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> Both of these would ensure that we can get smart and talented individuals from outside the US and would drastically improve the ability for the US to compete

> Both of these would ensure that we can get smart and talented individuals from outside the US and would drastically improve the ability for the US to compete while continuing to provide broad-based wage increases. As an immigrant, I'm all for better and easier immigration system. As a parent of an 11 year old, I can tell you that what your country really needs is not more smart and talented immigrants, but better education. When I was brought to work here on H-1B visa, I couldn't understand why the US would need so many immigrant software developers. Now that I've had 5 years to see what your schools are teaching kids, this is no longer a mystery to me. Your education is appalling and is the main reason why I'm planing to leave the country eventually.

ddingus 8y ago
You are spot on. Used to be, at least in my region of the USA, companies made local investments to build the talent pool needed. Tektronix is a stellar example. https://watch.opb.org/video/oregon-experience-the-spirit-of-tek/ https://watch.opb.org/video/oregon-experience-the-spirit-of-... People literally walked in off the street, got jobs, got education and went on to do great things. It costs more to do that, but the benefits are easily seen. Today, we see much less, and demand for people, largely from places that do continue to invest in people, has grown dramatically.
jorblumesea 8y ago
It really depends on the region and city, the US educational system has zero consistency across the nation. It also varies considerably by income, where rich school districts have educational standards above European levels, and where poor districts have standards on par with Latin America or even Africa. It's not that we don't produce educated people, it's we don't consistently produce educated people across the board and your location and income is a huge factor in your future success. Those living in West Virginia have almost no chance, and those living in California have much better opportunities. The US, like many countries, falls prey to sweeping generalizations that are at best partly true. Some state schools in not well known areas of the country are excellent and very affordable (IU, Purdue, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon).
- noobermin 8y ago
  Education in this country echos everything, it's a shadow of the extreme wealth inequality.
- nixme 8y ago
  Carnegie Mellon is neither a state school nor what I would call affordable.
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    why wouldn't you call it affordable? CMU has a $72k sticker price (which only 30% of students actually pay in full) and has an average financial aid award of $44k. if your parents are actually destitute, you will pay very little. the elite universities in america do not cost much more than a typical state school if you are poor.
- jhbadger 8y ago
  Of those, only IU and Purdue are "state universities". Case Western and Carnegie Mellon are private universities and aren't particularly affordable, although certainly more affordable than Harvard or Yale, etc.
i_phish_cats 8y ago
Nice anecdote. Here's another theory: American kids are being priced out of universities with good CS programs because those universities have burdensome pension programs that can only be paid by importing international students with rich parents.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  Don't go to university for CS.
- dev_dull 8y ago
  A story of underfunded pensions coming to a local municipality near all of us.
- Daishiman 8y ago
  Which countries with decent state-funded universities generally don't have because you've decided that the free market "works" in providing what is basically an essential service for the growth of society.
  - pitaj 8y ago
    US colleges used to be affordable before the federal government started pouring money into them with guaranteed loans. It's not a free market, but one distorted by government intervention.
    - apcragg 8y ago
      Oh yeah, all before all that government intervention those land Grant universities really pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.
      - dang 8y ago
        Please don't post like this here. If another comment is wrong, feel free to provide correct information, so we all learn something; or simply don't comment. Edit: You've posted uncivilly to HN before. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.
DataWorker 8y ago
Your opinion is obviously contradicted by the facts. The American education system is a major reason people immigrate here in the first place. Many of the best universities and research centers in the world happen to be in America. You may have some gripe about your kid’s teacher or whatever, but if you feel that a single data point from a parent’s biased perspective is more informative than the facts and statistics, then there’s not much point trying to have a reasonable conversation with you on this topic. You are choosing innumeracy and anecdote over easily accessible data.
- noobermin 8y ago
  Private, elite prep schools and colleges in the US are the best. The average college or high school is dismal compared to the rest of the world. We consistently score below the average of OECD countries.
  - core-questions 8y ago
    These stats are thrown off by a number of factors that it would be imprudent to get into here. Control for demographic samples similar to the other countries and you'll see a very different picture.
    - NeoBasilisk 8y ago
      So you're saying poor people in the US don't matter because they bring down the average?
      - anoncoward111 8y ago
        They matter, but they don't negate the statistical extremes. For what it's worth, I didn't go to any elite universities and I make less than 35,000 per year, so I don't have a horse in this race.
      - core-questions 8y ago
        I don't think that's what I'm saying. Of course they _matter_, as much as any of us do anyhow. What I'm saying is that if you actually compare people with similar demographically-expected IQ and socioeconomic situations, Americans stack up fine. It's the extenuating circumstances that drag the overall averages down. All that really means is that overall averages across 300 million people aren't that useful.
bookbinder 8y ago
How are U.S. schools failing students? What should they be doing/teaching instead? Where did you go to school? How did your education differ from what you've seen in America?
graeme 8y ago
Paul Graham pointed out that the US has 5% of the global population. But, it has been a magnet for talent, allowing it to punch above its weight in technology. You do make a good point. Perhaps america is only using 2.5 of it's 5%. Half, in other words. But that's still tiny compared to the sheer amount of foreign tech talent america has been able to benefit from.
wenc 8y ago
America's education is a paradox. The U.S. produces many of the world's great intellectuals, inventors and engineers. So how does it do it if the education system is that bad? The answer is that it isn't. This is what I've observed: Its K-12 education system isn't that great in general, but it's good enough. Its colleges however do a good job filtering the non-academically inclined and catching up those remaining to the rest of the world in 4 years. U.S. college graduates are no worse than say UK college grads in terms of ability, even in technical disciplines. Elite U.S. colleges arguably produce students of equal or higher quality and the elite universities in most countries. Taken broadly, U.S. grad schools are on par with the rest of the world. Its elite grad schools however are heads over heels better -- which is why everyone wants to go to grad school at a good US university. The funding is way better too. Certain European countries like France, and funneling societies like India and China, produce more highly trained technical types at the college level, but these advantages wash out at the graduate level. Most of the world optimizes education at the K-12 levels. The U.S. optimizes education at the tertiary level.
- sgc 8y ago
  I can agree that the graduate level in the US is good, and sometimes the best. But as someone who studied in Europe and taught undergrads in the US, they were appallingly poor students, entitled, and lazy. The university was and is considered (roughly) in the top 15% in national academic rankings, and one of the top for its region. No way they were graduating at the same level as many other countries.
  - carlmr 8y ago
    Yeah, I can only compare with Canadian undergrad and they were still far behind by 3rd and 4th year, even though the rankings show the universities higher. The rankings have little to do with quality of education and more with impact of research I presume (or they're entirely made up). At the graduate level (Master/PhD) I'd say it becomes comparable, but there were very few Canadian students compared to Chinese and Iranians.
    - 8y ago
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ddingus 8y ago

