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Had a ~20 minute conversation about this yesterday. I find it fascinating to ask what makes food taste good. We agreed it was a combination of texture, flavor(

Had a ~20 minute conversation about this yesterday. I find it fascinating to ask what makes food taste good. We agreed it was a combination of texture, flavor(pairings, aromas, and basic taste like salt, sweet, acid, etc..), atmosphere/presentation. What the conversation boiled down-to- are foods that use 'all the cheat codes', ie, adding sugar, salts, fats, acid; going to taste better than foods that are traditional? I contest that American-Italian will taste better than Italian because it wins the Pepsi Taste Challenge. Where tradition doesnt allow you to use sugar in traditional Italian culture, American food has no rules. From a biological point of view, the food with a sugar in it will win a comparison. The goal I was looking to understand- If I can make American Thai Food that causes friends to eat until they have a stomach ache, does that beat traditional thai food that tastes good, but not addicting?

maxerickson 8y ago
Of course, "traditional" Italian cuisine gets much of its sweetness from tomatoes introduced from the Americas.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Right! I often marvel at what Old-world cuisine was like before American influences. No tomatoes. No potatoes. No chocolate OR vanilla. Heck, no tobacco or coffee! What did they do after dinner?
  - solatic 8y ago
    Drink tea (from the Orient, of course...) ;)
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    Latin American influences.
  - ginko 8y ago
    Coffee is from the old world. It's native to Ethiopia.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      Wow! That's news to me, thanks. I wonder if Ethiopia still has any old lineages of coffee growing...
      - _hardwaregeek 8y ago
        Ethiopian Yirgacheffe is a pretty famous coffee. http://www.blackpowderroasting.com/all-about-ethiopian-yirgacheffe/ http://www.blackpowderroasting.com/all-about-ethiopian-yirga...
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    If you're looking for a wormhole to fall into this afternoon, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange Don't forget to add corn, bell/chili peppers, pineapples and a bunch of nuts to your list of things that were introduced to the Old World. It works both ways too. Horses, chickens and pigs aren't native to the Americas... and a whole range of diseases...
- wenc 8y ago
  Traditional Italian also gets a lot of its umami from tomatoes and grated Parmesan or Grana Padano cheeses. I was surprised to learn chilli flakes are a popular spice in Italian cooking from Italy (even Italian grandmothers use them). They are almost never found in Italian-American cooking except in certain dishes like Arrabiata. Most of my Italian-American friends can't handle any amount of spice.
  - kasey_junk 8y ago
    Italian sausage, eggs in hell, meatballs, spicy pepperoni dishes & spicy vodka sauces are Italian American cooking. I’m not sure that I’ve been to an Italian American restaurant, including chains, in the last 30 years that didn’t have spicy food on the menu.
    - wenc 8y ago
      Good point. What about in pasta? If you're in Florence, most pastas are sprinkled with chilli flakes.
      - tomjakubowski 8y ago
        Not pasta, but red chili flakes are a ubiquitous condiment in US pizzerias.
empath75 8y ago
I dunno. I had Panang curry in Thailand and it tasted exactly the same. Thai food has all kinds of influences and changes as much as American food.
- wenc 8y ago
  I was in Bangkok last year and Thai food there was amazing. Unlike American Thai food, it was savory rather than sweet, and had a kind of oomph that I've not experienced anywhere in the U.S. outside of San Francisco (Thai food in SF is pretty good). American Thai food is trending sweeter by the year and getting less and less edible [1] for people without a sweet tooth like me. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/05/six-rules-for-dining-out/308929/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/05/six-rul...
Retric 8y ago
A huge factor is what your used to. If you regularly consume sweet things you get used to that flavor and stuff tastes bland without it. On the other hand, if you eat a rather bland diet you start noticing many starches taste sweet as your saliva breaks them down.
temp0876456 8y ago
No offense but if you can say that ‘American Italian vs Italian’ comment with a straight face you need to travel more. Food is a lot more complex than how you’re describing it. Yes, you can have good Italian food anywhere in the world (my favorite is Lenzi, which is in Bangkok) but there’s no comparison to eating good Italian food in, say, Florence. I’m typing this looking at the river Arno. Eating Italian food here is transcendent.
vonmoltke 8y ago
> What the conversation boiled down-to- are foods that use 'all the cheat codes', ie, adding sugar, salts, fats, acid; going to taste better than foods that are traditional? This is one of those unquantifiable sentiments that will just devolve into one person's personal biases against another's. What counts as a "cheat code"? What is the definition of "traditional"? In fact, the rest of your post belies a bias against American food and American interpretations of non-American food. In fact, three of your "cheat codes" (salt, fat, and acid) are fundamental elements of cooking world-wide. The differences are in how those elements are brought, figuratively and literally, to the table by various cultures.
- 13of40 8y ago
  You should try some traditional, West coast, native American food. I'm talking some salmon-with-nothing-on-it, maybe some of that black moss (edit: wila) soup, some bitterroot. Try and find the salt, fat, and acid.
  - heyoni 8y ago
    Salmon is quite fatty, no?
coldtea 8y ago
>I contest that American-Italian will taste better than Italian because it wins the Pepsi Taste Challenge. Where tradition doesnt allow you to use sugar in traditional Italian culture, American food has no rules. Yeah, thanks god the Michelin guide is European...
- wenc 8y ago
  I've learned that the Michelin Guide tends to be a bit Euro-centric and the top percentile of its ranked restaurants tends to incorporate elements of molecular gastronomy (the new hotness these days), which isn't everyone's cup of tea. I ate a Michelin restaurant in San Sebastian (Basque Country) a few weeks ago. New Basque Cuisine is heavily reliant on fresh ingredients, which is its hallmark, but this restaurant also tried to present its dishes using molecular gastronomy inspired techniques (i.e. foam of sea water, etc.). It was such a heavily cerebral experience (trying to figure out what I was supposed to be tasting etc.) that I had no more energy to simply enjoy the food on an emotional level. In that sense, I think Michelin restaurants miss the mark. I learned that I'm more interested in food that people miss when they move away. I'm thinking of Brazilian stews like moqueca de peixe (fish stew), bobo de camarao (shrimp stew) or even feijoada (pork and beans with rice). These are simple every day foods that are enjoyable on a visceral level, and that one thinks about wistfully when one is abroad. I don't think I could ever miss food from a Michelin restaurant.

