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Green tea supplements ruined my liver
- sarabande 8y agoTo save everyone from the clickbait title: green tea capsules are the food supplement.
- fermigier 8y agoThis is more that a "clikbait" title. The big picture is that the food supplement is unregulated in the USA, due, in most part, to intense lobbying of the food supplement industry. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/06/supplements-make-tobacco-look-easy/488798/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/06/supplemen... In Europe, the situation seems a bit less bleak: https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/labelling_nutrition/supplements_en https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/labelling_nutrition/supplem...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- zone411 8y agoThey should be mainly regulated to ensure purity standards, prevent mislabeling, and to allow quick action when a health danger is discovered (and not a just a 1-in-1,000,000 case). The supplement industry should be forced to provide independent lab testing results for each batch they sell and to list all possible known interactions and dangers on the product pages and together with the physical products, and to provide the government with total sales numbers. I'm strongly against banning supplements by default. General problems are the lack of research, especially on humans, low-powered and short-term studies only, and not publishing null results. It would be nice if all supplements had safety studies on humans but with a median cost of a phase 3 trial at $19 million, it would be equivalent to a total ban, unless the government pays. Maybe some kind of an alternative system could be created where users report by themselves and all companies have to encourage users to use this system...
- dang 8y agoWe've supplemented the title above.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- djrogers 8y agoI see what you did there. Bravo
- fastball 8y agoDid anyone else see a dosage that he was actually taking for these green tea supplements? It seems to be missing from the article but is arguably the most important point. Anything is poisonous to the body in high enough doses. Does the producer of these capsules (apparently Vitacost) specify a maximum dosage? If so, was Jim exceeding this recommendation? Or well under it? Come on BBC.
- fredley 8y agoThere is no 'dosage', because—as mentioned in the article—these capsules are classified as food, not medicine: > What is it about green tea supplements that might cause harm at certain doses to some people? Scientists do not know for certain. Because green tea has been drunk for thousands of years, supplements consisting of its concentrated form are regulated in the US and Europe as foods, not medicines. That means that specific safety testing has not been required, so the scientific picture of how green tea supplements might affect our health is incomplete.
- ianai 8y agoThey might classify them as food but they’re not Whole Food. There’s a large difference between eating a whole food and taking out a single molecule from something and wrapping it in a bunch of filler material. The pills they showed looked like powdered tea, but I’d bet he was taking something much more concentrated.
- beagle3 8y agoSame with water, table salt (NaCl), coffee, pomegranate juice and many other things. Dose makes the poison, some people are capable of handling more, and some less. Tea, among other things, has caffeine in it, and enough caffeine will kill you, but other than in pill form, you’ll likely not manage to get to the threshold because you’ll start vomiting way earlier. It’s possible that there are other compounds harmful at high concentration. And of course, it’s not unthinkable that some of his pills were contaminated with something more dangerous. But the dosage alone in some cases may explain enough of the damage.
- vackosar 8y ago> Concern has focused on a potentially toxic ingredient called Epigallocatechin-3-gallate or EGCG, the most abundant of the naturally occurring compounds with antioxidant properties in green tea, called catechins. There are likely to be a number of factors that might make an individual susceptible to harm from EGCG including genetics, and the way supplements are used.
- Gibbon1 8y agoHere is another where about 5-10% of people have genetic susceptibility to aristolochic acid, causing kidney damage and cancer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristolochia#Herbalism,_toxicity_and_carcinogenicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristolochia#Herbalism,_toxici...
- raincom 8y agoI remember about Hydroxycut, another weight loss pill from old days. That was recalled due to liver damage. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3952288/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3952288/
- gadders 8y agoIf you want a weight loss tablet that can kill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dinitrophenol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dinitrophenol Seems to kill a couple of people a month in the UK.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y agoWhy can't people just eat a bit less and do some exercise? It's not rocket science.
- choko 8y agoBecause many people have poor impulse control and it's not nearly as easy as you present. If it were, many fewer people would have issues with obesity. It's not as if those people don't know why they are overweight.
- gaius 8y agomany people have poor impulse control Yes and no. I expect that most people’s impulse control is actually OK, in the absence of continuous advertising i.e. an obesogenic environment. Snack companies spend literally billions to psychologically profile and manipulate their customers...
