11 ms·
In Amazon Go, no one thinks I'm stealing
- pcurve 8y agoI feel horrible for what she went through as a child, and still goes through. But. For this article, if felt she was over-analyzing and extrapolating a bit much. This one felt borderline unnecessary and hyperbolic: "No one cared what I was doing. Is this what it feels like to shop when you're not black? "
- jtbayly 8y agoThat's where I stopped reading. The answer is "no."
- stanleydrew 8y agoI would say the answer is "yes." Or at least that's how I feel when I shop, and I'm not black.
- andrewchambers 8y agoPeople should stop talking for others when they are unelected or not nominated. Just because she feels that way, doesn't mean every black person does. Maybe many do, but I don't think it is productive to speak for other people's experience. Of course when speaking for oneself, then it is fine to say anything.
- TazeTSchnitzel 8y agoI'm a white person and I'm pretty sure people don't treat me worse for my skin colour when shopping. Is that a controversial statement?
- andrewchambers 8y agoNo - I didn't say it was.
- PhasmaFelis 8y agoThat seems like a great way to ignore basically any complaint, by dismissing it as a lone outlier. All other things being equal, it should be pretty clear that a given black person is more qualified to speak about the black experience than a given white person is to refute them. If you have reason to believe that this particular writer is unreliable or not representative, then by all means share them.
- miemo 8y agoall black people have the same experiences? heyooo
- andrewchambers 8y agoI didn't say the writer is unreliable or wrong, and didn't meant to seem dismissive. > it should be pretty clear that a given black person is more qualified to speak about the black experience than a given white person is to refute them I think people are only qualified to speak about their own feelings and experience, just not for other people unless those people requested that.
- fjsolwmv 8y agoYour opinion on what people are qualified to speak about is irrelevant, according to your own logic.
- andrewchambers 8y agoNo, its not irrelevant, but it is just my opinion. I'm not saying it is more than my opinion.
- salvar 8y ago> People should stop talking for others Other people should do that you say?
- Dylan16807 8y agoYep, that's what they said. You can read it right there in the comment. Are you trying to imply something? I hope you're not trying to imply hypocrisy, because saying what someone should do is not speaking for them.
- salvar 8y agoYeah that's fair. It was a weak argument.
- andrewchambers 8y agoI didn't mean to say the argument is wrong or anything. I just think its dangerous to get into things like: "As a hacker news poster, we all feel that ..." Not even targeting this article in particular, it isn't bad at all from that perspective, just a trend I have been seeing and thinking about.
- salvar 8y agoYeah I get what you mean. I was just making a bad argument delivered in an unnecessarily snarky way. All good.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jtbayly 8y agoI’m white and I don’t feel that way. So obviously it isn’t being “white” or not that determines whether you feel that way while shopping. And I feel incredibly similarly to her when I walk into Starbucks and pickup my prepaid drink. I imagine I would feel just like her shopping at Amazon Go as well. I’m not denying there are differences in how you are treated depending on your race. In fact, as a father of black children it is my responsibility to make them aware of the extra level of care they need to engage, during shopping for example. But the feelings she shares are not unique to being black.
- stanleydrew 8y agoI don't dispute any of this. I think people may have lost the thread a little bit. The author's statement was > No one cared what I was doing. Is this what it feels like to shop when you're not black? The author does imply that all black people are eyed with suspicion when shopping, which is impossible to say but almost surely not true. However the answer to the question can still be "yes" without giving in to the implication.
- domador 8y agoAre you black, jtbayly? If not, are there other reasons why the people in the (presumably white) majority (unjustly) profile you and pay wary attention to you? (If I may ask, of course.)
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- SeanBoocock 8y agoI don't understand this sentiment. The author describes her lived experience shopping as a black woman throughout her life. She also points to recent publicized examples of black people being subject to poor treatment while engaging in normal activities. If you had lived your entire life being weary of store clerks, having inculcated that lesson in childhood, why wouldn't her observation be both genuine and important?
- pcurve 8y agoI empathized with her experience described in the first half of the article fully. But then she started making connection to Amazon Go by saying: "The idea of walking into a store, taking an item or several off the shelves and strolling right back out again boggled my mind. It ran counter to everything I had learned about being black and shopping." I think the idea would run counter to everybody regardless of race. "I was afraid someone would pop out from behind a display of Amazon-branded merch and scream, "Get your hands off that!" I also didn't find above statement particularly credible or representative of average person. The article just felt a tad forced, and I stand by this observation despite all the down votes.
