25 ms·
Spent – Poverty Simulator (2011)
- wolfgke 8y agoInstead of complaining about how evil society is that it leaves them in the lurch, poor people should rather be mad at their (often poor) parents that the parents give birth to them.
- jamesblonde 8y agoBut who will drive the better off people in their Uber, deliver their groceries, and clean their houses, if there are no poor people left?
- jerkstate 8y agowe'll just import some third-worlders to do that stuff while we're waiting for the eggheads to fully automate everything, what could go wrong?
- darpa_escapee 8y agoDoes HN think the third-worlders should hate their parents for giving birth to them even if they get an "opportunity" to make it in America?
- arethuza 8y agoRobots, apparently.
- golergka 8y agoThis. It always baffles me why people are not shamed more for having kids when they clearly have no resources of place for them in their lives.
- SolaceQuantum 8y agoBecause chances are people who are systematically impoverished are also not properly educated on how to exercise birth control in effective manners, or don't have the resources to access abortion services (especially in states where there are less than a handful of clinics that offer the services in the first place of have regulations explicitly to limit a woman's bodily autonomy rights), or had children before the breadwinner of the family was put in jail or otherwise lost their jobs due to the disproportionate choice in law enforcement in USA. There is, in fact, a massive confluence of reasons why poor people end up having children, and shaming them for doing so instead of helping those reasons will not help anyone.
- empath75 8y agoAlso, because they're like _human beings_ who need a family like everyone else does.
- golergka 8y agoShaming is education. It creates a very strong cultural and emotional tie to knowledge, motivating people to act in a certain way. If we lived on a planet where every person was a rational, level-headed adult, lectures and books would be enough of an education. Sadly, most of the people are irrational and emotional; if you want to steer them towards better life decisions, for their sake as well as society's, shame is a very good tool.
- darpa_escapee 8y agoShaming creates pariahs. Shaming gives others the incentive to ignore, blame, shun, harm and not help those who are shamed. America has a long, ugly history of shaming single mothers, sexual abuse victims, adulterers and interracial and non-heterosexual relationships. I don't think that we should encourage more of it. > Sadly, most of the people are irrational and emotional; if you want to steer them towards better life decisions, for their sake as well as society's, shame is a very good tool. Would you use the word 'paternalistic' to describe your views on an ideal society?
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
- fallingfrog 8y agoReally?? Rather than help people who are struggling to take care of their children, you'd rather shame them, creating another generation of neglected children who grow up into undereducated, angry young people? What is wrong with you?
- wolfgke 8y ago> Really?? Rather than help people who are struggling to take care of their children, you'd rather shame them Offering free vasectomies (subsidized from tax money) would indeed not a bad idea to help these people before the problem occurs.
- JustSomeNobody 8y agoYes. Let's sterilize the poor before they reproduce! /s !
- fallingfrog 8y agoOr, we could give free vasectomies to people who display a total lack of empathy. Don't want to pollute the gene pool!
- wolfgke 8y ago> Or, we could give free vasectomies to people who display a total lack of empathy. If you mean me: I have good, deep reasons why I do not even want children (these reasons shall by off-topic here). And I live by my words so that other people can follow my anti-natalist example. :-)
- golergka 8y agoFalse dichotomy logic fallacy. These things are not at all mutually exclusive.
- zeroname 8y agoI'm gonna answer your loaded question honestly: Yes, I would rather shame people who are "having kids when they clearly have no resources of place for them in their lives" than spending any of my personal resources on actually helping them, if those are the only two choices I have. Your empathy in and of itself is worthless. How much of your income are you personally willing to give up to bail out people who make poor choices? Where do you draw the line? I hope we can agree that having children without having the resources to take care of them is a poor choice. All that "neglect and undereducation" is due to that poor choice, first and foremost. Welfare doesn't fix the problem. Just look at all the "angry young people" in France (20% youth unemployment), a country which has some of the strongest welfare programs in the world, including free university education.
- cure 8y agoBirth control is expensive. Birth control often requires regular, routine access to the healthcare system. This is a problem when you're poor. At the time of conception, nobody knows how things will turn out in their life a few years down the line. Will I still have that job that allows me to pay my bills? Will I have been bankrupted by an acute medical issue, because I lost my health insurance at a critical moment? Having kids is a commitment. But you have to take a leap of faith. You can't just undo that commitment later, or walk away from it. But shaming people for having kids? Have you no heart? How on earth is that going to help with anything? Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids?
