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DRM for chargers? Google Pixel 3 locks fast Qi charging to its own stand
- tinktank 8y agoGoogle just continue to prove they're a bunch of fetid, smelly cunts.
- sctb 8y agoPlease don't post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ascagnel_ 8y agoI wonder if we'll see more of this from device OEMs, if only to protect against things like iffy USB-C and Qi chargers that don't conform to standards. Standard Qi chargers don't put out enough power/heat to cause lasting issues, but a fast charger could. Similarly, Google's already seen major issues first-hand from an off-spec USB-C cable [0]. [0] https://www.engadget.com/2016/02/03/benson-leung-chromebook-pixel-usb-type-c-test/ https://www.engadget.com/2016/02/03/benson-leung-chromebook-...
- ConceptJunkie 8y agoIf only there were an organization that could test and certify that these products adhere to the standards...
- Fej 8y agoToo many counterfeits. The solution is basically what Apple did: put MFi chips in everything to ensure the valuable hardware isn't damaged, and lock down who can get the chips. Obviously this is very difficult for a standards body.
- CydeWeys 8y agoThere are such organizations, and yet the counterfeit problem persists (and the world's largest retailer does little to stop it). On-device protection is way more effective anyway.
- rkangel 8y agoMy guess is that the implementation is not good enough, and fast charging generates a lot of heat in the handset. Only with their own charging can they guarantee enough heat dispersion in the charger. Wireless charging is a bit lossy and can generate a lot of heat - I know this from experience designing devices, although everything else is guesswork. Whether it was always intended to be incompatible,or they had to put the hacky handshake in late in the process to prevent the device being 'a bit fiery' I don't know.
- opencl 8y agoWhat Google is doing here is specifically rejecting the chargers that do conform to the standard by tacking on a proprietary handshake. HP had a similar charging DRM scheme on their first few models with USB-C charging but seems to have dropped it. Apple has been doing this with non-MFi chargers since iOS 7. A lot of people were mad when the OS update made their perfectly good chargers stop working. Of course now there are clones of the MFi authentication chip and even with a new chip revision Apple can't reject them without also breaking all of the old legitimate chargers. So it completely failed to actually solve the problem anyway.
- djrogers 8y agoThis is bunk - I use a TON aid non-MFI chargers, and without exception they work as long as I have a decent cable. Old, dodgy or worn out cables can cause an error message but it’s got nothing to do with an MFI chip in the charger.
- opencl 8y agoAh yes sorry, I meant to say cable rather than charger.
- klohto 8y agoLocking chargers doesn't seem like kind of a thing EU would approve. Considering their stand on unifying all chargers. Let's see how this plays out.
- rando444 8y agoIt's not locking out other chargers, just the fast charging feature. Poorly implemented fast charging can ruin your phone's battery quicker than most anything else, so really the issue here is would you rather have google try and help protect your hardware or are you ok with taking the risk that all of the cheap chinese chargers you come across aren't going to damage your phone.
- kevin_b_er 8y agoSo if all "other chargers" for the wired version could only charge at 500mA, due to DRM, this would also be acceptable? This is straight out of the Apple playbook of vendor lock-in and overpriced accessories.
- drakenot 8y agoI believe Apple does something similar. There were only a few whitelisted Qi chargers which the iPhone X would negotiate with for fast(er) charging at launch. You couldn't take any old higher wattage Qi charger and get the increased charging rate.
- Aaargh20318 8y ago> Poorly implemented fast charging can ruin your phone's battery quicker than most anything else But isn't the charger basically just a power supply for the phone ? i.e. the actual charging is done by the phone itself, not the charger.
- tehbeard 8y ago"Smoothness" and stability of the incoming current is probably a factor.
- thrower123 8y agoFor a few shining years, you could basically charge any device with a micro-USB cord. I guess we're going back to having a culch drawer full of one-off proprietary connectors.
- azernik 8y agoNope. We're just in the middle of a transition to USB-C. Even this isn't a total lockout, it's just a restriction of certain (potentially damaging-to-the-device) features.
