-N companies would simply move these jobs overseas. I would go so far to say that lumping them with illegal immigration is doing a dis-service to them considering how much they contribute to the economy. Most of them have built core components of what you use today. Why wouldn't you want them contributing to society here and buying houses? That being said, sure, fraud happens and we need to come up with solutions to curtail that. Not knee-jerk reactions based on political biases.
- zaru27 8y agoFirst of all, the tech industry isn’t even part of Steve bannon’s platform- they’re only referring to unskilled labor from what I’ve seen - we’re not on their radar. Second, your casual brushing aside of an fair ideology conveys who the pseudo intellectual is. Third, we have been discussing wage collusion in the tech industry for the past decade- and we have direct evidence which you should research and educate yourself on. I have no beef with anybody who has immigrated here and it’s disgusting you would make that assumption. I think this country should adopt a more protectionist stance. People hiring en masse overseas are more often than not benefiting themselves to the detriment of society- unfortunately Washington is asleep at the wheel.
- spiderPig 8y agoTech industry is not part of Bannon's platform? https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/2/14472404/steve-bannon-legal-immigration-problem https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/2/14472404/st... The terms "tech oligarchs" have been part of his verbal repertoire throughout the campaign.
- readhn 8y agoisnt this simply a problem with the application process? Simple verification that the job/employer exist would close this “loop hole”, no?
- jeswin 8y agoThis man is a symptom of a wider problem. Once when I visited Hyderabad, I was surprised by the staggering number of IT institutes in the city (around Ameerpet). There's just no way so many people can find a job, but somehow they do! Fraudulent claims in resumes and job applications are very common - and HR folks often advise interviewers to verify claims in depth. IT jobs fraud is an industry. Here's a picture from Ameerpet which shows the sheer scale of the IT training market there: https://imgur.com/a/AUogLtu https://imgur.com/a/AUogLtu
- sizzle 8y agoThat image your linked is unbelievable, never seen anything like it. Thanks for sharing.
- projectramo 8y agoH1B visas are a hot topic here, and always lead to heated voting. I will just point out one thing: 1. How many immigrants come (total number per year) 2. How they are selected (merit or family) 3. Where they come from (the wisdom of country caps) Are three separate issues that need not be conflated. People tend to give a mixed solution based on their personal experience.
- sheeshkebab 8y agoH1b needs to end - it’s modern version of serfdom. If country has shortage of critical skilled workers - bring them in permanently, based on a system similar to what Canada has.
- dennisgorelik 8y agoSo the solution then is to remove permanent immigration quotas for skilled employees, right? If there is no quota and no insanely long waiting periods for getting a green card -- H1b will become mostly irrelevant.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- wild_preference 8y agoMy only experience with H1b was when I worked at Amazon. Lots of pressure to come in on the weekend. I certainly wasn't going to sacrifice my weekends. I'd just tell them no. I could work somewhere else. But the H1b guys I worked with from India constantly caved to the guilt. If they were to lose the job, they'd have to pack up their entire life and go back to India to try again. Easy high-skill exploitation.
- chapium 8y agoWhen I work with our offices in India, the teams there are incredibly hard workers. We've had issues with quality control of code, etc now and then however, there are a lot of really top notch programmers pulling hours to meet the goals of an office remote to them. Its honestly incredible. I think there is a different workplace culture in India. Hard work does not always equate to quality work, occasionally some really braindead stuff comes out that someone slogged through. If I saw H1B's coming in on weekends, I think its partly cultural and they might also just be younger and have less weekend commitments in general. On the flip side, if you lose your H1B status you are pretty screwed, so the company has you by the balls and tends to pass you up for promotion.
- 8y ago
- itissid 8y agoThe economic incentives here are a tough nut to crack. Here they are: 1. Most first time H1B Visas are taken up by an employee that are paid(typically) less that the college educated US worker. Pay amortized over the lifetime of this employee is even lower because part of it was in places like India where the PPP is much higher and labor is cheap. 2. You can make a lot of money by staying on the edges of the law. For example body shops/consultants. 3. Try stopping such body shops and IT CoS will cause jobs to disappear forever into India. This is the part that most policy makers gloss over. Sure FAANG could hire US side that but they are minority of H1B applications filed. Possible Changes: 0. Separate all categories from the Quota based Green Card residency filing. This will end the perverse incentive for certain H1B and L1 workers to come to the US for the sole purpose of citizenship. Especially the under the stupid EB1 manager cap. 1. Make it easier for people on H1B categories to study, change jobs and providing for gaps between employment that are reasonable. This will make people less beholden and less exploitable by body shops. 2. Introduce a points based system for Permanent Residence that will award citizenship fairly to everyone based on real effort put in by people to get here. Things like education, language, diversity, age all should count. This will chip away at incentives attached to certain visa types. 3. Completely separate the H1B Visa processing for US college educated from the other pool of H1B workers. Make more granular categories for work visa.
- Kephael 8y agoH-1B visas aren't even given out to people with specialized knowledge, new grads are able to get them.
- anticensor 8y agoThere are O visas for them.
- gnulinux 8y agoNew grads can use F1 visas with OPT.
- IdontRememberIt 8y agoIt should be made more complicated for companies to easily "import" skills that are not so hard to learn. Companies should train their employees for the coming new skills required. This is what Swiss companies were doing when it was impossible to immigrate in Switzerland. And the employee-employer relationship was a lot healthier than today.
- s3nnyy 8y agoCan you elaborate on "Swiss companies were training their employees when it was impossible to immigrate in Switzerland"?
- IdontRememberIt 8y agoBefore entering Schengen, Switzerland was a very closed country for the job market. It was very difficult to get a permit. Switzerland had (has) a major issue: salaries were high compared internationally and there could not import skilled employees. So all the companies/factories had trainings to keep their employees and "transition" them when the technology or business was changing and making their CV obsolete. The companies with the best training/programs were attracting talents. So all companies had to do it. Otherwise they would not attract talents. It already starts with apprenticeship. Did you know that you could start a top career in a top Swiss bank with an apprenticeship at 16 yo? Some companies are still like this. But most of campanies prefer now to simply fire and hire an already baked employee; but they keep training programms made by HR more for marketing/communication purposes than a real culture.
- s3nnyy 8y agoSchengen is solely about movement of tourists; it has nothing to do with work authorization. Germany, Switzerland and other places share the development that 40yrs ago a top career in a top company with was possible with an apprenticeship and without a uni degree.
- lifesucks1 8y agoJust one there are hundreds across the country. They all play the same game identify hot techs and hire people and bring them here and then bench them till work shows up. Trump has accomplished nothing so far.