8 ms·

The history of humans trying to reduce one another to a personality profile

169 points by diodorus 8y ago

mettamage 8y ago
Well what else would you use as a heuristic? If you don't have a lot of time to know a person, then in some cases a personality profile might be a good idea. If you have 8 hours worth of free time on a given day to know a person, then having a chat helps a lot more.
- nradov 8y ago
  But's what the value in practice? Is there any real proof that we can achieve superior results by interacting with colleagues in different ways based on their Myers-Briggs personality test results or whatever? People seem to take this stuff on faith but the actual evidence is distinctly lacking.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I treat people differently based on gender, age, education and many other things i know or observe about them and I think knowing Meyers Briggs may be another useful hint. You just have to avoid expecting that all INTPs or all engineers are always the same.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      Meyers Briggs is nonsense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers–Briggs_Type_Indicator#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers–Briggs_Type_Indicator#Cr...
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        From personal observation I think it gives me some good hints. It's not even close to being the only factor but I find it useful.
        nradov 8y ago
        How specifically do you treat people differently based on their personality test score? Can you give some examples? And how can you be sure that this practice is actually effective rather than just being confirmation bias?
        martindelemotte 8y ago
        I wouldn't trust a MBTI personality score because the test is too susceptible to social desirability bias. But on the other hand, assuming that you "are" an INTJ and knowing that your manager "is" an ESFJ, you should be careful to consider social harmony [1] on top of efficiency that you naturally value [2] when taking a decision at work. Now, indeed nobody is a pure ESFJ nor a pure INTJ. People tend to get hung up a little bit too much on the letters. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions#Extraverted_feeling_(Fe) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions#Ex... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions#Extraverted_thinking_(Te) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions#Ex...
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        It's a very subjective thing like all other social things. If someone has an "I" in their type it makes sense that the person maybe doesn't feel rewarded when you go to a loud nightclub for a celebration. Again, there are no hard rules but they are a useful hint like many other things.
      - martindelemotte 8y ago
        The test has low psychometric value but the underlying model is interesting [1]. I see it more as a checklist on what to consider about a person. Mainly: what is important to him or her? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions
        113 8y ago
        It's worth noting that modern psychology hasn't found any scientific backing for Jung's theories. I think most people consider it an interesting part of psychology's history, but not actually useful.
        dwringer 8y ago
        When I took some undergraduate level Psychology courses there was nothing to make me think Jung had been discounted as "an interesting part of ... history, but not actually useful" - with several comments from various instructors that his work could be tremendously beneficial but incredibly dense. FWIW the field of Psychology is full of theories and models with highly subjective applications and widespread disagreement on what is "best" for a given individual, hence the existence of so many institutional guidelines and diagnostic criteria (and even the DSM, as it changed from edition IV to V, has generated a tremendous amount of controversy among professionals, scientists, and laypeople alike). There's been a lot of coverage in the media in the past few months/years about a "replication crisis" in sciences such as this, as well, where a substantial portion of published scientific results [presumably the only "scientific backing" a theory can have in a situation like this] have outright failed to be replicated by subsequent researchers. EDIT: I'd appreciate any further detail you might have on your specific criticism of Jung, as I've apparently attracted some downvotes. I guess I'll just add that another thing I remember hearing about in school was that a lot of Jung's theories were considered impenetrable without having access to his so-called "Red Book" - which was not widely available until ~2009.
        113 8y ago
