14 ms·

A drug more benign than alcohol. Smoke too much, take a nap. Smoke too often, cut down and get sharp again. Drink too much, you get flu symptoms. Drink too mu

A drug more benign than alcohol. Smoke too much, take a nap. Smoke too often, cut down and get sharp again. Drink too much, you get flu symptoms. Drink too much too often, you get a new liver, or die.

narzu 8y ago
The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can do much better.
- mnx 8y ago
  Invent better drugs?
  - geff82 8y ago
    Invent a better way of life so reality is the coolest thing possible.
    - mbrock 8y ago
      There’s nothing other than reality. Drugs are part of reality. Have been for millenia.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Define "coolest". If parts of reality are better than others this is probably due to internal responses. Every bit of sense-data modifies the internal brain state. It follows that with sufficient control we can modify the brain, or the sense-data to create an experience akin to the coolest parts of whatever way of life we make. Your considerations on whether synthetic reality is better, and whether all reality is effectively synthetic will then inform your conclusion on this meaning a modified view can always in theory beat reality. In practice one will probably just chase a bigger high until the high is so risky that it eventually kills you.
    - deathclassic 8y ago
      Drugs are the some of tools I use to make reality the coolest thing possible.
- CosmicSteve 8y ago
  We can do much better? What the hell does that mean? More drug prohibition? Yeah, that's been working out just peachy. Portugal's decriminalization of all drugs has led to a sharp drop across the board in drug usage and an increase in effective rehabilitative outcomes.
  - rv-de 8y ago
    I believe that we should expect responsible behavior from adults. Only this way a society can also develop responsibility. By prohibiting everything that is dangerous (or just considered as such) humans never actually get a chance to grow up.
    - umvi 8y ago
      It's sort of a balancing act between building safety rails so that people don't accidentally fall off cliffs while hiking while also allowing people the agency to free climb El Cap if they so choose...
      - rv-de 8y ago
        You totally make a valid point. But I would literally remove all those safety rails. People just have to keep a safe distance from the edge of the cliff.
        moorhosj 8y ago
        Isn't it likely that the rails were put in place as a response to people not keeping a safe distance from the edge of the cliff? I often see this assumption that regulations appear from thin air as a way to keep people down. It seems more possible that they primarily come as a result of witnessing the reality of what happens with no regulations.
        rv-de 8y ago
        I think the prevalent assumption on HN is that every regulation can be traced back to some accident or mistake. It is impossible to put safety rails everywhere (both literally and metaphorically). Some people will try to make selfies on the edge and fall to their death - very tragic - but why do I have to keep those people alive with my tax payments or even be annoyed from the sight of a rail in the middle of nature. I also think that most accidents happen from overtrusting a safety gear - safety rails would sometimes fail. Typical example is the safety belt in cars - people suddenly drove faster. Or with helmets - rugby is less physically harmful than American football due to less protection. The examples refer to the mindset, though - of course I use safety belts but I also don't get too close to the edge of a cliff.
- zaroth 8y ago
  “Do much better” is a platitude - it conveys zero information as to what you actually believe should be done differently.
  - narzu 8y ago
    We should move towards the elimination of all drugs. Prohibition has worked wonderfully well for tobacco in many countries, cutting consumption in half and even more.
    - geff82 8y ago
      I just upvoted your comment because it is the truth and most probably you will be heavily downvoted for not being mainstream :)
      - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
        It is literally false. There are only two countries with actual tobacco prohibition, Bhutan and Turkmenistan, and only since 2005 and 2016, respectively. We have decades of evidence from dozens of countries that total prohibition of recreational drugs is disastrous. Sensible regulation is what's needed.
    - sigi45 8y ago
      And? It is not your choice to tell me if I wanna get buzzed or not. I don't mind others smoking. I mind wrong advertising, advertising to kids, cigarettbutts, the stink etc.
      - narzo 8y ago
        Actually yes, it's society's choice to tell you what you can do or not. Deal with it, or maybe go to live to Liberland.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- chickenfries 8y ago
  Prohibition doesn’t work. Legalization and regulation do. Alcohol and Tobacco are the proof. We can do much better than a cure which has shown to be worse than the disease.
  - geff82 8y ago
    Legalization mostly works in the way that more people consume it. (punishing the use does not lead anywhere either).
    - bryanlarsen 8y ago
      There are very definitely ways to do decriminalization that result in lowered usage: Portugal and heroin is the standard example.
    - sergiosgc 8y ago
      This was proven false by the Portuguese drug decriminalization program.
      - icebraining 8y ago
        Decriminalization is not legalization, though. It still makes it harder to access the stuff, for example, and risky to grow your own. Not that it's especially hard to buy pot in Portugal, but still, can't exactly get it at the corner store.
    - krrrh 8y ago
      Legalization of cannabis in the The Netherlands lowered usage amongst teens. Making pot less accessible to teens was one of Trudeau’s primary arguments for legalization in Canada. Street dealers have a lot of reasons to not ask for ID.
- jerf 8y ago
