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Everybody’s known this regime is dirty for decades now. Worst case is they replace MBS because he’s so tainted and draw a line under this incident. They can g

by jarym 8y ago

Everybody’s known this regime is dirty for decades now. Worst case is they replace MBS because he’s so tainted and draw a line under this incident. They can go back to dropping American and European munitions on school kids in Yemen and the world will go back to turning a blind eye.

nl 8y ago
The Yemen disaster is mostly MBS's policy too. The Saudis have a lot of issues, but MBS seems to have made a lot of things worse.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Stop blaming Yemen on the Saudis, this is ridiculous. The Saudis could care less what goes on in Yemen and have shown through history they have zero imperial interest there. But if there is instability there, causing violence to spill across the border - or worse - Iranian backed antagonists are actually attacking Saudi - then Saudi is forced to take action. If there were no antagonist forces in Yemen threatening Saudi Arabia, then there would be zero Saudi Arabian military intervention. Yemenis are not violent due to some arbitrary violence of Saudis, it's the other way around.
  - nl 8y ago
    Do the words disproportionate response mean anything to you?
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      Yes, and it's not.
  - SuoDuanDao 8y ago
    Do you take a similar position on Saudi Arabia's attempts to strongarm Qatar and Canada?
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      Saudia Arabia is in no way strong-arming Canada - as for Qatar, that's a non violent dispute between two rich nations. Nothing to do with anything.
  - wolco 8y ago
    The truth is saundi arabia has been trying to control the region for awhile and started to lose control. Ask Quater if the Saudi's would try to influence or threaten a country for no reason other than having a brighter spotlight. When the Saudi's tried to threaten Canada recently by pulling out investment and students you could see this was going to be a challenging year for them. Aside from open up space for other more deserving students in Canada the Saudis did little damage and changed the way the world started looking at them. We are seeing them fall further and further each month.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      Totally missing the point. I say again: Saudi wants nothing to do with Yemen, and that they are personal and prickly with Qatar has nothing do do with anything. When Yemen was peaceful, Saudi coexisted in peace with it. As Iran tries to destabilize the region and antagonize Saudi Arabia by supplying weapons and support ... then it becomes a problem. There are literally missiles flying over Riyadh, supplied by Iran. Now who is trying to disrupt who? "When the Saudi's tried to threaten Canada recently by pulling out investment and students you could see this was going to be a challenging year for them." Again, it's stupid for Saudis - but this has nothing to do with anything. Their childish relationship with Qatar and response to Canada means little. Missiles over Riyadh supplied by Iran is essentially and act of war from Iran and they definitely should defend themselves.
      - nl 8y ago
        Oh please. Missiles didn't attack Riyadh until 2 years after the Saudi intervention, and after the cholera outbreak started and after the Saudi siege started killing civilians. No huge argument with the intervention itself, but the indiscriminate harm to the civilian population is indefensible.
onetimemanytime 8y ago
MBS is testing--or tested--the limits of his money. I think he overstepped the line, got away with Yemen, the shakedown at the Ritz so why not try this too? Scares the crap out of any dissident, you almost always need to go back to your embassy /consulate even if a US Citizen. So go ahead, yap online about MBS and see what can happen 5 years from now when you a certificate... Same pagebook as Putin with the high profile killings in UK.
anonymous5133 8y ago
It is quite a quagmire so to speak for Silicon Valley. For SA they have adopted policies that are basically designed to diversify the country away from oil so they are more willing than other countries to invest in very innovative "pie in the sky" type ideas. SA's population doesn't have the innovation skill that other countries have so SA just invests in the foreign talent. The new ideas are often developed in the Silicon Valley area. For SA, they are willing to invest in these wild ideas because for them...the money effectively just gushed out of the ground. That's why SA is often a big investor in very cutting-edge, high-risk investment funds like softbank's vision fund. For Silicon Valley, this is quite a major situation because entrepreneurs here effectively live or die based on if they can get funding. Even if the idea is amazing and has potential, the founder will just abandon the idea if investment doesn't materialize. SA is a godsend to any entrepreneur who has an idea that is viewed as high risk based on traditional VC investors. If SA pulls out of being so proactive with their investments then it will be a huge wake up call to many early stage startups for sure.
- compcoffee 8y ago
  >SA is a godsend to any entrepreneur who has an idea that is viewed as high risk based on traditional VC investors. If SA pulls out of being so proactive with their investments then it will be a huge wake up call to many early stage startups for sure. This implies that "traditional" VC couldn't get high risk stuff funded, but SA can. That has no basis in history or reality.
