9 ms·

One thing I always thought fascinating about Gates was his candid relationship with feces. mindfuplay’s comment reminded me of the famous glass of shit water G

One thing I always thought fascinating about Gates was his candid relationship with feces. mindfuplay’s comment reminded me of the famous glass of shit water Gates drank from his Omniprocessor project [0]. But within that 2015 article, Gates mentions a long term plan for seweage and shit[1]: >If we can develop safe, affordable ways to get rid of human waste, we can prevent many of those deaths and help more children grow up healthy. >Western toilets aren’t the answer, because they require a massive infrastructure of sewer lines and treatment plants that just isn’t feasible in many poor countries. He also mentions he wrote about toilets before in a 2012 article titled “Reflections on the Reinventing the Toilet Challenge.”[2] Digging deeper into that article brought me to a PDF from the Gates Foundation outlining grants from their 2011 program: “Reinvent the Toilet Challenge” [3] ———— [0]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVzppWSIFU0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVzppWSIFU0 [1]:https://www.gatesnotes.com/Development/Omniprocessor-From-Poop-to-Potable https://www.gatesnotes.com/Development/Omniprocessor-From-Po... [2]:https://www.gatesnotes.com/Development/Reflections-on-the-Reinvent-the-Toilet-Challenge https://www.gatesnotes.com/Development/Reflections-on-the-Re... [3]:https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/Documents/wsh-reinvent-the-toilet-challenge.pdf https://docs.gatesfoundation.org/Documents/wsh-reinvent-the-...

