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Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA
- db48x 8y agoOne of them should have just bought the other.
- JshWright 8y agoThe Girl Scouts have zero interest in buying the Boy Scouts, and the Boy Scouts likely wouldn't be able to come close to buying the cookie empire.
- paulddraper 8y agoIDK how much Boy Scouts is worth, but they raise and spend a ton. CEO of the non-profit has a $1.6m salary.
- craftyguy 8y agoA business that uses free child labor to sell cookies with massive margins cannot be cheap..
- paulddraper 8y agoIn reality, both are non-profits so there isn't any stock to buy.
- craftyguy 8y agoRight, they would have to 'merge'. But there's little incentive for the Girl Scouts to share their "non"-profits with others.
- thrower123 8y agoYeah, there is a lot of potential liability for little upside with the Boy Scouts. It's up there with buying a Catholic dioceses...
- mdasen 8y agoThey can't really buy one another because they're both non-profit charities. They could decide to merge, but it seems they don't want to.
- duskwuff 8y agoThis wouldn't work -- while BSA and GSA are superficially similar, there are deep ideological divides between the two groups. BSA has historically had strong ties to Christian groups and politically conservative ideologies, while GSA has generally avoided religious ties and supported more liberal policies. By way of example, BSA prohibited "open and avowed" homosexuals from serving as leaders until 2015, whereas GSA has had "no membership policies on sexual preference" since 1991. Besides, these aren't publicly traded companies. They're not for sale; one cannot "buy" the other.
- flyGuyOnTheSly 8y agoSeems like a losing battle (for the Girl Scouts suit) in 2018.
- hyperrail 8y agoIn many English-speaking countries other than the US (including Canada and UK), the Girl Scouts are actually called Girl Guides - and thus both the (Boy) Scouts and (Girl) Guides could theoretically admit both sexes without name conflicts or confusing names by simply dropping the references to boys and girls in their names. For example, the British Boy Scouts organization is simply the "Scout Association" and has admitted girls under that name since the 1970s, though the British Girl Scouts organization is "Girlguiding" and is still for girls only. Perhaps we Americans could rename the Boy Scouts and/or Girl Scouts to have a similar distinction as a way to smooth over this dispute. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_Guides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_Guides )
- devoply 8y agoI can see plenty of woke parents wanting their male child to be a Guide.
- kulahan 8y agoThey specifically chose the name "Scouts BSA" because changing the name from "Boy Scouts of America" would effectively require an act of congress. BSA were given a special legal status WAY beyond what normal copyright law allows, and so a "simple" name change becomes not so "simple" after all, unfortunately. In fact, this copyright law is so powerful, during the court case Wrenn v. BSA from 2008, in which the court flat out said: "BSA need not demonstrate the likelihood of confusion because it has been granted special protection by Congressional charter" (link to law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/30905 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/30905)
- Casseres 8y agoPoint of Clarification: The program name where youth can earn Eagle is now called Scouts BSA, the organization name still remains Boy Scouts of America. The Boy Scouts of America has allowed girls in their other programs since the 1970s.
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- i_phish_cats 8y agoI will sue the Girl Scouts for implying that there are only two genders.
- porphyrogene 8y agoThis is not Reddit. Hacker News is a place for respectful discourse.
- ct520 8y agoMaybe he was being serious. Techy crowd never stops surprising me
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- i_phish_cats 8y agoI find your bi-gender-normative attitude extremely disrespectful.
- ndnxhs 8y agoIn Australia its just called scouts. Its been forever since I was there but I remember it being a fairly even split between boys and girls.
- AndrewDavis 8y agoWe also have Girl Guides, which is like Scouts but only for girls. https://www.girlguides.org.au/ https://www.girlguides.org.au/
- kowdermeister 8y agoThis is perfect https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/ https://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/ material.
- sreyaNotfilc 8y agoI originally thought it was. Then, I realized its Hacker News. Not many jokes float around this area.
- RandomTisk 8y agoNo funyuns allowed.
- kowdermeister 8y agoNo fun. Just pseudo-academia. Keep it civil.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoJokes are totes allowed. They just have to be particularly high quality, including civil. No Beavis and Butthead. A lot of humor is only funny if you are cool with being monstrously ugly about specific topics. That type humor tends to not fly here. I'm okay with that.