- golergka 8y ago> Will I still have that job that allows me to pay my bills? Will I have been bankrupted by an acute medical issue, because I lost my health insurance at a critical moment? There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not neccesarilly a heterosexual or even romantic one) it plain stupid? > Is it going to make their lives better? Is it going to help the kids? When you shame someone for bad decision, the purpose is not to influence these exact people. The purpose is to create a strong understanding in the whole culture that this is a bad decision, and prevent other people from doing the same.
- cure 8y ago> There is always some uncertainty in life. And yet, we're somehoe able to make decisions despite this uncertainty. However, you take this uncertainty argument to absurd levels - by your logic, no human being should be expected to be responsible for any life decision, ever, because uncertainty. I think my point didn't come across. I wasn't talking about avoiding responsibility. I simply meant that it's easy to make assumptions. Just because someone has a child and doesn't have the resources to care for it, doesn't mean that it was always that way. Things in life don't always go as planned. > How about we just presume that having a child without a good, reliable job and some sort of partner (not necessarily a heterosexual or even romantic one) is plain stupid? Personally, I agree with that statement. But who am I to judge other people on their choice to have kids? That's just not my place. And I am also a realist - things happen. Live throws curve-balls. Birth control doesn't always work. And sometimes people do things that are not smart in the spur of the moment. Procreation is a very powerful drive. It seem to me that more and better education and easier/cheaper access to birth control would be a more effective way to help people make smart choices about having children.
- JustSomeNobody 8y agoWOW! So, only the well-to-do are allowed to have kids? What dystopia do you live in!?
- crooked-v 8y agoEven the most fiscally responsible middle-class person in the US can become entirely broke with massive debt after getting handed medical bills in the six figures.
- empath75 8y agoThis is so absurdly misanthropic that I can't possibly believe you're being serious.
- perkee 8y agoThe nerve of humans deigning to follow their only drives: survive and replace themselves. Disgusting. A 1.2 billion year unbroken line of sexual reproduction should be enough for anyone.
- thanatropism 8y agoLike everything in social policy, this is more complicated than downvoters realize. Many people who look comfortable in their DINKy lifestyles would love to have kids if they could give them the best in life. I mean, we refuse to have a _dog_. I've been wanting to get a tortoise though. I'm told that once you get their living arrangement right, with the special lamp and whatnot, they're easy to care for.
- onemoresoop 8y agoWhat if people have kids when the economy is booming and soon fall into poverty due to the economy bust cycle and other factors such as crazy medical bills or some bad luck. Most Americans can't afford kids if they keep in mind that the economy is a rollercoaster and unpredictable events pul them down.
- apsec112 8y agoPast Hacker News thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3070094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3070094
- sdwisely 8y agoI actually got quite depressed playing the game, then reading the quite dismissive comments of 2011. It was kind of nice to switch back to the current discussion and see it lean a bit more toward empathy for the poor.
- pavel_lishin 8y agoSomething I've realized here, and in other discussions I'm randomly having: I think most people just don't think things through and can't put themselves sufficiently deeply into another person's shoes. Someone just asked me, "why do you have to register to vote? why can't I show up with a passport?" - which sounds reasonable until you start thinking about local elections, where you need to prove that you live in a certain area, and then the need for some sort of registration becomes more obvious. (Or another refactoring of the system, at least.) Same here - people think, "why do you need a car, I certainly don't need one on the Upper East Side!" - and for them, they don't. In rural Texas, not having one means you're very geographically bound, and effectively unemployable. So, for some things, I don't think it's just a lack of empathy; it's just a quick knee-jerk comment on an internet forum.
- Kalium 8y agoA year or two back, I had an encounter with an artist. They were in some financial distress. This person blamed Uber and a company they'd rented a car from for this distress, telling a tale of woe and failed art shows. They included numbers. I took the numbers provided and worked out what their finances looked like. Tracked income and outlays. It quickly became clear that while Uber hadn't helped their situation, the several thousand dollars they had spent on financially unsuccessful art shows had more to do with their distress. The artist in question was blown away. They'd literally never encountered the notion of tracking their money in a meaningful sense. What I learned from this is that what's unimaginable to me - such as the idea of budgeting being entirely foreign - is someone else's normal. I also learned that it's impossible to put myself into their shoes fully, because life experiences can easily diverge wildly.
- narrator 8y agoThis game needs in-app purchases so you can win at it faster.
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoHow about crime? Didn't play for long, but an "pay off your credit card by thieving from someone" option adds another interesting facet.
- jbverschoor 8y agoFunny, because I have no way to see what my state is. How I live, subscriptions etc. So everything comes at a surprise.
- tantalor 8y agoThe "college loan due" really came as a shock. I had a college degree??
- Bartweiss 8y agoOr part of one? Heck, there are a lot of people still paying off debt from ITT Tech; you can get Pell grants reduced if the college closes while you're attending, but not private ones.
