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The LM383 Story
- Taniwha 8y agoha! make sure you read the last paragraph
- Koshkin 8y agoApparently, the dog, who was prevented from barking, found some other way to have fun...
- gnarbarian 8y agoI love the design (or lack thereof) of this site. Courier font plus the old scans of photocopies make it feel like i'm reading an old xeroxed white paper (in a good way).
- weinzierl 8y agoI like it as well and find it delightfully easy on the eyes. Funny thing is that I remember that back in the day I hated those Courier-font-style publications. They always seemed hard to read compared to well type-set documents. And I never understood screenplay writers obsession with Courier 12[1]. I guess the web is so noisy and cluttered today, that even harsh black Courier on a white page is a relief. [1] Screenplays are usually written in Courier 12. I only know that because I sometimes read screenplays, for movies that interest me. It's fun and doesn't take as much time as it does to watch the movie.
- technofiend 8y agoCourier 12 is my go to for cutting and pasting terminal output because so much depends on fixed width fonts lining up properly and Outlook doesn't offer an exact match of xterm's 9x15 font.
- starbeast 8y ago>I only know that because I sometimes read screenplays, for movies that interest me. It's fun and doesn't take as much time as it does to watch the movie. I don't know why I find this as hilarious as I do, but thanks for sharing. Personally, I haven't read many screenplays, though I did read the original one for Monty Python and the Holy Grail and it bears very little resemblance to the final film. There's a whole section about buying pet ants from Harrods.
- weinzierl 8y agoIt wasn't in the Holy Grail, as far as I remember, but they actually did that sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmKped3yARQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmKped3yARQ
- starbeast 8y agoIt was in the first draft of the Holy Grail screenplay. Mr Arthur King finds the grail at the Harrods ant counter. I am guessing that the Harrods sketch is from the fourth series and is repurposing some of that material.
- cellularmitosis 8y ago"Either 45Watts to one or 90watts to both appears to pop the plastic off the silicon with out any apparent damage to the chip" Oooh, found my project for the weekend! "Now it is no longer possible to do this since the packaging department had redesigned the package" aww shucks
- dfox 8y agoThe package redesign remark is only directly relevant to NatSemi TO220-5 parts. There are various other TO220 packaged ICs (and discrete devices) made by other manufacturers which have exactly the described failure behavior.
- weinzierl 8y agoYou can pop LED's. Maybe not quite the same but also not as expensive.
- linker3000 8y agoCareful - many years ago one just missed my eye and cut my brow (unplanned overload; no dicking around involved)
- setquk 8y agoInternational Rectifier / Vishay IRF510’s do this. I know from experience building RF amps with them. Wear safety glasses!
- nicolaslem 8y agoI have great memories building small guitar amplifiers out of its little brother the LM386. Adding just a transistor to handle the high impedance of the guitar and a few cents worth of resistors and capacitors, one could build a tiny amplifier that once plugged to a 12" guitar speaker could make some serious rock'n'roll! I remember taking most design ideas from this gold mine: https://www.sonelec-musique.com/electronique_realisations.html https://www.sonelec-musique.com/electronique_realisations.ht... (unfortunately only in French)
- frabert 8y agoIt's widely known ad the "noisy cricket" amp I believe :)
- cellularmitosis 8y agoFans of this article will also enjoy Ken Sherriff's talk at Supercon last week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKi1xX7KKOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKi1xX7KKOI
- monochromatic 8y agoSomehow I expected him to be about 30 years older.
- aidos 8y agoOT but it seems like a good place to ask: this week I’ve been looking into making a wireless speaker similar to a Sonos play:1. In terms of the streaming mechanism is was going to use a raspberry pi running as a snapclient, wired to a class-d amp board and a, say, 3” driver. I thought I would find a load of projects using a pi + amp + driver in a small box combination, but I must be looking in the wrong place. Does anyone have any top tips of examples of setting something like this up? What amp / driver combination to use? I’m not looking for anything amazing, and I’m sure round 1 will be a learning experience, but any help appreciated.
- paulgerhardt 8y agoHiFiBerry is a good place to start: https://www.hifiberry.com/build/guides/hifiberry-streamer-in-a-classic-audio-case/ https://www.hifiberry.com/build/guides/hifiberry-streamer-in...
- sbradford26 8y agoI worked on almost the exact same idea for my senior design and the audio output from the dac built into the pi is terrible. The HiFiBerry board was a life saver.