AndrewBissell 8y ago
Certainly the CEOs, celebrities, and media outlets that feted MBS earlier this year knew how awful KSA is, but I don't think the same could be said of the general public pre-Khashoggi. A key point Ben Hunt likes to make is that it's not what everybody knows that matters -- it's what everybody knows that everyone else knows that changes behavior. Still, it's very possible (especially with Trump & Kushner running the show) that this will just be a speedbump in business-as-usual for Saudi Arabia and their American business partners. We'll see -- in your worst case I don't think it will necessarily be a smooth process for MBS to be replaced.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Difference is the world, and particularly the USA, doesn't need Saudi oil to quite the same extent as previously. Perhaps now they don't need to be the West's principle ally in the region, or given a free pass on every human rights abuse.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  They’ll get a pass until oil doesn’t matter or the water runs out and it’ll all be irrelevant very shortly thereafter. Saudi Arabia’s long term future is no brighter than Yemen’s. If any of the Arab petro-states make it it’ll be the UAE and that’s borderline.
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    Why do you believe none of the nation states in this region will "make it?"
    - analognoise 8y ago
      I think the general perception is that the region doesn't have anything valuable to export once the oil is gone. They're trying to import scientists and engineers to kick off an economic transition, but those types of people will have zero interest in being in the region once the oil runs out, and the more educated amongst the local populace would leave too. It is already widely held (again, I don't have numbers for this) that the rich/powerful/educated have already secured real estate in other places should instability arise, meaning those people with means or skills would leave once the oil runs out, meaning they don't see a bright future in the region as well. With the recent news articles about the journalist being killed, all of the "modernization" thoughts people had are totally gone. There has been a lot of money thrown into architecting a modern image - all of which was completely undone in one single news cycle. I am no expert on the region though, just fielding some thoughts.
      - Nasrudith 8y ago
        They have tried some moves but they can't break from the fundamentalism making their efforts pretty moot despite all of the money they throw at it. Mystifyingly they were clearly involved with getting a Sex and the City movie set there. They could have reformed to be a productive post petrol economy but I suspect it was too late even before they decided acting like mob hitmen against journalists was a good idea. You can influence media with money but murdering journalists gives them self preservation reasons to refuse to deal with you at all. Apparently there is a pessimism / old joke there paraphrased as grandfather rode a camel, they drove a jeep, their children drove ferraris and their grandchildren will ride camels.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jjeaff 8y ago
Replace MBS? You say that like he is in am elected position. He's the heir to an absolute monarchy. Unless by replace, you mean a coup d'état of the Saudi Royal family?
- cavanasm 8y ago
  There's no formal structure/rule for which prince leads / who is "closest" to the throne. It comes down to politics. MBS has many many siblings and cousins, essentially any of whom could "replace" him.
- alehul 8y ago
  He's only heir apparent, and that's because his father (and people believe MBS was involved) removed Muhammad bin Nayef. There doesn't have to be a coup against the entire family to change the line of succession.
- true_religion 8y ago
  Saudi Arabia does not run by a primogeniture succession. Essentially all potential male heirs can become the overall leader. So all his brothers, his uncles, and some of his cousins are possible choices. It is politics that decides which one is heir aparent.
loceng 8y ago
I believe the Trump-Russia situation coming to light has made people hypersensitive (good when it's countering a desensitization) to this kind of blatant bad behaviour. The fact that it was a Washington Post journalist may have been crucial to the level of shock it has, at least in America; a situation finally that can resonate close enough to home for us to feel some kind of impact, and in the current climate of authoritarian/totalitarian governments trying to breakdown democracy.
- loceng 8y ago
  Can only wonder if the downvotes are trolls downvoting anything negative Trump-Russia related. At -2 so far.
da02 8y ago
Right. What I am also surprised is how dirty the regime is, yet no one seems to care: * https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how... * https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hillary-clinton-wikileaks-email-isis-saudi-arabia-qatar-us-allies-funding-barack-obama-knew-all-a7362071.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hillary-clinton-wikilea... * https://original.antiwar.com/dan_sanchez/2015/06/08/the-us-governments-not-so-secret-support-for-al-qaeda-and-isis/ https://original.antiwar.com/dan_sanchez/2015/06/08/the-us-g...
- kiliantics 8y ago
  They only care when it can be used as political ammunition, i.e. in this case against Trump

