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In the mean time electric scooters are illegal in UK because of some 200 year old law that talks about pigs and donkeys (http://uk.businessinsider.com/electric-

In the mean time electric scooters are illegal in UK because of some 200 year old law that talks about pigs and donkeys (http://uk.businessinsider.com/electric-scooters-illegal-1835-highways-act-2018-8 http://uk.businessinsider.com/electric-scooters-illegal-1835...). Even so I see an increasing number of people using them, because apparently cops just turn a blind eye, which does make sense, unlike this law.

buckhx 8y ago
They're technically illegal in NYC as well, but I bought one and it's been pretty great.
Symbiote 8y ago
This is strange behavior from a disruptive Silicon Valley startup. Why have they suicide to comply with the law this time? :) I support the law, most British towns don't have enough space for electric scooters and pedestrians to mix — recover some space, for example by changing a car lane into two cycle lanes, and then we can discuss where scooters belong. They're very rare in Copenhagen, but like longboards, rollerskates, and fast children on kick scooters, people use them in the cycle lane.
- jstanley 8y ago
  I think cycle lanes are more likely to be created after scooters take up too much space, not before.
- andygcook 8y ago
  The scooter companies have to comply because scooters are easy for city officials to ban. They just have Public Works confiscate them off the streets by looking at the app. That’s exactly what happened where I live in Cambridge, MA. Bird/Lime showed up and the city took all their scooters.
arthurfm 8y ago
The law regarding > 250w e-bikes is ridiculous too and badly needs updating. https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637 https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-r...
- clarry 8y ago
  What bothers me even more is the 25 kph speed limit, after which all the electronics are legally required to be dead weight. Come on, I can cycle faster than that on muscle power (and I normally do). I've averaged 27 kph doing 90 kilometers on a friggin touring bike, carrying a sleeping bag, change of clothes, shoes. I take a bike to get from place A to B faster. I'd take an electric bike to get even faster while spending less of my own energy. Actually, I'd be quite happy even with just 250W as long as I can use all of it on top of my muscle power, no matter how fast or slow I'm going. Speed is ultimately what makes me pick the car over bike for longer rides.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    Yeah but if they'd allow you to ride 35km/h you could use residential roads without impeding traffic. That's dangerous because such bikes might actually eat into car industry profits; think of the jobs! For similar reasons it's a lot easier and cheaper to get a moped that does 45km/h instead of one that does 55km/h.
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      This was in the USA, in a smaller town without much biking. But I had a friend that built a couple ebikes. We were at a stop light and the people in the car behind us were visibly annoyed by the two bikers I'm front of them. We cleared the intersection before the even entered it. His was capable of going 88 km/h. The one I was using went to the range of 60. Eventually the torque bent the frame of the bike.
  - enoch_r 8y ago
    Riding consistently enough to gain speed is strongly correlated with being a better rider. I don't want to share the bike path with a bunch of 14-year-old kids traveling 40kph on electric bikes that they got for Christmas.
quietbritishjim 8y ago
I find that article odd: it implicitly assumes that it's ridiculous to ban electric scooters on pavements that are intended for pedestrians, but the ban seems like a pretty good idea to me. Why does it matter how old the law is? Or how funny-sounding it is? It then only briefly touches on why they're not allowed on the roads, saying that lights and breaks are required as if that's also ridiculous. Actually that also sounds very reasonable to me! Is that really such an arduous requirement? I could understand if someone disagreed with my opinion. But the article's tone is that my opinion isn't even valid. Now that is ridiculous.
- Jommi 8y ago
  Because it's still legal to use a kick scooter on the same pavements. Most countries have the law that e-scoots can be used on the pavements as long as you're going walking speed.
  - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
    I'm not sure that really is the case, in fact I seem to remember there was some debate about whether wheelie bins are legal on the pavement.
- clairity 8y ago
  it would be helpful if you stated why you hold your opinion, as an opinion by itself doesn't actually contribute to the conversation. with that said, most objections are a variation on (1) safety or (2) nuisance. on the safety issue, we should look at the differential effects of scooters on overall safety and hold a greater good standard. so let's say the baseline safety record of a city is 1 death and 10 injuries per thousand people on the streets. if scooters on sidewalks (vs on roads) changes that to 0.5 deaths and 12 injuries per thousand, that's a net gain in overall safety and scooters should be allowed, regardless of your opinion of them. on the nuisance issue, i'd suggest a majority standard. if 10% of people think scooters are a nuisance, while 90% think they're great, then we should allow scooters. that would be the (or a) democratic way to resolve the issue, rather than spouting opinions at each other.
woolvalley 8y ago
Any arguments against e-scooters is an argument against general bicycles, because they generally go about as fast and are about the same weight. If a person is against scooters but not against bicycles, then they are being hypocritical and probably don't like them because they are new and different. The e-scooter rental business model is a different thing, because you can do the exact same business model with plain bicycles as china has shown. So if I was a cop, would I really give a shit about things that were equivalent to bicycles? No, unless I was on a ticket revenue generation kick.
- seabee 8y ago
  Bicycles aren't legal on UK pavements either. If you're forced onto the road there isn't any benefit to an e-scooter vs an e-bike.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
  That simply isn’t true. A lot of states or cities have laws saying bicycles must operate like a vehicle, because it moves closer to vehicle speeds instead of pedestrians. Which isn’t why bicycles aren’t often illegal on sidewalks. Scooters, electric ones, moved closer to bicycle speed and yet many cities treat scooters closer to pedestrians.
eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
I live in Denver where we have a more recent law that says scooters are toys, which means they are only legally permitted on the sidewalk. This means you have scooters, which are silent like a Prius, speeding along at 20mph next to pedestrians. I support these scooters because they can reduce car usage, but they could have worked with the cities to make sure they were rolled out in a responsible way. But these companies must “disrupt,” right? Also, we have four or so scooter different companies operating here. Which means we now have scooters everywhere. Some in the walkway, some toppled over, etc.
- warent 8y ago
  > I support these scooters because they can reduce car usage, but they could have worked with the cities to make sure they were rolled out in a responsible way. But these companies must “disrupt,” right? I understand what you're saying and agree that it should work that way in an ideal world. But government bureaucracy moves incredibly slowly, especially for things they don't have very much incentive to do anything about. Imagine a business approaching a governing body and saying "I want to roll out electric scooters to the city!" They would probably get little more than a raised eyebrow and minimal progress over the course of years, not to mention they may simply choose to be lazy and reject it entirely. When a business "disrupts", it might be inconvenient, but it actually provides incentive for the government to move.
- adrianmonk 8y ago
  > speeding along at 20mph next to pedestrians Hmm, I wonder how feasible it would be for the next generation of scooters to have pedestrian-collision avoidance tech built into them. Put in a camera or two, some neural nets or whatever other tech is needed, and the scooter would limit its speed to something near (1.5X or 2X) walking speed when you get close to a pedestrian. Even if you ban scooters from sidewalks, it's still going to happen, so this could perhaps increase safety. And maybe even allow the two to peacefully co-exist.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    That would drastically increase the price while offering no obvious benefits to the user, so I doubt that it would sell very well.

