10 ms·

Apple finally announces an overhauled Mac mini

208 points by evo_9 8y ago

brad0 8y ago
Big changes: - 8th gen 4 core CPU in the base model, upgradable to 6 core - 16 - 64 GB SO-DIMM RAM - Upgradable to 10 gig ethernet - 4 thunderbolt 3 ports
- ThrowawayR2 8y ago
  The 64GB of RAM is the interesting part. Competing mini-desktops from HP (EliteDesk 800 mini) and Dell (Optiplex 70x0) already have a 6 core CPU option but are limited to 32GB of RAM.
  - sethhochberg 8y ago
    Even Intel's NUC line tops out at 32GB and I don't think they have 10gbit ethernet available, either. Makes me wonder how much of this change is specifically because Apple knows there are people running racks full of Mac Minis doing mobile CI and builds for iOS apps, so they needed to bump up the density for datacenter applications a bit...
  - mbell 8y ago
    Most likely they all support 64GB of RAM. What has allowed Apple to offer 64GB is that Samsung released 32GB SO-DIMM modules this summer based on their new 10nm process. It's still almost impossible to find them aftermarket though.
    - yuhong 8y ago
      They are based on the new 16Gbit DDR4 chips.
ssijak 8y ago
Oh my, this specs are really nice. 64gb of ram and 6 cores with the SSD that it comes with is really not "mini"-like specs that we are used to.
- xienze 8y ago
  I’m guessing this is the new Mac Pro. Just add an eGPU and max out the other specs — I have a feeling the price will be right up there with regular Mac Pro pricing. Edit: yep, maxes out around $3900. Without an eGPU. Edit again: I know asking about downvotes is a downvotable offense, but what’s the deal? What did I say that was wrong or even inflammatory? This thing tops out in Mac Pro price territory, I would not be at all surprised if this becomes the new Mac Pro with the addition of an eGPU.
  - ascagnel_ 8y ago
    Maxing out the CPU (comes w/ 256GB SSD & 8GB RAM) is $1300USD. Bumping to 16GB RAM totals out to $1500USD; bumping to 64GB RAM totals up to $2700USD.
    - xienze 8y ago
      Now add in the 2TB SSD and 10gb Ethernet.
      - ascagnel_ 8y ago
        The 10Gb ethernet was an extra $100, the 2TB SSD an extra $1400. If you want a fully loaded, i7/64GB DDR4 RAM/2TB SSD/10G ethernet system, it'll cost you $4200USD, with more than half of that from RAM & SSD pricing.
        xienze 8y ago
        OK, so more than I thought. I think I was in the education store. So I stand by what I said — maxes out in Mac Pro price territory.
  - bitL 8y ago
    You can get a quad-core 28W NUC for $500 with TB3, so there is already a cheap precedent that is as powerfull (though limited to 32GB RAM with current SO-DIMMs).
cupofjoakim 8y ago
It's not for me but I'm happy that this little machine gets to continue with new iterations. I guess the only question is "who is it for" and "why is it for them"?
- SteveNuts 8y ago
  We use them as servers around the office, mainly to store local caches of Apple updates so we don't saturate our internet bandwidth.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
  I'm considering it as a mid-tier machine to run ableton/logic on as well as hopefully play some not-too-demanding games through Wine. Not a super hardcore gamer but I usually play roguelikes that are available on GOG for macOS or that are supported by Wine/Proton. Would be nice to run this with No Man's Sky through Wine on an eGPU.
  - zellyn 8y ago
    Yep, also considering one of these for music software.
- teekert 8y ago
  Add an eGPU (Razor Core X?), some discs via Thunderbolt and a nice screen and it will eat deeply into iMac and MacPro customers providing upgradability via the peripherals without the price of an internal screen and touchbar (hopefully, I am very curious about the price of the 6-core i7 with 64GB RAM, 2TB SSD, and 10gigE model.
  - jtr_47 8y ago
    Too bad the thunderbolt is not running over a fiber connection. That would have been a better upgrade and made the external devices, GPU etc. even better.
    - wmf 8y ago
3dfan 8y ago
Is it possible / does it make sense to use this as a Debian machine?
- heartbreak 8y ago
  If you want a mini-ITX form factor Debian machine, you're probably better off skipping the Apple tax and building one yourself. Pros of this Mac mini appear to include: seamlessly runs macOS and high build quality. The internal components (with the exception of specific Apple chips) are commodity. So if you don't want macOS support, you can just make it yourself.
  - m_mueller 8y ago
    disk en-/decryption on the T2 chip would be interesting feature that you're missing out on - or is that kinda thing also commodity nowadays through accelerator cards?
    - TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
      Do you really need special hardware support? Apple's older FDE using Intel's AES-NI instructions available on all their CPUs was plenty fast.
    - wmf 8y ago
      Most SSDs support Opal although good luck finding Linux distro support for it.
    - mark-r 8y ago
      Where would you find the software for the T2 chip without using macOS?
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- teekert 8y ago
  Perhaps but why pay the Apple premium just for the case design when you can also opt for something like https://www.pcworld.com/article/3267074/computers/intel-hades-canyon-nuc-nuc8i7hvk-review.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/3267074/computers/intel-hade...
protomyth 8y ago
If the SSD is user expandable, then its damn near perfect, but I get the feeling they pointed out the DIMM and not the SSD as replaceable.
- wmf 8y ago
  Because of the way the T2 works, storage will never be replaceable/expandable in those Macs.
  - mcphage 8y ago
    How so?
    - mcrute 8y ago
      Normally an SSD has an on-board flash controller that communicates something like NVME or SATA to the host and a protocol like CFI to the actual NAND chips, it will also map from disk blocks (OS unit of storage) to NAND columns and cells using an internally stored table. These chips do a lot of other mundane things like wear leveling for NAND, clearing written cells, etc. If the T2 is taking the place of this controller and communicating directly with the NAND chips it would be at best duplicative of an external SSD controller and at worst completely incompatible.
      - mcphage 8y ago
        Thanks :-)
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- mcrute 8y ago
  Based on the marketing photos on the Apple site it sure looks like the NAND is soldered to the board and not socketed.
- jamesfmilne 8y ago
thebasa 8y ago
8th gen = Kaby Lake = H.265 hardware acceleration correct?
