9 ms·

All of the commenters saying e-scooters shouldn't be allowed on sidewalks are right. Sidewalks in most densely populated US cities are too narrow and busy to sa

All of the commenters saying e-scooters shouldn't be allowed on sidewalks are right. Sidewalks in most densely populated US cities are too narrow and busy to safely allow a human gliding along at 15 mph within ~2 ft of a doorway where another human may be exiting, or past blind corners. The bigger issue is that e-scooter parking is fundamentally broken right now. Despite being told not to, users still park them in the middle of a pedestrian walkway. Even if the user parks them correctly, they get knocked over or blow over into the walkway. This product is broken until these companies do what Jump did, and INTEGRATE A LOCK INTO THE PRODUCT, and make users lock it to something at the end of their ride. This almost entirely eliminates the problem of blocking a walkway, and also reduces the loss of product to theft, accidental damage, etc. Since they're required by law in California, I'd also like helmets to be integrated into the locking mechanism, but that's a nice-to-have. E-scooter companies: Build locks into your products. It fixes many of your problems.

jaydubs 8y ago
Helmets are no longer required by law in California if the rider is over 18. full text: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2989 http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml...
- romwell 8y ago
  Very good bill! Definitely moving in the right direction. Some thoughts: 1)Helmet laws: I've always found helmet requirements pretty arbitrary: if runners who run at 10-15mph aren't required to wear helmets, why force them onto cyclists and scooter users? Such laws have been known to adversely affect ridership, which, in turn, decreases safety for everyone because drivers don't expect cyclists/scooter users. I've seen a study that found that the net effect is that helmet laws decrease safety. 2)No sidewalk riding: Good. I'd argue that even if bicycles could be OK on sidewalks, e-scooters/e-bikes should not be, because there's no incentive for e-vehicles to go slowly on sidewalks. For cyclists, intermittent slowdowns enforce a low speed, because it takes effort to accelerate. But on an e-scooter, all it takes is a turn of a handle to get to 15mph in a very short span of time. So, while there's a physical cost for cyclists going too fast, there isn't one for e-scooter users.
abawany 8y ago
Agree on the sidewalk clutter - they are starting to turn into a nuisance in Austin downtown. I had to move two, parked side by side, on a sidewalk. My attempt to move them resulted in them squealing, causing me to feel like a thief for just trying to make room on the sidewalk to keep walking.
- wpietri 8y ago
  Agreed. I have never seen an actual scooter owner park badly. It's always a rental scooter company. I object entirely to them just seizing the public sidewalks as the parking lot for their private businesses. And then I object again at the tragedy-of-the-commons effect when scooter renters feel entitled to drop it wherever they're done with it.
  - mikepurvis 8y ago
    Imagine how cyclists have felt for decades every time there's been a discussion about turning the free parking into a bike lane...
    - wpietri 8y ago
      That's a poor comparison. Bike lanes are for public use; the space may change purpose, but it's still public. Companies scattering their privately owned rental gear on public space is a taking of that space.
      - mikepurvis 8y ago
        Oh yeah, bike lanes are definitely for public use! It's the free parking that isn't— that's the one that's private individuals demanding the ongoing right to take up valuable public space by dumping their private property on it for hours at a time.
        wpietri 8y ago
        I'm not sure if this is just a failed attempt to be funny or you really don't get it. An individual using public space individually is what public space is for. People have private picnics in public parks. Public roads mostly carry private cars. Parking spaces are again used by individuals for short durations. But what the scooter and e-bike companies are doing is converting public space into private business use. It would be the equivalent of somebody running a used car lot by taking over a bunch of spaces on one street. Or by a company taking public parking spaces and selling them back to members of the public. (Both of which businesses have attempted to do lately and been smacked down.) Or somebody opening up a restaurant on the sidewalk. (Which can be done legally by a permitted food truck or food cart, but not by anybody who just gets the urge.)
wpietri 8y ago
Agreed 100% on the sidewalk-riding. The other day I was outside a restaurant waiting for a table. I moved back one step to let some people by and felt something brush my coat. It was some idiot riding one of those powered rental scooters downhill. 15 MPH at least, and given that it was downhill, maybe more. Two steps back and I would have been in the emergency room.
- m4x 8y ago
  You are allowed to call people out for riding dangerously. They might not appreciate it at the time, but as long as you aren't aggressively rude they will probably ride more slowly the next time they get on a scooter. Eventually personal transport will be normal and everybody will know how and where to use it appropriately, but it will take a bit of time and practice to get to that point.
  - wpietri 8y ago
    Tell me, step by step, how you think I will politely but effectively call out somebody going by me at 15-20 mph. Use diagrams if you need.
    - cycrutchfield 8y ago
      Use your voice
      - wpietri 8y ago
