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"I advised Will on why ambulances should be reserved for life or limb threatening injuries and that every ambulance that is thoughtlessly called for a non-life-

"I advised Will on why ambulances should be reserved for life or limb threatening injuries and that every ambulance that is thoughtlessly called for a non-life-threatening injury is one less ambulance that is available to actually save a life rather than be used as a convenience." What a load of absolute garbage. Shame. There are plenty, PLENTY of ambulances to go around. This isn't some wartime situation where medical care should only go to those about to die. A few years back my wife had a back injury that prevented her from walking. We called an ambulance, and it was the best decision both according to her (who couldn't move) the ambulance paramedics, and the doctors at the hospital. Her injuries WERE NOT LIFE THREATENING, but she still required an ambulance to transport her without further injuring her back and potentially causing paralysis. Again, not life threatening, just paralysis - no big deal right? Basil Besh should step down from whatever position they hold.

JacKTrocinskI 8y ago
Totally agree with you. The thought of someone advising another person on whether or not to use an ambulance when they ask for one is unimaginable. Maybe there are some people that abuse the system, but I think the overwhelming majority of people know when to call an ambulance without having to be advised on it. Either there are some hardcore Tesla fanboys on this forum or seems to me there might be some Tesla PR going on here, don't know what to make of some of the comments and of course can't prove where they originate from.
- loceng 8y ago
  Even in this context of a it being doctor advising another person?
- travisoneill1 8y ago
  I knew an EMT who called himself a "Medicaid chauffeur". Said people would call for headaches. The thought of NOT advising another person on whether or not to use an ambulance when they ask for one is unimaginable.
- jhayward 8y ago
  > The thought of someone advising another person on whether or not to use an ambulance when they ask for one is unimaginable You literally can't imagine a medical doctor, responsible for the patient in question, advising on whether an ambulance is indicated or not? Because that's what you appear to be saying.
coldtea 8y ago
>What a load of absolute garbage. Shame. There are plenty, PLENTY of ambulances to go around. This isn't some wartime situation where medical care should only go to those about to die. And your response is some anecdotal story about calling an ambulance when it wasn't really needed? Do you think ambulances (and trained medical professionals to staff them) come in plentiful supply? Do you know that many people die every year waiting for an ambulance and due to ambulance non-availability all around the world? “It’s shocking how close or how often the ambulance level gets to ‘Level Zero’ or close to ‘Level Zero.’ What this means is there are no ambulances left in the city,” Joseph Ross told the committee. https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Medics-and-EMTs-Lack-of-Ambulance-Staff-Impacting-Emergency-Response-Times-in-the-City-475187953.html https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Medics-and-EMTs-Lack-... https://globalnews.ca/news/3995973/hamilton-code-zero-ambulance-shortages/ https://globalnews.ca/news/3995973/hamilton-code-zero-ambula... https://www.boston25news.com/news/someone-is-going-to-die-25-investigates-finds-dangerous-ambulance-shortage/651046875 https://www.boston25news.com/news/someone-is-going-to-die-25... https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/11/523025987/why-send-a-firetruck-to-do-an-ambulances-job https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/11/5230259... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/david-harvey-death-ambulance-new-brunswick-1.4705140 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/david-harvey-de... https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/daily-dispatch/20180830/281663960877007 https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/daily-dispatch/2018... https://www.bmj.com/content/321/7270/1176.2 https://www.bmj.com/content/321/7270/1176.2 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/18/ambulance-crisis-led-to-20-deaths-in-east-england-over-christmas https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/18/ambulance-cr... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/31/ambulance-crews-burnout-shortages-nhs-paramedics https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/31/ambulance-cr... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/17/alarm-sharp-rise-unexpected-ambulance-patient-deaths-nhs-england https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/17/alarm-sharp-... >Basil Besh should step down from whatever position they hold. Perhaps, but not because of an ignorant rant. Note also that Basil mentions "life OR LIMB threatening" -- not just life threatening. And that can easily include risk of paralysis...
- josefresco 8y ago