nradov 8y ago
Western toilets seem to work reasonably well with septic tanks in rural areas. Those don't involve sewer lines or treatment plants.
- aerophilic 8y ago
  The issue comes down to cost. As he mentions in the article, the goal is to get to 5 cents a day. Just a basic calculation, a “standard” septic system costs between $1500-4000 to install, and lasts roughly 25 years. Just doing the math on the low end costs brings you to about $0.16 cents a day, 3X the goal Bill Gates is advocating. Note: this isn’t even taking into account the cost of the toilet itself or any plumbing needed.
  - gnarbarian 8y ago
    Really all you'd need to do to drastically improve things is get them to simply dig a hole for an outhouse instead of the rampant open defecation seen in India and some parts of Africa. We can solve the more complex and exponentially expensive problems of water treatment later. Digging a deep hole gets rid of rampant cholera and incidental exposure. Basically you've got to learn to crawl before you can run a 10k. edit: You can get someone who is completely illiterate and cut off from civilization to understand the concept of digging a hole for the shit to go in. This has the added benefit of not requiring advanced manufacturing technology or materials. they just have to dig a hole and move the outhouse top over to the new hole when the old one gets full. This makes them self reliant.
    - m_mueller 8y ago
      "really all they need to figure out first is to talk to each other before we build mobile cell towers for them" innovations drive change drive more innovation. I recommend Hans Rosling's talks. There is no such thing as the "Third World" anymore, they're all on various development trajectories. Don't think e.g. Somalia is typical for Africa.
      - gnarbarian 8y ago
        And what I'm saying is a outhouse /is/ a huge innovation to many places in Western Africa and India. It's largely a cultural problem like rampant littering or pollution. One guy digging an outhouse and shitting in it won't make any more difference than a single person recycling. But if enough people do it they will see a huge improvement in public health and infant mortality.
        m_mueller 8y ago
        I'd argue that going from shitting in the woods to a well engineered and cheap toilet is a much more attractive step for most people than having them dig outhouses. It's like with the washing mashines - once electrification is there it's one of the first purchases since it's such a quality of life improvement, and this has happened for a majority of the world's population.
- odonnellryan 8y ago
  Where do you think the poop goes when it gets pumped out? In the sailing community more and more people are using composting toilets: https://farmingmybackyard.com/diy-composting-toilet/ https://farmingmybackyard.com/diy-composting-toilet/ As long as it is disposed of safely (properly composted), the cost here is the composting material.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    Most properly sized and installed septic tanks do not ever need to be pumped out. They compost on their own and the excess water seeps out underground.
    - asteli 8y ago
      this was contrary to my city-dweller's understanding, so i did some quick wiki-reading and it seems like the reality is somewhere between you and GP's statement? i.e. they do biodegrade waste via anaerobic bacteria, but non-degradable sludge has to get pumped out every few years.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        >every few years Every few decades for a properly sized and properly functioning system.
        camhenlin 8y ago
        Septic tank owner here. I own a single family home, maybe larger setups are different. The recommendation from the installer is that it is pumped and inspected every 3-4 years.
        dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        > The recommendation from the installer is that it is pumped and inspected every 3-4 years. That sounds about right if the goal is to keep a system that's not properly functioning (not enough microbes to break down solids) from filling up to the point of causing problems. You won't go wrong if you follow that advice but depending on what goes into your septic (do you have a garbage disposal, do you do laundry with bleach, number of people in household, etc) you may be able to go an order of magnitude longer. Recommending a system be pumped every 3-4yr is like a 3k oil change, it's excessive in the overwhelming majority of use cases but it will make more money for whoever does the work and not cause a system to fail in a way that comes back to bite whoever installed it.
- smileysteve 8y ago
  They do when they're kept up and in good condition. When there is abundant fresh water. But when they're not kept up. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/05/hookworm-lowndes-county-alabama-water-waste-treatment-poverty https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/05/hookworm-low...
- keypress 8y ago
  The silly thing is, that in it's very basic form, if you divide liquid and solid wastes at the point of exit, solid waste composts easily and readily, with some carbon additives and air. It is very low tech. Not so good in flood prone areas (without additional acre), and one has to be environmentally aware to say the least. But education is a winner here. I'm tied into a shitty contract with a plant owner that is operating illegally. And I've looked at alternatives, but the simplest really is just a bucket that is carried out to the garden. Posh compost toilets are just buckets in chambers that are well ventilated. If you have the space, you can incorporate the chambers into the house and preferably have some ability to rotate. Otherwise it's a case of emptying in a rodent proof heap. You can always compost twice. At least you can then use the waste. Rather than having to pump out sludge that may contain other household contaminants.
killjoywashere 8y ago