- neya 8y agoI have built my own wireless bookshelf speakers using a combination of GE5654 Tubes, TPA3116D2 [0][1] and customized woofers and tweeters (Rosewood finish) [2]. I have to say, it really came out much better than I expected. [3] Here's how I did it: Last year, I visited Taiwan and China, I basically went to scout for speaker suppliers. I shortlisted a couple, but I realized, the popular they are, the pricier they are - regardless of the quality. Then, I realized something shocking. Actually, most speaker manufacturing is done in Nanjing (and one more location starting in N, forgot). These factories just stick the brand names on top and license it to these "big brands". And you pay a premium for that. So, I visited one direct supplier in Nanjing. It was a very small shop. I just walked in, placed an order for a pair. The whole set of 4 speakers (2 woofers and 2 mid-ranges) costed me in total of $200 US roughly. I purchased two 6.5" aluminium cone woofers and 2 golden capped full ranges. I like woofers with large Xmax, so I bought these for bass units. You can purchase from AliExpress too, although it's slightly pricier. But most speakers from China, contrary to popular belief, are very very high quality. In fact, the consumer audio space such as Sony, Samsung, etc. use much lower grades than what's normally found on AliExpress. As for amplifier, buy a half-decent board. Strip out all the cheap components, spend 3x the price of the board on really good quality components. For the TPA3116D2 board, this place is a good start [4] Hope this helps. Cheers. [0] https://www.instagram.com/p/BplhIIqHNhl/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BplhIIqHNhl/ [1] https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpl71mUHLbm/ https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpl71mUHLbm/ [2] https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm02F4OgAwX/ https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm02F4OgAwX/ [3] https://www.instagram.com/p/Bppl-dsHWuW/ https://www.instagram.com/p/Bppl-dsHWuW/ [4] http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyaudio-com-wiki/252663-tpa3116d2-boards.html http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyaudio-com-wiki/252663-tpa3...
- ianhowson 8y agoAs a kid, the LM383 had particular appeal: it was the highest-power amp chip available that ran off a 'safe' voltage. I didn't need to do any mains wiring.
- setquk 8y agoI was forever trying to find enough old car batteries to get more volts when I was a kid for precisely this reason. That was until I nearly burned the shed down charging one up. I was confined to alkalines then. Boo hiss.
- pwaivers 8y ago> "But it is humorous when the TDA2002 is often referred to as a replacement for the LM383. As a matter of fact, the LM383 is really a reverse engineering of the TDA2002. Credit should be given to the design engineer Bruno Murari who was working for SGS at the time. He was the one who came up with a way to do an automotive power amplifier using only five pins." This first paragraph is almost gibberish to me. In a good way. I just find it humorous that there are so many in-the-know words here.
- anyfoo 8y agoPlease don't be proud of ignorance. TDA200 and LM383 are obviously product or device names. Bruno Murari is obviously a person's name (a design engineer, as the sentence points out!), SGS is obviously a place where one works, likely a company. You should have no issues with the term "reverse engineering" if you are on Hacker News. So that only leaves "automotive power amplifier using only five pins". You probably know what "automotive" and "five pins" means, though, so even less than that. And then it's absolutely obvious that you won't know what a "power amplifier" is if you don't have some connection to electrical engineering, but it's useless to point that out. Imagine if every electrical engineer did that on articles on biology, chemistry or economic sciences.
- Dylan16807 8y agoOr to put it another way: These are names of things. The sentence structure makes that clear, and makes it clear how they relate. They are not "in-the-know" terms that are lacking definitions. It is not gibberish, just like the sentence "Jane gave Sue a letter from Bob" is not gibberish, even though nobody defined "Jane", "Sue", or "Bob".
- Johnny555 8y agoI don't do any analog work, so I wasn't familiar with the LM383 but it made perfect sense to me. From the article, I knew the LM383 was a 5 lead audio amp. From context in the sentence it was clear that the TDA2002 is a predecessor of the LM383. I don't know who Bruno Murari or SGS are, but again, context makes it clear that Murari worked at SGS when he designed the TDA2002. What part did you find to be gibberish?
- wpietri 8y agoWhen I read things like this it amazes me that computers work at all. As person who spends 99% of the time working on software, I so much take all of the EE level for granted.
- amelius 8y agoWell, a computer is basically a handful of gates, instantiated millions of times. So you only have to optimize those basic gates, and because they are (supposed to be) small, the design-space is small as well which simplifies optimization. The hard part is actually the parasitics that come into play (capacitive/inductive coupling between signal lines and the bulk), and dealing with that when synthesizing the design.
- sbradford26 8y agoDigital circuits also add the joys of clocks.
- squarefoot 8y agoEE aside, keeping the magic smoke confined inside the components requires also some good witchcraft knowledge:)
- yitchelle 8y agoThe real crazy stuff is RF electronics. That stuff is voodoo.
- madengr 8y agoIt’s not, you just need to know what you are doing.
- jcims 8y agoYou mean 'weird messed-up alien voodoo black magic stuff'? This is coming from Mike at mikeselectricstuff no less, lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyA2lWQrxwg&feature=youtu.be&t=826 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyA2lWQrxwg&feature=youtu.be... If this is intriguing, Shahriar from The Signal Path does know how this stuff works and does some amazing teardowns and repairs of six (and likely seven) figure RF equipment. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKxRARSpahF1Mt-2vbPug-g https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKxRARSpahF1Mt-2vbPug-g
- JollyFishing 8y agoShut up you smelly cunt.
