5 ms·

We should tear down whatever cruel fences and checkpoints exist that prevent people from leaving the Bay Area for more affordable places.

chaostheory 8y ago
A lot of Californians have already done this and continue to do this, which is why the natives of places like Portland, Austin, Boulder, and Boise complain about former CA residents causing housing prices to spike
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  None of those places have Prop 13 or California's environmental rules, so why can't they build appropriate density?
  - mattrices 8y ago
    Housing supply isn't very elastic.
  - jtbayly 8y ago
    Presumably it takes time and a continual influx is going to leave the demand constantly ahead of the catching up supply.
  - pmorici 8y ago
    Skilled construction workers are a limited resource.
    - mmirate 8y ago
      Skilled construction workers that aren't yet half-disabled, you mean. They have a shelf life, not unlike those of professional football players, stuntmen, longshoremen, firefighters, soldiers, pre-Industrial-Revolution farmers, etc. "Back-breaking" isn't just a figure-of-speech; modern medicine isn't (yet?) advanced enough that a rational actor should ever choose construction work over something else; and there are just enough desperate people around that I doubt anyone is willing to pay the true cost of construction-work to a not-as-desperate would-be construction-worker. The limited resource here, then, is actually: desperate people who are still smart enough to do construction work. I can't wait until construction becomes a non-human-powered activity - even if it still requires a human to control the machinery.
      - pmorici 8y ago
        Yeah, I don't buy this. The problem is more about the cyclical nature of the construction industry and the trend to push people to get a college degree and away from the trades which pay pretty well it's not as back breaking as you are making it out to be.
        mmirate 8y ago
        The cyclical nature would be overcome in the relevant areas if, as stated elsewhere in this thread, this exodus from the Bay Area is a slow and steady trickle. That trend is so powerful precisely because lots of trade-working parents don't want their kids to suffer the kinds of medical bills, chronic pains (with potential resulting opioid addictions) and stunted healthspans, that they do. Granted, construction is rather especially bad among the trades in this manner: things like welding are not quite as physically-demanding.
    - nradov 8y ago
      Most housing construction is done largely by unskilled / semi-skilled workers with a few skilled tradesmen to supervise and do the complicated parts.
  - claydavisss 8y ago
    They are. But it will be built in the context of a market economy. If you want someone to pre-build a city for a million people, try China, which still has "ghost cities".
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  I think complaining about housing prices is in vogue because saying "we just hate your politics" is very much not in vogue.
jinglebells 8y ago
Smart-ass answer, but the fences are financial and very real. If you have no money, how are you supposed to afford to travel to a completely different part of the country where you have no friends or family, find a job and rent an apartment?
- chaostheory 8y ago
  CA actually offers free bus passes for this. Well every state does - some like NY even offer plane tickets: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/20/bussed-out-america-moves-homeless-people-country-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/...
  - bvxvbxbxb 8y ago
    It's true but it's horrible. It's called homeless dumping, similar to hospital patient dumping. Pencil-pushers use it to play games with citizens they view as "liabilities," rather than as human-beings.
    - chaostheory 8y ago
      I agree since it doesn’t solve the real problem. I commented on it in a separate thread below
- georgeecollins 8y ago
  How do you think this country was settled-- by a bunch of wealthy people staying on a friends couch?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 8y ago
    By people with enough resources to move to an area without infrastructure and set it up. That takes money, not necessarily crazy money but far more than a the average homeless person has. PS: The first US colonies actually took a crazy amount of capital to set up. The west was largely settled by people in covered wagons which for the time period also represented a lot of capital ~50,000+$ in 2018 USD.
prolikewh0a 8y ago
Why do only the rich get to live in sprawling nice populated and interesting areas? It's literal segregation.
- mmirate 8y ago
  No, it's literal allocation of scarce resources. Their homes would do quite nicely as office-parks or some other commercial property, but those people both are rich enough and value their places irrationally enough, to [pay out their butts, and/or lose out on a big payout, to] stay there instead of taking their share of what developers think they can earn from that land.