- modzu 8y agobeavis and butthead is actually a cleverly subversive vehicle for social criticism and a particularly creative and intelligent comedy
- lozaning 8y agoAccording to an article in Time[1] 'The Girl Scouts seek a court order blocking the Boy Scouts from using the term “Scout,” “Scouts,” “Scouting,” or “Scouts BSA” without an “inherently distinctive or distinguishing term appearing immediately before it.”' How is the word scout not considered to be a generic trademark type word at this point and in this context? Does anyone not see this as a silly, frivolous argument? I'd love to hear your take. [1] http://www.time.com/5446540/girl-scouts-boy-scouts-lawsuit/ http://www.time.com/5446540/girl-scouts-boy-scouts-lawsuit/
- ajmurmann 8y agoIn this context the is now a risk of confusing products. You can still release products with the word "scout" in it on contexts where there is no danger of confusion by consumers. So you could still have a car called "scout" without these two orgs suing you
- function_seven 8y agoIn the context of youth leadership development, "Scout" can be trademarked. Just like "Apple"—in the context of computers, phones, etc.—is owned by the Mac and iPhone company. Are there any other organizations that use "Scout" in their name, besides BSA and GSUSA?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- steelframe 8y ago> Just like "Apple"—in the context of computers, phones, etc.—is owned by the Mac and iPhone company. Remember that epic multi-decade Apple Corps vs. Apple Computer trademark battle? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer
- function_seven 8y agoHa, I do. This line didn't bode well: > As a condition of the settlement, Apple Computer agreed not to enter the music business $500mm later, and they're best friends now.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- o0-0o 8y agoThank you for the shit show liberal democrats. Boy y’all want power. I hope to God you never get it.
- 2_listerine_pls 8y ago> The Girl Scouts seek a court order blocking the Boy Scouts from using the term “Scout,” “Scouts,” “Scouting,” or “Scouts BSA” without an “inherently distinctive or distinguishing term appearing immediately before it.” Blockchain Scouts of America
- dudul 8y agoBoy Scouts don't welcome girls: they get sued and vilified. Boy Scouts open membership to girls: they get sued and vilified.
- emiliobumachar 8y agoSetious question: If they agree to name everything "Boy" again, can girls and women in the movement get sufficiently upset with that othering that they eventually sue too, for gender discrimination? As a man, I'd be a little uncomfortable to join Woman Gamers or whatever, even if activities perfectly matched my interests.
- anonymfus 8y agoThe title is misleading: the problem is not welcoming girls but dropping "Boy" from the name.
- ericb 8y agoThe move to allow both boys and girls in the (Boy) scouts looks really smart, long-term. For parents with both boys and girls, the choice is now to join two organizations and deal with two sets of meetings, fundraisers, schedules, and activities, or join the (formerly Boy) scouts only and have half the headaches.
- taeric 8y agoThis seems to largely be a win "on paper." With multiple girls, we already have to deal with the same organization multiple times for little reason. Adding another organization doesn't sound like it will actually cost much.
- mdasen 8y agoIt's amazing how times change. Just a few years ago, the Boy Scouts wouldn't allow gay kids to join (2013) and wouldn't allow gay leaders (2015). Back then, people were applauding the Girl Scouts for their progressive stance on gay rights and transgender youths. Today, the Boy Scouts are leaning into a more gender-neutral membership. Ultimately, I think the Girl Scouts are worried about their membership. If Scouts BSA accepts all applicants while they only accept girls, Scouts BSA is likely to carve out a bunch of their membership. When men's colleges went co-ed, it didn't really threaten women's colleges because the formerly men's colleges couldn't just grow their membership. They had limited classroom space, limited dorms, etc. However, with less fixed infrastructure, Scouts BSA could absorb a lot of the Girl Scouts membership. Personally, I think there is room for multiple gender-neutral youth organizations with different ranges of activities. However, it will mean that organizations must provide a positive reason for people to want to join rather than the negative "you aren't allowed in the other club".