- Broken_Hippo 8y agoSure it isn't rocket science, but it isn't nearly as simple as "just eat a bit less and do some exercise". I've lost a lot of weight and kept it off for years. Good advice is hard to come by, and half of the advice is complete crap or so restrictive that it is difficult to follow. Even "simply eating less" isn't that simple. 1. Few tell you ways to deal with actual hunger. Frank talks about this would help: I explain that it is, to a point, something you get used to and to a point, something you learn to control after a while. It isn't that hard to wait an hour for a snack, but it is hard to simply not have a snack. 2. Most folks still need to be satisfied with food. I personally opt for eating less during the day and eating more in the evening because that is when I am the most hungry. 3. Simply being sure to eat enough fruits and vegetables might cause you to lose weight without eating less bulk. You don't need to focus on eating less, just healthier. Same goes for whole grains. You wind up eating less calories. 4. A slew of people need to learn to cook differently and have options available at times when they cannot cook. 5. American society (at least) puts a lot of emphasis on food. 6. Exercise doesn't actually help you lose much weight. In fact, you might find yourself more hungry for doing it. It does, however, help with health - but it doesn't have to be tons of stuff. It would really help if more places had safe biking and walking paths along roads.
- CaptainZapp 8y agoGood grief! Why not drink green tea if you're interested in the positive effects of green tea? Apart from its positive effects it's a fantastic drink.
- ianai 8y agoI wish we knew the equivalent amount of green tea he was taking.
- tluyben2 8y agoMust be an awful lot... Why do people when they read ‘x is good for you’ or ‘x might cure y’ go completely overboard. We had these ‘fasting might help prevent Alzheimer’ and the articles contain something about 24 hours low calory etc; then I read HN and Reddit and see people, responding to the article, doing 2 weeks water fast saying it is da bomb. There was an article about coffee preventing (...) liver cancer; people responding eating packs of raw coffee beans, drinking liters of coffee etc. All vitamin news is the same; people taking handsful of then dangerous amounts of vitamins. Moderately seems key to all.
- CaptainZapp 8y agoThere's only one word that wants to make me yell at my flat screen more than super food And that would be influencer
- imtringued 8y agoProbably slightly more than 6 cups per pill if we assume that each pill contains 500mg catechins. The daily limit for someone who weighs 70kg is around 700mg which means one pill per day is the maximum.
- zone411 8y agoUmm because the studies that showed positive effects were not from drinking green tea but from concentrated supplements.
- arethuza 8y agoIn This is Going to Hurt: Secret Diaries of a Junior Doctor (strongly recommended) there is a part where a consultant has a rant about "natural not meaning safe" and mentions a plant in his garden that would kill you if you sat under it for ten minutes...
- tomhoward 8y agoI think everyone understands that plenty of things in nature are poisonous or dangerous in other ways. But it's also reasonable to trust our intuition that food is generally better - i.e., more easily digested and more nutritionally complete - the closer it is to its natural form. In the linked article, the supplement in question was was far from natural; it was highly refined and concentrated. So the cause of the damage in this case was not from consuming a natural product, but from taking a highly _unnatural_ product. If he'd just had ordinary green tea (i.e., dried tea leaves steeped in water) once or twice a day, as millions of people have done for many generations, this would not have happened.
- adminu 8y ago> I think everyone understands that plenty of things in nature are poisonous or dangerous in other ways I think, many do not, at all. > So the cause of the damage in this case was not from consuming a natural product, but from taking a highly _unnatural_ product. There is a big difference in your definition of natural and what is marketed as natural.
- arethuza 8y agoI would recommend reading the book to find out the plant in question and why you would be killed.... :-)
- tmoravec 8y agoCare to share a spoiler? :-)
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- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- IloveHN84 8y agoI'm in a holding pattern to since more than 6 weeks now because of increased values of the liver. No alcohol, no smoke, always trying to be fit with 3x week sport. Became suddenly yellow, done the liver-biopsy, nothing came out and still with high liver values (GPT, GOT). None of doctors have a fucking idea of what I have. Done all tests against all the kind of Hepatitis, but all of them were negative.
- rATRIJS 8y agoI become yellow from time to time ( although hasn't happened in a few years ) and was diagnosed with Gilbert's syndrome ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert%27s_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert%27s_syndrome ). First time it happened when I was ~15 and had to stay in hospital for a week or so until they figured out what was happening. For me physical over-exhaustion, too much spicy food or too much alcohol can / could trigger this.
- arkades 8y ago> increased values of the liver. Gilbert syndrome doesn't affect any liver function tests aside from unconjugated bilirubin - a value that reflects a backup of bilirubin processing, and not a liver-damaging process.
- arkades 8y agoInterested in elaborating and sharing some lab values and biopsy findings? Sounds interesting.