> because they require a massive infrastructure of sewer lines and treatment plants How do you think economies grow? Job creation at this scale has to be funded out of tax receipts and bonds. The problem is managing the corruption (note: one must assume there are corrupt actors. The trick is managing them).
- jniedrauer 8y ago
  "Job creation" by itself isn't a very noble goal. Creating hamster wheels for humans to run on is comically cruel and pointless.
  - tormeh 8y ago
    Life is a hamster wheel for humans. But, yes, it's a dumb idea.
  - gnode 8y ago
    Fundamentally I agree with this, it's very inefficient and wasteful of resources, although I sometimes wonder whether it's the only practical way to provide welfare in places where politics / prevalent ideology oppose direct social policies.
    - mamon 8y ago
      It can also be argued that charities providing all those third world country with basic supplies, like food, clothes or drugs, actually ruin their economies. It's simply impossible for local producers of said goods to compete on price with charity organization that gives those away for free. If a corporation would try to do that in US, it would be called price dumping and trigger antimonopoly lawsuit against them, but somehow, when it's done to poor African countries we consider it OK, and even expect them to be gratefull for it. EDIT: I think that China does much better job helping them by making actual investments in their economies, building railroads, factories, etc. You might question their intentions, but you cannot question the results.
  - killjoywashere 8y ago
godelmachine 8y ago
If you watch the video properly you will see that he did not drink the water
- adwn 8y ago
  > * If you watch the video properly you will see that he did not drink the water* Then what's he doing at 1:52? Although granted, the Janicki Omniprocessor website says that it doesn't quite produce drinking water quality.
  - godelmachine 8y ago
    I don't see him gulping the water down. As a matter of fact, the water barely touched his lips.
Fomite 8y ago
> One thing I always thought fascinating about Gates was his candid relationship with feces. You pretty much can't be in public health, especially not developing world public health, without developing a preoccupation with poo.
- ethbro 8y ago
  A true engineer follows problems to solutions. Gates is up front about this. What kills the most people? Of those things, which can be realistically improved?
baybal2 8y ago
>>Western toilets aren’t the answer, because they require a massive infrastructure of sewer lines and treatment plants that just isn’t feasible in many poor countries. Then build it! No magic tricks there. I think, this is the most infuriating trait I see in all Silicon Valley "sophisticated person" types.
- blowski 8y ago
  Build what? What trait?
  - baybal2 8y ago
    Infrastructure: power stations, grid, water supply, sewage, roads, garbage removal. Without that, you have no functioning cities, and without that, no modern day economy. > What trait? The believes in all kinds of trickery. No will to deal with issues the straight way. Such people spend more time looking for a shortcut, than dealing with an issue at hand. Look: Mr. Gates spent $200m on a magic toilet that is nowhere to be found. That's enough to build 5 small electric power stations, and 5 small sewage treatment plants in a third world country. How many people lives were improved with magic toilet, and how much by building more infrastructure.
    - kiriakasis 8y ago
      > Look: Mr. Gates spent $200m on a magic toilet that is nowhere to be found. That's enough to build 5 small electric power stations, and 5 small sewage treatment plants in a third world country. There was a nice movie about an engineer that was in Thailand (not sure about the country) to build a dam. long story short a civil war start in the country and he is a main target because infrastructure investment from outside to build an infrastructure you cannot maintain only puts you in a death spiral of debt.
- renjimen 8y ago
  It’s pure pragmatism. There aren’t the resources to build and maintain a sewage network everywhere it is required. Having a more self contained, affordable solution is better for many places.
chiefalchemist 8y ago
> "One thing I always thought fascinating about Gates was his candid relationship with feces." I'd say his relationship is with humans. People are his ends. Feces (i.e., the lack there of) are his means. It's a stunning example of hope (not being lost). What's most impressive to me is a $200 million investment over 7 years, has the potential to "return" $200 billion __annually__. The lottery seems to break $200M a couple+ times per yer. Editorial: It's amazing what you can accomplish for the price of a handful of F35 fighter jets.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- aplummer 8y ago
  Just _one_ F35, depending on the variant.
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    Thx. I looked and couldn't find it mentioned per jet.
    - jnwatson 8y ago
      That’s because there aren’t any honest prices for a single jet. The R&D cost is so high that how one amortizes that can make 2 orders of magnitude difference in unit cost.
      - aplummer 8y ago
        I assumed just what they sold them for per unit to other countries, but maybe they pitched in for R&D? Seems to range from 90-130. Maybe you get 2 if you buy the non navy version.
- weaksauce 8y ago
  > Editorial: It's amazing what you can accomplish for the price of a handful of F35 fighter jets. sadly our investments don't align in the high return ways.
arnau 8y ago
hola
hyperpallium 8y ago
A surgeon who was a missionary in nepal said he'd have had far gteater impact on health by digging ditches, because of open sewers. He didn't, because it was more important to him to be a surgeon. Seems Bill Gates is trying to improve the whole system, not just some technical aspect. Which also differentiated MS from most technical companies.