        According to Wikipedia the "Red Book" was written during an odd time for Jung: >Biographers and critics have disagreed whether these years in Jung's life should be seen as "a creative illness", a period of introspection, a psychotic break, or simply madness. Which makes me wonder about the context of what you heard in school. By that I mean people seem to agree that what Jung wrote makes sense to a lot of people, so there's something of worth in there. What it doesn't make it is scientific. There's not a lot of people currently arriving at the same conclusions as Jung. I'll admit I don't know anything about psychology (just what I've heard second hand), but I do find people like Jung quite interesting.
      - fsloth 8y ago
        Yes - it makes about as much sense as any mapping into predefined fictional categories. The anti-elevator pitch for MB is: two imaginative persons of no scientific background read a bunch of psychology, invented a model around what they learned, and no-one would have heard of them since - except, in came a consultant who said "I can sell this! Effing yay, bring the cash in!" Note the tendency of people to invent all sorts of things in falsifiable fields - like perpetual motion machines, and so on. There's no falsification mechanism in psychology... Analogously, I'm pretty sure if astrology used some non-falsifiable grounds for it's input variables it would still be a reputable academic pursuit.
        fjuerfilis 8y ago
        The statement about falsification mechanisms is incorrect. In fact, one of the problems with the Myers-Briggs is that it is continuously brought up in these discussions, even when experts in the area of behavioral individual differences dismiss it because it is lacking in evidence (and it has never really been dominant, or at least not for decades). There's all sorts of model-testing that lends support to some models (e.g., the Big Five, which is mentioned in the essay) and not the M-B, in terms of its internal empirical characteristics and predictive properties. And they do involve falsifiable predictions of multiple sorts. The problem is that people complain about nonsense such as the M-B being nothing more than a money-making consulting scam, but then don't take that assertion seriously, in the sense that they assume the consultants are scientists. It's as if con artists were selling perpetual motion machines, and HR departments started buying them, and then we started complaining about physics being non falsifiable, rather than about HR departments and business administration not understanding physics. It's all strawman arguments. As an exercise, for example, I recommend someone searching for modern basic research using Myers-Briggs uncritically in mainstream psychology journals. You probably won't find it except for as some kind of deceptive ruse in an experimental protocol. As for measuring behavior, any measurement throws away information. That's the tension: weight, BMI, blood pressure, temperature (under what pressure?), etc. The problem isn't in the measurement, it's in how that measurement is used and interpreted, and how much information is thrown away. So, nothing is wrong with getting a measure of emotional-behavioral state. The problem is overgeneralizing from that, across time or situations, overestimating its predictive information, failing to consider uncertainties or biases of measurement, and so forth. BMI is an imperfect summary of someone's physical health, but it does have utility. The danger isn't in BMI per se, it's in assuming it won't change, assuming things about the reasons for a given BMI, ignoring how any given BMI was calculated, and so forth.
      - logicchains 8y ago
        It's valuable because if you know the test well you can have a good guess about how someone answered the questions, which tells quite a bit about them, especially if you know their raw scores.
    - mattnewton 8y ago
      > I treat people differently based on gender, age, education... I really try not to until their behavior tells you to. Where practical, I think we should strive to treat people the same regardless of these attributes.
    - mcguire 8y ago
      "You just have to avoid expecting that all INTPs or all engineers are always the same." Why? If there's validity to the personally profile, you'll get the right result 60, 70, or 80% of the time. Probably more, if you don't care specifically about finding the differences.
  - joanofarf 8y ago
    I recently had to ask 5-8 colleagues to fill out a TRACOM "Social Styles Assessment" for an upcoming training program at work, so this is something I've been curious about as well. It appears that TRACOM's Social Style Model is more "effective" than the leading Meyers-Briggs program [0], but I'm not clear on how that compares to people who do not participate in any training/assessment at all. edit: from the linked journal article: > In addition, 73% of these professionals believe that interpersonal skills training is eﬀective despite the lack of empirical evidence for such a claim. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227809050_An_empirical_evaluation_of_three_popular_training_programs_to_improve_interpersonal_skills https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227809050_An_empiri...
    - jasonshen 8y ago