  We have done much better. Look at tobacco usage. It hasn't plummeted because it was outlawed. I don't think we'd necessarily get the same plummet with marijuana, because the health story isn't quite as uniformly bad, and I get the sense that pot users don't get as acclimated as cigarette users, who seem to be smoking not to feel good but to avoid withdrawal. (Just on the drug's own terms, tobacco is a really bad deal; the ratio of "high" to harm is just atrocious. If it wasn't so addictive nobody would use it on a regular basis.) But we could probably get some improvement if the messaging got more realistic. And by "improvement" I don't just mean "less", but better; less adolescents smoking some of their most important cognitive years away, more people using THC for correct medicinal uses, and if one chooses to smoke it recreationally, better informed choices. I'm in favor of legalization, because marijuana prohibition is not as bad as alcohol prohibition was, but it's the same sort of thing even if less of it. I still plan on telling my children quite strongly the best move is not to play.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    as an ex-smoker who sometimes relapses for short periods, for me it's not to avoid withdrawal. It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse to step out of the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my thoughts.
    - chosenbreed 8y ago
      > It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse to step out of the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my thoughts. Should we really need excuses to step out of the office to get some fresh air, collect our thoughts, etc for a few minutes? I think there is much to be said about cigarettes relieving stress and anxiety...
      - ThePadawan 8y ago
        As often as it is mocked, this is one of the things I really value in the whole "micro kitchens away from the open-plan office" lies.
      - 8y ago
- sigi45 8y ago
  Legalizing is doing better. Also society doesn't has the right to keep some drugs illegal while keeping others legal. Stop criminalising someone who chose another drug than you prefer. Illegal should it be when it harms others.
  - geff82 8y ago
    There is a big difference between criminalising/punishing people and hyping drugs as all those cannabis activists do. Smoking may be your personal choice - but I honestly think it would be bad for society if the majority did it. There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished: society as a whole might suffer.
    - folkrav 8y ago
      Those "cannabis activists" are most likely a (very vocal) minority... I don't know of anyone that _seriously_ hypes pot as a safe thing, and we have a lot of smokers here in Quebec (last official numbers were ~15% in 2015, pretty sure it's actually higher than that), so it's not hard to find one. There was probably "alcohol activists" back in prohibition, so I'd say this could also be a side-effect of its illegal status. > There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished There was also a law that prohibited alcohol for a time. I am also prohibited under Canadian law from pretending to practice witchcraft. Talking about differences, there is a big difference between legal and legitimate.
    - josefresco 8y ago
      "There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished: society as a whole might suffer." Hate to break it to you, but the "war on drugs" was and is really a war on minorities, and a war against alternatives to prescription drugs (among about a half dozen other nefarious reasons). When I was 12 I would have believed that "drugs are bad and what's why they're illegal" - I'm no longer 12.
    - sigi45 8y ago
      You know why its getting hyped? Because its fucking illegal! Have you ever seen a protestor doing a slightly active protest? No. You hype it. Srsly make it legal, disallow certain ways of advertising it, done.
- mcny 8y ago
  > The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can do much better. You're right. We can do better. I think it shows our hypocrisy. Nobody should get a fine or go to prison for possession of drugs. I think what we should focus on is distribution/sale of controlled substances without a proper label. I don't do drugs so maybe I am out of touch but this is my opinion. Possession of anything should not be a crime (improper storage of hazardous material is a different story). If you insist on sending people to prison for smoking pot, you might as well get ready to send me to prison for eating too much candy.
  - narzo 8y ago
    There already are many places where the selling of sugar and caffeine-ridden products is controlled.
    - pennaMan 8y ago
      You seem to be aggressively pushing a political agenda in this thread by making several consistent generalist statements without providing a single source of evidence.
    - mcny 8y ago
      > There already are many places where the selling of sugar and caffeine-ridden products is controlled. I think you are moving the goal posts here. For one, I fully support regulation. By regulation, I mean education and truth in advertising. People should absolutely have their assets stripped and sent to prison for life for false advertising and bribing/intimidating researchers to produce bad science or knowingly lying about their products in general. Additionally, I am not talking about putting people in prison for selling mislabeled candy. I absolutely support legislation that sends people to prison for life for selling candy that is not labeled properly or has a labeling inconsistent with its contents. I am talking about imprisoning ME for possessing sugar and caffeine-ridden products that I intend to eat or serve to my guests at home. Are you willing to arrest me for eating candy? Are you willing to search me "randomly" on the streets because you think I have candy in my pockets?
- stmfreak 8y ago
  The fact that my kids can get illegal drugs more easily than alcohol is what worries me. Making drugs illegal isn’t helping. Addicts need support services, not punishment.
  - noobly 8y ago
    This. Drug dealers don't care if you're 7 or 70. I could get a dimebag in 5 minutes anytime in high school. Alcohol, on the other hand, took weeks of planning to obtain.
- mylons 8y ago
  legislating morality isn't much better. it's draconian and often theocratic.
- thrower123 8y ago
  Tobacco shows probably the most effective way to reduce consumption of something - make it legal, but put heavy sin taxes on it. It's hard to keep a heavy cigarette habit going when a pack of Marlboros is like $10. I don't smoke marijuana, but I'd like to see it legalized, if for no other reason than to shift law enforcement resources to more important things - when people are dying every day from Fentanyl overdoses, busting pot smokers and growers is asinine.
  - josefresco 8y ago