- ryanianian 8y agoAnd to be fair the USB-C transition is an utter disaster. You can't tell really at all what capabilities a given USB-C device or even cable has by its appearance. I have a mess of black and white USB-C cables and every time I try to hook up a random USB-C accessory or plug in my USB-C laptop to its 85watt charger I have to check to check if it's charging or transferring data at full-speed. I've resorted to adding a bit of white nail-polish to the cables that I know transfer at full speed and power. And good luck finding a quality USB-C hub that actually fulfills any of the promises of "only need to plug in one cable to run everything on your laptop at full-tilt."
- chx 8y ago> You can't tell really at all what capabilities a given USB-C device or even cable has by its appearance. I wrote this up at https://superuser.com/a/1200112/41259 https://superuser.com/a/1200112/41259
- Jyaif 8y agoFor me USB-C is briliant. Can charge everything (Laptop, Tablet, Nintendo Switch) except my iphone.
- ryanianian 8y agoIt "can charge" most things but maybe not at full-speed. E.g. only high-quality USB-C cables can charge at a full 85 watts. This is especially annoying with laptops where if you're doing CPU-intensive things you may end up with a dead battery at the end of the day even if you've been plugged in the whole time. So USB-C is nice if all you're doing is charging low-wattage devices. But whenever you're doing anything else, all bets are off as to whether your particular (device-a, cable, device-b) combination will work as you'd expect or not.
- samgranieri 8y agoThis probably won't fly...
- Skunkleton 8y agoI can tell you that is at least literally true.
- dhosek 8y agoDon't be evil.
- rishabhsagar 8y agoThe explanation of “This is to protect batteries from sub par quality chargers” is not particularly convincing to me. As a user, wouldn’t that be my call? Shouldn’t providing a safe charging be a charger manufacturer’s responsibility? Why is Pixel deciding to not accept charging at 10w from ‘unknown’ charging device? At best I can see the argument for not supporting charging from insecurely designed charger on the account of warranty, but even then I think it should be consumers call as to what device they are using to charge their phones and phone should at most warn me about unsafe chargers, rather than outright refusing to charge at full potential speed.
- JustSomeNobody 8y agoI agree. I find it a bit disturbing that people are sort of quick to defend this. I don't see this as being any different, other than scale, from what John Deere is doing.
- ryanianian 8y ago> I think it should be consumers call as to what device they are using If the sketchy charger bricks the phone but the customer is dishonest about using the sketchy charger at time of RMA, do you expect Google to engage in he-said-phone-said arguments with customers? "Ah but your big-brother device says it was plugged into a toaster oven last week."
- vidarh 8y agoIf a sketchy charger can brick the phone, I'd consider the phone broken by design.
- ryanianian 8y agoSo did Google? Not trying to be trite here, but that's essentially exactly the point. They didn't want to let a sketchy charger brick the phone, so they disallowed sketchy chargers. You could say that the phone should try to accept any charge and never break, but that's a nontrivial amount of electrical-engineering and expense involved in accepting basically any wattage/voltage that a sketchy charger may produce.
- chadlavi 8y agoI have an iPhone X, and use an inexpensive Samsung Qi charger. It doesn't do the fast charge, but I also only ever charge my phone at night. It's sitting there for 8ish hours anyway, so the fact that it takes like, maybe two hours to charge is a non-issue. I imagine many Pixel 3 owners will experience the same thing. A wireless charging pad is pretty naturally a "leave it sitting there overnight" spot. Doesn't really matter that it doesn't do the fast one.
- seanp2k2 8y agoI actually prefer a slower charge since it helps the battery last longer. I wish that the charging speed was software-configurable. I also have a samsung Qi charger on my desk, with another by my bed. They slow charge my iPhone, but if I need a quick boost because I’m going back out, I’ll plug it in to an Anker charger. It’d be great if one could do it all: slow charging overnight, with faster charging in the off-hours - it could even be automatic based on what it thinks you want (and learn your habits over time), with a software override.
- Rebelgecko 8y agoYou're on an iPhone so I suppose this doesn't help you much, but on my (Samsung) Android phone it's possible to use a program like Tasker to programmatically toggle fast charging based on location, time of day, current battery level, etc.