- oever 8y ago
  yes
spudlyo 8y ago
I'm typing this comment on my 2012 quad core i7 Mac Mini with 16G of RAM and two 2.5" 2TB SSD drives. This machine still works great for all of my Logic music production needs. One of the things I love about this machine is how I've been able to perform my own memory and disk upgrades over the years to keep the machine relevant. Looking forward to reading the iFixit teardown to see to what degree folks will be able to upgrade the machine's memory and disk in the 2018 model. I'm most excited about getting four Thunderbolt 3 ports, not necessarily for the increased bandwidth (you don't need a ton of bandwidth for audio) but for the ability power external peripherals.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  You can upgrade the memory, they’re standard DIMMs. It’s still unknown whether the storage can be upgraded.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - ssijak 8y ago
    You can plugin SSD disks over USB-C. Not the maximum speed possible, but good enough.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
      Thunderbolt would be even better, right?
      - spudlyo 8y ago
        For sure. There are external Thunderbolt 3 NVMe SSD enclosures out there that can read and write in excess of 2000 MB/sec, which is reasonably close to what an Apple internal soldered-on SSD can do. Given the prices of internal storage from Apple (a $1400 upgrade for 2TB ouch!) I think this is the route I would go.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
yla92 8y ago
I feel like $800 for an i3/8gb machine is on the expensive side. Given that it is probably the best option to run OSX smoothly, maybe, it's worth it.
- xienze 8y ago
  Don’t forget 128GB storage. Just a tad overpriced.
- asdgionioasdg1 8y ago
  https://www.amazon.com/Kingdel-Powerful-Desktop-Computer-Bluetooth/dp/B07D8Y2F7D/ref=sr_1_7?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1540915005&sr=1-7&keywords=kingdel&refinements=p_n_feature_fourteen_browse-bin%3A2057441011 https://www.amazon.com/Kingdel-Powerful-Desktop-Computer-Blu... Yeah, it's ridiculous. Two minutes of searching and I found a box with a better CPU, 16 GiB of RAM, 512 GiB of flash, and 1 TiB of HDD for a slightly lower price. The Apple Tax is real, at least for their desktops. (I have never seen the point of these tiny PCs. You can throw a desktop in a corner where you'll never have to see it. If I'm allowed to buy a normal case, I'm sure I could trounce that Mac for about $400.)
  - millstone 8y ago
    The computer you linked is very different than the Mac Mini. The Kingdel is a knockoff NUC, basically laptop components. Notice how it maxes out at 16 GB of RAM, no Thunderbolt, and its fastest chip is still a 25TDP U-series which is probably slower in practice than what the Mac Mini starts with (looks like a 65 watt i3 8100). The Mac Mini is indeed expensive for its specs, but it's also extremely small for those specs: desktop components in a sub-mini-ITX form factor. If you wanted to compare it to similar PCs, you're looking at the custom offerings from Zotac, etc. which also command a high premium.
    - bitL 8y ago
      Zotac is able to put a quadcore i5 with GTX1070 into a silent case of previous Mac Mini size, making it a very capable gaming machine even today.
post_break 8y ago
Who remembers when the Mac Mini was $499?
- saagarjha 8y ago
  They were also very, very outdated.
  - runjake 8y ago
    Not at the time. I bought my (lowest end model) mid-2011 Mac Mini new at $499. I just retired it a couple months ago. So, a 7 year life span. It wasn't a bad investment. And I could still use it for stuff if I wanted. It just won't run the latest and greatest macOS.
    - robin_reala 8y ago
      They were $599 (well US at least) base in 2011.
      - ken 8y ago
        It was up to $699 in 2011: https://web.archive.org/web/20110316161754/http://www.apple.com/macmini/ https://web.archive.org/web/20110316161754/http://www.apple.... And back down to $499 in 2018: https://web.archive.org/web/20181030141405/https://www.apple.com/mac-mini https://web.archive.org/web/20181030141405/https://www.apple...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  Or just generally when savings were passed on to consumers.
- robin_reala 8y ago
  That was in 2005. Inflation already takes that up to equivalent $650 in 2018.
ryandrake 8y ago
Too bad that with Mojave’s release they already dropped official support for some other Mac Minis, like my 2010 unibody one. I realize you can still get it to work by rolling the dice with a 3rd party binary patch, but jeez, the thing is only 8 years old.
- ttflee 8y ago
  > only 8 years old The Moore‘s Law is dead.
  - singularity2001 8y ago
    No, it lives on in GPUs etc, see iPad pro / nvidia
- ascagnel_ 8y ago
  Honest question: how many other pieces of electronics do you have that are still getting support after 8 years of use? I could understand appliances and cars, where the maintenance is mechanical wear & tear and not software, but anything with software generally has a 3-5 year EOL at this point.
  - Brometheus 8y ago
    Well. You can still install Windows 10 on it, can you? We did this with all the Macs at my old office. Shame.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    I could go out and buy Windows or download Linux, and run them on this and even older computers, which is unfortunately probably what I’ll end up doing at some point. I like Apple, and am pretty bought in to their ecosystem. Their blacklisting of older hardware is one of my few complaints with them, really.
  - cwyers 8y ago
    Most 8 year old PCs can run Windows 10.
cik 8y ago
I still have the 2011 Mac Mini powering my house... and services. We were seriously hoping this might be useful - but it fails to meet our needs. My company buys Kingdels on Amazon, and adds HD and RAM. Same box literally ends up costing 50% of the price (CAD) compared to the equivalent Mac Mini I just tricked out on the Apple site. Given that we have no Mac specific needs (but need a Unix), I'm just sad.
berbec 8y ago
This is using a 8th generation chip. Since the 9th gen chips are drop-in compatible, does this mean you can hack your way to a Mac Mini with an i9-9900k 8-core/12-thread monster?
- joecool1029 8y ago
  Probably not. This is 2018 and everything gets soldered down now.
- TwoNineA 8y ago
  They are probably laptop CPUs, 45 watt version, different socket.
  - stephenr 8y ago
    I believe he said expressly that they're higher-power desktop CPUS (reference that the older model used mobile ones).