        Having just recently experienced this, at 15-20 mph he was well out of easy speech range before I fully realized what had happened, let alone had composed a reasonably polite thing to say. 20 mph is 30 feet per second, and this yahoo brushed my back as I was talking to someone. 5 seconds to turn, understand, and start talking isn't unreasonable. If you can politely get the attention of somebody 150 feet away and receding rapidly using your voice, I'd sure like to see it.
m4x 8y ago
Scooters seem unnecessary in densely populated cities. Most high-density areas have good public transport within a few minutes walk of your destination, and the footpaths are too busy to ride a scooter on anyway. They are much more useful in medium-density cities and suburbs where the roads and footpaths are less busy and public transport is not as effective. I love using my scooter for commuting and errands in my low-density city, but I can't imagine riding it through a busy CBD - not on the road or the footpath. And yet that seems to be where most of these scooter rental companies are deploying. It seems crazy.
- mikepurvis 8y ago
  "Cars seem unnecessary in densely populated cities. Most high-density areas have good public transport within a few minutes walk of your destination, and the roads are too busy to drive a car on anyway." FTFY
  - m4x 8y ago
    Cars address a different set of requirements. You use one when you need to transport many people, heavy cargo, tools, etc. A scooter does not solve any of those problems. A scooter does allow a single person and their possessions to travel at faster than walking pace without getting sweaty. In the CBD that is not necessary, since public transport works so well. In the suburbs a scooter is more effective.
    - mikepurvis 8y ago
      Sure, but look at your typical freeway rush hour traffic jam— how many of those vehicles really have multiple people or heavy cargo? The point is that for short commutes and as a last mile solution to extend the coverage of public transit, scooters are amazing. And a rental system means they can stay downtown instead of needing to take up space both ways on the mass transit vehicle.
      - m4x 8y ago
        > Sure, but look at your typical freeway rush hour traffic jam - how many of those vehicles really have multiple people or heavy cargo? I'm not sure how that's relevant. You edited my comment to try and make it apply to cars, but it does not - cars are necessary both in the CBD and out for instances where you need to transport cargo etc, while scooters are less necessary in the CBD if you can use good public transport instead. The fact that many people use cars when they aren't necessary is not relevant, other than to note that there's a lot of potential to reduce traffic by replacing single-occupant cars with personal transport. And I'm not claiming that scooters or scooter rentals are bad - I love my scooter and see scooter rental companies as a big part of reducing the number of cars on the road. But why do they insist on deploying in areas where scooters are not wanted? Why not focus on the areas where they are most practical?
edaemon 8y ago
I think a better, albeit more difficult and expensive solution, would be to implement space for scooters and things like them. In the US we only have two spaces: the sidewalk and the street. Adding a third space for bikes, scooters, and other small personal vehicles would go a long way to promote safety and efficiency.
- IshKebab 8y ago
  Yeah! A lane for bikes! Why has nobody thought of that?
  - edaemon 8y ago
    Bike lanes aren't great, nor are they a separate space -- they're in the street.
    - quantum_magpie 8y ago
      Not proper ones. Real bike lanes in bike-able cities have a small curb separating them from the street and then another one to separate from the sidewalk.
      - edaemon 8y ago
        Agreed, and those are essentially what I'm advocating for, but the vast majority of bike lanes aren't like that. I live in Portland, the most bike-friendly city in the US, and we have very few of them. I would also say they aren't really bike "lanes" -- they're not a lane in the street. The Dutch call them "cycle tracks" which seems more fitting.
        matthewmacleod 8y ago
        the most bike-friendly city in the US Okay, but… low bar and all that.
      - sparky_ 8y ago
conanbatt 8y ago
Easy, allow scotters to park on the street like cars, problem solved for everyone.
BurningFrog 8y ago
The fact that infrastructure lags behind scooter reality can be solved either by (1) upgrading infrastructure or (2) banning scooters. I hope for (1) but expect (2).
ehnto 8y ago
Sidewalks being too narrow is an issue of prioritization. Cities have optimized for car traffic in many locations, and everyone else has to take the sliver of concrete they were graciously given next to the cars with one or two people in them each. You may think, but we can't make it wider else the cars don't fit. Absolutely. So don't let them there at all. Flank every block with a walking/slow bicycle/scooter/board plaza. City centers are for people doing things, so we should prioritize foot traffic, because if you are in a car you are merely coming to or moving through the city. You are not the primary use case of the city center. It evolved this way over time but that doesn't mean it was the right choice to let cars flow through city centers, and we can change it back.
notSupplied 8y ago
Bike lanes in the US are incredibly unsafe for bikers and scooters, and accidents easily result in death of the biker/scooter. Scooters and pedestrians sharing a sidewalk is also unsafe, but accidents are far less lethal. The problem is that bikes/scooters are adding a third distinct speed fundamentally incompatible with the existing two, and that takes up a lot of space costs a lot of allocative inefficiencies (what if there are lots of cars and pedestrians, but no bikes/scooters at this moment?). There's no easily solution but if we're going to ask scooters to share space, at least choose the one that is less fatal, as annoying at it is for pedestrians.