- Skunkleton 8y agoI have the opposite use case. For charging at night, I just plug in the the slow wired charger. Wireless charging is more useful to me in my car and at my desk.
- walshemj 8y agoYou don't have a usb cable permanently plugged in to you pc or laptop dock?
- 8y ago
- legohead 8y agoSo if Google has some standard that has to be met, can't they just make it public and let the third party companies get certified? Or sign some kind of agreement that they promise to adhere to the standards.. something
- yebyen 8y agoMore likely they make you pay to license the "new standard". (You could say you're paying to have your implementation certified, I don't know how they will do that. I think that Google won't want to be permanently in the business of making their own exclusive brand/line of wireless phone chargers.)
- vlovich123 8y agoThe problem isn't a question of standardizing it. The problem is that there needs to be a process for independently validating that the products adhere to the standard. There's a huge problem with poor quality/counterfeit chargers & they pose fire risks. No amount of documents solve that problem. Just good old testing of the product itself which is time-consuming & more expensive.
- LiterallyDoge 8y agoIs anyone else not impressed with modern phones? They all seem like the same as last year but with more arbitrary restrictions and a higher price tag.
- m52go 8y agoYeah. Last phone I bought was in 2015, and I haven't felt a compelling need to upgrade since then.
- JustSomeNobody 8y agoI have a 6S that, while it's running fine, I would like to upgrade for a better camera. But, I want to keep the same size. So, my options are to get a year old 8 or a XS. The XR and XS Max are too large. I really don't want to spend $1000 on a phone. That's absurd to me. I'll probably end up waiting another year. I've ruled out Android out of personal preference. Not an endorsement of iOS or a condemnation of Android. Just preference.
- sempron 8y agoYou could consider a used/refurb X. That might be the sweet spot under $1k, if you’re okay not buying new.
- LiterallyDoge 8y agoIt would be very cool to have an OS option that isn't from one of these two brands. Neither seem to be very respectful of the customer, Google for its privacy practices, and Apple is just so heavy-handed it's hard to take them seriously when they say they care about the user.
- Brakenshire 8y agoBest contenders at the moment seem to be the Librem 5, which is running essentially mobile Gnome Linux, or the e foundation / eelo, which is trying to build a privacy friendly platform on top of AOSP/Lineage, but still attempt compatibility with Play Services API’s.
- vfclists 8y agoComplain to Margrethe Vestager. Google bosses tremble in their boots whenever they see blue stockings.
- officialchicken 8y agoEither google doesn't know how to implement the Qi standard[0], the wireless power consortium compatibility tests are complete garbage[also 0], and/or they have discovered a known defect and are trying to work around in order to prevent another airplane-fire recall kind of situation (highly unlikely, if true). I hope that Qi pulls their licence for this move, but I doubt it. [0]https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/products/details/4826/pixel-3 https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/products/details/482...
- vlovich123 8y agoI believe 10w charging is a non-standard extension to Qi. QC & Apple have competing implementations & I'm not clear what version Pixel is using. Apple definitely also restricts 10w charging to MFI-certified 3P chargers. If Google doesn't enable validated 3P chargers that would be a shame.
- neil_s 8y agoThe article already quotes a 3P charger that passes the certification and is available to purchase.
- writtenabode 8y agoYou can actually read the specification here: https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/downloads/download-wireless-power-specification.html https://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/downloads/download-w... As of at least 1.2.2 (April 2016) the Qi spec has supported 15 W through an Extended Power Profile A Baseline Power Profile supporting transfer of up to about 5 W and an Extended Power Profile supporting transfer of up to about 15 W of power using an appropriate Secondary Coil (having a typical outer dimension of around 40 mm).
- djrogers 8y ago> Apple definitely also restricts 10w charging to MFI-certified 3P chargers. Bunk - Apple doesn’t certify chargers, just the lightning cables that connect to them.
- theshrike79 8y agoJust imagine the shitstorm if it was s/Google Pixel 3/Apple iPhone/ The amount of angry tweets and 10+ minute long YouTube rants (for the monetization) would break the internet.