- taeric 8y agoYou should read the article. The concern is less over them taking in girls, but in doing so and assuming the name "scout". Sending fliers to young families with "join the scouts" and not being honest that they are joining a different organization than the Girl Scounts is... slimy. At best. Your history just adds to the feel that this is being done entirely as a somewhat "below the water" way to up the BSA membership. They got a tarnished name for a while, so now it looks like they are trying to wash some of their garbage with the reputation of the Girl Scouts.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 8y agoI also came here with a similar sentiment that I was expecting would be echoed by someone else in this thread. As an Eagle Scout who participated in a co-ed Venture Crew, I think it’s a good step forward for the BSA organization. People in the thread have mentioned some possible issues with co-Ed integration, and while it has its issues, I firmly believe on the whole that it’s a net good for the organization. I won’t speak for the plight of the Girl Scouts organization, who undoubtedly has done a lot of good and has always been the more progressive of the two organizations, but I can at least say that the BSA has done decently well to adapt to the current times given the immense sort of political pressures they have been under over the past 50 years. I have a lot of value and memories of my time in the Scouts and given the changes they have implemented after various scandals over the years I can confidently say that they are at least interested in fixing long running issues unlike other organizations such as the Catholic Church who are more willing to ostrich-head-in-the-sand away something when nastiness emerges.
- makewavesnotwar 8y agoNothing about the Boy Scouts is really gender specific, beyond their requirement to be male that's set to be amended in February. I don't understand how "Scouts BSA" is a violation of any trademarks that the Girl Scouts might hold. Especially considering the Girl Scouts came after BSA had already been established. If anything I would say that Girl Scouts are encroaching on the BSA's brand identity by calling themselves "X Scouts". When someone talks about being in the Scouts, I tend to take it as the Boy Scouts already. And there aren't to my knowledge a lot of boys upset that they can't become Gold Star Girl Scouts... There are on the other hand a lot of females that are upset about not being able to become Eagles. [0] Reading the article it sounds like some evil cookie corporation is pissed that they're losing free child labor rather than genuine concern for the empowerment of young people. [0] https://www.outsideonline.com/2347221/let-me-become-eagle-scout https://www.outsideonline.com/2347221/let-me-become-eagle-sc...
- randyrand 8y agoI don't have a strong opinion either way (I'm an Eagle Scout), but the decision to include girls will fundamentally change Scouting. Guys act differently when around girls. Girls act differently when around guys. This is doubly true for ages 12-17. Whether this is a change for the better or worse is subjective but there is no doubt it is a drastic change. There is benefit to boys interacting with girls. There is benefit to boys having some time themselves as well.
- ericb 8y agoThe current plan is that they separate dens by gender.
- randyrand 8y agoThanks for that info. I had heard mixed things but only when they had just announced it. I think that’s a good call.
- Casseres 8y agoThat's for Cub Scouts. For Scouts BSA, the current plan is to have boy-only troops and girl-only troops. They can share the same troop number, committee, budget, etc, but only the Scoutmaster has to be different. I foresee that changing or troops taking initiative and organizing differently unofficially, but that's the current plan.
- derekp7 8y agoAnyone remember a similar lawsuit between BSA and Hacker Scouts? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240830
- codevark 8y agoSolution. Just be "Scouts".
- AuthorizedCust 8y agoI am the Cubmaster of a large Cub Scout pack (>150 kids). Admitting girls has been a non-issue, except to local Girl Scouts USA activists (long story, and it wasn't pretty). Girls have always been in Boy Scouts: sisters have ALWAYS been coming to meetings. Now they get to earn badges, too. My son still picks boogers and giggles at farts even with girls around. This lawsuit is but the latest in GSUSA's petty-ness. I don't want to harm local Girl Scout troops, so we've been laying low at recruiting girls at schools with GSUSA presence. But my patience with GSUSA is running thin.
- nedwin 8y agoKeen to hear the long story. Any articles you recommend as someone in the know?
- taeric 8y agoAs a counterpoint, I've actually been kind of annoyed with the local boy scouts for getting somewhat active trying to recruit my girls to their scouts. I get that they likely mean well, but my kids are already quite happy in the girl scouts. No need to try and confuse things by trying to "turn a new leaf." I confess I assumed you were both the same organization years ago. Found out you weren't, and largely didn't care. That it largely seems to be an image saving move by the boy scouts, though, does give a bad taste.