      Would be curious to know the difference between TRACOM and DiSC as they seem almost identical. I took a DISC assessment in college as part of a leadership program and thought it was reasonably on point. Have found the Gallup StrengthsFinders assessment more holistic and personalized. Tracom's styles: DRIVER: ( Low responsiveness, high assertiveness ) Task orientated, clearly defined goals, committed, determined, risk takers, efficient. EXPRESSIVE: ( High Responsiveness, High Assertiveness ) People orientated, centre of attention, positive, emotional, talkative, enthusiastic, dramatic. AMIABLE: ( High Responsiveness, Low Assertiveness ) Loyal, personable, patient, Uncomfortable with risk, Non-Confrontational, Dislike pressure, Enjoy the company of others. ANALYTICAL: (Low Responsiveness, Low Assertiveness) Serious, mull matters over, Indecisive, persistent, ask lots of questions, Source: https://intranet.ecu.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/753937/Social-Styles.pdf https://intranet.ecu.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/7539... DiSC model: Dominance - The D-style is the most aggressive of the 4 styles. D-styles are quick, competitive and results-focused. Influence - I-styles are the most outgoing and social of the 4 styles. They enjoy being the center of attention. I-styles like interacting with others and meeting new people. Steadiness - S-styles are calm, steady, and the most laid back of the 4 styles. S-styles are more reserved and less animated than the outgoing I-styles. Correctness - C-styles are the most analytical of the 4 styles. C-styles focus on details, facts, information, and proof. Source: https://www.extendeddisc.org/what-is-disc/ https://www.extendeddisc.org/what-is-disc/
  - analog31 8y ago
    In my view, it could be a confidence booster for people who have a hard time with social interactions, such as some managers. They can feel: "Now I know how to manage this person because they're an EMTB and I'm an EJSV." It could also give someone a way to rationalize their place in life, so they don't feel uncertain or inferior about it. "Now I know it's because I'm a JVWA. What a revelation."
    - yesenadam 8y ago
      That sounds exactly like astrological signs. ..because they're a Virgo and I'm a Gemini..
      - analog31 8y ago
        Indeed, people used astrological signs for this purpose in the past.
        umanwizard 8y ago
        And the present...
      - voltagex_ 8y ago
        I once heard someone say that "personality tests are just astrology for managers" so you're not too far off.
        Hoasi 8y ago
        > "personality tests are just astrology for managers" That's very well put.
  - laretluval 8y ago
    Myers-Briggs has poor predictive power. It's popular because it doesn't really tell you much, and it's fun to talk about, like astrology. Big Five has been shown to be highly predictive of various things like career choice and income. But it's not so fun to find out that you are highly disagreeable, low in conscientiousness, and high in neuroticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
    - bayonetz 8y ago
      The introvert/extrovert dimension is as predictive as the identical dimension in the Big 5. I've made great use of knowing when a colleague, friend, etc. is introvert or extrovert regardless of which test told used. Even if MBTI didn't quite hit the mark historically, I don't see why there are so many haters. It's part of working towards better models. It's a worthwhile pursuit to try to characterize stuff like personality. MBTI is strictly more useful than Astrology just as BIg5 is strictly more useful than MBTI. Future models will surpass these with things like hybrid self-report + neuro-imaging approaches. People really seem to feel threatened by being characterized though. It's a bummer.
      - analog31 8y ago
        I certainly feel threatened. If you knew about my "pre existing condition," you'd know that I'm threatened by information that claims to be an authoritative record about me, that I can't control, and whose use I can't control. I can't prevent any "unofficial" interpretation of this information. Making it "better" only makes it more threatening, by making it more believable or making it harder for an intelligent person to game the test.
    - lmm 8y ago
      Myers-Briggs traits are correlated with big five, so if you believe one has predictive power then so does the other.
- teekert 8y ago
  "That is such a blue thing to say" <- as is often heard in my work environment.
  - silly-silly 8y ago
    IBM ?
    - abollaert 8y ago
      Insights discovery most likely.
      - teekert 8y ago
        Indeed! Blue = Introverted, likes the details. https://www.insights.com/products/insights-discovery https://www.insights.com/products/insights-discovery
  - deleted 8y ago
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- ArtWomb 8y ago
  There are a few citizen science projects around the broad emerging field of "psychometrics". Conceivably to steer its course toward something more beneficial than microtargeting ;) Open Source Psychometrics Project https://openpsychometrics.org/ https://openpsychometrics.org/ Where I think this could help is in primary education. Particularly in the design of a bespoke curriculum or self guided-study. Taking into account the multitudes and variety of intelligences that can emerge in a population. But the real money quote from the article, which I thoroughly enjoyed reading: "The idea of cutting people up into groups is problematic."