    Heavy taxing and regulation will be (and is) a boon to the cannabis black market. In my state (MA), cannabis was legalized, but individual towns are preventing recreational shops from opening. The result? A booming, home-grown cannabis market.
- Taylor_OD 8y ago
  Why? Why shouldnt we legalize all drugs that are healthier than drugs we have already deemed healthy enough to be legal?
- honkycat 8y ago
  Humans have always done drugs. We have smoked pot specifically for thousands of years. Why do you want to keep adults from making decisions about what to put into their body?
- passwordreset 8y ago
  That argument is backwards. If marijuana is illegal for the stated reason that it has negative health affects, then everything that has worse affects should also be illegal.
- int_19h 8y ago
  Sure, we can do much better. For example, how about we recognize that bodily autonomy is a fundamental human right, and that includes deciding what to put into said body?
jlawson 8y ago
>Smoke too often, cut down and get sharp again. Unfortunately not. If you spend a long time smoking you'll end up permanently slower in the brain. Also, let's not forget our friend lung cancer.
- geff82 8y ago
  And also let's not forget that about everyone with big psychological problems in my peer group started to smoke early on (and developed mental health problems later).
  - kranner 8y ago
    That's just correlation. Maybe they started smoking early on because they had big psychological problems already.
    - mbrock 8y ago
      There might also be some risk of psychological damage when you use a criminalized substance that has anxiety as a common side effect. For example, it's easy to see how that could make you a bit reclusive. So anyone who's really concerned about the mental health of cannabis users is obliged to consider the damaging effects of its very criminality. (There are all kinds of other factors. Like cannabis use being correlated with higher trait openness, which has its own particular correlations with certain personality disorders, et cetera.)
      - toyg 8y ago
        Not to mention that such criminalized substance might well have been mishandled by criminal resellers with no regard for public health. Any time one buys a criminalised substance, it's like he was going to eat a box of unlabelled chocolate: maybe it's safe to eat, or maybe it's full of rat excrement - you don't know until it's too late.
    - geff82 8y ago
      It might "just" be a correlation but it might be heavily interconnected. If you have data proving your "just correlation", please provide them.
empath75 8y ago
I mostly agree with that, but I think we should definitely still be telling teens not to smoke pot, or really take any psychoactive drugs. And I say this as someone who has done a lot of them. Given that a lot of adults find it impossible to use drugs responsibly, teens definitely should be avoiding them. I also think we should be doing it honestly and not telling them that their brain is going to immediately leak out of their ears and they're going to start turning tricks on corners to pay for their next hit. "Hey, pot is going to temporarily make you dumber. Maybe don't use it a lot while you're trying to get through school. Thanks."
- sigi45 8y ago
  We should also tell them not to drink alcohol.
  - geff82 8y ago
    I do and live by my words.
- toyg 8y ago
  > we should definitely still be telling teens not to smoke pot, or really take any psychoactive drugs. And I say this as someone who has done a lot of them. Man has this annoying tendency not to believe facts unless they are experienced directly. You can tell teens what you want and they will still do what they want, especially if they know you did the same and ended up alright. I agree that honesty is the best policy, teenagers can smell hypocrisy from miles. Another good policy is to make experimentation safe, so everyone can make his or her mind up without risking potentially fatal or life-altering contact with the worst elements of society. I personally think public education should also have a dedicated subject on the topic of addiction, be it to drugs, food, gambling, videogames, and whatnot. An economic system based on profit will inevitably thrive on addiction, often at the expense of public health. Surviving contact with addictive impulses is a life skill that gets more and more essential every day.
  - mbrock 8y ago
sjg007 8y ago
Alcohol also impacts cognitive function as well. Both in the moment and for days after.
geff82 8y ago
Smoke once and it will be detectable in your body for weeks, drink once and no one will ever detect it in a linear number of hours after. The body has enzymes for alcohol, but non for pot. Drinking too much too often is another problem, of course.
- leesec 8y ago
  Detectable by who? Certainly not by anyone without a lab after a day or so.
- sigi45 8y ago
  And?
  - geff82 8y ago
    And? It's ok if you do not care. But I wanted to make clear that for the body there is a difference between alcohol and other drugs as alcohol, to the body, is mostly just another nutrient (I mean almost all ripe fruits contain a certain amount of alcohol, yet we eat them without problems).
    - supadupa888 8y ago
      You do know that there are endocannabinoids present in your body, right? And also drug tests for cannabis detect the presence of cannabinoid metabolites, not THC itself. Your opinion does not sound informed.
    - sigi45 8y ago
      Weed is very natural. Very old. Alcohol is responsible for many illnesses. It is NOT 'just another nutrient'. There is a difference between a few slight trails of alcohol vs. what we drink.
      - jfk13 8y ago
        "It's very natural" is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether (or to what degree) it may be harmful. Belladonna salad, anyone? Mushroom & pepperoni pizza made with Amanita phalloides?
lou1306 8y ago
Still, being "more benign" does not imply that it won't have any effect on a developing brain.
- heurist 8y ago
  I don't think anyone is saying it wouldn't. But it is worth noting that usage among teens in Colorado has been declining since legalization: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/11/following-marijuana-legalization-teen-drug-use-is-down-in-colorado/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/11/follo... Perhaps reducing the black market and reassuring that the option will be open to them down the line makes the drug less accessible and less immediately desirable.