You are spot on. Used to be, at least in my region of the USA, companies made local investments to build the talent pool needed. Tektronix is a stellar example. https://watch.opb.org/video/oregon-experience-the-spirit-of-tek/ https://watch.opb.org/video/oregon-experience-the-spirit-of-... People literally walked in off the street, got jobs, got education and went on to do great things. It costs more to do that, but the benefits are easily seen. Today, we see much less, and demand for people, largely from places that do continue to invest in people, has grown dramatically.

jorblumesea 8y ago

It really depends on the region and city, the US educational system has zero consistency across the nation. It also varies considerably by income, where rich school districts have educational standards above European levels, and where poor districts have standards on par with Latin America or even Africa. It's not that we don't produce educated people, it's we don't consistently produce educated people across the board and your location and income is a huge factor in your future success. Those living in West Virginia have almost no chance, and those living in California have much better opportunities. The US, like many countries, falls prey to sweeping generalizations that are at best partly true. Some state schools in not well known areas of the country are excellent and very affordable (IU, Purdue, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon).

noobermin 8y ago
Education in this country echos everything, it's a shadow of the extreme wealth inequality.
nixme 8y ago
Carnegie Mellon is neither a state school nor what I would call affordable.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  why wouldn't you call it affordable? CMU has a $72k sticker price (which only 30% of students actually pay in full) and has an average financial aid award of $44k. if your parents are actually destitute, you will pay very little. the elite universities in america do not cost much more than a typical state school if you are poor.
jhbadger 8y ago
Of those, only IU and Purdue are "state universities". Case Western and Carnegie Mellon are private universities and aren't particularly affordable, although certainly more affordable than Harvard or Yale, etc.

i_phish_cats 8y ago

Nice anecdote. Here's another theory: American kids are being priced out of universities with good CS programs because those universities have burdensome pension programs that can only be paid by importing international students with rich parents.