nradov 8y ago

Western toilets seem to work reasonably well with septic tanks in rural areas. Those don't involve sewer lines or treatment plants.

aerophilic 8y ago
The issue comes down to cost. As he mentions in the article, the goal is to get to 5 cents a day. Just a basic calculation, a “standard” septic system costs between $1500-4000 to install, and lasts roughly 25 years. Just doing the math on the low end costs brings you to about $0.16 cents a day, 3X the goal Bill Gates is advocating. Note: this isn’t even taking into account the cost of the toilet itself or any plumbing needed.
- gnarbarian 8y ago
  Really all you'd need to do to drastically improve things is get them to simply dig a hole for an outhouse instead of the rampant open defecation seen in India and some parts of Africa. We can solve the more complex and exponentially expensive problems of water treatment later. Digging a deep hole gets rid of rampant cholera and incidental exposure. Basically you've got to learn to crawl before you can run a 10k. edit: You can get someone who is completely illiterate and cut off from civilization to understand the concept of digging a hole for the shit to go in. This has the added benefit of not requiring advanced manufacturing technology or materials. they just have to dig a hole and move the outhouse top over to the new hole when the old one gets full. This makes them self reliant.
  - m_mueller 8y ago
    "really all they need to figure out first is to talk to each other before we build mobile cell towers for them" innovations drive change drive more innovation. I recommend Hans Rosling's talks. There is no such thing as the "Third World" anymore, they're all on various development trajectories. Don't think e.g. Somalia is typical for Africa.
    - gnarbarian 8y ago
      And what I'm saying is a outhouse /is/ a huge innovation to many places in Western Africa and India. It's largely a cultural problem like rampant littering or pollution. One guy digging an outhouse and shitting in it won't make any more difference than a single person recycling. But if enough people do it they will see a huge improvement in public health and infant mortality.
      - m_mueller 8y ago
        I'd argue that going from shitting in the woods to a well engineered and cheap toilet is a much more attractive step for most people than having them dig outhouses. It's like with the washing mashines - once electrification is there it's one of the first purchases since it's such a quality of life improvement, and this has happened for a majority of the world's population.
odonnellryan 8y ago
Where do you think the poop goes when it gets pumped out? In the sailing community more and more people are using composting toilets: https://farmingmybackyard.com/diy-composting-toilet/ https://farmingmybackyard.com/diy-composting-toilet/ As long as it is disposed of safely (properly composted), the cost here is the composting material.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  Most properly sized and installed septic tanks do not ever need to be pumped out. They compost on their own and the excess water seeps out underground.
  - asteli 8y ago
    this was contrary to my city-dweller's understanding, so i did some quick wiki-reading and it seems like the reality is somewhere between you and GP's statement? i.e. they do biodegrade waste via anaerobic bacteria, but non-degradable sludge has to get pumped out every few years.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      >every few years Every few decades for a properly sized and properly functioning system.
      - camhenlin 8y ago
        Septic tank owner here. I own a single family home, maybe larger setups are different. The recommendation from the installer is that it is pumped and inspected every 3-4 years.
        dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        > The recommendation from the installer is that it is pumped and inspected every 3-4 years. That sounds about right if the goal is to keep a system that's not properly functioning (not enough microbes to break down solids) from filling up to the point of causing problems. You won't go wrong if you follow that advice but depending on what goes into your septic (do you have a garbage disposal, do you do laundry with bleach, number of people in household, etc) you may be able to go an order of magnitude longer. Recommending a system be pumped every 3-4yr is like a 3k oil change, it's excessive in the overwhelming majority of use cases but it will make more money for whoever does the work and not cause a system to fail in a way that comes back to bite whoever installed it.
smileysteve 8y ago
They do when they're kept up and in good condition. When there is abundant fresh water. But when they're not kept up. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/05/hookworm-lowndes-county-alabama-water-waste-treatment-poverty https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/05/hookworm-low...
keypress 8y ago
The silly thing is, that in it's very basic form, if you divide liquid and solid wastes at the point of exit, solid waste composts easily and readily, with some carbon additives and air. It is very low tech. Not so good in flood prone areas (without additional acre), and one has to be environmentally aware to say the least. But education is a winner here. I'm tied into a shitty contract with a plant owner that is operating illegally. And I've looked at alternatives, but the simplest really is just a bucket that is carried out to the garden. Posh compost toilets are just buckets in chambers that are well ventilated. If you have the space, you can incorporate the chambers into the house and preferably have some ability to rotate. Otherwise it's a case of emptying in a rodent proof heap. You can always compost twice. At least you can then use the waste. Rather than having to pump out sludge that may contain other household contaminants.

killjoywashere 8y ago

> because they require a massive infrastructure of sewer lines and treatment plants How do you think economies grow? Job creation at this scale has to be funded out of tax receipts and bonds. The problem is managing the corruption (note: one must assume there are corrupt actors. The trick is managing them).