scythe 8y ago
>When we define ourselves, we become more like that which we define, in what philosopher Ian Hacking calls “the looping effect of mankind.” Biological phenomena will carry on regardless of what it is called. The heart will continue beating whether the act of muscle contraction is called “the heartbeat” or something else. Not so for the intricacies of psychology: the proud introverts become more introverted, the neurotic more neurotic, some people buy T-shirts that say no, i’m not a sociopath, I’m just an intj. Is it even possible to construct a "personality test" that avoids suggesting people identify with negative traits?
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I don't think that any traits are inherently negative. For example I have some autistic or Asperger's traits. I had spent many years being confused that I wasn't able to do some things socially that were super easy for others. After learning about this I just felt relief. These traits are part of me like my height and hair color. Not negative, not positive.
  - neotrope 8y ago
    You’re confusing disorders from personalities.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      What's the difference? Why would I try treat autistic tendencies differently from being introvert? I don't want to live my life feeling defective.
      - ionised 8y ago
        because introversion isn't a defect anymore than extraversion is. It certainly isn't a disorder like autism, though they may come in pairs.
        creep 8y ago
timoth3y 8y ago
The seminal work on this tendency we humans have to classify and rank each other is Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man If you have a chance, it's worth a read. It's on my list of the top ten most important books I've ever read and it permanently altered the way I think about the way we think about ourselves.
- profalseidol 8y ago
  Checked one of the praise review: https://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=PAQ.053.0286A https://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=PAQ.053.0286A Sounds good. My bookmark folder grows.
- deleted 8y ago
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- haihaibye 8y ago
  https://www.nature.com/articles/474419a https://www.nature.com/articles/474419a Also, you can measure skulls of different population groups with MRIs and other modern tech, and they vary.
  - mr_overalls 8y ago
    As a fan of Gould, I was very disappointed to see that it's likely he committed scientific fraud in service of his political convictions.
    - fjsolwmv 8y ago
      Ironically, Gould's thesis was that the practice of science is politically biased.
- starbeast 8y ago
  That sounds interesting, I'll add that to my order list. What came to mind for me around this topic, was Edward Said's 'Orientalism'. Is an amazing critique.
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p0nce 8y ago
> The advice to “know thyself” is ancient, carved on the Temple of Apollo at Delphi Not an expert but I'm a bit annoyed when this comes up. In ancient morals, the injonction to Γνῶθι σεαυτόν was likely to be understood in terms as "know your position, you are not a god (even if favoured by the fortune)". It may well be a sentence against "hubris", with little relationship with the particular interpretation Socrate had of this sentence in Delphi.
- qntty 8y ago
  According to who?
  - p0nce 8y ago
    I read a book on this topic but forgot the exact reference. Not all books agreed on this when I tried finding it back.
- ImprovedSilence 8y ago
  Your understanding could be correct, but I've heard of others as well. I had heard/understood for it to be quite the opposite, based on speculation that the greek saying is likely taken from an Egyptian inscription "know thyself, and you will know the gods" aka the body is the temple of god. I believe Socrates expanded the statement to mean "the unexamined life is not worth living". all my sources are this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself
Tade0 8y ago
To me this lies at the heart of the problem with discrimination. People are being reduced to a set of categories instead of being seen as individuals - sometimes in good faith with consequences opposite to what was intended.
alexandercrohde 8y ago
I think there are a few distinct ideas to look at here: 1. Historical hubris of "authorities" : This isn't unique to psychology-- authorities in religion, philosophy, medicine have long declared the most absurd things with no observational basis (e.g. 4 humors). 2. Attempt to quantify people in general (personality being one dimension of this). Certainly mass measurement is useful sometimes - e.g. changes in baby birth-weights. However measurement can also be a tool for unjust reductionism. 3. The woeful oversimplicity of "personality research." The most respected model only has 5 attributes. Certainly there are many personality traits beyond just 5.