- douglasfshearer 8y ago
  CPUs available are: * Core i3-8100 [0] * Core i5-8500 [1] * Core i7-8700 [2] All of these are listed as having embedded version available, which I would expect Apple to be using, since embedded versions of desktop SKUs in the iMac. [0] http://ark.intel.com/products/126688 http://ark.intel.com/products/126688 [1] http://ark.intel.com/products/129939 http://ark.intel.com/products/129939 [2] http://ark.intel.com/products/126686 http://ark.intel.com/products/126686
- belltaco 8y ago
  i9-9900k has 16 threads, not 12.
orbitingpluto 8y ago
That is some serious price gouging on SSD upgrades, +$720 for 1 TB. Best Buy price matched several 1 TB SSDs (WD Blue, SATA, 2.5") for $150 (Canadian) apiece recently. And the price difference between different consumer SSD types is minimal.
- TwoNineA 8y ago
  I think you are comparing SATA to NVME SSDs, which is unfair. Not saying Apple isn't pricing them way too high.
  - orbitingpluto 8y ago
    Yes, I am comparing different types of SSDs. Did the fact that I explicitly stated that I was doing so confuse you somehow? Paying an additional $720 to upgrade to 1 TB when a 1TB NVMe SSD goes for $400 seems ridiculous. But I really have no problem with that price gouging, as long as one can rip the thing apart and upgrade it on one's own.
    - Shish2k 8y ago
      >> You're comparing different types of SSDs > I explicitly stated that I was doing so Where? I've re-read your post several times thinking that there must be some mention of NVME vs SATA somewhere in it that my eyes are just skipping over, but I can't see it :S
      - orbitingpluto 8y ago
        "And the price difference between different consumer SSD types is minimal." Samsung 860 EVO 2.5" SATA III 2.5in SSD, 250GB $109.99 Samsung 860 EVO M.2 SATA III SSD, 250GB $109.99 Samsung 860 EVO Series mSATA SSD Solid State Drive, 250GB $109.99 Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 PCI-E x4 SSD, 250GB $129.99 With greater capacities, the price difference gets larger. But at 1 TB it is still less than a factor of 2.
        8y ago
m_mueller 8y ago
Looking at these config prices... wow: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/3.6ghz-quad-core-processor-128gb# https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/3.6ghz-quad-core... 128GB SSD base, +800 USD to go to 1TB? +600 USD to go from 8GB to 32GB? +300USD to go to the six core CPU? brutal. I was considering this for a moment instead of building a PC rig at home because I really like macOS, but that's just too much.
- collias 8y ago
  Same. I primarily use a desktop for gaming these days, but also do iOS development. My dream machine would be a Mac Mini with an eGPU. I'm looking to do a gaming rig rebuild soon, and was excited to see a new Mac Mini before I made my decision. These prices though....I'll just build a mini-ATX myself.
  - mseidl 8y ago
    I have a mini atx build for Linux(I'm just a 100% linux guy), but I was considering a used mac mini or something for music stuff. I currently have to use a windows vm for a couple of instruments. But the state of music software on Linux isn't the best.
  - singularity2001 8y ago
    don't they even show a eGpu in the demo?
- cwyers 8y ago
  I mean, Apple always charges Apple prices. I'm more surprised that the base price is so high. They couldn't do a 4gb/64gb version with a lower-end CPU?
  - xvector 8y ago
    > They couldn't do a 4gb/64gb version with a lower-end CPU? The PR would be far, far worse.
- mamcx 8y ago
prolepunk 8y ago
I started reading article hoping for something interesting from Apple, but then I compare Mac Mini specs to the mini-itx system I've built back in February. - AMD Ryzen 2400g (4cores 8 threads) - 16 GB DDR4 Ram - 256GB M.2 Nvme - 1TB 2.5" HDD - I can add more memory, internal storage, and still have a spare 16xPCI slot. This runs linux and cost less than $800 Canadian dollars all in. Not impressed. Everything is upgradable and in a case that 3 times as big as mac one.
- yborg 8y ago
  >case 3x as big I don't think you are getting the whole "Mini' concept here.
  - prolepunk 8y ago
    I do, this computer is still a lot smaller than the usual ATX tower. I've spend the whole post describing what you get in terms of price/performance when you make that trade-off.
  - rrmm 8y ago
    3 times as big is still a comfortable size for a small pc and a small price to pay for using commodity/replaceable parts. Most of the people who might buy a mini would probably buy a mini that was 3x as big. At least for me, what I really don't want to pay for is a screen and keyboard (as I would have to pay for with an imac/macbook/etc).
stephenr 8y ago
I've been waiting for a 2018 Mac desktop of some kind. I have a stock (as in, bought off the shelf, no cpu/memory upgrades) 2018 MBP15 that works for now (as my 2011 had another fan failure, its repaired but not reliable enough for work) but I'm getting tired of small screens/fewer cores etc. I thought it was going to be an iMac, but maybe this is the ticket. If I can just find a decent monitor to pair with it here (Thailand) it might be a good option.
kkylin 8y ago
Did anyone see if they said whether these machines are user-upgradable? I have two late-2012 models that I've been very happpy with (one at home, one at work). Compared to the 2014 "update" the best part is being able to put in memory & drives yourself. (Couldn't watch the keynote and haven't seen this said explicitly anywhere...)
- _ph_ 8y ago
  It seem that the RAM is user-upgradeable, the SSD not. But as it has 4 thunderbolt ports, EGPU and external storage are possible.
brian-armstrong 8y ago
Too little, too late. The Intel NUC is far and away the better computer in this form factor - it's smaller, faster and cheaper. Also there's a better chance that it will receive an upgrade sooner than 6 years from now.
- millstone 8y ago
  The Mac Mini is using full desktop components, not NUC laptop components. That's why it supports 4 times as much RAM, Thunderbolt 3, and a 65 watt CPU compared to the 25 watt NUCs.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > That's why it supports 4 times as much RAM 2× (64GB v. 32GB) > Thunderbolt 3, NUC also supports Thunderbolt 3 > and a 65 watt CPU Well, okay, that one is right.
  - brian-armstrong 8y ago
    The NUC CPU is 45 watt, IIRC
    - graedus 8y ago