- throwaway_45 8y agoThis seems something apple like. I think Google is pretty evil now. The company needs to be replaced.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agoAre the Pixels actually that popular? I feel like another company (Samsung, LG) could corner the market on the "pure android" phone and have a better product. I'm surprised Google feels so confident with it's mediocre and overpriced phones.
- TheAdamist 8y agoon time patches, a superior camera, there are a few reasons to get a pixel. 9 month off product cycle from other android manufacturer means a cpu that will be a generation behind in 3 months when the next samsung, etc release though. As well as other drawbacks.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agoThat's why I was saying that that they need to get onto Android base - then the only thing will be the camera, which to be fair, Google is really great at.
- andr 8y agoIt's also disappointing that while Pixel 3 supports USB-PD, which is forward looking, it has no support for older protocols, even conventional 2.4A USB charging. I tried charging one with my car USB port and it the charging rate was lower than the power consumption, so it died after a few hours of navigation. There are tons of conventional chargers out in the world (card, hotels and airports, power banks, etc.) and it's stupid to deprecate them, especially given that the Snapdragon inside actually supports those.
- dstaley 8y agoAs far as I can tell, there's no such thing as "conventional 2.4A USB charging". The USB 2 spec limits power output to 5v, 900 mA. USB 3 has the Battery Charging Specification that allows up to 1.5 A. I think you might be thinking of Qualcomm Quick Charge?
- aidenn0 8y agoUSB 2.0 Battery Charging Spec 1.2 goes up to 5A.
- ianburrell 8y agoThe USB Battery Charging spec is separate from USB3. The 1.5A is the minimum available current for charging port; the max is 5A. But the limit for legacy USB cables is 2.4A.
- bitwize 8y agoYou really don't want to go plugging your phone into a random USB port, irrespective of whether it's compatible with the charger or not.
- ianburrell 8y agoIt is pretty unbelievable that it doesn't and I haven't seen any other reports. Lots of car USB ports only provide the base 500 mA. Did you try any other USB chargers? Did you use Ampere app to see the current?
- j45 8y ago2 deflating thoughts; - Qi has always been a slow charge thing in my books. If that's changed, the specifications for the Qi charger required could very clearly be listed, and the Pixel could track the specs of the power coming in at some level I'd hope. - If sub-par quality QI chargers are a potential hazard, I would say sub-par AC chargers are a far larger hazard from installed footprint. That lock-in would have happened a long time ago if it would have been tolerated by Apple and Google. Someone will likely find a workaround.
- vlovich123 8y agoApple does disable 3rd party chargers that haven't been certified, at least for high-power charging.
- stephengillie 8y agoThis adds to the list of reasons why I won't be getting a Pixel 3. Other reasons include the notch on the screen, the glass on the back, and the reduced efficacy of autocorrect. I'm using a Pixel 2 currently, and the back is heavily cracked because I am clumsy and drop it often. Who puts glass on the back of the phone and why?
- falcrist 8y agoI'm definitely with you about the whole glass-back issue. I know people like wireless charging, but glass isn't the only option. Can we please go back to plastic? It was lighter and far more impact resistant. Also, can I just have a rectangular screen? I don't need it to be curved or have rounded edges. I'm ok with a chin and/or forehead bezel. No notch, though. Not to mention headphone jacks, removable batteries, and physical buttons.
- etaioinshrdlu 8y agoQi is the most disgusting over-complicated protocol ever.
- maxxxxx 8y agoPretty sad to see where things are going. Computing started with everything being proprietary, then from the 80s on you saw wide open systems and standards developed. And I think standards are what enabled the rapid growth of the industry and the internet. And now the big players are trying to revert and make everything proprietary again. No standard protocols, hardware that barely can be opened or repaired.
- r00fus 8y agoThink of patents unrestrained (thanks to some really bad jurisprudence in the 90s and beyond) as the antithesis of open standards.