- em-bee 8y agough, yeah, active members for one group should be off limits for recruitment by the other. the goal should be to get more kids into scouting, not to poach each others membership. i hope this kind of behavior is not common. greetings, eMBee
- taeric 8y agoBeing fair, I don't think most of it is intentional. Just if they see us out, they ask if they know the boy scouts allow girls to join. If they just ask if they know the "scouts" allow girls, it just confuses them. Of course there girl scouts allow girls to join.
- crazygringo 8y agoIt's strange to me that Girl Scouts were able to have that name in the first place, once Boy Scouts already existed -- there's so much trademark confusion, for a long time I'd always assumed they were two branches of the same org, and trademarks aren't supposed to allow for this kind of confusion. I totally understand why Girl Scouts doesn't want to allow Boy Scouts to drop "Boy" because it feels unfair (neither should get to claim a more "universal" scouting trademark)... but I also don't understand why Girl Scouts were allowed to have the name in the first place in 1913 (Boy Scouts started in 1910, and Girl Scouts were originally Girl Guides).
- chrischen 8y agoI don’t think girls were originally allowed, so if girls couldn’t be scouts it didn’t seem fair.
- mgleason_3 8y agoIt seems to have more to do with protecting the cookie sales that provide their livelihoods than it does with providing leadership growth for the girls. We have s friend who worked with GSA for a couple years and came away utterly disgusted with the amount of pressure that’s applied on all the local chapters and how much of the proceeds is extracted back to the mothership while providing essentially no services in return. Where is all the money going? She seemed to think it was ripe to be the next big scandal - similar to the RedCtoss.
- ryanmercer 8y ago>there's so much trademark confusion, for a long time I'd always assumed they were two branches of the same org, and trademarks aren't supposed to allow for this kind of confusion. Confusion goes way, way back in the U.S. as far as scouting as there have been multiple organizations doing similar things, just between 1896 and the 1940's you had: - Woodcraft Indians - Sons of Daniel Boone - Boy Scouts of the United States - Peace Scouts of California, New England Boy Scouts, Rhode Island Boy Scouts, Michigan Forest Scouts - Life Saving Scouts of the World - American Boy Scouts - YMMIA Scouts - Colonel Cody’s Boy Scouts - Lone Scouts of America - Columbian Squires - Boy's Works - DeMolay International And probably many other smaller ones.
- fusiongyro 8y agoI feel like I always hear about girl scout fundraising (not just the cookies) but never about girl scouting. In contrast, I hear a lot about camping and whatnot with the boy scouts, yet they never seem to be in my face raising money. What's all that girl scout money going towards? More fundraising?
- watwut 8y agoDepending on country you live in, girl version may do different activities then boy version. In some places it is more crafting and similar thing. The history of boy vs girl versions are different. Boy version evolved from "boys need activities/guidance and to be better prepared for next war with activities inspired by special unit" and packed with proper boy activities, while girl version started off with proper girl activities.
- gaius 8y agoBoth need to get back to their roots. Scouts locate the enemy and report back. Guides find routes through hostile terrain. Neither has to be a specific sex to complete their mission.
- watwut 8y agoThe origin of girl guides is not in guiding through hostile terrain despite what the name suggests. It is an trying to create an organization for girls inspires by boy scouts, but focusing more on proper feminine activities. You don't need to be girl to enjoy crafts and plenty boys are handy, but these activities were considered feminine and still largely are. Boy scouts origin is in veteran thinking boys are growing too meek to be good future soldiers and also lack adult guidance messing around aimlessly not getting themselves ready. They were trying to give them something fun and good to spend time with.
- ryanmercer 8y agoNot sure why you are being downvoted. Some scouting organizations required their scouts to carry firearms, for example The American Boy Scouts (ABS), formed by William Randolph Hearst, carried rifles chambered in .22 and .32 rimfire.
- elygre 8y agoIn Norway, they solved the problem by actually merging the two organizations. In 1978.
- lb1lf 8y agoTrue, but still a male Norwegian scout's international affiliation is with the WOSM (World Organization of the Scout Movement), whereas a female scout is with the WAGGGS (World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts); there are two distinct world organizations. (Oh, and to complicate matters further, the YMCA/YWCA scouts and guides are not members of the national scout association; they have their own organization.) On a domestic level, though, this works a charm.
- vegardx 8y agoThe thing is that it really only have to work on a domestic level. I don't see any good reasons for international scout organizations, unless you want to make it political.