169 points by diodorus 8y ago

Well what else would you use as a heuristic? If you don't have a lot of time to know a person, then in some cases a personality profile might be a good idea. If you have 8 hours worth of free time on a given day to know a person, then having a chat helps a lot more.

nradov 8y ago
But's what the value in practice? Is there any real proof that we can achieve superior results by interacting with colleagues in different ways based on their Myers-Briggs personality test results or whatever? People seem to take this stuff on faith but the actual evidence is distinctly lacking.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I treat people differently based on gender, age, education and many other things i know or observe about them and I think knowing Meyers Briggs may be another useful hint. You just have to avoid expecting that all INTPs or all engineers are always the same.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    Meyers Briggs is nonsense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers–Briggs_Type_Indicator#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers–Briggs_Type_Indicator#Cr...
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      From personal observation I think it gives me some good hints. It's not even close to being the only factor but I find it useful.
      - nradov 8y ago
        How specifically do you treat people differently based on their personality test score? Can you give some examples? And how can you be sure that this practice is actually effective rather than just being confirmation bias?
        martindelemotte 8y ago
        I wouldn't trust a MBTI personality score because the test is too susceptible to social desirability bias. But on the other hand, assuming that you "are" an INTJ and knowing that your manager "is" an ESFJ, you should be careful to consider social harmony [1] on top of efficiency that you naturally value [2] when taking a decision at work. Now, indeed nobody is a pure ESFJ nor a pure INTJ. People tend to get hung up a little bit too much on the letters. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions#Extraverted_feeling_(Fe) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions#Ex... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions#Extraverted_thinking_(Te) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions#Ex...
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        It's a very subjective thing like all other social things. If someone has an "I" in their type it makes sense that the person maybe doesn't feel rewarded when you go to a loud nightclub for a celebration. Again, there are no hard rules but they are a useful hint like many other things.
    - martindelemotte 8y ago
      The test has low psychometric value but the underlying model is interesting [1]. I see it more as a checklist on what to consider about a person. Mainly: what is important to him or her? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_cognitive_functions
      - 113 8y ago
        It's worth noting that modern psychology hasn't found any scientific backing for Jung's theories. I think most people consider it an interesting part of psychology's history, but not actually useful.
        dwringer 8y ago
        When I took some undergraduate level Psychology courses there was nothing to make me think Jung had been discounted as "an interesting part of ... history, but not actually useful" - with several comments from various instructors that his work could be tremendously beneficial but incredibly dense. FWIW the field of Psychology is full of theories and models with highly subjective applications and widespread disagreement on what is "best" for a given individual, hence the existence of so many institutional guidelines and diagnostic criteria (and even the DSM, as it changed from edition IV to V, has generated a tremendous amount of controversy among professionals, scientists, and laypeople alike). There's been a lot of coverage in the media in the past few months/years about a "replication crisis" in sciences such as this, as well, where a substantial portion of published scientific results [presumably the only "scientific backing" a theory can have in a situation like this] have outright failed to be replicated by subsequent researchers. EDIT: I'd appreciate any further detail you might have on your specific criticism of Jung, as I've apparently attracted some downvotes. I guess I'll just add that another thing I remember hearing about in school was that a lot of Jung's theories were considered impenetrable without having access to his so-called "Red Book" - which was not widely available until ~2009.
        113 8y ago
        According to Wikipedia the "Red Book" was written during an odd time for Jung: >Biographers and critics have disagreed whether these years in Jung's life should be seen as "a creative illness", a period of introspection, a psychotic break, or simply madness. Which makes me wonder about the context of what you heard in school. By that I mean people seem to agree that what Jung wrote makes sense to a lot of people, so there's something of worth in there. What it doesn't make it is scientific. There's not a lot of people currently arriving at the same conclusions as Jung. I'll admit I don't know anything about psychology (just what I've heard second hand), but I do find people like Jung quite interesting.