- IloveHN84 8y agoByopsy found a light inflammation of the tissue, but nothing was considered harmful and cleared even more the case of hepatitis-free condition. The maximum level of GPT touched the 27 Units/L (now 9.5), when the maximum value allowed is 0.75 and the bilirubin skyrocketed as well, now at 70 (vs. 25). GOP stays around 3.5 U/L (max allowed: < 1)
- illiac_1962 8y ago
- clumsysmurf 8y agoWhile we're talking about things we assume are healthy (but may not be) refined Inulin may cause liver cancer — a concern if more foods use it as an additive https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-10-adding-refined-fiber-food-negative.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-10-adding-refined-fiber-...
- munchhausen 8y agoThank you for posting this article. It gave me pause for thought. I have been taking a green tea supplement occasionally. I saw it in a vitamin store, and bought it because of the supposed benefits of antioxidants. I figured - I have a stressful job, I live in a polluted city and do drink alcohol - I probably need the antioxidants. Plus, something that's made out of green tea sounds safe, not likely do any harm, right? Well. I am disposing of the supplement, obviously. More to the point, though, I have to revisit my whole thinking process around supplements. I take a bunch of them, and it's purely on the basis of "I read a study somewhere or other that this is supposed to be good for you" - and not because I have a specific health concern that I need to address. This approach suddenly does not seem so sane anymore, and I need to take a step back and rethink what I am doing here. It's amazing how easy it is to gradually lose touch with your common sense, simply because you read the "right" subreddits (in this particular case, /r/nootropics), and start to subscribe to the hype.
- baccheion 8y agoNutrEval, a comprehensive hormone panel, a thyroid panel, and genetic testing. Keeping everything in the preferred range (for a 25 year old; can get more involved as time goes by) may be a better approach. Iodine protocol. MSM lotion.
- Tor3 8y agoThe general rule is: You don't need supplements. Period. That's because supplements provide (or are supposed to provide) trace elements that you need, but you only need a little bit of it. Like minerals and certain vitamins etc. The thing is - you basically need the same (trace) amount of it, whatever your lifestyle is. And you get it through eating a normal varied diet (e.g. a little meat, vegetables, some fish and seafood when you can, some (unprocessed) grains). So when do you not get enough of it? When you don't eat much food, or not enough of certain kinds of foods. Say, if you are a vegan with a sedentary life style. You're simply not getting enough of the trace elements through the restricted type of food you eat. If you're an athlete and you're also a vegetarian then you don't actually need food supplements at all - you're eating a lot of food due to the energy requirements and you'll get enough of it. Think Roman gladiator - they were vegetarians. No supplements needed. For some reason a lot of people think that you need supplements if you excercise a lot, while it's in reality the other way around.
- baccheion 8y agoGreen tea extract (EGCg) can cause liver damage in those with particular genetic mutations. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4324012/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4324012/
- rv-de 8y agoI'd assume pesticides play a big role in that case. It is a known problem and most countries exporting green tea leaves aren't know for effective regulation of food safety.
- throwaway487548 8y agoThe emphasis is on supplements, not green tea itself. Lots of chinese are habitually drinking very strong green tea all day long from one these fancy termos-like transparent cups (an ages old cultural phenomena, I suppose) and there is no side-effects despite ordinary caffeine overdose. Same is true with coffee. Societies with a coffee-culture, like Turkey or Italy have huge numbers of addicts but uncorrelated number of liver injuries.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoIf I recall correctly, the tea plant is great at taking up certain heavy metals from the soil. Quick search turned up something https://www.scribd.com/doc/24451227/Analysis-of-Heavy-Metals-in-Tea https://www.scribd.com/doc/24451227/Analysis-of-Heavy-Metals... Lead, Mercury, arsenic, aluminium, copper. Could be a concern?
- illiac_1962 8y agoYep. If you research green tea throughly this comes up as a major concern leading one to learn that it is very difficult to obtain any green tea that is free of toxins. Supposedly one of the best was regular Lipton tea bags.
- nabla9 8y agoMonitoring of essential and heavy metals in green tea from different geographical origins https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4762913/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4762913/ Same for many edible seeds. For example pumpkin seed and sunflower seed have high hyperaccumulation capacity.
- scns 8y agoAnother concern should be the Fukushima disaster, close to japans biggest teacultivation areas.
- magic_beans 8y agoWhy don't people just drink a cup of green tea!?
- dreamcompiler 8y agoThere are at least two big problems with supplements in the US: Their benefits and potential harm have not been evaluated by a rigorous scientific process, and it wouldn't matter if they had been because the potency, quality, and purity of their ingredients is almost entirely unregulated.