chaostheory 8y ago

A lot of Californians have already done this and continue to do this, which is why the natives of places like Portland, Austin, Boulder, and Boise complain about former CA residents causing housing prices to spike

fjsolwmv 8y ago
None of those places have Prop 13 or California's environmental rules, so why can't they build appropriate density?
- mattrices 8y ago
  Housing supply isn't very elastic.
- jtbayly 8y ago
  Presumably it takes time and a continual influx is going to leave the demand constantly ahead of the catching up supply.
- pmorici 8y ago
  Skilled construction workers are a limited resource.
  - mmirate 8y ago
    Skilled construction workers that aren't yet half-disabled, you mean. They have a shelf life, not unlike those of professional football players, stuntmen, longshoremen, firefighters, soldiers, pre-Industrial-Revolution farmers, etc. "Back-breaking" isn't just a figure-of-speech; modern medicine isn't (yet?) advanced enough that a rational actor should ever choose construction work over something else; and there are just enough desperate people around that I doubt anyone is willing to pay the true cost of construction-work to a not-as-desperate would-be construction-worker. The limited resource here, then, is actually: desperate people who are still smart enough to do construction work. I can't wait until construction becomes a non-human-powered activity - even if it still requires a human to control the machinery.
    - pmorici 8y ago
      Yeah, I don't buy this. The problem is more about the cyclical nature of the construction industry and the trend to push people to get a college degree and away from the trades which pay pretty well it's not as back breaking as you are making it out to be.
      - mmirate 8y ago
        The cyclical nature would be overcome in the relevant areas if, as stated elsewhere in this thread, this exodus from the Bay Area is a slow and steady trickle. That trend is so powerful precisely because lots of trade-working parents don't want their kids to suffer the kinds of medical bills, chronic pains (with potential resulting opioid addictions) and stunted healthspans, that they do. Granted, construction is rather especially bad among the trades in this manner: things like welding are not quite as physically-demanding.
  - nradov 8y ago
    Most housing construction is done largely by unskilled / semi-skilled workers with a few skilled tradesmen to supervise and do the complicated parts.
- claydavisss 8y ago
  They are. But it will be built in the context of a market economy. If you want someone to pre-build a city for a million people, try China, which still has "ghost cities".
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
I think complaining about housing prices is in vogue because saying "we just hate your politics" is very much not in vogue.

jinglebells 8y ago

Smart-ass answer, but the fences are financial and very real. If you have no money, how are you supposed to afford to travel to a completely different part of the country where you have no friends or family, find a job and rent an apartment?

chaostheory 8y ago
CA actually offers free bus passes for this. Well every state does - some like NY even offer plane tickets: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/20/bussed-out-america-moves-homeless-people-country-study https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/...
- bvxvbxbxb 8y ago
  It's true but it's horrible. It's called homeless dumping, similar to hospital patient dumping. Pencil-pushers use it to play games with citizens they view as "liabilities," rather than as human-beings.
  - chaostheory 8y ago
    I agree since it doesn’t solve the real problem. I commented on it in a separate thread below
georgeecollins 8y ago
How do you think this country was settled-- by a bunch of wealthy people staying on a friends couch?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 8y ago
  By people with enough resources to move to an area without infrastructure and set it up. That takes money, not necessarily crazy money but far more than a the average homeless person has. PS: The first US colonies actually took a crazy amount of capital to set up. The west was largely settled by people in covered wagons which for the time period also represented a lot of capital ~50,000+$ in 2018 USD.

prolikewh0a 8y ago

Why do only the rich get to live in sprawling nice populated and interesting areas? It's literal segregation.

mmirate 8y ago
No, it's literal allocation of scarce resources. Their homes would do quite nicely as office-parks or some other commercial property, but those people both are rich enough and value their places irrationally enough, to [pay out their butts, and/or lose out on a big payout, to] stay there instead of taking their share of what developers think they can earn from that land.