- neil_s 8y agoGiven the update, isn't it pretty clear that this article is nothing but FUD? The general standard, Qi, only supports charging at 5W. Pixels support this standard perfectly. Google also made an adapted standard that charges at 10W. Chargers need to pass certain tests to prove they can implement this charging standard correctly. Once certified, then they can charge Pixels faster using this standard. There is plenty of evidence quoted by others of how shoddily implemented aftermarket chargers can damage phones. I'm not an expert in wireless charging technologies so please correct me if I got something wrong.
- calcifer 8y ago> The general standard, Qi, only supports charging at 5W. This is false. Only the low power Qi standard is 5W. Medium power is up to 120W and there is talk of a high power mode up to 1kW.
- askvictor 8y agoGiven that medium power is designed for laptops and monitors and such, it would be safe to presume the size and weight of that spec wouldn't be applicable to phone applications. So, the Qi spec applicable to phones only supports 5W.
- ucaetano 8y ago> This is false. The other standards are irrelevant to this discussion. Technically, you are correct, but still irrelevant.
- Corrado 8y agoSo, would this problem be solved if Google labeled Qi charging as "standard-speed" and their own proprietary charging as "high-speed"? It seems like people are getting hung up on both things being called highest-speed charging, when in fact you only get the best charging performance from the Google branded chargers. This seems similar to my Nexus 6 phone. It shipped with a Google high-speed charger (wired) which offers a 15 minute "fast charge" mode. However, if I plug it into an Apple charger (which will work just fine) it doesn't use fast charge mode and reverts to standard charge mode. I'm perfectly OK with this situation.
- alinspired 8y agogoogle playing by apple's book to extract revenues, one more nail in "don't be evil" coffin
- exabrial 8y agoNo headphone jack? Can't use the fast charger that came in my vehicle? Nope and Nope. Buy the LG v35 or v40. These phones have a headphone jack, has an OLED screen, is waterproof, has an SD card slot, works on Project Fi, and if you've ever dealt with LG customer support, they're great. The v35 has a 'normal' lens and a 'wide angle' camera, and the v40 has both of those plus a telephoto. The Pixel2's portrait mode was abysmal compared to the offerings from Apple, but LG's portrait mode absolutely stomps both the pixel and iphone. There's no reason to buy a pixel.
- romwell 8y agoAlso Moto G6 / Nokia 7 are pretty strong contenders in the $300-something no-bullshit phone segment with dual lens (I'm very happy about my G5+ camera's depth simulation - and my main shooter is a Fuji X100 with F2.0 lens on an APSC sensor, so care about that!).
- exabrial 8y agoThe downvotes crack me up. I suggested a product that addresses all of the weaknesses of the OT. A fellow commentor suggested some more affordable alternatives. I'd really like to why you felt the need to give the passive aggressive downvote without a comment; that to me would be interesting.
- rajacombinator 8y agoShocking that Apple hasn’t pulled this BS yet. I guess next model we’ll see it.
- a-dub 8y agoeh, they don't strike me as a company where some marketing doofus pushed this through to try and make an extra buck. seems more likely that they wanted to see how far they could push the wattage and in doing so they found some pretty tight tolerances with respect to safety and reliability so they took care to ensure that it would only work in the tested configuration. at the end of the day, it still supports the standard. would be nice to see them try to push the standard forward, which they still very well may do.
- xg15 8y ago> Google got back to us. The Pixel 3 does not support 10W Qi charging at all. It supports 10W wireless charging, and it supports the Qi wireless charging standard, but these are two different things. Qi is capped at 5W, and for 10W wireless charging, you need a charger with what Belkin calls "Google's 10W proprietary wireless charging technology." Google says it is "certifying" chargers for the Pixel 3 via the "Made for Google" program... Isn't this almost a textbook example of "embrace, extend, extinguish"?
- kazinator 8y ago> but it's hard to imagine a justification for this. There are dubious chargers out there that are outright unsafe. It is in no way hard to imagine the argument that don't want to pull 10W through some no-name made-in-China piece of crap you got from Amazon that will burn your house down, because it wasn't even tested at 5W.
- spacecase-25 8y agoIs there anything about the Pixel 3 that doesn't suck?