- ncallaway 8y ago> I also didn't find above statement particularly credible or representative of average person What data do you have to back up your determination of credibility here? Is it based on surveys and discussions with minority populations who have similar shared experiences to the author or is it based largely on a comparison to your own personal lived experience?
- Udik 8y ago> She also points to recent publicized examples of black people being subject to poor treatment while engaging in normal activities. The one about Oprah in Zurich is absolute bullshit. When you take in account that the boutique in question is one of Zurich's most luxurious (not for nothing they have $38k purses on sale) you can imagine the type of treatment any customer gets from the salespeople, who are used to see incredibly rich customers from any part of the world pop in for their shopping. If anything, the episode highlights exactly the hyper-sensitivity of some people (given that Oprah didn't just lie to publicise her then upcoming movie on the theme of racism, "The Butler").
- eagsalazar2 8y agoWow, just wow. You have no idea what it is like, if she says it feels like she is always been watched and suspected of stealing then finds shopping at Go to be a refreshing break from that, what exactly is "hyperbolic" about that and how would you know if it is hyperbolic or not anyway??
- Greed 8y agoIf it sounds ridiculous to you, it's because it is. The fact that you find it absurd only really underlines the point being made there, and that point is that "doing things while black" is a lifetime of uncomfortable, unnecessary, and subtly discriminatory experiences that you learn to expect and prepare for. I assume if you're on HN that you have at least one well-paid black coworker in tech. Ask them how often they get uncomfortable, questioning looks while walking around their own neighborhood and you'll see exactly how hyperbolic that statement is.
- carbocation 8y agoThis has echoes for me of the Twitter thread and subsequent NYT article from last week about how Sears' approach to home sales was a boon to black people in the Jim Crow-era US. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/20/us/sears-jim-crow-racism-catalog.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/20/us/sears-jim-crow-racism-...
- esotericn 8y agoProfiling sucks. In this case though, I'd say you're simply trading one injustice for another. You go from the ephemeral experience of having a few underpaid lackeys mistrust you, to having an eternal database of everything you buy owned by a third party. Then again, it's getting pretty ridiculous everywhere. The local supermarkets around me - they've gradually stripped real checkout operators away and replaced them with self service booths that each have LCD's beaming a picture of my own face at myself whilst I shop, with a scary "you're being watched!" banner across the bottom. It really bothers me that everyday 'essential' things seem to be full of pain points like this for no discernible reason. We have private companies launching rockets, supercomputers in our pockets, and so on and so forth, and yet the "human experience" seems to be constantly degrading. What can we do about this?
- InclinedPlane 8y agoNot only that but you also raise the requirements for grocery / department store shopping. In principle all you need to shop at most stores is cash and being able to get to the physical location of the store. With Amazon Go you need a smartphone with a data plan, an amazon account, and a bank account. Even in America not everyone has all of those, or even any one of those. I personally spent a few years as an adult without a bank account. These requirements amount to a "you must be this rich to use this store" sign, and there are easily tens of millions of Americans who are not rich enough to use these stores even if they do have the money to buy some of the goods inside.
- Nasrudith 8y agoWhile fiscal underserving remains a problem there are $20 burner phones which are smartphones. Gift cards and prepaids can be used as well by those without. An extra obstacle certainly but one that can be overcome surprisingly easily.
- jowsie 8y agoHow do you purchase the cheap smart phone and activate the gift card when you can't get in the shop in the first place?
- sures100 8y agoI love when huge corporations end racism for me.
- jkestner 8y agoCool thing is instead of getting profiled by humans, she can get profiled by Rekognition.
- bfung 8y agoThis is an interesting topic; The automation removed a lot of the human interaction, creating a better experience for the customer. In the short term. However, by removing a lot of humans from the shopping interactions, it allows the removed humans to never learn from their mistakes, to stay isolated in their own views. Will this actually make racism better or worse in the long run, as there isn't automation to "fix" these social problems of ours, at least in the US.
- moonka 8y ago>However, by removing a lot of humans from the shopping interactions, it allows the removed humans to never learn from their mistakes, to stay isolated in their own views. Relying on shopping interactions to teach these humans places a huge burden on the people they make these mistakes on. Sometimes I'm not looking to be a teachable moment, sometimes I just want to get my shopping done (or get a cab etc).