  - dclowd9901 8y ago
    The implication was there and it was worth calling out. I’ve heard surprisingly little about the negative effects of marijuana in general conversation, to the extent that it seems to be above reproach (for some unknown reason).
- mylons 8y ago
  brake dust causes dementia. if you live in a city, you're killing yourself from teh air you breath.
  - dclowd9901 8y ago
    Totally the same as actively choosing to smoke weed.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    The lesson there should be "brake dust is a big problem," not "marijuana is not."
simion314 8y ago
AFAIK the smoke is still a cause for cancer.
- moate 8y ago
  So is the carbon on cooked foods. It's not good to breath solid carbon particles into your lungs, or ingest them into your body. But most people find it reasonable to cook food, because it tastes better. That's not to say that these aren't things people should be aware of. They should know this and it will help them make the adult choices they want (smoke vs consumables vs other methods). Just so you know, yes, smoking it causes cancer but it's not on anywhere near the same level as smoking tobacco cigarettes due to how tobacco is treated.
  - simion314 8y ago
    I am not a smoker so I do not know the details but isn't electronic cigarettes better because they have no smoke, the smoke is the main bad part? I may be wrong and tabacoo causes cancer even without the smoke? If pot is legalized it should have same packaging as cigarettes that tells clear that smoke causes cancer, and also should tell all the side effects (because I see here on HN how good weed is, especially for creativity but the person is not mentioning all possible downsides)
    - moate 8y ago
      Vaporizing is better than smoking because it creates fewer carbon particles. Also there's fewer carcinogens (we're pretty sure on this one, but people like to argue about it) in pot than in tobacco. Another point is that you don't need to inhale at all, you could ingest since THC is alcohol and fat soluble. Many people find this to be a good way to imbibe because it's a more controlled dosage (if I use 1 LB of the same type of weed to make my edibles, each cookie should have the same effect on me vs smoking which is always some level of guess work) The packaging would likely exist as it does for all drugs/controlled substances with a lot of warnings about health risks and impaired driving. There is MUCH hand wringing about making sure everyone is WELL aware that just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good.
5trokerac3 8y ago
"more benign" !== "benign" Everyone I know that smokes daily (a lot of people) is less cognitive than those I know who don't smoke, in every arena except artistic pursuits. And not everyone reacts to weed the same way. I decided to quit when I recognized a lessened ability to solve complex coding questions the day after smoking.
- tosser8398b9 8y ago
  I’ve had many programming design breakthroughs while lifted. Write ‘em down, check ‘em the next day - many remain awesome (and some are confused). Something about the heightened ability to focus on a single thing, deeply. As you say - it’s a deeply personal thing. I also never actually smoke anymore. Edibles FTW
  - 5trokerac3 8y ago
    One might consider that an artistic/creative revelation. Weed is definitely good for that. "Why is this code breaking?" Not so much...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - RIMR 8y ago
      For you. Carl Sagan touted pot's ability to help him with abstract mathematics, so YMMV.
      - fhood 8y ago
        Abstract mathematics, and finding bugs, are not terribly closely related skills.
        vokep 8y ago
        They are in that they both require abstract thinking, working in rigid systems.
IMTDb 8y ago
Watch the MRI scan of a 35 yo alcoholic and the MRI scan of a 35 yo heavy pot smoker then do the comparison again. The liver can more or less heal itself until it's too late. The brain, not so much.
- josefresco 8y ago
  88,000* people die each year from alcohol-related causes in the United States. Clearly there's more to worry about than your "self healing liver". Also, citation needed for your claim about MRI/brain activity. * https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-co...
  - IMTDb 8y ago
    I never ever said that alcohol is nothing to worry about. I just said that the liver heals better than the brain Please refrain from putting word in my mouth (or anyone) in the future. Sample Citation for the MRI : https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/40/2/287/1944376 https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/40/2/... And if your next point is "yeah but we know nothing about the long lasting effects after your stop", nature has you covered : https://www.nature.com/articles/npp201744 https://www.nature.com/articles/npp201744
    - moate 8y ago
      From the Abstract: "Future longitudinal studies could help determine whether cannabis use contributes to these observed shape differences or whether they are biomarkers of a vulnerability to the effects of cannabis that predate its misuse." Also, the liver doesn't "heal better" than the brain. If anything, the problem is that Cirrhosis isn't really detected until too late. I would counter that more things cause brain damage than liver damage. Finally, the last study you point to references two other studies that found OPPOSITE results in its discussion, so trying to say that is the definitive answer is scientifically disingenuous. Your data doesn't even help your cause dude. It just shows that further research is needed before going out and making "case closed" proclamations.
dfxm12 8y ago
The article is about middle and high school aged kids. Many places don't let them drink alcohol for similar reasons described in the article either.
gammateam 8y ago
ITT: people talking about anecdotes and rebuttals to anecdotes using different time scales, time frames, usage scales, age ranges, statistics in different ranges and also totally incorrect information good one, hackernews
- LMYahooTFY 8y ago
  Agreed, if these anecdotes weren't stated in the same manner empirical evidence is typically stated I would not be concerned. It makes for a muddy discussion at best.
  - theWheez 8y ago
    Ideally legalization will remove this pop science and anecdotal experience presented as fact, as more studies can nail down what this drug is actually doing to people.