      Depends on which model. I got one earlier this year with a 7th gen core i5 processor: NUC7i5BNH with a i5-7260U, 2 cores, 4 threads, 15W TDP. Now you can get them with 8th gen core processors like these (among others): i5-8259U, 4 cores, 8 threads, 28W TDP i7-8559U, 4 cores, 8 threads, 28W TDP i7-8705G, 4 cores, 8 threads, 65W package TDP i7-8809G, 4 cores, 8 threads, 100W package TDP The last two have fancy integrated graphics and only come in a larger form factor with a skull on the side. edit: conciseness, formatting
  - Const-me 8y ago
    > compared to the 25 watt NUCs Modern high-end NUCs use 100W CPU, this one: https://ark.intel.com/products/130409/Intel-Core-i7-8809G-Processor-with-Radeon-RX-Vega-M-GH-graphics-8M-Cache-up-to-4-20-GHz- https://ark.intel.com/products/130409/Intel-Core-i7-8809G-Pr...
aczerepinski 8y ago
Matching the specs of my 5 year old iMac puts this at $1,900, and I'm not even sure if the new graphics card is comparable to the GTX 775M that Apple included 5 years ago.
- Const-me 8y ago
  > I'm not even sure if the new graphics card is comparable to the GTX 775M I think you’re right about that. Apparently, GeForce GTX 775M delivers up to 2142 GFlops, UHD Graphics 630 only up to 423 GFlops. That’s 5 times difference in raw GPU performance.
  - aczerepinski 8y ago
    What a bummer. My iMac cost $2k 5 years ago and included a nice 27 inch monitor. It's astonishing to me that $2k spent on the brand new Mac today would have severe downgrades like this.
- ummonk 8y ago
  Wouldn't the new iMac be a better comparison? The Mac mini has always been hamstrung by its small form factor.
  - aczerepinski 8y ago
    I don’t want a better comparison, I want to replace my iMac with a headless desktop for under $3,000. I have a second big monitor at my desk for my work laptop and I’d love to reclaim the real estate that the iMac is taking up. It was Apple’s choice to hamstring themselves with that form factor, not mine. Do I need to wait for Jonny Ive to retire to buy a normal $1500-$2000 Mac that I can use for programming, photo editing, casual gaming, etc?
teilo 8y ago
It looks like the RAM is user-upgradable.
ryankrage77 8y ago
I still use a 2006 mac mini for headless server stuff, and a 2011 model to make use of macOS. I would love to buy this for its form factor, but at those prices I'd be better off buying myself a tricked-out desktop. I could probably go threadripper + DDR4 and a 2080 Ti for those prices.
chvid 8y ago
I know it has been too long and the price is upped. But I am going to buy this. For an always on server at home nothing beats the Mac mini. Excellent os, excellent build quality, modest power usage, silent.
- sgt 8y ago
  Have a Mac Mini at home that's been running 24/7 since 2009. Truly worth every cent.
  - chvid 8y ago
    Me too - I have one of the first intel models - it is still running - the only thing that kills them is that they eventually become obsolete.
    - Joeri 8y ago
      That’s my experience as well. My g4 mini still boots up fine, it’s just that a 1 ghz ppc and 1 gb ram is basically a raspberry pi so even as a linux machine it isn’t particularly useful.
    - russh 8y ago
      Same here - The only thing that kills them is Apple.
- phlowbieuq 8y ago
  I'm interested to know what you run on this server...plex? torrent client? file server? on-prem file backups (if so, which software you use)? I have a small Intel NUC running windows that runs always-on and does some of these things just fine, but I'm always looking for some excuses to upgrade a gadget.
  - AnonC 8y ago
    I would like to use this as a file server and a torrent client. Does anyone here have some idea about the SSD endurance or can explain with some numbers, how long it'd last for the specific SSDs Apple is using (or even generic SSDs as a comparison)? Let's assume I write 2TB of data every month on to a 512GB SSD or 256GB SSD. I tend to use such machines for a decade or longer (for as long as it doesn't break down completely), and considering that right now using Linux on these (with access to these SSDs) is difficult, I fear I might be out of up-to-date options in the future.
wildpeaks 8y ago
If not for the fact you need Apple hardware to develop iOS apps and that my older mac mini is excruciatingly slow with the newer macOS, I wouldn't even consider this.
wufufufu 8y ago
My guess is that it's going to overheat before you can effectively use the six core i7 option. Also, I'm assuming their pricing is based on market research. So by pricing the 2TB version at +$1400 (which you could put into a non-macOS desktop build for like $300), they're implying you're either quite rich, ignorant, or you're spending corporate or academic money. As a desktop option, why does this seem more expensive than the Macbook Pro?
- timcederman 8y ago
  The SSDs they use are almost an order of magnitude faster than regular consumer grade ones you can get for just over $300, and I was surprised last time I priced up something with decent performance that it cost about the same whether buying from Apple or not.
  - wufufufu 8y ago
    They have almost 6GB/s write speeds? Also, you can get a 2TB PCIE SSD that writes at 2000MB/s for $600. https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/501128/Samsung-SSD-970-EVO-2TB https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/501128/Samsung-SSD-9...
    - timcederman 8y ago
      Most drives I've looked at get around 400mb a second (I also use https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/ https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/), and the SSDs Apple use are 2500mb/s, so 6.25x faster. I priced up the high performance 2TB SSD setup about a year ago, so I'll concede that data point is out of date.
      - wufufufu 8y ago
        I agree $1400 seems more reasonable when compared to PCIE SSD prices.
wildchild 8y ago
I am really surprised they offer it with SSD by default /s.
thevagrant 8y ago
I used to be a big Apple fan but with the prices the way they are, I can't do it anymore.
AnonC 8y ago
I'm kinda disappointed that there's only a single SSD option and no way to add another cheaper drive in it. That could've allowed someone to go with the lowest internal SSD drive. I understand Apple wanted to make and keep this one small, but the ability to an internal hard drive could've helped a lot on the cost front and also helped on the speed front (compared to an external drive). In the past, I've replaced the DVD drive with another internal hard drive (though that was at a slightly lower speed).
voltagex_ 8y ago
Can anyone make a guess at whether you lose one of the Thunderbolt ports to have the 10gbE port? Alternatively, would you hit a bottleneck if you somehow managed to max out all three Thunderbolt ports?
nikolay 8y ago
What a wasted potential! The pricing is a huge show stopper!