  > And your response is some anecdotal story about calling an ambulance when it wasn't really needed? I think you missed the point. My anecdote was meant to outline how the ambulance WAS really needed despite my wife not in a life threatening situation. Back injuries are very, very, very serious. I spent a few days considering the possibility that my wife wouldn't ever walk again. If someone even suggested we took an ambulance needlessly I (and the doctors treating my wife) would have gone ballistic. I'm checking out from this thread as it's clearly effecting me emotionally. >Do you know that many people die every year waiting for an ambulance and due to ambulance non-availability all around the world? We're talking about Nevada, not the world.
Spooky23 8y ago
You're talking about a situation that justifies calling an ambulance. You're probably not qualified to assess the injury, your wife could not move and had an acute injury. The article is describing medical professionals in a clinical environment making medical judgement calls. Most workplace injuries are not emergencies. Even the example given of a broken hand is not an injury that is helped by an ambulance ride, if anything you are delaying treatment by calling 911 and waiting for an ambulance to be dispatched for a very low priority injury. Most companies have a policy of calling 911 only to avoid liability -- they care more able getting sued for the result of a car accident on the way to the hospital than the employee. In this case Tesla has medical personnel on site who can make subjective judgements and do so with their license at risk. The other thing being missed is once you're admitted to the hospital for a workplace injury, you're stuck in the Worker's Compensation system and end up in a kafka circle of bureaucracy where as an employee you end up wasting alot of time and potentially alot of money as the insurance companies, independent doctors, etc all fight over pennies. As far as "there are PLENTY of ambulances to go around" that often is not true, especially when you're talking about a big workplace like a factory where getting in and out will take a long time. My brother is a fireman paramedic who gets bullshit ALS calls all of the time. It's really frustrating when September comes and people in car accidents or serious injuries are left waiting because some panicked coed calls 911 for a passed out drunk friend who is "dying, I don't think she's breathing" every Friday. I'm no Tesla fanboy, if you look at my comments I'm often harshly critical of them. But IMO this is an article on a boring topic that nobody understands that is ginned up and novel because we're talking about Tesla.
- blub 8y ago
  "Even the example given of a broken hand is not an injury that is helped by an ambulance ride, if anything you are delaying treatment by calling 911 and waiting for an ambulance to be dispatched for a very low priority injury" The thought processes of some of you genuinely scares me. What happens if the person goes into shock from the pain and loses consciousness in the taxi? How the f do they even put the seatbelt on, if their hand is broken? What kind of small talk will the Lyft driver make with them? "Is that a piece of bone I see peeking there you naughty naughty boy!"
Jtsummers 8y ago
Neck and back injuries are a good reason to call an ambulance. The original quote refers not just to life but "life or limb". I suspect any reasonable person would extend that to "paralysis". Back and neck injuries often render a person immobile (as you say, for risk of further injury). Your anger seems grossly misplaced and based on a deliberate misreading or uncharitable reading.
- josefresco 8y ago
  See my other replies, Tesla denied ambulance service to man with a severe back injury, unable to walk.
  - eduah 8y ago
    Are you really willing to believe that if the medical doctor thought and ambulance was required for the supposed injury, they will choose to have someone die on their watch, with full legal liability for the death. What do you think the doctor has to gain by arranging other no ambulance medical transport here.
    - AndrewBissell 8y ago
      The doctor was taking a calculated risk that whatever care the worker didn't get, as a result of taking a ride share instead of an ambulance, wouldn't kill him. Keeps Tesla's ambulance costs and trip numbers down.
phil21 8y ago
I feel you're being kind of disingenuous here ignoring the "and limb" part of his "life and limb" statement. It's quite clear Basil would be calling an ambulance in your wife's situation - as there was significant risk in additional injury (the "limb" part of his statement) if not otherwise done. Knowing medical professionals who actually work in the ED overuse of all emergency services - including ambulances - is embarrassingly common.
- blub 8y ago
  Actually, according to the article they didn't want to call an ambulance for someone that couldn't walk, sit or stand straight (Stephon Nelson). It's sad that we're debating whether an ambulance is needed for people with back injuries or mangled/broken fingers.
- josefresco 8y ago
  “I couldn’t walk, I couldn’t sit down. I couldn’t even stand up straight,” said Nelson, who’s 30 and used to play semiprofessional football. He asked for an ambulance, but the on-call Tesla doctor said no – he could take a Lyft to the hospital instead." Sure about that?