- levesque 8y agoCollege degree, working a 9$ / hr job. Not saying this is impossible, but probably not the case of most college degree holders.
- shittyadmin 8y agoGotta say, kinda crappy. Why do I have a car? I'm wasting so much money on insurance and gas - that would never work out better than renting a shitty place closer than bussing distance. Accept the commute, even most of the middle class does it anyways so they can live in a bigger house. And it just randomly decided to take tutoring money away even though I answer its math question correctly? Why do I have over $7000 on my CC bill? Was I living well above my means for some reason? Why do I have a kid? That was a rather poor financial planning decision...
- felipellrocha 8y agoDo you live in the US? People are basically forced to own a car here in order to live
- trevyn 8y agoThat is not at all true if you're anywhere near an urban center.
- bg4 8y agoHave you been to DFW?
- empath75 8y ago> if you're anywhere near an urban center. This isn't true even in most urban centers.
- ceejayoz 8y agoThat's true for a few, specific urban centers in the US - NYC, DC, SF, Seattle, etc. - but there are plenty of urban areas in the US with really poor public transit systems.
- Regardsyjc 8y agoI live in NYC and the deeper you get into the boroughs, the more a car is necessary/helpful, especially with how unreliable the MTA is these days. Also most parts of NYC with good transit, shorter commutes are also probably more expensive rent-wise. There's news articles about how the worst low income areas of NYC don't have good transport options.
- fallingfrog 8y agoSuch deja vu! This was my life for years.
- fallingfrog 8y agoI never had health insurance though. This was pre-affordable care act. My teeth were falling out after a decade of no dental coverage. I almost died from pneumonia. For some reason, I turned out to be a socialist..
- StavrosK 8y agoI know someone from Canada who had the exact same experience (homelessness/drugs/poverty) and is now a staunch conservative, believing that there should be no socialized insurance or provision for anyone. His rationale is "I picked myself up with no help from the state, so why should I have to pay for others? If you're poor, it's because you're lazy". I was of the opinion that the help he received from his church is just a smaller version of socialized healthcare, but he disagreed.
- fallingfrog 8y agoI believe you, but I find it impossible to understand that point of view.. I see a person in their 50's bagging groceries or working the drive through and I think to myself, could have easily been me, different childhood interests, different opportunities, just slightly worse luck and I could have been in your position. And still might, depending on if the economy tanks or if I get brain damage from being hit by a car or something.
- StavrosK 8y agoMe too. I guess he thinks that anyone can have the interests/luck/opportunities he can? Who knows.
- sergiotapia 8y agoI'm seeing like a site to purchase things for people in need. Can someone link the game, I can't find it in the website's current design.
- JosephRedfern 8y agohttps://donatenow.networkforgood.org/UMDurham?code=SPENT https://donatenow.networkforgood.org/UMDurham?code=SPENT
- jstanley 8y agoOn opting out of playing the lottery: > It may seem like a waste of money, but for people like you who have no 401(k) or savings account, it can look like an investment in a better future. How is that advice helpful? A lottery ticket is not an investment in any way.
- pavel_lishin 8y agoNeither is a movie ticket, but sometimes you can treat yourself a bit.
- jonathankoren 8y agoI don’t think it was meant as advice, just an explanation.
- procparam 8y agoIt's not "helpful" in the sense that it's the smart decision for anyone. The point is, that's actually how real people see the lottery. A big payout feels more likely than a $100k/yr job when you've been under the poverty line long enough. Remember, the goal of this game isn't to see how efficiently you get to the end; it's to help you put yourself in the shoes of people actually in this position.
- habosa 8y agoLottery tickets are sort of interesting. Yes they are a bad deal, but they're the highest variance "investment" you can get by a long shot. If you're very poor and stuck in a bad situation, there could 0.0% chance you ever become a millionaire through the normal mechanisms, maybe spending $1 a week on a lottery ticket raises that to 0.00000000001% and creates a bit more hope in your mind. Again, I'd never advise anyone to buy a lottery ticket. But if it makes you hopeful, maybe it's a better treat for yourself than a chocolate bar.
- erichurkman 8y agoWant to see something scary? https://www.businessinsider.com/powerball-mega-millions-how-much-states-spend-on-lottery-tickets-2018-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/powerball-mega-millions-how-... Per capita lottery spend by state: Massachusetts @ $761/year. West Virginia @ $594/year. Georgia @ $391/year.
- andrewclunn 8y agoI am going to pay the higher rent and avoid car ownership. Oh wait, it told me I can't. It's almost like the game is rigged in order to make a point to claim that the system is rigged without actually taking into account that there are legitimate trade offs to different decisions. Lame.