- makomk 8y agoI love the part about how Chrysler somehow managed to defeat the thermal protection and destroy the chip via a heatsink that had just the right amount of thermal resistance to cause the transistor to heat up above its safe operating area and cook itself whilst keeping the thermal protection circuit cool enough not to trip.
- skykooler 8y agoThe paper from Chrysler is also fascinating. It's the first time I've seen "Side of a submarine" as an element in a circuit diagram.
- weinzierl 8y agoThis is a fantastic read. At the risk of being the guy that needs the joke explained, I can't make sense of following paragraph: > While the -6 volt supply spec caused little trouble for the LM383, it meant that all the other electronics in a car needed to voltage regulator that could provide protection. The other components need protection anyway. What is the connection to the LM383? > Some one made the joke that the lateral PNP's were so bad that even delco would not be able to destroy them. Why are bad lateral PNP's hard to destroy? Is he talking about PNP's inside the LM383 or inside other power supply circuitry that's supposed to provide protection? >A skunk works layout of a lateral PNP regulator ultimately made its way to delco. And sure enough, they could not destroy it. They loved it. And National Semiconductor got into the business of making PNP output regulators.
- jjoonathan 8y agoI think the -6V connection was simply that the LM383 designers were able to trivially integrate something the automotive industry considered non-trivial due to historical reliance on discrete processes and "build it sturdy" engineering. Nowadays chips are so highly integrated, so cheap, and so ubiquitous that it's hard to imagine dealing with messy power any other way, but it wasn't always so. I have vague intuition that p-type silicon has lower mobility and worse ohmic-junction performance than n-type silicon. A real semiconductor engineer should verify, but I believe the core of the dig is that the low performance acts like intrinsic protection: the PNPs simply couldn't conduct enough current to destroy themselves, at least not in the multitude of spectacular fashions as the NPNs.
- mbell 8y agoElectrons are the majority charge carriers for NPN vs holes in PNP which does mean that NPN transistors are faster, they also are usually a _bit_ better than PNP in other specs (beta, etc). However I don't think this was the main part of the joke, rather it's that lateral transistors are _way_ worse in pretty much every conceivable metric than vertical transistors save two - they are hard to destroy and cheap. So add 'lateral' to 'PNP' and you basically have 'worst possible transistor', so bad that you can't kill it.
- phkahler 8y agoLoad dump is not about connecting two batteries in series to achieve 24V. It's about (accidentally?) disconnecting the battery while charging from the alternator - which is an inductive source. When the load taking the current is disconnected that current is going to continue flowing through the vehicle electrical system which will cause a voltage spike until the current goes down. On a related note, I heard this 2nd hand from a guy who was talking to CAT about a module they wanted to have 80V over voltage protection for a crazy amount of time (minutes). My friend asked what scenario required that and it was something like this: Guy at a construction site can't start his bulldozer. He doesn't have jumper cables, but he's got an arc welder... I don't know if that actually happened but it would not surprise me.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- CamperBob2 8y agoYes, that was a weird mistake for someone in the author's position to make. That said, I may not understand what a 'load dump' condition is, myself -- I always thought it referred to the common case where a high current load is switched off abruptly, causing the voltage to spike until the alternator's regulator circuit can respond by reducing the field coil current. Disconnecting the battery would not be expected to cause such a condition, since the charging current is not all that high most of the time compared to other loads. I wouldn't expect much of anything to happen when disconnecting the battery from a running car. It should just keep running.
- icefo 8y agoThe battery acts as a big capacitor to smooth the voltage and depending at which speed the alternator is turning I'd expect the voltage to vary wildly. This may make weird things happen especially on newer cars
- neuralRiot 8y agoIn old cars it was a quick test to see if the alternator was working so some people still think that this is a good idea, IT IS NOT! newer alternators are controlled via LIN bus by the BCM so to generate more current when needed not just using battery voltage as a reference, if you disconnect the battery the voltage can go up to 30v even a bad battery or one with very low charge can make the charging system either shut off or go nuts.
- fernly 8y ago"My neighbor had just got a dog that was always barking. So I got tweeter, built up a simple 30kHz oscillator using a LM324. Set the two LM383 to swing rail to rail. Got a lantern battery that could put out the power. Then connected the tweeter." Paging Steve Gibson: somebody reinvented your dog silencer[1][2]! [1] https://www.grc.com/tqc/TheQuietCanine.htm https://www.grc.com/tqc/TheQuietCanine.htm [2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/portable-sound-blaster/4LI77KQM6xw https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/portable-sound-blast...
- justtopost 8y agoI think nearly every budding ee has built a variation of this at some point.
- jhallenworld 8y agoSo the new LM386 is the Nsiway NS8002. This chip is better in that the output capacitor it not required (it has two LM386s making an h-bridge). On lcsc.com, they are $0.0329 each for QTY=10, or $0.90 for boards (each) on eBay. They are nice if you don't want to deal with class-D switching noise. Cheap clock radios use them. They also use an 8-pin AM/FM digital radio IC: pins for 32 KHz crystal, I2C, antenna (loopstick for AM), and audio out. No coils, inductors or filters needed.