- ohnope 8y agoThis really makes me wonder if matcha powder poses a similar danger. Apparently it has 137 times the amount of EGCG compared to regular green tea
- kup0 8y agoInteresting thought. Matcha is powdered whole tea leaves, so one would be consuming far more of the internal ingredients of the leaf than they would by having other green teas, where the leaves are just being steeped in water. I guess the only questions there would be how concentrated Matcha is compared to the supplement forms and how much the body would absorb from it in this form. If the resulting dose is still a fraction of the supplement form, then it's likely safe if one doesn't drink a ton of it. Thanks for mentioning this though, as a tea drinker I've been considering getting some matcha, and now I need to research more before I do
- adrianN 8y agoYou are probably safe if you drink about as much Matcha as people who regularly drink Matcha. That is a cup or two a day. Drinking Matcha is supposed to be a ritualistic action, its preparation takes a bit of time and it should be drunk in a mindful manner. It's not a drink where you prepare a large amount and drink it throughout the day.
- drcode 8y agoI can't find the section in the article where his doctors provide any convincing rationale that his liver damage was caused by some green tea extract he briefly took a long time ago.
- tappaseater 8y agoApropos, Consumer reporters has a guide to alternative (about 1/2 way down): https://www.consumerreports.org/alternative-medicine/guide-to-natural-cures-alternative-medicine/ https://www.consumerreports.org/alternative-medicine/guide-t...
- bshep 8y agoI work in a transplant hospital ( for liver and other organs ) and we see A LOT of people with liver damage from suplements ( green tea, valerian root, etc ) I would recommend against any supplements unless you clear them with your doctor, some are ok like VitD ( in the correct dosage ) others are downright dangerous.
- internet555 8y agoI always figure if I should take something my doctor will just prescribe it
- nate_meurer 8y agoInteresting. How do you distinguish damage due to supplements from other causes, like viral hepatitis or alcohol?
- bshep 8y agoLiver Biopsy - appearance is different depending on etiology
- x2f10 8y agoWhat's a good Vitamin D dosage? Internet reports conflict.
- bshep 8y agoAs i mentioned above, talk to your doctor, there is no way to know what your specific situation requires ( also good advice is dont take advice from random people on the internet )
- sieveoferos 8y agoThis is not great reporting by the BBC. Most grievously, as others have mentioned, they don't mention the dosages this guy was taking. The important point to grasp behind all this concern over "supplements" is that there's no such thing as a supplement. Everything that's not a food is a drug. If something is not part of a human diet somewhere - i.e. if it's been extracted and refined significantly - then it's a drug. (Does that mean you regulate supplements? No, because then you end up in ridiculous situations like banning high doses of water-soluble B vitamins. Banning certain brands and formulations is sometimes appropriate.) Drugs have a dose-response curve, a median lethal dose, and all the rest. People taking "supplements" (taking them seriously, beyond taking a common-or-garden multivitamin you can pick up anywhere) should be aware of this and understand the risks. "Natural" doesn't mean safe. Polio is natural. Not all sets of genetics tolerate all "supplements" at recommended dosages. In vitro is not in vivo. Animal studies are not human studies. I got into nutrition and supplementation through bodybuilding, and within that community the knowledge that things you put in your body can hurt you, do your homework is fairly widespread and well passed-on. Unfortunately that perspective hasn't really permeated broader fitness culture. I think the attitude of "have this problem, take this pill" (without regard for risks or better options) is mostly at fault here. I'd argue corporate pharmaceutical companies have some culpability here - "ask your doctor if X is right for you" - or don't, and just bloody do some cardio or something. This article is only interesting if you still conflate "green tea" with "natural" and "natural" with "safe".
- istjohn 8y agoStrongly disagree. >This article is only interesting if you still conflate "green tea" with "natural" and "natural" with "safe". Green tea _is_ natural. And I conflate "consumed daily by millions of people for thousands of years without incident" with safe. Green tea is not an obscure herb like echinachea or ginko biloba. The idea that putting it in capsules would make it dangerous is not obvious at all. It sounds like magical thinking. So the fact that it is true, and it is in fact dangerous, is actually quite curious to my mind.
- dwighttk 8y agoBut you would still like to see the doseage he was taking though, right? (That was the original complaint)
- fchpr 8y agoI started using this kind of supplement -among others- and never used to eat any pill itself: instead I dissolve its content and try not to drink the particles that do not dissolve in it (like coffee sediments). Anyway liver and kidneys health are to be taken with caution when using any supplement.