208 points by evo_9 8y ago

Big changes: - 8th gen 4 core CPU in the base model, upgradable to 6 core - 16 - 64 GB SO-DIMM RAM - Upgradable to 10 gig ethernet - 4 thunderbolt 3 ports

ThrowawayR2 8y ago
The 64GB of RAM is the interesting part. Competing mini-desktops from HP (EliteDesk 800 mini) and Dell (Optiplex 70x0) already have a 6 core CPU option but are limited to 32GB of RAM.
- sethhochberg 8y ago
  Even Intel's NUC line tops out at 32GB and I don't think they have 10gbit ethernet available, either. Makes me wonder how much of this change is specifically because Apple knows there are people running racks full of Mac Minis doing mobile CI and builds for iOS apps, so they needed to bump up the density for datacenter applications a bit...
- mbell 8y ago
  Most likely they all support 64GB of RAM. What has allowed Apple to offer 64GB is that Samsung released 32GB SO-DIMM modules this summer based on their new 10nm process. It's still almost impossible to find them aftermarket though.
  - yuhong 8y ago
    They are based on the new 16Gbit DDR4 chips.

ssijak 8y ago

Oh my, this specs are really nice. 64gb of ram and 6 cores with the SSD that it comes with is really not "mini"-like specs that we are used to.

xienze 8y ago
I’m guessing this is the new Mac Pro. Just add an eGPU and max out the other specs — I have a feeling the price will be right up there with regular Mac Pro pricing. Edit: yep, maxes out around $3900. Without an eGPU. Edit again: I know asking about downvotes is a downvotable offense, but what’s the deal? What did I say that was wrong or even inflammatory? This thing tops out in Mac Pro price territory, I would not be at all surprised if this becomes the new Mac Pro with the addition of an eGPU.
- ascagnel_ 8y ago
  Maxing out the CPU (comes w/ 256GB SSD & 8GB RAM) is $1300USD. Bumping to 16GB RAM totals out to $1500USD; bumping to 64GB RAM totals up to $2700USD.
  - xienze 8y ago
    Now add in the 2TB SSD and 10gb Ethernet.
    - ascagnel_ 8y ago
      The 10Gb ethernet was an extra $100, the 2TB SSD an extra $1400. If you want a fully loaded, i7/64GB DDR4 RAM/2TB SSD/10G ethernet system, it'll cost you $4200USD, with more than half of that from RAM & SSD pricing.
      - xienze 8y ago
        OK, so more than I thought. I think I was in the education store. So I stand by what I said — maxes out in Mac Pro price territory.
- bitL 8y ago
  You can get a quad-core 28W NUC for $500 with TB3, so there is already a cheap precedent that is as powerfull (though limited to 32GB RAM with current SO-DIMMs).

cupofjoakim 8y ago

It's not for me but I'm happy that this little machine gets to continue with new iterations. I guess the only question is "who is it for" and "why is it for them"?

SteveNuts 8y ago
We use them as servers around the office, mainly to store local caches of Apple updates so we don't saturate our internet bandwidth.
SOLAR_FIELDS 8y ago
I'm considering it as a mid-tier machine to run ableton/logic on as well as hopefully play some not-too-demanding games through Wine. Not a super hardcore gamer but I usually play roguelikes that are available on GOG for macOS or that are supported by Wine/Proton. Would be nice to run this with No Man's Sky through Wine on an eGPU.
- zellyn 8y ago
  Yep, also considering one of these for music software.
teekert 8y ago
Add an eGPU (Razor Core X?), some discs via Thunderbolt and a nice screen and it will eat deeply into iMac and MacPro customers providing upgradability via the peripherals without the price of an internal screen and touchbar (hopefully, I am very curious about the price of the 6-core i7 with 64GB RAM, 2TB SSD, and 10gigE model.
- jtr_47 8y ago
  Too bad the thunderbolt is not running over a fiber connection. That would have been a better upgrade and made the external devices, GPU etc. even better.
  - wmf 8y ago

3dfan 8y ago

Is it possible / does it make sense to use this as a Debian machine?

heartbreak 8y ago
If you want a mini-ITX form factor Debian machine, you're probably better off skipping the Apple tax and building one yourself. Pros of this Mac mini appear to include: seamlessly runs macOS and high build quality. The internal components (with the exception of specific Apple chips) are commodity. So if you don't want macOS support, you can just make it yourself.
- m_mueller 8y ago
  disk en-/decryption on the T2 chip would be interesting feature that you're missing out on - or is that kinda thing also commodity nowadays through accelerator cards?
  - TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
    Do you really need special hardware support? Apple's older FDE using Intel's AES-NI instructions available on all their CPUs was plenty fast.
  - wmf 8y ago
    Most SSDs support Opal although good luck finding Linux distro support for it.
  - mark-r 8y ago
    Where would you find the software for the T2 chip without using macOS?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
teekert 8y ago
Perhaps but why pay the Apple premium just for the case design when you can also opt for something like https://www.pcworld.com/article/3267074/computers/intel-hades-canyon-nuc-nuc8i7hvk-review.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/3267074/computers/intel-hade...

protomyth 8y ago

If the SSD is user expandable, then its damn near perfect, but I get the feeling they pointed out the DIMM and not the SSD as replaceable.

wmf 8y ago
Because of the way the T2 works, storage will never be replaceable/expandable in those Macs.
- mcphage 8y ago
  How so?
  - mcrute 8y ago
    Normally an SSD has an on-board flash controller that communicates something like NVME or SATA to the host and a protocol like CFI to the actual NAND chips, it will also map from disk blocks (OS unit of storage) to NAND columns and cells using an internally stored table. These chips do a lot of other mundane things like wear leveling for NAND, clearing written cells, etc. If the T2 is taking the place of this controller and communicating directly with the NAND chips it would be at best duplicative of an external SSD controller and at worst completely incompatible.
    - mcphage 8y ago
      Thanks :-)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
mcrute 8y ago
Based on the marketing photos on the Apple site it sure looks like the NAND is soldered to the board and not socketed.
jamesfmilne 8y ago

thebasa 8y ago

8th gen = Kaby Lake = H.265 hardware acceleration correct?