narzu 8y ago

The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can do much better.

mnx 8y ago
Invent better drugs?
- geff82 8y ago
  Invent a better way of life so reality is the coolest thing possible.
  - mbrock 8y ago
    There’s nothing other than reality. Drugs are part of reality. Have been for millenia.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Define "coolest". If parts of reality are better than others this is probably due to internal responses. Every bit of sense-data modifies the internal brain state. It follows that with sufficient control we can modify the brain, or the sense-data to create an experience akin to the coolest parts of whatever way of life we make. Your considerations on whether synthetic reality is better, and whether all reality is effectively synthetic will then inform your conclusion on this meaning a modified view can always in theory beat reality. In practice one will probably just chase a bigger high until the high is so risky that it eventually kills you.
  - deathclassic 8y ago
    Drugs are the some of tools I use to make reality the coolest thing possible.
CosmicSteve 8y ago
We can do much better? What the hell does that mean? More drug prohibition? Yeah, that's been working out just peachy. Portugal's decriminalization of all drugs has led to a sharp drop across the board in drug usage and an increase in effective rehabilitative outcomes.
- rv-de 8y ago
  I believe that we should expect responsible behavior from adults. Only this way a society can also develop responsibility. By prohibiting everything that is dangerous (or just considered as such) humans never actually get a chance to grow up.
  - umvi 8y ago
    It's sort of a balancing act between building safety rails so that people don't accidentally fall off cliffs while hiking while also allowing people the agency to free climb El Cap if they so choose...
    - rv-de 8y ago
      You totally make a valid point. But I would literally remove all those safety rails. People just have to keep a safe distance from the edge of the cliff.
      - moorhosj 8y ago
        Isn't it likely that the rails were put in place as a response to people not keeping a safe distance from the edge of the cliff? I often see this assumption that regulations appear from thin air as a way to keep people down. It seems more possible that they primarily come as a result of witnessing the reality of what happens with no regulations.
        rv-de 8y ago
        I think the prevalent assumption on HN is that every regulation can be traced back to some accident or mistake. It is impossible to put safety rails everywhere (both literally and metaphorically). Some people will try to make selfies on the edge and fall to their death - very tragic - but why do I have to keep those people alive with my tax payments or even be annoyed from the sight of a rail in the middle of nature. I also think that most accidents happen from overtrusting a safety gear - safety rails would sometimes fail. Typical example is the safety belt in cars - people suddenly drove faster. Or with helmets - rugby is less physically harmful than American football due to less protection. The examples refer to the mindset, though - of course I use safety belts but I also don't get too close to the edge of a cliff.
zaroth 8y ago
“Do much better” is a platitude - it conveys zero information as to what you actually believe should be done differently.
- narzu 8y ago
  We should move towards the elimination of all drugs. Prohibition has worked wonderfully well for tobacco in many countries, cutting consumption in half and even more.
  - geff82 8y ago
    I just upvoted your comment because it is the truth and most probably you will be heavily downvoted for not being mainstream :)
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      It is literally false. There are only two countries with actual tobacco prohibition, Bhutan and Turkmenistan, and only since 2005 and 2016, respectively. We have decades of evidence from dozens of countries that total prohibition of recreational drugs is disastrous. Sensible regulation is what's needed.
  - sigi45 8y ago
    And? It is not your choice to tell me if I wanna get buzzed or not. I don't mind others smoking. I mind wrong advertising, advertising to kids, cigarettbutts, the stink etc.
    - narzo 8y ago
      Actually yes, it's society's choice to tell you what you can do or not. Deal with it, or maybe go to live to Liberland.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
chickenfries 8y ago
Prohibition doesn’t work. Legalization and regulation do. Alcohol and Tobacco are the proof. We can do much better than a cure which has shown to be worse than the disease.
- geff82 8y ago
  Legalization mostly works in the way that more people consume it. (punishing the use does not lead anywhere either).
  - bryanlarsen 8y ago
    There are very definitely ways to do decriminalization that result in lowered usage: Portugal and heroin is the standard example.
  - sergiosgc 8y ago
    This was proven false by the Portuguese drug decriminalization program.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Decriminalization is not legalization, though. It still makes it harder to access the stuff, for example, and risky to grow your own. Not that it's especially hard to buy pot in Portugal, but still, can't exactly get it at the corner store.
  - krrrh 8y ago
    Legalization of cannabis in the The Netherlands lowered usage amongst teens. Making pot less accessible to teens was one of Trudeau’s primary arguments for legalization in Canada. Street dealers have a lot of reasons to not ask for ID.
jerf 8y ago
We have done much better. Look at tobacco usage. It hasn't plummeted because it was outlawed. I don't think we'd necessarily get the same plummet with marijuana, because the health story isn't quite as uniformly bad, and I get the sense that pot users don't get as acclimated as cigarette users, who seem to be smoking not to feel good but to avoid withdrawal. (Just on the drug's own terms, tobacco is a really bad deal; the ratio of "high" to harm is just atrocious. If it wasn't so addictive nobody would use it on a regular basis.) But we could probably get some improvement if the messaging got more realistic. And by "improvement" I don't just mean "less", but better; less adolescents smoking some of their most important cognitive years away, more people using THC for correct medicinal uses, and if one chooses to smoke it recreationally, better informed choices. I'm in favor of legalization, because marijuana prohibition is not as bad as alcohol prohibition was, but it's the same sort of thing even if less of it. I still plan on telling my children quite strongly the best move is not to play.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  as an ex-smoker who sometimes relapses for short periods, for me it's not to avoid withdrawal. It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse to step out of the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my thoughts.