jaydubs 8y ago

Helmets are no longer required by law in California if the rider is over 18. full text: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2989 http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml...

romwell 8y ago
Very good bill! Definitely moving in the right direction. Some thoughts: 1)Helmet laws: I've always found helmet requirements pretty arbitrary: if runners who run at 10-15mph aren't required to wear helmets, why force them onto cyclists and scooter users? Such laws have been known to adversely affect ridership, which, in turn, decreases safety for everyone because drivers don't expect cyclists/scooter users. I've seen a study that found that the net effect is that helmet laws decrease safety. 2)No sidewalk riding: Good. I'd argue that even if bicycles could be OK on sidewalks, e-scooters/e-bikes should not be, because there's no incentive for e-vehicles to go slowly on sidewalks. For cyclists, intermittent slowdowns enforce a low speed, because it takes effort to accelerate. But on an e-scooter, all it takes is a turn of a handle to get to 15mph in a very short span of time. So, while there's a physical cost for cyclists going too fast, there isn't one for e-scooter users.

abawany 8y ago

Agree on the sidewalk clutter - they are starting to turn into a nuisance in Austin downtown. I had to move two, parked side by side, on a sidewalk. My attempt to move them resulted in them squealing, causing me to feel like a thief for just trying to make room on the sidewalk to keep walking.

wpietri 8y ago
Agreed. I have never seen an actual scooter owner park badly. It's always a rental scooter company. I object entirely to them just seizing the public sidewalks as the parking lot for their private businesses. And then I object again at the tragedy-of-the-commons effect when scooter renters feel entitled to drop it wherever they're done with it.
- mikepurvis 8y ago
  Imagine how cyclists have felt for decades every time there's been a discussion about turning the free parking into a bike lane...
  - wpietri 8y ago
    That's a poor comparison. Bike lanes are for public use; the space may change purpose, but it's still public. Companies scattering their privately owned rental gear on public space is a taking of that space.
    - mikepurvis 8y ago
      Oh yeah, bike lanes are definitely for public use! It's the free parking that isn't— that's the one that's private individuals demanding the ongoing right to take up valuable public space by dumping their private property on it for hours at a time.
      - wpietri 8y ago
        I'm not sure if this is just a failed attempt to be funny or you really don't get it. An individual using public space individually is what public space is for. People have private picnics in public parks. Public roads mostly carry private cars. Parking spaces are again used by individuals for short durations. But what the scooter and e-bike companies are doing is converting public space into private business use. It would be the equivalent of somebody running a used car lot by taking over a bunch of spaces on one street. Or by a company taking public parking spaces and selling them back to members of the public. (Both of which businesses have attempted to do lately and been smacked down.) Or somebody opening up a restaurant on the sidewalk. (Which can be done legally by a permitted food truck or food cart, but not by anybody who just gets the urge.)

wpietri 8y ago

Agreed 100% on the sidewalk-riding. The other day I was outside a restaurant waiting for a table. I moved back one step to let some people by and felt something brush my coat. It was some idiot riding one of those powered rental scooters downhill. 15 MPH at least, and given that it was downhill, maybe more. Two steps back and I would have been in the emergency room.

m4x 8y ago
You are allowed to call people out for riding dangerously. They might not appreciate it at the time, but as long as you aren't aggressively rude they will probably ride more slowly the next time they get on a scooter. Eventually personal transport will be normal and everybody will know how and where to use it appropriately, but it will take a bit of time and practice to get to that point.
- wpietri 8y ago
  Tell me, step by step, how you think I will politely but effectively call out somebody going by me at 15-20 mph. Use diagrams if you need.
  - cycrutchfield 8y ago
    Use your voice
    - wpietri 8y ago
      Having just recently experienced this, at 15-20 mph he was well out of easy speech range before I fully realized what had happened, let alone had composed a reasonably polite thing to say. 20 mph is 30 feet per second, and this yahoo brushed my back as I was talking to someone. 5 seconds to turn, understand, and start talking isn't unreasonable. If you can politely get the attention of somebody 150 feet away and receding rapidly using your voice, I'd sure like to see it.