maxerickson 8y ago

Of course, "traditional" Italian cuisine gets much of its sweetness from tomatoes introduced from the Americas.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
Right! I often marvel at what Old-world cuisine was like before American influences. No tomatoes. No potatoes. No chocolate OR vanilla. Heck, no tobacco or coffee! What did they do after dinner?
- solatic 8y ago
  Drink tea (from the Orient, of course...) ;)
- jacquesm 8y ago
  Latin American influences.
- ginko 8y ago
  Coffee is from the old world. It's native to Ethiopia.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Wow! That's news to me, thanks. I wonder if Ethiopia still has any old lineages of coffee growing...
    - _hardwaregeek 8y ago
      Ethiopian Yirgacheffe is a pretty famous coffee. http://www.blackpowderroasting.com/all-about-ethiopian-yirgacheffe/ http://www.blackpowderroasting.com/all-about-ethiopian-yirga...
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  If you're looking for a wormhole to fall into this afternoon, here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange Don't forget to add corn, bell/chili peppers, pineapples and a bunch of nuts to your list of things that were introduced to the Old World. It works both ways too. Horses, chickens and pigs aren't native to the Americas... and a whole range of diseases...
wenc 8y ago
Traditional Italian also gets a lot of its umami from tomatoes and grated Parmesan or Grana Padano cheeses. I was surprised to learn chilli flakes are a popular spice in Italian cooking from Italy (even Italian grandmothers use them). They are almost never found in Italian-American cooking except in certain dishes like Arrabiata. Most of my Italian-American friends can't handle any amount of spice.
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  Italian sausage, eggs in hell, meatballs, spicy pepperoni dishes & spicy vodka sauces are Italian American cooking. I’m not sure that I’ve been to an Italian American restaurant, including chains, in the last 30 years that didn’t have spicy food on the menu.
  - wenc 8y ago
    Good point. What about in pasta? If you're in Florence, most pastas are sprinkled with chilli flakes.
    - tomjakubowski 8y ago
      Not pasta, but red chili flakes are a ubiquitous condiment in US pizzerias.