buckhx 8y ago

They're technically illegal in NYC as well, but I bought one and it's been pretty great.

Symbiote 8y ago

This is strange behavior from a disruptive Silicon Valley startup. Why have they suicide to comply with the law this time? :) I support the law, most British towns don't have enough space for electric scooters and pedestrians to mix — recover some space, for example by changing a car lane into two cycle lanes, and then we can discuss where scooters belong. They're very rare in Copenhagen, but like longboards, rollerskates, and fast children on kick scooters, people use them in the cycle lane.

jstanley 8y ago
I think cycle lanes are more likely to be created after scooters take up too much space, not before.
andygcook 8y ago
The scooter companies have to comply because scooters are easy for city officials to ban. They just have Public Works confiscate them off the streets by looking at the app. That’s exactly what happened where I live in Cambridge, MA. Bird/Lime showed up and the city took all their scooters.

arthurfm 8y ago

The law regarding > 250w e-bikes is ridiculous too and badly needs updating. https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-1637 https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-r...

clarry 8y ago
What bothers me even more is the 25 kph speed limit, after which all the electronics are legally required to be dead weight. Come on, I can cycle faster than that on muscle power (and I normally do). I've averaged 27 kph doing 90 kilometers on a friggin touring bike, carrying a sleeping bag, change of clothes, shoes. I take a bike to get from place A to B faster. I'd take an electric bike to get even faster while spending less of my own energy. Actually, I'd be quite happy even with just 250W as long as I can use all of it on top of my muscle power, no matter how fast or slow I'm going. Speed is ultimately what makes me pick the car over bike for longer rides.
- adrianN 8y ago
  Yeah but if they'd allow you to ride 35km/h you could use residential roads without impeding traffic. That's dangerous because such bikes might actually eat into car industry profits; think of the jobs! For similar reasons it's a lot easier and cheaper to get a moped that does 45km/h instead of one that does 55km/h.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    This was in the USA, in a smaller town without much biking. But I had a friend that built a couple ebikes. We were at a stop light and the people in the car behind us were visibly annoyed by the two bikers I'm front of them. We cleared the intersection before the even entered it. His was capable of going 88 km/h. The one I was using went to the range of 60. Eventually the torque bent the frame of the bike.
- enoch_r 8y ago
  Riding consistently enough to gain speed is strongly correlated with being a better rider. I don't want to share the bike path with a bunch of 14-year-old kids traveling 40kph on electric bikes that they got for Christmas.