JacKTrocinskI 8y ago

Totally agree with you. The thought of someone advising another person on whether or not to use an ambulance when they ask for one is unimaginable. Maybe there are some people that abuse the system, but I think the overwhelming majority of people know when to call an ambulance without having to be advised on it. Either there are some hardcore Tesla fanboys on this forum or seems to me there might be some Tesla PR going on here, don't know what to make of some of the comments and of course can't prove where they originate from.

loceng 8y ago
Even in this context of a it being doctor advising another person?
travisoneill1 8y ago
I knew an EMT who called himself a "Medicaid chauffeur". Said people would call for headaches. The thought of NOT advising another person on whether or not to use an ambulance when they ask for one is unimaginable.
jhayward 8y ago
> The thought of someone advising another person on whether or not to use an ambulance when they ask for one is unimaginable You literally can't imagine a medical doctor, responsible for the patient in question, advising on whether an ambulance is indicated or not? Because that's what you appear to be saying.

coldtea 8y ago

>What a load of absolute garbage. Shame. There are plenty, PLENTY of ambulances to go around. This isn't some wartime situation where medical care should only go to those about to die. And your response is some anecdotal story about calling an ambulance when it wasn't really needed? Do you think ambulances (and trained medical professionals to staff them) come in plentiful supply? Do you know that many people die every year waiting for an ambulance and due to ambulance non-availability all around the world? “It’s shocking how close or how often the ambulance level gets to ‘Level Zero’ or close to ‘Level Zero.’ What this means is there are no ambulances left in the city,” Joseph Ross told the committee. https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Medics-and-EMTs-Lack-of-Ambulance-Staff-Impacting-Emergency-Response-Times-in-the-City-475187953.html https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Medics-and-EMTs-Lack-... https://globalnews.ca/news/3995973/hamilton-code-zero-ambulance-shortages/ https://globalnews.ca/news/3995973/hamilton-code-zero-ambula... https://www.boston25news.com/news/someone-is-going-to-die-25-investigates-finds-dangerous-ambulance-shortage/651046875 https://www.boston25news.com/news/someone-is-going-to-die-25... https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/11/523025987/why-send-a-firetruck-to-do-an-ambulances-job https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/11/5230259... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/david-harvey-death-ambulance-new-brunswick-1.4705140 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/david-harvey-de... https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/daily-dispatch/20180830/281663960877007 https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/daily-dispatch/2018... https://www.bmj.com/content/321/7270/1176.2 https://www.bmj.com/content/321/7270/1176.2 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/18/ambulance-crisis-led-to-20-deaths-in-east-england-over-christmas https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/18/ambulance-cr... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/31/ambulance-crews-burnout-shortages-nhs-paramedics https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/31/ambulance-cr... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/17/alarm-sharp-rise-unexpected-ambulance-patient-deaths-nhs-england https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/17/alarm-sharp-... >Basil Besh should step down from whatever position they hold. Perhaps, but not because of an ignorant rant. Note also that Basil mentions "life OR LIMB threatening" -- not just life threatening. And that can easily include risk of paralysis...

josefresco 8y ago
> And your response is some anecdotal story about calling an ambulance when it wasn't really needed? I think you missed the point. My anecdote was meant to outline how the ambulance WAS really needed despite my wife not in a life threatening situation. Back injuries are very, very, very serious. I spent a few days considering the possibility that my wife wouldn't ever walk again. If someone even suggested we took an ambulance needlessly I (and the doctors treating my wife) would have gone ballistic. I'm checking out from this thread as it's clearly effecting me emotionally. >Do you know that many people die every year waiting for an ambulance and due to ambulance non-availability all around the world? We're talking about Nevada, not the world.