- swazzy 8y agoOne of my favorite games growing up was Jones in the Fast Lane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jones_in_the_Fast_Lane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jones_in_the_Fast_Lane).
- dagurp 8y agomine too! I don't really know why
- wtmt 8y agoVery well done. In a personal or online conversation, it takes a little while to explain how bad things can be for the poorer people and how it’s a vicious circle (or like struggling in quicksand). Many people don't get this without an explanation. A couple of suggestions: 1. The Facebook and Twitter icons were too close to the last choice on the screens, and I ended up tapping on them when I intended to tap on the last option. This was on a phone. Please move those buttons down a bit. 2. The site didn’t work on Firefox Focus onnthe phone. But it did work on Brave. Something about Firefox Focus’s blocking must’ve caused this. I didn’t have time to figure out the issue.
- esotericn 8y agoI don't think you can call a demonstration that deliberately excludes many available options a "simulator". If you are poor, then living alone or taking on a lease is insane. The implicit assumption that you can't move and that "the rent" is as high as it is in this demo is untrue. So what you end up with in this demo is a race against unsustainably high costs because you arbitrarily can't remove them.
- aisengard 8y ago> So what you end up with in this demo is a race against unsustainably high costs because you arbitrarily can't remove them. Actually sounds pretty realistic to me. People tend not to have as much agency as we like to think.
- esotericn 8y agoCare to elaborate?
- aisengard 8y agoIn this simulation you have a kid. What roommate is going to be okay rooming with a little kid? Then you have to consider safety concerns. Are you okay with your kid living in the same place as some stranger? "Just get a roommate" is not always an option. This applies to lots of other "obvious" solutions people like to come up with when it's not them.
- true_religion 8y agoMy home country has no social safety net. In my experience, people with kids just end up room sharing together with other families. It is not common in the US because there are aid programs for people with children that suffice to let them get private housing, and at the very least pay for their childrens food.
- esotericn 8y agoI'm thinking of a "bad health simulator" that starts at age 50 after a lifetime of eating a terrible diet. Obviously there will be no good choices, everything will be limited. It's not an interesting "simulation" because it's effectively just stating that you can run your life into a corner if you don't pay attention.
- diddid 8y agoI was expecting this to be interesting and was excited to play, but it's not. In fact I found it annoying. But maybe that's the point. From playing it made me thing I could get out of poverty. "You've made your bed and now you need to sleep in it."
- mattlondon 8y ago75usd on a phone bill? Really? Basic plans with unlimited calls and texts, and maybe half a gig of data are about £6-8 (say 8-10USD) here (1). 75 USD should be enough for 6 months service in any other western country, easily. The cell phone bill makes me question how realistic this "simulator" is. Are the healthcare costs realistic? Obviously in every other western country these costs would be zero (or very close to zero if you don't qualify for 100% free prescriptions in the UK at least). Is healthcare really that bad in the US? Really? Genuinely staggering if so. 1 - https://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/compare/sim_only_deals/ https://www.uswitch.com/mobiles/compare/sim_only_deals/
- brianwawok 8y agoWe don't have great cheapo phone plans compared to Europe. I think the fancy pants bells and whistles ones can be closer. Healthcare tends to suck if you don't get it provided by your workplace. If you have a job with healthcare, your outcomes are pretty decent (on average, better than Europe in many cases, for example Cancer survival rates). If you don't have a job it is all free, as no one to make a broke person pay. If you are in the doughnut of <have a few dollars> to <paying $300 a month for healthcare> is a big deal you are really screwed. Developers are past that doughnut, so we do okay. Plenty of people do not though.
- Raphmedia 8y ago(Canadian) I pay $35/month for 1GB of mobile internet + unlimited phone calls/texts. Over that, I pay 47$/month for unlimited 30Mbps internet. That's ignoring taxes. Take a look: https://www.planhub.ca/quebec/compare-cellphone-plan/0min.1000MB.2.1-9-2-5-8-6-7-4-10 https://www.planhub.ca/quebec/compare-cellphone-plan/0min.10... https://www.planhub.ca/quebec/compare-internet-plan/search?locality=nc&postal=nc&downloadspeed=30Mbps&uploadspeed=0Mbps&bandwidth=unlimited-data&services=&provider=all-carriers&searchinput=%20 https://www.planhub.ca/quebec/compare-internet-plan/search?l... Remember that the province I live in is more the size of France and is covered with ice during winter. Carriers have to support the entire province and then the entire country. See those size comparison: https://mapfight.appspot.com/quebec-vs-fr/quebec-france-size-comparison https://mapfight.appspot.com/quebec-vs-fr/quebec-france-size... https://mapfight.appspot.com/ca-vs-fr/canada-france-size-comparison https://mapfight.appspot.com/ca-vs-fr/canada-france-size-com...