oever 8y ago
yes

spudlyo 8y ago

I'm typing this comment on my 2012 quad core i7 Mac Mini with 16G of RAM and two 2.5" 2TB SSD drives. This machine still works great for all of my Logic music production needs. One of the things I love about this machine is how I've been able to perform my own memory and disk upgrades over the years to keep the machine relevant. Looking forward to reading the iFixit teardown to see to what degree folks will be able to upgrade the machine's memory and disk in the 2018 model. I'm most excited about getting four Thunderbolt 3 ports, not necessarily for the increased bandwidth (you don't need a ton of bandwidth for audio) but for the ability power external peripherals.

saagarjha 8y ago
You can upgrade the memory, they’re standard DIMMs. It’s still unknown whether the storage can be upgraded.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ssijak 8y ago
  You can plugin SSD disks over USB-C. Not the maximum speed possible, but good enough.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
    Thunderbolt would be even better, right?
    - spudlyo 8y ago
      For sure. There are external Thunderbolt 3 NVMe SSD enclosures out there that can read and write in excess of 2000 MB/sec, which is reasonably close to what an Apple internal soldered-on SSD can do. Given the prices of internal storage from Apple (a $1400 upgrade for 2TB ouch!) I think this is the route I would go.
  - saagarjha 8y ago

yla92 8y ago

I feel like $800 for an i3/8gb machine is on the expensive side. Given that it is probably the best option to run OSX smoothly, maybe, it's worth it.

xienze 8y ago
Don’t forget 128GB storage. Just a tad overpriced.
asdgionioasdg1 8y ago
https://www.amazon.com/Kingdel-Powerful-Desktop-Computer-Bluetooth/dp/B07D8Y2F7D/ref=sr_1_7?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1540915005&sr=1-7&keywords=kingdel&refinements=p_n_feature_fourteen_browse-bin%3A2057441011 https://www.amazon.com/Kingdel-Powerful-Desktop-Computer-Blu... Yeah, it's ridiculous. Two minutes of searching and I found a box with a better CPU, 16 GiB of RAM, 512 GiB of flash, and 1 TiB of HDD for a slightly lower price. The Apple Tax is real, at least for their desktops. (I have never seen the point of these tiny PCs. You can throw a desktop in a corner where you'll never have to see it. If I'm allowed to buy a normal case, I'm sure I could trounce that Mac for about $400.)
- millstone 8y ago
  The computer you linked is very different than the Mac Mini. The Kingdel is a knockoff NUC, basically laptop components. Notice how it maxes out at 16 GB of RAM, no Thunderbolt, and its fastest chip is still a 25TDP U-series which is probably slower in practice than what the Mac Mini starts with (looks like a 65 watt i3 8100). The Mac Mini is indeed expensive for its specs, but it's also extremely small for those specs: desktop components in a sub-mini-ITX form factor. If you wanted to compare it to similar PCs, you're looking at the custom offerings from Zotac, etc. which also command a high premium.
  - bitL 8y ago
    Zotac is able to put a quadcore i5 with GTX1070 into a silent case of previous Mac Mini size, making it a very capable gaming machine even today.

post_break 8y ago

Who remembers when the Mac Mini was $499?

saagarjha 8y ago
They were also very, very outdated.
- runjake 8y ago
  Not at the time. I bought my (lowest end model) mid-2011 Mac Mini new at $499. I just retired it a couple months ago. So, a 7 year life span. It wasn't a bad investment. And I could still use it for stuff if I wanted. It just won't run the latest and greatest macOS.
  - robin_reala 8y ago
    They were $599 (well US at least) base in 2011.
    - ken 8y ago
      It was up to $699 in 2011: https://web.archive.org/web/20110316161754/http://www.apple.com/macmini/ https://web.archive.org/web/20110316161754/http://www.apple.... And back down to $499 in 2018: https://web.archive.org/web/20181030141405/https://www.apple.com/mac-mini https://web.archive.org/web/20181030141405/https://www.apple...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
Or just generally when savings were passed on to consumers.
robin_reala 8y ago
That was in 2005. Inflation already takes that up to equivalent $650 in 2018.

ryandrake 8y ago

Too bad that with Mojave’s release they already dropped official support for some other Mac Minis, like my 2010 unibody one. I realize you can still get it to work by rolling the dice with a 3rd party binary patch, but jeez, the thing is only 8 years old.

ttflee 8y ago
> only 8 years old The Moore‘s Law is dead.
- singularity2001 8y ago
  No, it lives on in GPUs etc, see iPad pro / nvidia
ascagnel_ 8y ago
Honest question: how many other pieces of electronics do you have that are still getting support after 8 years of use? I could understand appliances and cars, where the maintenance is mechanical wear & tear and not software, but anything with software generally has a 3-5 year EOL at this point.
- Brometheus 8y ago
  Well. You can still install Windows 10 on it, can you? We did this with all the Macs at my old office. Shame.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  I could go out and buy Windows or download Linux, and run them on this and even older computers, which is unfortunately probably what I’ll end up doing at some point. I like Apple, and am pretty bought in to their ecosystem. Their blacklisting of older hardware is one of my few complaints with them, really.
- cwyers 8y ago
  Most 8 year old PCs can run Windows 10.

cik 8y ago

I still have the 2011 Mac Mini powering my house... and services. We were seriously hoping this might be useful - but it fails to meet our needs. My company buys Kingdels on Amazon, and adds HD and RAM. Same box literally ends up costing 50% of the price (CAD) compared to the equivalent Mac Mini I just tricked out on the Apple site. Given that we have no Mac specific needs (but need a Unix), I'm just sad.

berbec 8y ago

This is using a 8th generation chip. Since the 9th gen chips are drop-in compatible, does this mean you can hack your way to a Mac Mini with an i9-9900k 8-core/12-thread monster?

joecool1029 8y ago
Probably not. This is 2018 and everything gets soldered down now.
TwoNineA 8y ago
They are probably laptop CPUs, 45 watt version, different socket.
- stephenr 8y ago
  I believe he said expressly that they're higher-power desktop CPUS (reference that the older model used mobile ones).
douglasfshearer 8y ago
CPUs available are: * Core i3-8100 [0] * Core i5-8500 [1] * Core i7-8700 [2] All of these are listed as having embedded version available, which I would expect Apple to be using, since embedded versions of desktop SKUs in the iMac. [0] http://ark.intel.com/products/126688 http://ark.intel.com/products/126688 [1] http://ark.intel.com/products/129939 http://ark.intel.com/products/129939 [2] http://ark.intel.com/products/126686 http://ark.intel.com/products/126686
belltaco 8y ago
i9-9900k has 16 threads, not 12.

orbitingpluto 8y ago

That is some serious price gouging on SSD upgrades, +$720 for 1 TB. Best Buy price matched several 1 TB SSDs (WD Blue, SATA, 2.5") for $150 (Canadian) apiece recently. And the price difference between different consumer SSD types is minimal.