Spooky23 8y ago

You're talking about a situation that justifies calling an ambulance. You're probably not qualified to assess the injury, your wife could not move and had an acute injury. The article is describing medical professionals in a clinical environment making medical judgement calls. Most workplace injuries are not emergencies. Even the example given of a broken hand is not an injury that is helped by an ambulance ride, if anything you are delaying treatment by calling 911 and waiting for an ambulance to be dispatched for a very low priority injury. Most companies have a policy of calling 911 only to avoid liability -- they care more able getting sued for the result of a car accident on the way to the hospital than the employee. In this case Tesla has medical personnel on site who can make subjective judgements and do so with their license at risk. The other thing being missed is once you're admitted to the hospital for a workplace injury, you're stuck in the Worker's Compensation system and end up in a kafka circle of bureaucracy where as an employee you end up wasting alot of time and potentially alot of money as the insurance companies, independent doctors, etc all fight over pennies. As far as "there are PLENTY of ambulances to go around" that often is not true, especially when you're talking about a big workplace like a factory where getting in and out will take a long time. My brother is a fireman paramedic who gets bullshit ALS calls all of the time. It's really frustrating when September comes and people in car accidents or serious injuries are left waiting because some panicked coed calls 911 for a passed out drunk friend who is "dying, I don't think she's breathing" every Friday. I'm no Tesla fanboy, if you look at my comments I'm often harshly critical of them. But IMO this is an article on a boring topic that nobody understands that is ginned up and novel because we're talking about Tesla.

blub 8y ago
"Even the example given of a broken hand is not an injury that is helped by an ambulance ride, if anything you are delaying treatment by calling 911 and waiting for an ambulance to be dispatched for a very low priority injury" The thought processes of some of you genuinely scares me. What happens if the person goes into shock from the pain and loses consciousness in the taxi? How the f do they even put the seatbelt on, if their hand is broken? What kind of small talk will the Lyft driver make with them? "Is that a piece of bone I see peeking there you naughty naughty boy!"

Jtsummers 8y ago

Neck and back injuries are a good reason to call an ambulance. The original quote refers not just to life but "life or limb". I suspect any reasonable person would extend that to "paralysis". Back and neck injuries often render a person immobile (as you say, for risk of further injury). Your anger seems grossly misplaced and based on a deliberate misreading or uncharitable reading.

josefresco 8y ago
See my other replies, Tesla denied ambulance service to man with a severe back injury, unable to walk.
- eduah 8y ago
  Are you really willing to believe that if the medical doctor thought and ambulance was required for the supposed injury, they will choose to have someone die on their watch, with full legal liability for the death. What do you think the doctor has to gain by arranging other no ambulance medical transport here.
  - AndrewBissell 8y ago
    The doctor was taking a calculated risk that whatever care the worker didn't get, as a result of taking a ride share instead of an ambulance, wouldn't kill him. Keeps Tesla's ambulance costs and trip numbers down.

phil21 8y ago

I feel you're being kind of disingenuous here ignoring the "and limb" part of his "life and limb" statement. It's quite clear Basil would be calling an ambulance in your wife's situation - as there was significant risk in additional injury (the "limb" part of his statement) if not otherwise done. Knowing medical professionals who actually work in the ED overuse of all emergency services - including ambulances - is embarrassingly common.

blub 8y ago
Actually, according to the article they didn't want to call an ambulance for someone that couldn't walk, sit or stand straight (Stephon Nelson). It's sad that we're debating whether an ambulance is needed for people with back injuries or mangled/broken fingers.
josefresco 8y ago
“I couldn’t walk, I couldn’t sit down. I couldn’t even stand up straight,” said Nelson, who’s 30 and used to play semiprofessional football. He asked for an ambulance, but the on-call Tesla doctor said no – he could take a Lyft to the hospital instead." Sure about that?