quietbritishjim 8y ago

I find that article odd: it implicitly assumes that it's ridiculous to ban electric scooters on pavements that are intended for pedestrians, but the ban seems like a pretty good idea to me. Why does it matter how old the law is? Or how funny-sounding it is? It then only briefly touches on why they're not allowed on the roads, saying that lights and breaks are required as if that's also ridiculous. Actually that also sounds very reasonable to me! Is that really such an arduous requirement? I could understand if someone disagreed with my opinion. But the article's tone is that my opinion isn't even valid. Now that is ridiculous.

Jommi 8y ago
Because it's still legal to use a kick scooter on the same pavements. Most countries have the law that e-scoots can be used on the pavements as long as you're going walking speed.
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  I'm not sure that really is the case, in fact I seem to remember there was some debate about whether wheelie bins are legal on the pavement.
clairity 8y ago
it would be helpful if you stated why you hold your opinion, as an opinion by itself doesn't actually contribute to the conversation. with that said, most objections are a variation on (1) safety or (2) nuisance. on the safety issue, we should look at the differential effects of scooters on overall safety and hold a greater good standard. so let's say the baseline safety record of a city is 1 death and 10 injuries per thousand people on the streets. if scooters on sidewalks (vs on roads) changes that to 0.5 deaths and 12 injuries per thousand, that's a net gain in overall safety and scooters should be allowed, regardless of your opinion of them. on the nuisance issue, i'd suggest a majority standard. if 10% of people think scooters are a nuisance, while 90% think they're great, then we should allow scooters. that would be the (or a) democratic way to resolve the issue, rather than spouting opinions at each other.

woolvalley 8y ago

Any arguments against e-scooters is an argument against general bicycles, because they generally go about as fast and are about the same weight. If a person is against scooters but not against bicycles, then they are being hypocritical and probably don't like them because they are new and different. The e-scooter rental business model is a different thing, because you can do the exact same business model with plain bicycles as china has shown. So if I was a cop, would I really give a shit about things that were equivalent to bicycles? No, unless I was on a ticket revenue generation kick.

seabee 8y ago
Bicycles aren't legal on UK pavements either. If you're forced onto the road there isn't any benefit to an e-scooter vs an e-bike.
eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
That simply isn’t true. A lot of states or cities have laws saying bicycles must operate like a vehicle, because it moves closer to vehicle speeds instead of pedestrians. Which isn’t why bicycles aren’t often illegal on sidewalks. Scooters, electric ones, moved closer to bicycle speed and yet many cities treat scooters closer to pedestrians.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago

I live in Denver where we have a more recent law that says scooters are toys, which means they are only legally permitted on the sidewalk. This means you have scooters, which are silent like a Prius, speeding along at 20mph next to pedestrians. I support these scooters because they can reduce car usage, but they could have worked with the cities to make sure they were rolled out in a responsible way. But these companies must “disrupt,” right? Also, we have four or so scooter different companies operating here. Which means we now have scooters everywhere. Some in the walkway, some toppled over, etc.

warent 8y ago
> I support these scooters because they can reduce car usage, but they could have worked with the cities to make sure they were rolled out in a responsible way. But these companies must “disrupt,” right? I understand what you're saying and agree that it should work that way in an ideal world. But government bureaucracy moves incredibly slowly, especially for things they don't have very much incentive to do anything about. Imagine a business approaching a governing body and saying "I want to roll out electric scooters to the city!" They would probably get little more than a raised eyebrow and minimal progress over the course of years, not to mention they may simply choose to be lazy and reject it entirely. When a business "disrupts", it might be inconvenient, but it actually provides incentive for the government to move.
adrianmonk 8y ago
> speeding along at 20mph next to pedestrians Hmm, I wonder how feasible it would be for the next generation of scooters to have pedestrian-collision avoidance tech built into them. Put in a camera or two, some neural nets or whatever other tech is needed, and the scooter would limit its speed to something near (1.5X or 2X) walking speed when you get close to a pedestrian. Even if you ban scooters from sidewalks, it's still going to happen, so this could perhaps increase safety. And maybe even allow the two to peacefully co-exist.
- adrianN 8y ago
  That would drastically increase the price while offering no obvious benefits to the user, so I doubt that it would sell very well.