TwoNineA 8y ago
I think you are comparing SATA to NVME SSDs, which is unfair. Not saying Apple isn't pricing them way too high.
- orbitingpluto 8y ago
  Yes, I am comparing different types of SSDs. Did the fact that I explicitly stated that I was doing so confuse you somehow? Paying an additional $720 to upgrade to 1 TB when a 1TB NVMe SSD goes for $400 seems ridiculous. But I really have no problem with that price gouging, as long as one can rip the thing apart and upgrade it on one's own.
  - Shish2k 8y ago
    >> You're comparing different types of SSDs > I explicitly stated that I was doing so Where? I've re-read your post several times thinking that there must be some mention of NVME vs SATA somewhere in it that my eyes are just skipping over, but I can't see it :S
    - orbitingpluto 8y ago
      "And the price difference between different consumer SSD types is minimal." Samsung 860 EVO 2.5" SATA III 2.5in SSD, 250GB $109.99 Samsung 860 EVO M.2 SATA III SSD, 250GB $109.99 Samsung 860 EVO Series mSATA SSD Solid State Drive, 250GB $109.99 Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 PCI-E x4 SSD, 250GB $129.99 With greater capacities, the price difference gets larger. But at 1 TB it is still less than a factor of 2.
      - 8y ago

m_mueller 8y ago

Looking at these config prices... wow: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/3.6ghz-quad-core-processor-128gb# https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/3.6ghz-quad-core... 128GB SSD base, +800 USD to go to 1TB? +600 USD to go from 8GB to 32GB? +300USD to go to the six core CPU? brutal. I was considering this for a moment instead of building a PC rig at home because I really like macOS, but that's just too much.

collias 8y ago
Same. I primarily use a desktop for gaming these days, but also do iOS development. My dream machine would be a Mac Mini with an eGPU. I'm looking to do a gaming rig rebuild soon, and was excited to see a new Mac Mini before I made my decision. These prices though....I'll just build a mini-ATX myself.
- mseidl 8y ago
  I have a mini atx build for Linux(I'm just a 100% linux guy), but I was considering a used mac mini or something for music stuff. I currently have to use a windows vm for a couple of instruments. But the state of music software on Linux isn't the best.
- singularity2001 8y ago
  don't they even show a eGpu in the demo?
cwyers 8y ago
I mean, Apple always charges Apple prices. I'm more surprised that the base price is so high. They couldn't do a 4gb/64gb version with a lower-end CPU?
- xvector 8y ago
  > They couldn't do a 4gb/64gb version with a lower-end CPU? The PR would be far, far worse.
mamcx 8y ago

prolepunk 8y ago

I started reading article hoping for something interesting from Apple, but then I compare Mac Mini specs to the mini-itx system I've built back in February. - AMD Ryzen 2400g (4cores 8 threads) - 16 GB DDR4 Ram - 256GB M.2 Nvme - 1TB 2.5" HDD - I can add more memory, internal storage, and still have a spare 16xPCI slot. This runs linux and cost less than $800 Canadian dollars all in. Not impressed. Everything is upgradable and in a case that 3 times as big as mac one.

yborg 8y ago
>case 3x as big I don't think you are getting the whole "Mini' concept here.
- prolepunk 8y ago
  I do, this computer is still a lot smaller than the usual ATX tower. I've spend the whole post describing what you get in terms of price/performance when you make that trade-off.
- rrmm 8y ago
  3 times as big is still a comfortable size for a small pc and a small price to pay for using commodity/replaceable parts. Most of the people who might buy a mini would probably buy a mini that was 3x as big. At least for me, what I really don't want to pay for is a screen and keyboard (as I would have to pay for with an imac/macbook/etc).

stephenr 8y ago

I've been waiting for a 2018 Mac desktop of some kind. I have a stock (as in, bought off the shelf, no cpu/memory upgrades) 2018 MBP15 that works for now (as my 2011 had another fan failure, its repaired but not reliable enough for work) but I'm getting tired of small screens/fewer cores etc. I thought it was going to be an iMac, but maybe this is the ticket. If I can just find a decent monitor to pair with it here (Thailand) it might be a good option.

kkylin 8y ago

Did anyone see if they said whether these machines are user-upgradable? I have two late-2012 models that I've been very happpy with (one at home, one at work). Compared to the 2014 "update" the best part is being able to put in memory & drives yourself. (Couldn't watch the keynote and haven't seen this said explicitly anywhere...)

_ph_ 8y ago
It seem that the RAM is user-upgradeable, the SSD not. But as it has 4 thunderbolt ports, EGPU and external storage are possible.

brian-armstrong 8y ago

Too little, too late. The Intel NUC is far and away the better computer in this form factor - it's smaller, faster and cheaper. Also there's a better chance that it will receive an upgrade sooner than 6 years from now.