- bfung 8y agoSure, not every moment in life is a teachable or eureka moment. But the more chances people have to interact, the more chances to gain a better understanding of each other. Without even the opportunity to interact, that divide and chance to learn is zero. Maybe the 1 out of 100 times, you go to the supermarket, and are feeling good, and feel like just saying hi and do some small talk to the cashier... while it may not change the world instantly, incremental progress is better than lack of it.
- salvar 8y agoI agree with the benefits of what you describe in the last paragraph. But for these opportunities for people to learn by realizing that their unfair profiling of customers based on the color of their skin is wrong... at what point do you consider the cost of the profilee in enduring these teachable moments again and again and again through their life?
- chongli 8y agoI think we're a lot better off than we were in prior centuries, as far as racism goes. There's still a long way to go, though. Automation can make racism worse, I think. I look at the intense polarization that seems to be springing out of the Facebook and YouTube recommendation algorithms and I'm filled with dismay. Perhaps a lot of the fringe extremists have been around for a long time but these websites give them tools to connect with and win new recruits.
- andrew_ 8y agoTossing in my own anecdotal experience: I worked in Loss Prevention (plain clothes security) for a major midwest retail chain, within 10 miles of a major metropolitan city for several years. We absolutely profiled customers. The catch is that we profiled teenagers of the Caucasian persuasion. Why? Because they were the folks most likely to try and lift goods. Folks wearing unnecessarily baggy clothing (think more than three layers, wildly oversized), obviously tweaking individuals, and people constantly changing direction or looking behind them were obvious targets - but far in the minority of people that were followed or apprehended. For me personally, the people who could be considered a minority made up maybe 10% of my total apprehensions. It'll be different everywhere but not every retail store, and not every retail employee, fits the narrative of the article.
- pentae 8y agoOf course, if you'd swapped out the word "Caucasian" for "African American" your post would be downvoted and you'd be called a racist. But because we're DEFINITELY not racist mentioning you targeted white people is totally fine in 2018.
- mishurov 8y agoThe left nowadays have loads tools for witch hunt at their disposal: racism, metoo, homophobia, transphobia, etc. The Freedom of Speech 2018th Edition.
- cbg0 8y agoAs long as this is andrew_'s personal experience, I don't see why I'd call him a racist regardless of the race he profiled the most. He even goes on to explain that there's a good reason for targeting white teenagers: they were the most likely to steal something, so they weren't targeted because they're white, they were targeted because they proved to be the highest risk. Now if andrew_ had started generalizing, like you are doing, then I could see him getting called a racist and getting downvoted.
- nielsole 8y ago
- whorleater 8y agoI wonder if minorities shop online more often due to wanting to avoid racial profiling.
- Qworg 8y agoThey certainly used the Sears catalog more when it was the Amazon of its time.
- mishurov 8y agoIndeed. After a couple of years she will demand to tweak the racist prejudiced algorithm.
- barell 8y agoJust a bit off topic. Is it possible to steal in Amazon Go?
- tonyedgecombe 8y agoSomeone will figure out a way.
- erikb 8y agoYes. Of course it is. I think they are not stupid either and very well know that it will happen. The first on the market has to do the experiments to get it right.
- rolodato 8y agoWhen you get the receipt back, you can request an item be cancelled because you "didn't take it". They will pretty much accept it, no questions asked.
- lozenge 8y agoOne journalist tried and failed but I think two experts people working in concert might have a better chance. It would probably relate to tricking Amazon that you put an item back.
- erikb 8y agoI'm not sure if discriminating against super market employees is the right way to fight discrimination. The good things I can see with a machine super market: - It can be open 24/7 without exploiting its employees - It can be almost fully stocked all the time - They don't have an excuse to "coicidentally misplace" a $1.50 label at a product that in the end costs $2.99 (every shop does this in the area where I live)
- Nasrudith 8y agoThat isn't discrimination against supermarket employees. Discrimination against them would be housing that refuses to rent to them. There is no obligation to hire them except the consequences of not hiring them.
- ntlk 8y agoIf the shop is open 24/7 someone still needs to stock it, clean it and keep an eye on it. It doesn’t suddenly require no staff just because there are no tills.