    - fsloth 8y ago
      Yes - it makes about as much sense as any mapping into predefined fictional categories. The anti-elevator pitch for MB is: two imaginative persons of no scientific background read a bunch of psychology, invented a model around what they learned, and no-one would have heard of them since - except, in came a consultant who said "I can sell this! Effing yay, bring the cash in!" Note the tendency of people to invent all sorts of things in falsifiable fields - like perpetual motion machines, and so on. There's no falsification mechanism in psychology... Analogously, I'm pretty sure if astrology used some non-falsifiable grounds for it's input variables it would still be a reputable academic pursuit.
      - fjuerfilis 8y ago
        The statement about falsification mechanisms is incorrect. In fact, one of the problems with the Myers-Briggs is that it is continuously brought up in these discussions, even when experts in the area of behavioral individual differences dismiss it because it is lacking in evidence (and it has never really been dominant, or at least not for decades). There's all sorts of model-testing that lends support to some models (e.g., the Big Five, which is mentioned in the essay) and not the M-B, in terms of its internal empirical characteristics and predictive properties. And they do involve falsifiable predictions of multiple sorts. The problem is that people complain about nonsense such as the M-B being nothing more than a money-making consulting scam, but then don't take that assertion seriously, in the sense that they assume the consultants are scientists. It's as if con artists were selling perpetual motion machines, and HR departments started buying them, and then we started complaining about physics being non falsifiable, rather than about HR departments and business administration not understanding physics. It's all strawman arguments. As an exercise, for example, I recommend someone searching for modern basic research using Myers-Briggs uncritically in mainstream psychology journals. You probably won't find it except for as some kind of deceptive ruse in an experimental protocol. As for measuring behavior, any measurement throws away information. That's the tension: weight, BMI, blood pressure, temperature (under what pressure?), etc. The problem isn't in the measurement, it's in how that measurement is used and interpreted, and how much information is thrown away. So, nothing is wrong with getting a measure of emotional-behavioral state. The problem is overgeneralizing from that, across time or situations, overestimating its predictive information, failing to consider uncertainties or biases of measurement, and so forth. BMI is an imperfect summary of someone's physical health, but it does have utility. The danger isn't in BMI per se, it's in assuming it won't change, assuming things about the reasons for a given BMI, ignoring how any given BMI was calculated, and so forth.
    - logicchains 8y ago
      It's valuable because if you know the test well you can have a good guess about how someone answered the questions, which tells quite a bit about them, especially if you know their raw scores.
  - mattnewton 8y ago
    > I treat people differently based on gender, age, education... I really try not to until their behavior tells you to. Where practical, I think we should strive to treat people the same regardless of these attributes.
  - mcguire 8y ago
    "You just have to avoid expecting that all INTPs or all engineers are always the same." Why? If there's validity to the personally profile, you'll get the right result 60, 70, or 80% of the time. Probably more, if you don't care specifically about finding the differences.
- joanofarf 8y ago
  I recently had to ask 5-8 colleagues to fill out a TRACOM "Social Styles Assessment" for an upcoming training program at work, so this is something I've been curious about as well. It appears that TRACOM's Social Style Model is more "effective" than the leading Meyers-Briggs program [0], but I'm not clear on how that compares to people who do not participate in any training/assessment at all. edit: from the linked journal article: > In addition, 73% of these professionals believe that interpersonal skills training is eﬀective despite the lack of empirical evidence for such a claim. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227809050_An_empirical_evaluation_of_three_popular_training_programs_to_improve_interpersonal_skills https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227809050_An_empiri...
  - jasonshen 8y ago