  - chosenbreed 8y ago
    > It relieves stress and anxiety, and also gives me an excuse to step out of the office for a few minutes for a break or to collect my thoughts. Should we really need excuses to step out of the office to get some fresh air, collect our thoughts, etc for a few minutes? I think there is much to be said about cigarettes relieving stress and anxiety...
    - ThePadawan 8y ago
      As often as it is mocked, this is one of the things I really value in the whole "micro kitchens away from the open-plan office" lies.
    - 8y ago
sigi45 8y ago
Legalizing is doing better. Also society doesn't has the right to keep some drugs illegal while keeping others legal. Stop criminalising someone who chose another drug than you prefer. Illegal should it be when it harms others.
- geff82 8y ago
  There is a big difference between criminalising/punishing people and hyping drugs as all those cannabis activists do. Smoking may be your personal choice - but I honestly think it would be bad for society if the majority did it. There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished: society as a whole might suffer.
  - folkrav 8y ago
    Those "cannabis activists" are most likely a (very vocal) minority... I don't know of anyone that _seriously_ hypes pot as a safe thing, and we have a lot of smokers here in Quebec (last official numbers were ~15% in 2015, pretty sure it's actually higher than that), so it's not hard to find one. There was probably "alcohol activists" back in prohibition, so I'd say this could also be a side-effect of its illegal status. > There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished There was also a law that prohibited alcohol for a time. I am also prohibited under Canadian law from pretending to practice witchcraft. Talking about differences, there is a big difference between legal and legitimate.
  - josefresco 8y ago
    "There is a reason that under current law using/selling drugs is punished: society as a whole might suffer." Hate to break it to you, but the "war on drugs" was and is really a war on minorities, and a war against alternatives to prescription drugs (among about a half dozen other nefarious reasons). When I was 12 I would have believed that "drugs are bad and what's why they're illegal" - I'm no longer 12.
  - sigi45 8y ago
    You know why its getting hyped? Because its fucking illegal! Have you ever seen a protestor doing a slightly active protest? No. You hype it. Srsly make it legal, disallow certain ways of advertising it, done.
mcny 8y ago
> The fact that alcohol and tobacco are legal doesn't mean we should legalise all drugs that are somewhat healthier than alcohol and tobacco. I think we can do much better. You're right. We can do better. I think it shows our hypocrisy. Nobody should get a fine or go to prison for possession of drugs. I think what we should focus on is distribution/sale of controlled substances without a proper label. I don't do drugs so maybe I am out of touch but this is my opinion. Possession of anything should not be a crime (improper storage of hazardous material is a different story). If you insist on sending people to prison for smoking pot, you might as well get ready to send me to prison for eating too much candy.
- narzo 8y ago
  There already are many places where the selling of sugar and caffeine-ridden products is controlled.
  - pennaMan 8y ago
    You seem to be aggressively pushing a political agenda in this thread by making several consistent generalist statements without providing a single source of evidence.
  - mcny 8y ago
    > There already are many places where the selling of sugar and caffeine-ridden products is controlled. I think you are moving the goal posts here. For one, I fully support regulation. By regulation, I mean education and truth in advertising. People should absolutely have their assets stripped and sent to prison for life for false advertising and bribing/intimidating researchers to produce bad science or knowingly lying about their products in general. Additionally, I am not talking about putting people in prison for selling mislabeled candy. I absolutely support legislation that sends people to prison for life for selling candy that is not labeled properly or has a labeling inconsistent with its contents. I am talking about imprisoning ME for possessing sugar and caffeine-ridden products that I intend to eat or serve to my guests at home. Are you willing to arrest me for eating candy? Are you willing to search me "randomly" on the streets because you think I have candy in my pockets?
stmfreak 8y ago
The fact that my kids can get illegal drugs more easily than alcohol is what worries me. Making drugs illegal isn’t helping. Addicts need support services, not punishment.
- noobly 8y ago
  This. Drug dealers don't care if you're 7 or 70. I could get a dimebag in 5 minutes anytime in high school. Alcohol, on the other hand, took weeks of planning to obtain.
mylons 8y ago
legislating morality isn't much better. it's draconian and often theocratic.
thrower123 8y ago
Tobacco shows probably the most effective way to reduce consumption of something - make it legal, but put heavy sin taxes on it. It's hard to keep a heavy cigarette habit going when a pack of Marlboros is like $10. I don't smoke marijuana, but I'd like to see it legalized, if for no other reason than to shift law enforcement resources to more important things - when people are dying every day from Fentanyl overdoses, busting pot smokers and growers is asinine.
- josefresco 8y ago
  Heavy taxing and regulation will be (and is) a boon to the cannabis black market. In my state (MA), cannabis was legalized, but individual towns are preventing recreational shops from opening. The result? A booming, home-grown cannabis market.
Taylor_OD 8y ago
Why? Why shouldnt we legalize all drugs that are healthier than drugs we have already deemed healthy enough to be legal?
honkycat 8y ago
Humans have always done drugs. We have smoked pot specifically for thousands of years. Why do you want to keep adults from making decisions about what to put into their body?
passwordreset 8y ago
That argument is backwards. If marijuana is illegal for the stated reason that it has negative health affects, then everything that has worse affects should also be illegal.
int_19h 8y ago
Sure, we can do much better. For example, how about we recognize that bodily autonomy is a fundamental human right, and that includes deciding what to put into said body?