by jarym 8y ago

nl 8y ago

The Yemen disaster is mostly MBS's policy too. The Saudis have a lot of issues, but MBS seems to have made a lot of things worse.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
Stop blaming Yemen on the Saudis, this is ridiculous. The Saudis could care less what goes on in Yemen and have shown through history they have zero imperial interest there. But if there is instability there, causing violence to spill across the border - or worse - Iranian backed antagonists are actually attacking Saudi - then Saudi is forced to take action. If there were no antagonist forces in Yemen threatening Saudi Arabia, then there would be zero Saudi Arabian military intervention. Yemenis are not violent due to some arbitrary violence of Saudis, it's the other way around.
- nl 8y ago
  Do the words disproportionate response mean anything to you?
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Yes, and it's not.
- SuoDuanDao 8y ago
  Do you take a similar position on Saudi Arabia's attempts to strongarm Qatar and Canada?
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Saudia Arabia is in no way strong-arming Canada - as for Qatar, that's a non violent dispute between two rich nations. Nothing to do with anything.
- wolco 8y ago
  The truth is saundi arabia has been trying to control the region for awhile and started to lose control. Ask Quater if the Saudi's would try to influence or threaten a country for no reason other than having a brighter spotlight. When the Saudi's tried to threaten Canada recently by pulling out investment and students you could see this was going to be a challenging year for them. Aside from open up space for other more deserving students in Canada the Saudis did little damage and changed the way the world started looking at them. We are seeing them fall further and further each month.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Totally missing the point. I say again: Saudi wants nothing to do with Yemen, and that they are personal and prickly with Qatar has nothing do do with anything. When Yemen was peaceful, Saudi coexisted in peace with it. As Iran tries to destabilize the region and antagonize Saudi Arabia by supplying weapons and support ... then it becomes a problem. There are literally missiles flying over Riyadh, supplied by Iran. Now who is trying to disrupt who? "When the Saudi's tried to threaten Canada recently by pulling out investment and students you could see this was going to be a challenging year for them." Again, it's stupid for Saudis - but this has nothing to do with anything. Their childish relationship with Qatar and response to Canada means little. Missiles over Riyadh supplied by Iran is essentially and act of war from Iran and they definitely should defend themselves.
    - nl 8y ago
      Oh please. Missiles didn't attack Riyadh until 2 years after the Saudi intervention, and after the cholera outbreak started and after the Saudi siege started killing civilians. No huge argument with the intervention itself, but the indiscriminate harm to the civilian population is indefensible.

onetimemanytime 8y ago

MBS is testing--or tested--the limits of his money. I think he overstepped the line, got away with Yemen, the shakedown at the Ritz so why not try this too? Scares the crap out of any dissident, you almost always need to go back to your embassy /consulate even if a US Citizen. So go ahead, yap online about MBS and see what can happen 5 years from now when you a certificate... Same pagebook as Putin with the high profile killings in UK.

anonymous5133 8y ago

It is quite a quagmire so to speak for Silicon Valley. For SA they have adopted policies that are basically designed to diversify the country away from oil so they are more willing than other countries to invest in very innovative "pie in the sky" type ideas. SA's population doesn't have the innovation skill that other countries have so SA just invests in the foreign talent. The new ideas are often developed in the Silicon Valley area. For SA, they are willing to invest in these wild ideas because for them...the money effectively just gushed out of the ground. That's why SA is often a big investor in very cutting-edge, high-risk investment funds like softbank's vision fund. For Silicon Valley, this is quite a major situation because entrepreneurs here effectively live or die based on if they can get funding. Even if the idea is amazing and has potential, the founder will just abandon the idea if investment doesn't materialize. SA is a godsend to any entrepreneur who has an idea that is viewed as high risk based on traditional VC investors. If SA pulls out of being so proactive with their investments then it will be a huge wake up call to many early stage startups for sure.

compcoffee 8y ago
>SA is a godsend to any entrepreneur who has an idea that is viewed as high risk based on traditional VC investors. If SA pulls out of being so proactive with their investments then it will be a huge wake up call to many early stage startups for sure. This implies that "traditional" VC couldn't get high risk stuff funded, but SA can. That has no basis in history or reality.