    Would be curious to know the difference between TRACOM and DiSC as they seem almost identical. I took a DISC assessment in college as part of a leadership program and thought it was reasonably on point. Have found the Gallup StrengthsFinders assessment more holistic and personalized. Tracom's styles: DRIVER: ( Low responsiveness, high assertiveness ) Task orientated, clearly defined goals, committed, determined, risk takers, efficient. EXPRESSIVE: ( High Responsiveness, High Assertiveness ) People orientated, centre of attention, positive, emotional, talkative, enthusiastic, dramatic. AMIABLE: ( High Responsiveness, Low Assertiveness ) Loyal, personable, patient, Uncomfortable with risk, Non-Confrontational, Dislike pressure, Enjoy the company of others. ANALYTICAL: (Low Responsiveness, Low Assertiveness) Serious, mull matters over, Indecisive, persistent, ask lots of questions, Source: https://intranet.ecu.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/753937/Social-Styles.pdf https://intranet.ecu.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/7539... DiSC model: Dominance - The D-style is the most aggressive of the 4 styles. D-styles are quick, competitive and results-focused. Influence - I-styles are the most outgoing and social of the 4 styles. They enjoy being the center of attention. I-styles like interacting with others and meeting new people. Steadiness - S-styles are calm, steady, and the most laid back of the 4 styles. S-styles are more reserved and less animated than the outgoing I-styles. Correctness - C-styles are the most analytical of the 4 styles. C-styles focus on details, facts, information, and proof. Source: https://www.extendeddisc.org/what-is-disc/ https://www.extendeddisc.org/what-is-disc/
- analog31 8y ago
  In my view, it could be a confidence booster for people who have a hard time with social interactions, such as some managers. They can feel: "Now I know how to manage this person because they're an EMTB and I'm an EJSV." It could also give someone a way to rationalize their place in life, so they don't feel uncertain or inferior about it. "Now I know it's because I'm a JVWA. What a revelation."
  - yesenadam 8y ago
    That sounds exactly like astrological signs. ..because they're a Virgo and I'm a Gemini..
    - analog31 8y ago
      Indeed, people used astrological signs for this purpose in the past.
      - umanwizard 8y ago
        And the present...
    - voltagex_ 8y ago
      I once heard someone say that "personality tests are just astrology for managers" so you're not too far off.
      - Hoasi 8y ago
        > "personality tests are just astrology for managers" That's very well put.
- laretluval 8y ago
  Myers-Briggs has poor predictive power. It's popular because it doesn't really tell you much, and it's fun to talk about, like astrology. Big Five has been shown to be highly predictive of various things like career choice and income. But it's not so fun to find out that you are highly disagreeable, low in conscientiousness, and high in neuroticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
  - bayonetz 8y ago
    The introvert/extrovert dimension is as predictive as the identical dimension in the Big 5. I've made great use of knowing when a colleague, friend, etc. is introvert or extrovert regardless of which test told used. Even if MBTI didn't quite hit the mark historically, I don't see why there are so many haters. It's part of working towards better models. It's a worthwhile pursuit to try to characterize stuff like personality. MBTI is strictly more useful than Astrology just as BIg5 is strictly more useful than MBTI. Future models will surpass these with things like hybrid self-report + neuro-imaging approaches. People really seem to feel threatened by being characterized though. It's a bummer.
    - analog31 8y ago
      I certainly feel threatened. If you knew about my "pre existing condition," you'd know that I'm threatened by information that claims to be an authoritative record about me, that I can't control, and whose use I can't control. I can't prevent any "unofficial" interpretation of this information. Making it "better" only makes it more threatening, by making it more believable or making it harder for an intelligent person to game the test.
  - lmm 8y ago
    Myers-Briggs traits are correlated with big five, so if you believe one has predictive power then so does the other.
teekert 8y ago
"That is such a blue thing to say" <- as is often heard in my work environment.
- silly-silly 8y ago
  IBM ?
  - abollaert 8y ago
    Insights discovery most likely.
    - teekert 8y ago
      Indeed! Blue = Introverted, likes the details. https://www.insights.com/products/insights-discovery https://www.insights.com/products/insights-discovery
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ArtWomb 8y ago
There are a few citizen science projects around the broad emerging field of "psychometrics". Conceivably to steer its course toward something more beneficial than microtargeting ;) Open Source Psychometrics Project https://openpsychometrics.org/ https://openpsychometrics.org/ Where I think this could help is in primary education. Particularly in the design of a bespoke curriculum or self guided-study. Taking into account the multitudes and variety of intelligences that can emerge in a population. But the real money quote from the article, which I thoroughly enjoyed reading: "The idea of cutting people up into groups is problematic."

