7 ms·

Feel free to ban anything you want at work. And the people who work there will select for if they want to be a part of it by becoming or remaining employees. (T

by zaroth 8y ago

Feel free to ban anything you want at work. And the people who work there will select for if they want to be a part of it by becoming or remaining employees. (There are, of course, things that are illegal to ban) I personally want to work somewhere who values me as a responsible human being, and expects me to behave like one. The more a workplace feels like they have to micromanage their employees like children, the more I would expect their workplace to be filled with people who act like children. And I personally wouldn’t want to work somewhere like that. Hire intelligent, respectful, ethical, empathetic, mature adults to do interesting work. Fire the ones who don’t live up to it. I expect workplace requirements to be spelled out in terms of expected behavior, expected performance, expected results. Define the outputs. And take responsibility up the chain. IMO the right policy is not to ban alcohol entirely. Rather, if an employee behaves inappropriately the employee is responsible, but if the manager created the environment which lead to the behavior (whether that be approving the purchase of a keg and cheering for a keg stand, or not stopping that engineer from being verbally abusive at the daily stand ups) the manager is also held to account.

Spooky23 8y ago
The positive aspect of banning alcohol consumption is that it's an objective measure. If somebody is a drunken lout pawing his employees, save the victim more exposure by drumming him out for the alcohol. With the possible exception of salespeople entertaining clients, there's no need to drink on duty, and if you do, there is a consequence.
- Benjammer 8y ago
  I don't think the parent comment is at all disagreeing with the existence of any utility in "banning alcohol" here. The gist of what the parent comment is saying, is that, if you have a policy in place to "compensate" for a certain "negative trait," what you are actually doing is inviting _more_ of that trait, because you are signaling that your company will put effort in to help deal with that, which means that someone who needs help monitoring their alcohol consumption would be _more likely_ to work for you, thus accomplishing essentially the opposite of what you wanted. Mature adults who do _not_ need someone else to monitor their alcohol consumption are far more likely to inherently present with the responsible, adult behaviors that you desire. But, a mature adult who can already sufficiently moderate their own alcohol consumption is going to be _less likely_ to want to work at a place where said consumption is heavily, outwardly regulated/enforced, because why would they want to be constantly told something that they have already fully incorporated into their mature, adult habits and personality?
  - mcguire 8y ago
    "Mature adults who do _not_ need someone else to monitor their alcohol consumption are far more likely to inherently present with the responsible, adult behaviors that you desire." That doesn't seem to describe Google's employees. (Or anyone under the age of 30, for that matter, says the little tiny cynic who lives on my shoulder.)
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    Mature adults also don’t sexually harass their colleagues. My priority is to have swift, clear consequences for harassment. If you are drinking at work and in your buzz behave inappropriately, I want you walked out of the building for the alcohol and spare the victim from the more harm. You don’t need to infantalize folks. It’s really simple: if you want to go get drinks, there’s a bar down the road.
- eridius 8y ago
  You don't need to ban alcohol in order to punish someone for being visibly drunken or pawing at employees.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    If you allow drinking at work, what BAC is ok? What exactly is the justification for endorsing drinking at work?
    - piptastic 8y ago
      The amount of alcohol you consume doesn't really matter. It's the behavior that is punishable regardless of whether you were drinking or not.
      - Spooky23 8y ago
        So when your high functioning alcoholic blows a .22 after taking out a telephone pole and hurting another driver, what do you do then? What portion of responsibility will the victims attorney pin on you?
        kjeetgill 8y ago
        Zero. Don't drink and drive; It's the drinkers responsibility. Do you blame the liquor store? The state liquor laws?
        Spooky23 8y ago