AndrewBissell 8y ago

Certainly the CEOs, celebrities, and media outlets that feted MBS earlier this year knew how awful KSA is, but I don't think the same could be said of the general public pre-Khashoggi. A key point Ben Hunt likes to make is that it's not what everybody knows that matters -- it's what everybody knows that everyone else knows that changes behavior. Still, it's very possible (especially with Trump & Kushner running the show) that this will just be a speedbump in business-as-usual for Saudi Arabia and their American business partners. We'll see -- in your worst case I don't think it will necessarily be a smooth process for MBS to be replaced.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Difference is the world, and particularly the USA, doesn't need Saudi oil to quite the same extent as previously. Perhaps now they don't need to be the West's principle ally in the region, or given a free pass on every human rights abuse.

barry-cotter 8y ago
They’ll get a pass until oil doesn’t matter or the water runs out and it’ll all be irrelevant very shortly thereafter. Saudi Arabia’s long term future is no brighter than Yemen’s. If any of the Arab petro-states make it it’ll be the UAE and that’s borderline.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  Why do you believe none of the nation states in this region will "make it?"
  - analognoise 8y ago
    I think the general perception is that the region doesn't have anything valuable to export once the oil is gone. They're trying to import scientists and engineers to kick off an economic transition, but those types of people will have zero interest in being in the region once the oil runs out, and the more educated amongst the local populace would leave too. It is already widely held (again, I don't have numbers for this) that the rich/powerful/educated have already secured real estate in other places should instability arise, meaning those people with means or skills would leave once the oil runs out, meaning they don't see a bright future in the region as well. With the recent news articles about the journalist being killed, all of the "modernization" thoughts people had are totally gone. There has been a lot of money thrown into architecting a modern image - all of which was completely undone in one single news cycle. I am no expert on the region though, just fielding some thoughts.
    - Nasrudith 8y ago
      They have tried some moves but they can't break from the fundamentalism making their efforts pretty moot despite all of the money they throw at it. Mystifyingly they were clearly involved with getting a Sex and the City movie set there. They could have reformed to be a productive post petrol economy but I suspect it was too late even before they decided acting like mob hitmen against journalists was a good idea. You can influence media with money but murdering journalists gives them self preservation reasons to refuse to deal with you at all. Apparently there is a pessimism / old joke there paraphrased as grandfather rode a camel, they drove a jeep, their children drove ferraris and their grandchildren will ride camels.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jjeaff 8y ago

Replace MBS? You say that like he is in am elected position. He's the heir to an absolute monarchy. Unless by replace, you mean a coup d'état of the Saudi Royal family?

cavanasm 8y ago
There's no formal structure/rule for which prince leads / who is "closest" to the throne. It comes down to politics. MBS has many many siblings and cousins, essentially any of whom could "replace" him.
alehul 8y ago
He's only heir apparent, and that's because his father (and people believe MBS was involved) removed Muhammad bin Nayef. There doesn't have to be a coup against the entire family to change the line of succession.
true_religion 8y ago
Saudi Arabia does not run by a primogeniture succession. Essentially all potential male heirs can become the overall leader. So all his brothers, his uncles, and some of his cousins are possible choices. It is politics that decides which one is heir aparent.

loceng 8y ago

I believe the Trump-Russia situation coming to light has made people hypersensitive (good when it's countering a desensitization) to this kind of blatant bad behaviour. The fact that it was a Washington Post journalist may have been crucial to the level of shock it has, at least in America; a situation finally that can resonate close enough to home for us to feel some kind of impact, and in the current climate of authoritarian/totalitarian governments trying to breakdown democracy.

loceng 8y ago
Can only wonder if the downvotes are trolls downvoting anything negative Trump-Russia related. At -2 so far.

da02 8y ago

Right. What I am also surprised is how dirty the regime is, yet no one seems to care: * https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how... * https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hillary-clinton-wikileaks-email-isis-saudi-arabia-qatar-us-allies-funding-barack-obama-knew-all-a7362071.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hillary-clinton-wikilea... * https://original.antiwar.com/dan_sanchez/2015/06/08/the-us-governments-not-so-secret-support-for-al-qaeda-and-isis/ https://original.antiwar.com/dan_sanchez/2015/06/08/the-us-g...

kiliantics 8y ago
They only care when it can be used as political ammunition, i.e. in this case against Trump