m4x 8y ago

Scooters seem unnecessary in densely populated cities. Most high-density areas have good public transport within a few minutes walk of your destination, and the footpaths are too busy to ride a scooter on anyway. They are much more useful in medium-density cities and suburbs where the roads and footpaths are less busy and public transport is not as effective. I love using my scooter for commuting and errands in my low-density city, but I can't imagine riding it through a busy CBD - not on the road or the footpath. And yet that seems to be where most of these scooter rental companies are deploying. It seems crazy.

mikepurvis 8y ago
"Cars seem unnecessary in densely populated cities. Most high-density areas have good public transport within a few minutes walk of your destination, and the roads are too busy to drive a car on anyway." FTFY
- m4x 8y ago
  Cars address a different set of requirements. You use one when you need to transport many people, heavy cargo, tools, etc. A scooter does not solve any of those problems. A scooter does allow a single person and their possessions to travel at faster than walking pace without getting sweaty. In the CBD that is not necessary, since public transport works so well. In the suburbs a scooter is more effective.
  - mikepurvis 8y ago
    Sure, but look at your typical freeway rush hour traffic jam— how many of those vehicles really have multiple people or heavy cargo? The point is that for short commutes and as a last mile solution to extend the coverage of public transit, scooters are amazing. And a rental system means they can stay downtown instead of needing to take up space both ways on the mass transit vehicle.
    - m4x 8y ago
      > Sure, but look at your typical freeway rush hour traffic jam - how many of those vehicles really have multiple people or heavy cargo? I'm not sure how that's relevant. You edited my comment to try and make it apply to cars, but it does not - cars are necessary both in the CBD and out for instances where you need to transport cargo etc, while scooters are less necessary in the CBD if you can use good public transport instead. The fact that many people use cars when they aren't necessary is not relevant, other than to note that there's a lot of potential to reduce traffic by replacing single-occupant cars with personal transport. And I'm not claiming that scooters or scooter rentals are bad - I love my scooter and see scooter rental companies as a big part of reducing the number of cars on the road. But why do they insist on deploying in areas where scooters are not wanted? Why not focus on the areas where they are most practical?

edaemon 8y ago

I think a better, albeit more difficult and expensive solution, would be to implement space for scooters and things like them. In the US we only have two spaces: the sidewalk and the street. Adding a third space for bikes, scooters, and other small personal vehicles would go a long way to promote safety and efficiency.

IshKebab 8y ago
Yeah! A lane for bikes! Why has nobody thought of that?
- edaemon 8y ago
  Bike lanes aren't great, nor are they a separate space -- they're in the street.
  - quantum_magpie 8y ago
    Not proper ones. Real bike lanes in bike-able cities have a small curb separating them from the street and then another one to separate from the sidewalk.
    - edaemon 8y ago
      Agreed, and those are essentially what I'm advocating for, but the vast majority of bike lanes aren't like that. I live in Portland, the most bike-friendly city in the US, and we have very few of them. I would also say they aren't really bike "lanes" -- they're not a lane in the street. The Dutch call them "cycle tracks" which seems more fitting.
      - matthewmacleod 8y ago
        the most bike-friendly city in the US Okay, but… low bar and all that.
    - sparky_ 8y ago

conanbatt 8y ago

Easy, allow scotters to park on the street like cars, problem solved for everyone.

BurningFrog 8y ago

The fact that infrastructure lags behind scooter reality can be solved either by (1) upgrading infrastructure or (2) banning scooters. I hope for (1) but expect (2).

ehnto 8y ago

Sidewalks being too narrow is an issue of prioritization. Cities have optimized for car traffic in many locations, and everyone else has to take the sliver of concrete they were graciously given next to the cars with one or two people in them each. You may think, but we can't make it wider else the cars don't fit. Absolutely. So don't let them there at all. Flank every block with a walking/slow bicycle/scooter/board plaza. City centers are for people doing things, so we should prioritize foot traffic, because if you are in a car you are merely coming to or moving through the city. You are not the primary use case of the city center. It evolved this way over time but that doesn't mean it was the right choice to let cars flow through city centers, and we can change it back.

notSupplied 8y ago

Bike lanes in the US are incredibly unsafe for bikers and scooters, and accidents easily result in death of the biker/scooter. Scooters and pedestrians sharing a sidewalk is also unsafe, but accidents are far less lethal. The problem is that bikes/scooters are adding a third distinct speed fundamentally incompatible with the existing two, and that takes up a lot of space costs a lot of allocative inefficiencies (what if there are lots of cars and pedestrians, but no bikes/scooters at this moment?). There's no easily solution but if we're going to ask scooters to share space, at least choose the one that is less fatal, as annoying at it is for pedestrians.