jlawson 8y ago

>Smoke too often, cut down and get sharp again. Unfortunately not. If you spend a long time smoking you'll end up permanently slower in the brain. Also, let's not forget our friend lung cancer.

geff82 8y ago
And also let's not forget that about everyone with big psychological problems in my peer group started to smoke early on (and developed mental health problems later).
- kranner 8y ago
  That's just correlation. Maybe they started smoking early on because they had big psychological problems already.
  - mbrock 8y ago
    There might also be some risk of psychological damage when you use a criminalized substance that has anxiety as a common side effect. For example, it's easy to see how that could make you a bit reclusive. So anyone who's really concerned about the mental health of cannabis users is obliged to consider the damaging effects of its very criminality. (There are all kinds of other factors. Like cannabis use being correlated with higher trait openness, which has its own particular correlations with certain personality disorders, et cetera.)
    - toyg 8y ago
      Not to mention that such criminalized substance might well have been mishandled by criminal resellers with no regard for public health. Any time one buys a criminalised substance, it's like he was going to eat a box of unlabelled chocolate: maybe it's safe to eat, or maybe it's full of rat excrement - you don't know until it's too late.
  - geff82 8y ago
    It might "just" be a correlation but it might be heavily interconnected. If you have data proving your "just correlation", please provide them.

empath75 8y ago

I mostly agree with that, but I think we should definitely still be telling teens not to smoke pot, or really take any psychoactive drugs. And I say this as someone who has done a lot of them. Given that a lot of adults find it impossible to use drugs responsibly, teens definitely should be avoiding them. I also think we should be doing it honestly and not telling them that their brain is going to immediately leak out of their ears and they're going to start turning tricks on corners to pay for their next hit. "Hey, pot is going to temporarily make you dumber. Maybe don't use it a lot while you're trying to get through school. Thanks."

sigi45 8y ago
We should also tell them not to drink alcohol.
- geff82 8y ago
  I do and live by my words.
toyg 8y ago
> we should definitely still be telling teens not to smoke pot, or really take any psychoactive drugs. And I say this as someone who has done a lot of them. Man has this annoying tendency not to believe facts unless they are experienced directly. You can tell teens what you want and they will still do what they want, especially if they know you did the same and ended up alright. I agree that honesty is the best policy, teenagers can smell hypocrisy from miles. Another good policy is to make experimentation safe, so everyone can make his or her mind up without risking potentially fatal or life-altering contact with the worst elements of society. I personally think public education should also have a dedicated subject on the topic of addiction, be it to drugs, food, gambling, videogames, and whatnot. An economic system based on profit will inevitably thrive on addiction, often at the expense of public health. Surviving contact with addictive impulses is a life skill that gets more and more essential every day.
- mbrock 8y ago

sjg007 8y ago

Alcohol also impacts cognitive function as well. Both in the moment and for days after.

geff82 8y ago

Smoke once and it will be detectable in your body for weeks, drink once and no one will ever detect it in a linear number of hours after. The body has enzymes for alcohol, but non for pot. Drinking too much too often is another problem, of course.

leesec 8y ago
Detectable by who? Certainly not by anyone without a lab after a day or so.
sigi45 8y ago
And?
- geff82 8y ago
  And? It's ok if you do not care. But I wanted to make clear that for the body there is a difference between alcohol and other drugs as alcohol, to the body, is mostly just another nutrient (I mean almost all ripe fruits contain a certain amount of alcohol, yet we eat them without problems).
  - supadupa888 8y ago
    You do know that there are endocannabinoids present in your body, right? And also drug tests for cannabis detect the presence of cannabinoid metabolites, not THC itself. Your opinion does not sound informed.
  - sigi45 8y ago
    Weed is very natural. Very old. Alcohol is responsible for many illnesses. It is NOT 'just another nutrient'. There is a difference between a few slight trails of alcohol vs. what we drink.
    - jfk13 8y ago
      "It's very natural" is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether (or to what degree) it may be harmful. Belladonna salad, anyone? Mushroom & pepperoni pizza made with Amanita phalloides?

lou1306 8y ago

Still, being "more benign" does not imply that it won't have any effect on a developing brain.