- dnautics 8y agoHaving been (relatively) poor, I've seen all these things, but not in a single month.
- emddudley 8y agoIf I were only earning $1000/mo then my Affordable Care Act health insurance would be free...
- ceejayoz 8y agoWith a $13k deductible... edit: Don't get me wrong, it's better than nothing. I'm on the exchanges myself. That said, a major illness is still going to be a massive financial hit even with subsidized premiums.
- wtallis 8y agoAt ~$1000 per month, you're either on Medicaid, stuck in the coverage gap if you live in the wrong state, or getting both premiums and deductibles subsidized so that the deductible is at least an order of magnitude lower than $13k. If you qualify for subsidies and are earning slightly more than the poverty line, the only way to get close to a $13k deductible is to deliberately avoid the plans that qualify for the most subsidies.
- beatgammit 8y agoI make significantly more than that and my ACA coverage is almost free. There are all sorts of problems with this, such as: - assumption of a car (within 5 miles, cycling is completely reasonable, and it improves health) - single income w/child apparently? That's not my situation at all - Why does laundry cost $30? Most places near me are $5-10 - Why is my mobile phone $75? I can find lots of plans for cheaper - why do I start with $1k? I've had way more than that since I was a teenager; I always keep 3-6 months of expenses for precisely this reason - why does not paying a bill for one month result in immediate closure? Most utilities don't shut off services until 3 or so months of missing payments However, the app is pretty eye opening because it _doesn't_ fit my situation. I'm very interested in helping the poor get out of the cycle of poverty (it's my life's goal).
- root_axis 8y agoThe "Ask a friend" social media thing is really obnoxious.
- madeuptempacct 8y agoOne thing I noticed immediately is that this person has a lot of luxuries: 1. Child. 2. Pet (went to the shelter)
- crooked-v 8y agoConsidering the mere existence of a child to be a "luxury" is fundamentally bad for society.
- brianwawok 8y agoI lost when my landlord raised rent $150. My options were pay or argue. I picked argue, I lost, $150 went away. In reality I would have squatted and forced them to spend 6 months evicting me, giving me time to save up firsts month rent for a new place.
- Kalium 8y agoThat's a very clever idea! In many places eviction is a drawn-out process that can be taken advantage of. It's worth considering that that approach might be an excellent way to make it very, very difficult to get a new place. Squatting to afford rent on a new place is very much like declaring bankruptcy so you can afford a new car loan, complete with the major black mark on your credit report that makes it much more difficult to get a reasonable interest rate. This is less fanciful than it sounds, as agencies that track information about your rental history can and do exist. Your idea is very clever. It's maybe worth thinking about if clever is the same thing as a good idea.
- sigi45 8y agoInteresting to see those comments on a platform whee the avg warning and chances is way higher than what reality looks for lots of other people. Yes this game is not realistic. Now let's talk about fairness and responsibilities of us for all others.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jldugger 8y agoEyeballing it with a spreadsheet, simulator offers $1440 in monthly income, but at least $2000 in expenses. You've got a car to pay off and insure, a kid, a pet, a heap of CC debt, and a cell phone bill triple what I pay. You're renting an apartment, but you have monthly gas and electric bills of 125 and 150. Internet fees are higher than I'm paying now. And zero access to credit to make any investments you'd need to make, or tax credits for dependent children, retirement savings, Earned Income Tax Credit, etc. Even if you _could_ fix all that, you're still not going to make ends meet. The player is effectively bankrupt.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- pavel_lishin 8y ago> The player is effectively bankrupt. Now imagine the player developing cancer, or needing to have major dental surgery!
- AcerbicZero 8y agoThe "simulator" does put you in an essentially unwinnable scenario. I too, would probably go broke if all my bills occurred in one 30 day period, while I was cut off from all my credit, given thousands in debt, and left with zero savings plus a kid. I think the creators reduce the impact of their own message by making it so far fetched. I can't relate to anyone who would put themselves in such a terrible financial position, so its just an unwinnable game.
- lifeformed 8y agoThat happens a lot more often than you may think. Sure, it's rare for all that to happen on any given month, but cyclic things will all converge eventually over a few years.
- __initbrian__ 8y agoI love that this simulator exists. super stressful
- Svoka 8y agoI want real poverty simulator. Or, better, Low Income living. With adequate probabilities (like going more than 10 days without crashing your car), knowing that you have a kid upfront, etc.