jniedrauer 8y ago
"Job creation" by itself isn't a very noble goal. Creating hamster wheels for humans to run on is comically cruel and pointless.
- tormeh 8y ago
  Life is a hamster wheel for humans. But, yes, it's a dumb idea.
- gnode 8y ago
  Fundamentally I agree with this, it's very inefficient and wasteful of resources, although I sometimes wonder whether it's the only practical way to provide welfare in places where politics / prevalent ideology oppose direct social policies.
  - mamon 8y ago
    It can also be argued that charities providing all those third world country with basic supplies, like food, clothes or drugs, actually ruin their economies. It's simply impossible for local producers of said goods to compete on price with charity organization that gives those away for free. If a corporation would try to do that in US, it would be called price dumping and trigger antimonopoly lawsuit against them, but somehow, when it's done to poor African countries we consider it OK, and even expect them to be gratefull for it. EDIT: I think that China does much better job helping them by making actual investments in their economies, building railroads, factories, etc. You might question their intentions, but you cannot question the results.
- killjoywashere 8y ago

godelmachine 8y ago

If you watch the video properly you will see that he did not drink the water

adwn 8y ago
> * If you watch the video properly you will see that he did not drink the water* Then what's he doing at 1:52? Although granted, the Janicki Omniprocessor website says that it doesn't quite produce drinking water quality.
- godelmachine 8y ago
  I don't see him gulping the water down. As a matter of fact, the water barely touched his lips.

Fomite 8y ago

> One thing I always thought fascinating about Gates was his candid relationship with feces. You pretty much can't be in public health, especially not developing world public health, without developing a preoccupation with poo.

ethbro 8y ago
A true engineer follows problems to solutions. Gates is up front about this. What kills the most people? Of those things, which can be realistically improved?

baybal2 8y ago

>>Western toilets aren’t the answer, because they require a massive infrastructure of sewer lines and treatment plants that just isn’t feasible in many poor countries. Then build it! No magic tricks there. I think, this is the most infuriating trait I see in all Silicon Valley "sophisticated person" types.

blowski 8y ago
Build what? What trait?
- baybal2 8y ago
  Infrastructure: power stations, grid, water supply, sewage, roads, garbage removal. Without that, you have no functioning cities, and without that, no modern day economy. > What trait? The believes in all kinds of trickery. No will to deal with issues the straight way. Such people spend more time looking for a shortcut, than dealing with an issue at hand. Look: Mr. Gates spent $200m on a magic toilet that is nowhere to be found. That's enough to build 5 small electric power stations, and 5 small sewage treatment plants in a third world country. How many people lives were improved with magic toilet, and how much by building more infrastructure.
  - kiriakasis 8y ago
    > Look: Mr. Gates spent $200m on a magic toilet that is nowhere to be found. That's enough to build 5 small electric power stations, and 5 small sewage treatment plants in a third world country. There was a nice movie about an engineer that was in Thailand (not sure about the country) to build a dam. long story short a civil war start in the country and he is a main target because infrastructure investment from outside to build an infrastructure you cannot maintain only puts you in a death spiral of debt.
renjimen 8y ago
It’s pure pragmatism. There aren’t the resources to build and maintain a sewage network everywhere it is required. Having a more self contained, affordable solution is better for many places.

chiefalchemist 8y ago

> "One thing I always thought fascinating about Gates was his candid relationship with feces." I'd say his relationship is with humans. People are his ends. Feces (i.e., the lack there of) are his means. It's a stunning example of hope (not being lost). What's most impressive to me is a $200 million investment over 7 years, has the potential to "return" $200 billion __annually__. The lottery seems to break $200M a couple+ times per yer. Editorial: It's amazing what you can accomplish for the price of a handful of F35 fighter jets.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
aplummer 8y ago
Just _one_ F35, depending on the variant.
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  Thx. I looked and couldn't find it mentioned per jet.
  - jnwatson 8y ago
    That’s because there aren’t any honest prices for a single jet. The R&D cost is so high that how one amortizes that can make 2 orders of magnitude difference in unit cost.
    - aplummer 8y ago
      I assumed just what they sold them for per unit to other countries, but maybe they pitched in for R&D? Seems to range from 90-130. Maybe you get 2 if you buy the non navy version.
weaksauce 8y ago
> Editorial: It's amazing what you can accomplish for the price of a handful of F35 fighter jets. sadly our investments don't align in the high return ways.

arnau 8y ago

hola

hyperpallium 8y ago

A surgeon who was a missionary in nepal said he'd have had far gteater impact on health by digging ditches, because of open sewers. He didn't, because it was more important to him to be a surgeon. Seems Bill Gates is trying to improve the whole system, not just some technical aspect. Which also differentiated MS from most technical companies.