millstone 8y ago
The Mac Mini is using full desktop components, not NUC laptop components. That's why it supports 4 times as much RAM, Thunderbolt 3, and a 65 watt CPU compared to the 25 watt NUCs.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > That's why it supports 4 times as much RAM 2× (64GB v. 32GB) > Thunderbolt 3, NUC also supports Thunderbolt 3 > and a 65 watt CPU Well, okay, that one is right.
- brian-armstrong 8y ago
  The NUC CPU is 45 watt, IIRC
  - graedus 8y ago
    Depends on which model. I got one earlier this year with a 7th gen core i5 processor: NUC7i5BNH with a i5-7260U, 2 cores, 4 threads, 15W TDP. Now you can get them with 8th gen core processors like these (among others): i5-8259U, 4 cores, 8 threads, 28W TDP i7-8559U, 4 cores, 8 threads, 28W TDP i7-8705G, 4 cores, 8 threads, 65W package TDP i7-8809G, 4 cores, 8 threads, 100W package TDP The last two have fancy integrated graphics and only come in a larger form factor with a skull on the side. edit: conciseness, formatting
- Const-me 8y ago
  > compared to the 25 watt NUCs Modern high-end NUCs use 100W CPU, this one: https://ark.intel.com/products/130409/Intel-Core-i7-8809G-Processor-with-Radeon-RX-Vega-M-GH-graphics-8M-Cache-up-to-4-20-GHz- https://ark.intel.com/products/130409/Intel-Core-i7-8809G-Pr...

aczerepinski 8y ago

Matching the specs of my 5 year old iMac puts this at $1,900, and I'm not even sure if the new graphics card is comparable to the GTX 775M that Apple included 5 years ago.

Const-me 8y ago
> I'm not even sure if the new graphics card is comparable to the GTX 775M I think you’re right about that. Apparently, GeForce GTX 775M delivers up to 2142 GFlops, UHD Graphics 630 only up to 423 GFlops. That’s 5 times difference in raw GPU performance.
- aczerepinski 8y ago
  What a bummer. My iMac cost $2k 5 years ago and included a nice 27 inch monitor. It's astonishing to me that $2k spent on the brand new Mac today would have severe downgrades like this.
ummonk 8y ago
Wouldn't the new iMac be a better comparison? The Mac mini has always been hamstrung by its small form factor.
- aczerepinski 8y ago
  I don’t want a better comparison, I want to replace my iMac with a headless desktop for under $3,000. I have a second big monitor at my desk for my work laptop and I’d love to reclaim the real estate that the iMac is taking up. It was Apple’s choice to hamstring themselves with that form factor, not mine. Do I need to wait for Jonny Ive to retire to buy a normal $1500-$2000 Mac that I can use for programming, photo editing, casual gaming, etc?

teilo 8y ago

It looks like the RAM is user-upgradable.

ryankrage77 8y ago

I still use a 2006 mac mini for headless server stuff, and a 2011 model to make use of macOS. I would love to buy this for its form factor, but at those prices I'd be better off buying myself a tricked-out desktop. I could probably go threadripper + DDR4 and a 2080 Ti for those prices.

chvid 8y ago

I know it has been too long and the price is upped. But I am going to buy this. For an always on server at home nothing beats the Mac mini. Excellent os, excellent build quality, modest power usage, silent.

sgt 8y ago
Have a Mac Mini at home that's been running 24/7 since 2009. Truly worth every cent.
- chvid 8y ago
  Me too - I have one of the first intel models - it is still running - the only thing that kills them is that they eventually become obsolete.
  - Joeri 8y ago
    That’s my experience as well. My g4 mini still boots up fine, it’s just that a 1 ghz ppc and 1 gb ram is basically a raspberry pi so even as a linux machine it isn’t particularly useful.
  - russh 8y ago
    Same here - The only thing that kills them is Apple.
phlowbieuq 8y ago
I'm interested to know what you run on this server...plex? torrent client? file server? on-prem file backups (if so, which software you use)? I have a small Intel NUC running windows that runs always-on and does some of these things just fine, but I'm always looking for some excuses to upgrade a gadget.
- AnonC 8y ago
  I would like to use this as a file server and a torrent client. Does anyone here have some idea about the SSD endurance or can explain with some numbers, how long it'd last for the specific SSDs Apple is using (or even generic SSDs as a comparison)? Let's assume I write 2TB of data every month on to a 512GB SSD or 256GB SSD. I tend to use such machines for a decade or longer (for as long as it doesn't break down completely), and considering that right now using Linux on these (with access to these SSDs) is difficult, I fear I might be out of up-to-date options in the future.

wildpeaks 8y ago

If not for the fact you need Apple hardware to develop iOS apps and that my older mac mini is excruciatingly slow with the newer macOS, I wouldn't even consider this.

wufufufu 8y ago

My guess is that it's going to overheat before you can effectively use the six core i7 option. Also, I'm assuming their pricing is based on market research. So by pricing the 2TB version at +$1400 (which you could put into a non-macOS desktop build for like $300), they're implying you're either quite rich, ignorant, or you're spending corporate or academic money. As a desktop option, why does this seem more expensive than the Macbook Pro?

timcederman 8y ago
The SSDs they use are almost an order of magnitude faster than regular consumer grade ones you can get for just over $300, and I was surprised last time I priced up something with decent performance that it cost about the same whether buying from Apple or not.
- wufufufu 8y ago
  They have almost 6GB/s write speeds? Also, you can get a 2TB PCIE SSD that writes at 2000MB/s for $600. https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/501128/Samsung-SSD-970-EVO-2TB https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/501128/Samsung-SSD-9...
  - timcederman 8y ago
    Most drives I've looked at get around 400mb a second (I also use https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/ https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/), and the SSDs Apple use are 2500mb/s, so 6.25x faster. I priced up the high performance 2TB SSD setup about a year ago, so I'll concede that data point is out of date.
    - wufufufu 8y ago
      I agree $1400 seems more reasonable when compared to PCIE SSD prices.

wildchild 8y ago

I am really surprised they offer it with SSD by default /s.

thevagrant 8y ago

I used to be a big Apple fan but with the prices the way they are, I can't do it anymore.

AnonC 8y ago

I'm kinda disappointed that there's only a single SSD option and no way to add another cheaper drive in it. That could've allowed someone to go with the lowest internal SSD drive. I understand Apple wanted to make and keep this one small, but the ability to an internal hard drive could've helped a lot on the cost front and also helped on the speed front (compared to an external drive). In the past, I've replaced the DVD drive with another internal hard drive (though that was at a slightly lower speed).

voltagex_ 8y ago

Can anyone make a guess at whether you lose one of the Thunderbolt ports to have the 10gbE port? Alternatively, would you hit a bottleneck if you somehow managed to max out all three Thunderbolt ports?

nikolay 8y ago

What a wasted potential! The pricing is a huge show stopper!