scythe 8y ago

>When we define ourselves, we become more like that which we define, in what philosopher Ian Hacking calls “the looping effect of mankind.” Biological phenomena will carry on regardless of what it is called. The heart will continue beating whether the act of muscle contraction is called “the heartbeat” or something else. Not so for the intricacies of psychology: the proud introverts become more introverted, the neurotic more neurotic, some people buy T-shirts that say no, i’m not a sociopath, I’m just an intj. Is it even possible to construct a "personality test" that avoids suggesting people identify with negative traits?

maxxxxx 8y ago
I don't think that any traits are inherently negative. For example I have some autistic or Asperger's traits. I had spent many years being confused that I wasn't able to do some things socially that were super easy for others. After learning about this I just felt relief. These traits are part of me like my height and hair color. Not negative, not positive.
- neotrope 8y ago
  You’re confusing disorders from personalities.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    What's the difference? Why would I try treat autistic tendencies differently from being introvert? I don't want to live my life feeling defective.
    - ionised 8y ago
      because introversion isn't a defect anymore than extraversion is. It certainly isn't a disorder like autism, though they may come in pairs.
      - creep 8y ago

timoth3y 8y ago

The seminal work on this tendency we humans have to classify and rank each other is Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man If you have a chance, it's worth a read. It's on my list of the top ten most important books I've ever read and it permanently altered the way I think about the way we think about ourselves.

profalseidol 8y ago
Checked one of the praise review: https://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=PAQ.053.0286A https://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=PAQ.053.0286A Sounds good. My bookmark folder grows.
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haihaibye 8y ago
https://www.nature.com/articles/474419a https://www.nature.com/articles/474419a Also, you can measure skulls of different population groups with MRIs and other modern tech, and they vary.
- mr_overalls 8y ago
  As a fan of Gould, I was very disappointed to see that it's likely he committed scientific fraud in service of his political convictions.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    Ironically, Gould's thesis was that the practice of science is politically biased.
starbeast 8y ago
That sounds interesting, I'll add that to my order list. What came to mind for me around this topic, was Edward Said's 'Orientalism'. Is an amazing critique.

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p0nce 8y ago

> The advice to “know thyself” is ancient, carved on the Temple of Apollo at Delphi Not an expert but I'm a bit annoyed when this comes up. In ancient morals, the injonction to Γνῶθι σεαυτόν was likely to be understood in terms as "know your position, you are not a god (even if favoured by the fortune)". It may well be a sentence against "hubris", with little relationship with the particular interpretation Socrate had of this sentence in Delphi.

qntty 8y ago
According to who?
- p0nce 8y ago
  I read a book on this topic but forgot the exact reference. Not all books agreed on this when I tried finding it back.
ImprovedSilence 8y ago
Your understanding could be correct, but I've heard of others as well. I had heard/understood for it to be quite the opposite, based on speculation that the greek saying is likely taken from an Egyptian inscription "know thyself, and you will know the gods" aka the body is the temple of god. I believe Socrates expanded the statement to mean "the unexamined life is not worth living". all my sources are this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself

Tade0 8y ago

To me this lies at the heart of the problem with discrimination. People are being reduced to a set of categories instead of being seen as individuals - sometimes in good faith with consequences opposite to what was intended.

alexandercrohde 8y ago

I think there are a few distinct ideas to look at here: 1. Historical hubris of "authorities" : This isn't unique to psychology-- authorities in religion, philosophy, medicine have long declared the most absurd things with no observational basis (e.g. 4 humors). 2. Attempt to quantify people in general (personality being one dimension of this). Certainly mass measurement is useful sometimes - e.g. changes in baby birth-weights. However measurement can also be a tool for unjust reductionism. 3. The woeful oversimplicity of "personality research." The most respected model only has 5 attributes. Certainly there are many personality traits beyond just 5.