        Nope. Serving alcohol or providing a place to drink can make you liable. That’s why you’re usually advised to get a liability policy for weddings and large parties.
    - afandian 8y ago
      Sleep deprivation affects cognitive ability. It affects everyone differently. It is sometimes involuntary, sometimes voluntary. That said, how many hours' sleep the night before a day's work is acceptable?
- briandear 8y ago
  Can we ban nerf guns and adult slides? Good grief, much of Silicon Valley feels like a kindergarten.
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    why does it have to be a ban? isn't it satisfying enough just to look down at your inferiors and bask in how mature you are?
roenxi 8y ago
> I personally want to work somewhere who values me as a responsible human being, and expects me to behave like one. Responsible human beings don't drink alcohol in the workplace. If a person is drawing a salary, they should be presenting to work fit & as prepared as possible to do it. There is no good reason for employees to be drinking at or prior to work. Unless, I suppose, there is some well-replicated study showing that alcohol in low doses increases cognitive function despite all my expectations. Management doesn't have a magic crystal ball to tell truth from falsehood and fact from hearsay - and because of that uncertainty firing people is a far last resort for creating a safe and welcoming workspace. Banning alcohol at work is both prudent and reasonable.
- always_good 8y ago
  I'm not a coding robot that needs to be min/maxed for my productivity output all day at work. I'm certainly not even programming all day at work. So I would not want to work where you're in charge where everything I may want to do (or consume) is judged on its productivity basis. You probably have habits that sacrifice your work performance. There's a good chance, at the very least, you weigh more than you should, work out less than you should, and eat fewer vegetables than you should. You might even have children or plan to have them one day. Yikes! And all of these cost you much more than the morale boosting beer I get to share with my team as is tradition towards the end of a Friday.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  Having a drink in the workplace aftera day of hard work works great for morale.
  - zbentley 8y ago
    > Having a drink in the workplace aftera day of hard work works great for morale. So do many other things. If the only thing that keeps morale acceptable is providing alcohol, then you have a problem either with the people you hire, the work you make them do, or the amount of resources you're willing to expend on morale.
mcguire 8y ago
"(~20% of cases)" Apparently, many of the people Google is hiring are not intelligent, respectful, ethical, empathetic, or mature. The problem is, once you've hired them, firing them requires investigations, proofs, lawsuits, internet drama, and so forth. I'd imagine going after managers would be even more problematic. I'd just as soon work for a place that bans alcohol, including at the unofficial, optional-mandatory social functions. In fact, that pretty well describes every place I've worked.
- maroonblazer 8y ago
  20% of cases where the perp had been drinking. It doesn't necessarily mean they were drinking to excess. Someone who wants to harass another employee doesn't need an excessive amount of alcohol to do so. It seems almost taboo to say this in 2018 but in my experience alcohol, when used by intelligent, respectful, mature adults facilitates healthy bonds that would not be there otherwise and persist long after the effects of the alcohol have worn off.
- sgarman 8y ago
  Is that true in california? I thought it was always at-will and that employers do not need to provide any reasoning.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    There are exceptions to at-will employment public policy. https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2001/01/art1full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2001/01/art1full.pdf (BLS PDF, The employment-at-will doctrine: three major exceptions)
tapanjk 8y ago
> The more a workplace feels like they have to micromanage their employees like children, the more I would expect their workplace to be filled with people who act like children. This is exactly what I always thought until I ended up working at a place that did not ban anything. I had no idea how far some will take this freedom, until I saw it, and then I thought: Wish this place banned a few things.
- skrebbel 8y ago
  Sounds like they should've banned a few people, not a few things.
jiveturkey 8y ago
problem solved