microcolonel 8y ago
Don't go to university for CS.
dev_dull 8y ago
A story of underfunded pensions coming to a local municipality near all of us.
Daishiman 8y ago
Which countries with decent state-funded universities generally don't have because you've decided that the free market "works" in providing what is basically an essential service for the growth of society.
- pitaj 8y ago
  US colleges used to be affordable before the federal government started pouring money into them with guaranteed loans. It's not a free market, but one distorted by government intervention.
  - apcragg 8y ago
    Oh yeah, all before all that government intervention those land Grant universities really pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.
    - dang 8y ago
      Please don't post like this here. If another comment is wrong, feel free to provide correct information, so we all learn something; or simply don't comment. Edit: You've posted uncivilly to HN before. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.

DataWorker 8y ago

Your opinion is obviously contradicted by the facts. The American education system is a major reason people immigrate here in the first place. Many of the best universities and research centers in the world happen to be in America. You may have some gripe about your kid’s teacher or whatever, but if you feel that a single data point from a parent’s biased perspective is more informative than the facts and statistics, then there’s not much point trying to have a reasonable conversation with you on this topic. You are choosing innumeracy and anecdote over easily accessible data.

noobermin 8y ago
Private, elite prep schools and colleges in the US are the best. The average college or high school is dismal compared to the rest of the world. We consistently score below the average of OECD countries.
- core-questions 8y ago
  These stats are thrown off by a number of factors that it would be imprudent to get into here. Control for demographic samples similar to the other countries and you'll see a very different picture.
  - NeoBasilisk 8y ago
    So you're saying poor people in the US don't matter because they bring down the average?
    - anoncoward111 8y ago
      They matter, but they don't negate the statistical extremes. For what it's worth, I didn't go to any elite universities and I make less than 35,000 per year, so I don't have a horse in this race.
    - core-questions 8y ago
      I don't think that's what I'm saying. Of course they _matter_, as much as any of us do anyhow. What I'm saying is that if you actually compare people with similar demographically-expected IQ and socioeconomic situations, Americans stack up fine. It's the extenuating circumstances that drag the overall averages down. All that really means is that overall averages across 300 million people aren't that useful.

bookbinder 8y ago

How are U.S. schools failing students? What should they be doing/teaching instead? Where did you go to school? How did your education differ from what you've seen in America?

graeme 8y ago

Paul Graham pointed out that the US has 5% of the global population. But, it has been a magnet for talent, allowing it to punch above its weight in technology. You do make a good point. Perhaps america is only using 2.5 of it's 5%. Half, in other words. But that's still tiny compared to the sheer amount of foreign tech talent america has been able to benefit from.

wenc 8y ago

America's education is a paradox. The U.S. produces many of the world's great intellectuals, inventors and engineers. So how does it do it if the education system is that bad? The answer is that it isn't. This is what I've observed: Its K-12 education system isn't that great in general, but it's good enough. Its colleges however do a good job filtering the non-academically inclined and catching up those remaining to the rest of the world in 4 years. U.S. college graduates are no worse than say UK college grads in terms of ability, even in technical disciplines. Elite U.S. colleges arguably produce students of equal or higher quality and the elite universities in most countries. Taken broadly, U.S. grad schools are on par with the rest of the world. Its elite grad schools however are heads over heels better -- which is why everyone wants to go to grad school at a good US university. The funding is way better too. Certain European countries like France, and funneling societies like India and China, produce more highly trained technical types at the college level, but these advantages wash out at the graduate level. Most of the world optimizes education at the K-12 levels. The U.S. optimizes education at the tertiary level.

sgc 8y ago
I can agree that the graduate level in the US is good, and sometimes the best. But as someone who studied in Europe and taught undergrads in the US, they were appallingly poor students, entitled, and lazy. The university was and is considered (roughly) in the top 15% in national academic rankings, and one of the top for its region. No way they were graduating at the same level as many other countries.
- carlmr 8y ago
  Yeah, I can only compare with Canadian undergrad and they were still far behind by 3rd and 4th year, even though the rankings show the universities higher. The rankings have little to do with quality of education and more with impact of research I presume (or they're entirely made up). At the graduate level (Master/PhD) I'd say it becomes comparable, but there were very few Canadian students compared to Chinese and Iranians.
  - 8y ago

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