- tyfon 8y agoI wonder how long it will take before they employ regression algorithms to screen those entering the shop and deny those deemed "not safe". They would probably be like the police crime prevention algorithms in that they would inherently be biased towards the same prejudices as the humans in such jobs. Profile a specific group of people and that group will be arrested more than those not in that group and the algorithms will pick that up.
- sudhirj 8y agoAmazon only lets you in if they have your credit card on file - so they know your purchase history and can guess at your credit limits. It really doesn’t matter who you are, where you’re from or what you look like.
- tyfon 8y agoYes, for now. I know I'm rather pessimistic, but I don't think it will stop there. The credit card part is probably a dream scenario for banks though, to only let people into shops that have an active credit line and not accept cash. And then you have the problem of bias towards groups of people in the credit scoring regressions.
- hkai 8y agoIt's already here. People in Xinjiang need to scan their ID to enter a supermarket.
- meowface 8y agoYeah, but we all expect that sort of thing of China. The concern is mostly over it coming to the US. (I was going to say "and the UK and other places", but honestly, I would kind of expect this of the UK, too.)
- ackidacki 8y agoWhy would it be needed? If someone enters with a credit card on file you can charge anything broken or taken out.
- eksemplar 8y agoI’m a white Scandinavian male, well dressed and always looking like I belong in any higher class setting, but I would love this concept as well. I have anxiety and even though it’s not really hindering me in any way, I still double check my damn bag before I enter a store and I always make sure to get a receipt to be able to prove I paid, even though I’ve never even been looked over by store security. Normal people wouldn’t notice, but grocery stores are designed to think some of their visitors are thieves, and if Amazon Go took that away from the experience I’d honestly never shop anywhere else.
- Markoff 8y agoi have exactly opposite way of thinking, they should prove i stole something, not me worrying about carrying receipts during multiple shops visits
- expathacker 8y agoThis reminds me somewhat of a non-profit retail store in San Francisco where I volunteered to pay off a pile of parking tickets. The store itself sold local artisanal housewares to help support a number of local AIDS/HIV-related charities. What really made a lasting impression on me was their loss-prevention training me was that not everybody is strong enough to carry an item, a bag, or push a cart while shopping. When seeing somebody place an item in their pocket/purse/bag we would offer to carry it for them or hold it at the front-desk. This enabled a compassionate the benefit of the doubt to a clientele base who were often too frail from HIV-related illnesses to hold the item in their hands and offered a gracious, de-escalated escape route for would-be thieves.
- jowsie 8y agoIs simply sticking something in your pocket enough reason for them to kick off? In the UK at least I've been shoving stuff in hoodie pockets if I can't carry it all in my hands. You might occasionally get funny looks but no one has said anything to me, or the other people I know that do it.
- DanBC 8y agoIn England and Wales you haven't completed the offence until you walk out the store. (And even then you need to have dishonestly appropriated the item, not just forgotten it's in a pocket). So you might have a guard following you around but they shouldn't be doing much more until you leave.
- LyndsySimon 8y agoAs far as I know, that’s the case in the US as well.
- Markoff 8y agoi would think this it's same in any country with laws, except it's walking past cashiers
- expathacker 8y ago
- wscott 8y agoInstead, Amazon will be profiling and denying access to highly technical engineers who are most likely to be able to subvert their system. ;-) Perhaps to just pull back the curtain to the magic.
- stephengillie 8y agoAmazon Go's model is "Extreme Loss Prevention" - have no checkers, monitor all customers, and just charge their account for what they "shoplifted". Amazon Go stores are classist and ageist in a different way than traditional retail, because they effectively ban customers who don't have an Amazon account, or don't have a bank account backing the Amazon account, or don't have a smartphone. My parents couldn't shop there because they don't want to use smartphones. Supposedly, the machine-vision and algorithms aren't quite there yet, and the stores depend on a very large human element behind the cameras.
- Markoff 8y agotwo cans of wine? can someone enlighten fellow European? is it really wine in metal can? sounds even worse than putting ketchup on pizza
- JeanMarcS 8y agoWhen I was a teenager, I dressed like a metal fan. Anytime I get in any shop, I had my own guard following me thinking I didn't noticed him or her. So I started playing "How many times can we make the whole shop again and again" with them. I hade spare times back then ! But seriously, it was not something likable, and I guess when it happens not because you choosed a look, but because you're born with one tone of skin, it might be a nightmare.