by zaroth 8y ago

Spooky23 8y ago

The positive aspect of banning alcohol consumption is that it's an objective measure. If somebody is a drunken lout pawing his employees, save the victim more exposure by drumming him out for the alcohol. With the possible exception of salespeople entertaining clients, there's no need to drink on duty, and if you do, there is a consequence.

Benjammer 8y ago
I don't think the parent comment is at all disagreeing with the existence of any utility in "banning alcohol" here. The gist of what the parent comment is saying, is that, if you have a policy in place to "compensate" for a certain "negative trait," what you are actually doing is inviting _more_ of that trait, because you are signaling that your company will put effort in to help deal with that, which means that someone who needs help monitoring their alcohol consumption would be _more likely_ to work for you, thus accomplishing essentially the opposite of what you wanted. Mature adults who do _not_ need someone else to monitor their alcohol consumption are far more likely to inherently present with the responsible, adult behaviors that you desire. But, a mature adult who can already sufficiently moderate their own alcohol consumption is going to be _less likely_ to want to work at a place where said consumption is heavily, outwardly regulated/enforced, because why would they want to be constantly told something that they have already fully incorporated into their mature, adult habits and personality?
- mcguire 8y ago
  "Mature adults who do _not_ need someone else to monitor their alcohol consumption are far more likely to inherently present with the responsible, adult behaviors that you desire." That doesn't seem to describe Google's employees. (Or anyone under the age of 30, for that matter, says the little tiny cynic who lives on my shoulder.)
- Spooky23 8y ago
  Mature adults also don’t sexually harass their colleagues. My priority is to have swift, clear consequences for harassment. If you are drinking at work and in your buzz behave inappropriately, I want you walked out of the building for the alcohol and spare the victim from the more harm. You don’t need to infantalize folks. It’s really simple: if you want to go get drinks, there’s a bar down the road.
eridius 8y ago
You don't need to ban alcohol in order to punish someone for being visibly drunken or pawing at employees.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  If you allow drinking at work, what BAC is ok? What exactly is the justification for endorsing drinking at work?
  - piptastic 8y ago
    The amount of alcohol you consume doesn't really matter. It's the behavior that is punishable regardless of whether you were drinking or not.
    - Spooky23 8y ago
      So when your high functioning alcoholic blows a .22 after taking out a telephone pole and hurting another driver, what do you do then? What portion of responsibility will the victims attorney pin on you?
      - kjeetgill 8y ago
        Zero. Don't drink and drive; It's the drinkers responsibility. Do you blame the liquor store? The state liquor laws?
        Spooky23 8y ago
        Nope. Serving alcohol or providing a place to drink can make you liable. That’s why you’re usually advised to get a liability policy for weddings and large parties.
  - afandian 8y ago
    Sleep deprivation affects cognitive ability. It affects everyone differently. It is sometimes involuntary, sometimes voluntary. That said, how many hours' sleep the night before a day's work is acceptable?
briandear 8y ago
Can we ban nerf guns and adult slides? Good grief, much of Silicon Valley feels like a kindergarten.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  why does it have to be a ban? isn't it satisfying enough just to look down at your inferiors and bask in how mature you are?

roenxi 8y ago

> I personally want to work somewhere who values me as a responsible human being, and expects me to behave like one. Responsible human beings don't drink alcohol in the workplace. If a person is drawing a salary, they should be presenting to work fit & as prepared as possible to do it. There is no good reason for employees to be drinking at or prior to work. Unless, I suppose, there is some well-replicated study showing that alcohol in low doses increases cognitive function despite all my expectations. Management doesn't have a magic crystal ball to tell truth from falsehood and fact from hearsay - and because of that uncertainty firing people is a far last resort for creating a safe and welcoming workspace. Banning alcohol at work is both prudent and reasonable.

always_good 8y ago
I'm not a coding robot that needs to be min/maxed for my productivity output all day at work. I'm certainly not even programming all day at work. So I would not want to work where you're in charge where everything I may want to do (or consume) is judged on its productivity basis. You probably have habits that sacrifice your work performance. There's a good chance, at the very least, you weigh more than you should, work out less than you should, and eat fewer vegetables than you should. You might even have children or plan to have them one day. Yikes! And all of these cost you much more than the morale boosting beer I get to share with my team as is tradition towards the end of a Friday.
Aeolun 8y ago
Having a drink in the workplace aftera day of hard work works great for morale.
- zbentley 8y ago
  > Having a drink in the workplace aftera day of hard work works great for morale. So do many other things. If the only thing that keeps morale acceptable is providing alcohol, then you have a problem either with the people you hire, the work you make them do, or the amount of resources you're willing to expend on morale.

mcguire 8y ago

"(~20% of cases)" Apparently, many of the people Google is hiring are not intelligent, respectful, ethical, empathetic, or mature. The problem is, once you've hired them, firing them requires investigations, proofs, lawsuits, internet drama, and so forth. I'd imagine going after managers would be even more problematic. I'd just as soon work for a place that bans alcohol, including at the unofficial, optional-mandatory social functions. In fact, that pretty well describes every place I've worked.

maroonblazer 8y ago
20% of cases where the perp had been drinking. It doesn't necessarily mean they were drinking to excess. Someone who wants to harass another employee doesn't need an excessive amount of alcohol to do so. It seems almost taboo to say this in 2018 but in my experience alcohol, when used by intelligent, respectful, mature adults facilitates healthy bonds that would not be there otherwise and persist long after the effects of the alcohol have worn off.
sgarman 8y ago
Is that true in california? I thought it was always at-will and that employers do not need to provide any reasoning.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  There are exceptions to at-will employment public policy. https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2001/01/art1full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2001/01/art1full.pdf (BLS PDF, The employment-at-will doctrine: three major exceptions)

tapanjk 8y ago

> The more a workplace feels like they have to micromanage their employees like children, the more I would expect their workplace to be filled with people who act like children. This is exactly what I always thought until I ended up working at a place that did not ban anything. I had no idea how far some will take this freedom, until I saw it, and then I thought: Wish this place banned a few things.

skrebbel 8y ago
Sounds like they should've banned a few people, not a few things.

jiveturkey 8y ago

problem solved