empath75 8y ago

I dunno. I had Panang curry in Thailand and it tasted exactly the same. Thai food has all kinds of influences and changes as much as American food.

wenc 8y ago
I was in Bangkok last year and Thai food there was amazing. Unlike American Thai food, it was savory rather than sweet, and had a kind of oomph that I've not experienced anywhere in the U.S. outside of San Francisco (Thai food in SF is pretty good). American Thai food is trending sweeter by the year and getting less and less edible [1] for people without a sweet tooth like me. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/05/six-rules-for-dining-out/308929/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/05/six-rul...

Retric 8y ago

A huge factor is what your used to. If you regularly consume sweet things you get used to that flavor and stuff tastes bland without it. On the other hand, if you eat a rather bland diet you start noticing many starches taste sweet as your saliva breaks them down.

temp0876456 8y ago

No offense but if you can say that ‘American Italian vs Italian’ comment with a straight face you need to travel more. Food is a lot more complex than how you’re describing it. Yes, you can have good Italian food anywhere in the world (my favorite is Lenzi, which is in Bangkok) but there’s no comparison to eating good Italian food in, say, Florence. I’m typing this looking at the river Arno. Eating Italian food here is transcendent.

vonmoltke 8y ago

> What the conversation boiled down-to- are foods that use 'all the cheat codes', ie, adding sugar, salts, fats, acid; going to taste better than foods that are traditional? This is one of those unquantifiable sentiments that will just devolve into one person's personal biases against another's. What counts as a "cheat code"? What is the definition of "traditional"? In fact, the rest of your post belies a bias against American food and American interpretations of non-American food. In fact, three of your "cheat codes" (salt, fat, and acid) are fundamental elements of cooking world-wide. The differences are in how those elements are brought, figuratively and literally, to the table by various cultures.

13of40 8y ago
You should try some traditional, West coast, native American food. I'm talking some salmon-with-nothing-on-it, maybe some of that black moss (edit: wila) soup, some bitterroot. Try and find the salt, fat, and acid.
- heyoni 8y ago
  Salmon is quite fatty, no?

coldtea 8y ago

>I contest that American-Italian will taste better than Italian because it wins the Pepsi Taste Challenge. Where tradition doesnt allow you to use sugar in traditional Italian culture, American food has no rules. Yeah, thanks god the Michelin guide is European...

wenc 8y ago
I've learned that the Michelin Guide tends to be a bit Euro-centric and the top percentile of its ranked restaurants tends to incorporate elements of molecular gastronomy (the new hotness these days), which isn't everyone's cup of tea. I ate a Michelin restaurant in San Sebastian (Basque Country) a few weeks ago. New Basque Cuisine is heavily reliant on fresh ingredients, which is its hallmark, but this restaurant also tried to present its dishes using molecular gastronomy inspired techniques (i.e. foam of sea water, etc.). It was such a heavily cerebral experience (trying to figure out what I was supposed to be tasting etc.) that I had no more energy to simply enjoy the food on an emotional level. In that sense, I think Michelin restaurants miss the mark. I learned that I'm more interested in food that people miss when they move away. I'm thinking of Brazilian stews like moqueca de peixe (fish stew), bobo de camarao (shrimp stew) or even feijoada (pork and beans with rice). These are simple every day foods that are enjoyable on a visceral level, and that one thinks about wistfully when one is abroad. I don't think I could ever miss food from a Michelin restaurant.