- lb1lf 8y agoThat depends - I can see several reasons why (some) international coordination can be beneficial - areas where the alternative is a number of bilateral agreements. Say, organizing jamborees, helping nascent scout movements get going, providing training and educational material to national movements, liaising with other international NGOs &c, &c. That being said, I doubt the WOSM/WAGGGS affiliation is at the front of many scouts/guides' minds during day-to-day-activities.
- elygre 8y agoNorges Speiderforbud is affiliated with both WOSM and WAGGGS (https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norges_speiderforbund https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norges_speiderforbund)
- lb1lf 8y agoThat it is, but as the international associations are gender-specific, a male NSF member is affiliated with WOSM, a female with WAGGGS. Not knowing the first thing about international scout politics, I would think the time was ripe for merging WOSM and WAGGGS into one.
- gaius 8y agoWhy don’t they just merge? If the Boy Scouts can go gender-neutral why can’t the Girl Scouts too?
- amitport 8y agoI don't get it 1 - "Scouts BSA" still has 'Boy' in the BSA initials I don't get it 2 - 2018 USA still has separate "scouts" organizations for boys and girls?!
- BurnGpuBurn 8y agoWill we see a total ban on single gender clubs in the future? And is that what we want? I don't get what is so wrong about having a few kids activities that are for just one of the genders. I think it's very healthy for kids to experience all the differences between boys and girls early on, to learn. But they should also be allowed to enjoy the company of just each other when they want to. It's an important process to understand how that part of reality functions. In sports this happens a lot and I think it's really healthy that girls aren't forced to play soccer with the boys all the time, but that there are girl teams and boys teams. Likewise for many sports. Are we all becoming so politically correct that we effectively stop teaching our children the values of masculinity and femininity?
- sametmax 8y agoIt's like removing separation of genders for toilets and showers everywhere. The gender targetted marketting, clothes and pronuon. On paper, the body is natural and it's a useless artificial separation. In practice, our society is imperfect, social norms and biological instincts don't align with moral and economy and logistic are important factors. Besides, as you said, it's an interesting (and i believe benefecial) expefience to immerse one self in environnement with only your gender sometimes.
- humanrebar 8y agoIt is ironic when we homogenize society in the name of diversity. In most dictionaries "variety" and "diversity" are synonyms.
- Angostura 8y agoAs a father of daughters in the UK who really really enjoy going to Scouts; camping, stupid rough-and tumble games etc, I'm glad they are able to. If the girl's organisations such as the GirlGuides weren't so tepid, perhaps there wouldn't be a need. I don't see that there's anything particularly particularly "politically" correct in this. Mind you, I've never particularly felt an overwhelming urge to "teach my children the value of femininity". Do you think I'm failing as a parent?
- russellbeattie 8y agoBoy Scouts of America is a discriminatory religious organization with a ridiculously long record of exclusionary policies [1]. They don't "welcome" gay scouts, but permit them. Atheists still aren't allowed to be scout leaders. As a parent I refused to let my son have anything to do with them. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_member...
- brobdingnagians 8y agoI think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see. If you have a private organization and want to give good experiences to young men, then I think you should be able to do so. Someone else can make another organization for young women, or even one for both, each of these provides a unique experience for those who want it, and in a pluralistic society this kind of diversity enriches society for everyone. Look at it more as diversity. Atheists can make their own camps which promote their own ideas and ethics, and it will be a haven for good memories among them. It isn't good to homogenize all of society and attack those who just want their own little "safe haven" and "summer camps" for their children and their cultural ideas without bothering anyone else. I fully support your right to put your son wherever you want, just please support my right to do the same.
- EvanAnderson 8y agoThe Boy Scouts of America has a congressional charter. They are not a run-of-the-mill private organization. Their discrimination is unacceptable as a publicly-chartered organization.
- zamadatix 8y agoDoes that mean anything or is it just honorific like most recognition of groups from the government? I think it's quite well established the Boy Scouts of America are a well recognized group regardless of this so I don't see how this is what makes them non run-of-the-mill.
- kelvin0 8y agoI'm glad someone is fighting that urgent battle, surely it's worth all the time and effort ...
- GJR 8y agoIt's what Baden-Powell would have wanted.