heurist 8y ago
I don't think anyone is saying it wouldn't. But it is worth noting that usage among teens in Colorado has been declining since legalization: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/11/following-marijuana-legalization-teen-drug-use-is-down-in-colorado/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/11/follo... Perhaps reducing the black market and reassuring that the option will be open to them down the line makes the drug less accessible and less immediately desirable.
- dclowd9901 8y ago
  The implication was there and it was worth calling out. I’ve heard surprisingly little about the negative effects of marijuana in general conversation, to the extent that it seems to be above reproach (for some unknown reason).
mylons 8y ago
brake dust causes dementia. if you live in a city, you're killing yourself from teh air you breath.
- dclowd9901 8y ago
  Totally the same as actively choosing to smoke weed.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  The lesson there should be "brake dust is a big problem," not "marijuana is not."

simion314 8y ago

AFAIK the smoke is still a cause for cancer.

moate 8y ago
So is the carbon on cooked foods. It's not good to breath solid carbon particles into your lungs, or ingest them into your body. But most people find it reasonable to cook food, because it tastes better. That's not to say that these aren't things people should be aware of. They should know this and it will help them make the adult choices they want (smoke vs consumables vs other methods). Just so you know, yes, smoking it causes cancer but it's not on anywhere near the same level as smoking tobacco cigarettes due to how tobacco is treated.
- simion314 8y ago
  I am not a smoker so I do not know the details but isn't electronic cigarettes better because they have no smoke, the smoke is the main bad part? I may be wrong and tabacoo causes cancer even without the smoke? If pot is legalized it should have same packaging as cigarettes that tells clear that smoke causes cancer, and also should tell all the side effects (because I see here on HN how good weed is, especially for creativity but the person is not mentioning all possible downsides)
  - moate 8y ago
    Vaporizing is better than smoking because it creates fewer carbon particles. Also there's fewer carcinogens (we're pretty sure on this one, but people like to argue about it) in pot than in tobacco. Another point is that you don't need to inhale at all, you could ingest since THC is alcohol and fat soluble. Many people find this to be a good way to imbibe because it's a more controlled dosage (if I use 1 LB of the same type of weed to make my edibles, each cookie should have the same effect on me vs smoking which is always some level of guess work) The packaging would likely exist as it does for all drugs/controlled substances with a lot of warnings about health risks and impaired driving. There is MUCH hand wringing about making sure everyone is WELL aware that just because it's legal doesn't mean it's good.

5trokerac3 8y ago

"more benign" !== "benign" Everyone I know that smokes daily (a lot of people) is less cognitive than those I know who don't smoke, in every arena except artistic pursuits. And not everyone reacts to weed the same way. I decided to quit when I recognized a lessened ability to solve complex coding questions the day after smoking.

tosser8398b9 8y ago
I’ve had many programming design breakthroughs while lifted. Write ‘em down, check ‘em the next day - many remain awesome (and some are confused). Something about the heightened ability to focus on a single thing, deeply. As you say - it’s a deeply personal thing. I also never actually smoke anymore. Edibles FTW
- 5trokerac3 8y ago
  One might consider that an artistic/creative revelation. Weed is definitely good for that. "Why is this code breaking?" Not so much...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - RIMR 8y ago
    For you. Carl Sagan touted pot's ability to help him with abstract mathematics, so YMMV.
    - fhood 8y ago
      Abstract mathematics, and finding bugs, are not terribly closely related skills.
      - vokep 8y ago
        They are in that they both require abstract thinking, working in rigid systems.

IMTDb 8y ago

Watch the MRI scan of a 35 yo alcoholic and the MRI scan of a 35 yo heavy pot smoker then do the comparison again. The liver can more or less heal itself until it's too late. The brain, not so much.

josefresco 8y ago
88,000* people die each year from alcohol-related causes in the United States. Clearly there's more to worry about than your "self healing liver". Also, citation needed for your claim about MRI/brain activity. * https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-co...
- IMTDb 8y ago
  I never ever said that alcohol is nothing to worry about. I just said that the liver heals better than the brain Please refrain from putting word in my mouth (or anyone) in the future. Sample Citation for the MRI : https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/40/2/287/1944376 https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/40/2/... And if your next point is "yeah but we know nothing about the long lasting effects after your stop", nature has you covered : https://www.nature.com/articles/npp201744 https://www.nature.com/articles/npp201744
  - moate 8y ago
    From the Abstract: "Future longitudinal studies could help determine whether cannabis use contributes to these observed shape differences or whether they are biomarkers of a vulnerability to the effects of cannabis that predate its misuse." Also, the liver doesn't "heal better" than the brain. If anything, the problem is that Cirrhosis isn't really detected until too late. I would counter that more things cause brain damage than liver damage. Finally, the last study you point to references two other studies that found OPPOSITE results in its discussion, so trying to say that is the definitive answer is scientifically disingenuous. Your data doesn't even help your cause dude. It just shows that further research is needed before going out and making "case closed" proclamations.

dfxm12 8y ago

The article is about middle and high school aged kids. Many places don't let them drink alcohol for similar reasons described in the article either.

gammateam 8y ago

ITT: people talking about anecdotes and rebuttals to anecdotes using different time scales, time frames, usage scales, age ranges, statistics in different ranges and also totally incorrect information good one, hackernews

LMYahooTFY 8y ago
Agreed, if these anecdotes weren't stated in the same manner empirical evidence is typically stated I would not be concerned. It makes for a muddy discussion at best.
- theWheez 8y ago
  Ideally legalization will remove this pop science and anecdotal experience presented as fact, as more studies can nail down what this drug is actually doing to people.