16 ms·

How the Finnish survive without small talk

191 points by andrevoget 8y ago

Tor3 8y ago
"Finns think if there’s no important topic to discuss, there’s no conversation at all." Nothing wrong with that. There's certainly too much of the opposite in the world.
- smsm42 8y ago
  I like how Finns do it. I personally am pretty fine with being silent for a while, even in a company of others. I always have things to think about. But I feel in many places the social expectation is that you have to talk about... something. No matter what, but silence is awkward. That is exhausting sometimes.
throwaway487548 8y ago
Oh, come on. Most parts of Asia have no notion of a small talk, moreover, it is considered impolite and sometimes even silly. Only almost formal, exceedingly polite and necessary conversations are part of the social norm, and you see, it is OK for a few billions or so.
- jpatokal 8y ago
  > Only almost formal, exceedingly polite and necessary conversations are part of the social norm This does not describe Finland at all. If you go to a convenience store in Japan and buy a pack of gum, the clerk will go through an elaborate script of welcoming you to the store, reciting how much your purchase costs, how much cash they receive from you, how much change they give you in return, and thanking you for your custom. In Finland, more likely than not you can complete exactly the same transaction without either party saying a word (except maybe the clerk telling you the total).
  - varjag 8y ago
    In Norway cashiers have to recite much of that (and ask if you want a receipt) due to regulations. So I wonder how much of 'custom' is that really in Japan too.
    - vidarh 8y ago
      My French-teacher in Norway told me this story as a way of relating how terse Norwegians tended to be relative to the French. She insisted it was about someone she knew, but I have no idea if it's true: A Norwegian husband took his French wife to live in Norway. She was at home while he went to work, and after a few months he invited another couple home to dinner. Most of the conversation happened in French or English as she had not yet picked up much Norwegian, but when leaving, she wanted to try. After they left, the husband asked her "why did you say 'pose' when they were leaving?" She asked if she'd gotten it wrong - it was what the cashiers always said as she was leaving the shop, so she'd assumed it was "goodbye". (for the non-Norwegians: 'pose' means bag, as in a shopping bag; they were asking if she wanted one) The idea that a one word utterance as she was leaving could be an insignificant question rather than wishing her good bye had not crossed her mind.
      - Symbiote 8y ago
        It was days rather than months, but I had similar confusion in Denmark over cashiers asking if I'd like the receipt as I was leaving. Of course, with the additional difficulty of Danish pronunciation, I wasn't able to search for the words, and didn't try and repeat them. (pose → purse, if you like to learn with cognates.)
      - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
        Thank you for this - I got quite a giggle. I'm living in Norway and am from the states, and I sometimes do weird stuff like that. Lots of laughs from stuff like that, and I'm quite happy the spouse is Norwegian to laugh and explain that stuff.
  - lasagnaphil 8y ago
    I think the Japanese clerk’s elaborate script is just an educated formality rather than a sincere conversation...
- bluetomcat 8y ago
  A similar kind of formality used to be a thing in Western culture, at least up until the 1980s. Watch any kind of TV show from back then and notice the formality in the clothing of presenters, the substantially more discernible pronunciation, the vocabulary. The cultural shift towards informality is a recent trend in the West.
  - eesmith 8y ago
    One should be careful basing observations on what is shown on TV. As an extreme example, it would suggest that most couples did not sleep on the same bed during the 1950s. There was also a cultural fashion in the US to use a "Mid-Atlantic accent". Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent : > The Mid-Atlantic accent, or Transatlantic accent,[1][2][3] is a consciously acquired accent of English, intended to blend together the "standard" speech of both American English and British Received Pronunciation. Spoken mostly in the early 20th century by Americans, it is not a vernacular American accent native to any location, but rather, according to voice and drama professor Dudley Knight, an affected set of speech patterns whose "chief quality was that no Americans actually spoke it unless educated to do so".[4] The accent is, therefore, best associated with the American upper class, theater, and film industry of the 1930s and 1940s,[5] largely taught in private independent preparatory schools especially in the American Northeast and in acting schools.[6] The accent's overall use sharply declined following the Second World War. On the UK side of the Atlantic, the Received Pronunciation was considered the appropriate form of English in BBC broadcasts, leading to "BBC English", which again reflected upper class use. As I recall, it wasn't until the 1980s when BBC announcers were more free to use regional dialects. So when you view history through TV, remember that you are also seeing it through a upper-class lens.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      That's true although professional dress is definitely more casual in the US (for the most part) than it was 20-30 years ago. When I started with a tech company in the mid-80s, suits were pretty much the norm for marketing and sales and even many in engineering. It would have been strange for the most part to, say, give a presentation at a conference without being dressed that way. These days, in tech certainly but across many industries, "dressing up" is mostly an outlier.
- swampthing 8y ago
  I don't know what countries you were referring to, but that's definitely not the case in China (home to a few billions).
welcomebrand 8y ago
I think I might be Finnish
- gushie 8y ago
  Yup, me too. I'm a middle aged Brit and I still haven't mastered small talk
stabbles 8y ago
Finns do love to talk about the weather.
- holstvoogd 8y ago
  We do that for small talk in Holland mostly. run into your neighbour? 'ooh, the weather!' 'quite!' and move on :) Actually, it is mostly complaining about it. too hot, too wet, too dry... And all while it is mostly excruciatingly mild compared to places with real weather :P
- stevekemp 8y ago
  Not as much as the British!
  - umichguy 8y ago
    Amen. As a U.S. to UK transplant, I concur with this statement.
illuminati1911 8y ago
(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way, but learned still. :D
- tomp 8y ago
  Looks like I need to move to Finland :D
  - majewsky 8y ago
    Same. This article felt like a very narrowly targeted ad for me. :)
  - stevekemp 8y ago
    I moved to Finland from the UK, and it is strikingly different. That said strangers talk to you in the sauna all the time, and that seems to be both acceptable and encouraged.
    - bemmu 8y ago
      Finn here. Sauna changes the way people talk, taking them out from the day-to-day on to deeper topics. There isn't anything else to do besides staring at the steaming rocks. The atmosphere suits it well; dimly lit and relaxing. Laying on your back on grass and staring at the stars would inspire similar conversations.
- vidarh 8y ago
  I'm Norwegian, and had the same experience moving to the UK. For several years I kept grumbling about how rude people were to ask and then just keep walking while I stopped to answer.
  - deleted 8y ago
buboard 8y ago
Is it all part of the whole nordic mindset? Because their love of welfare state seems to stem from this desire to avoid confronting other people's problems and instead relegating those functions to the state. The european south is the reverse of this, thats why southern socialism usually ends up in corruption. Then again, lack of communication, lack of smiles, leads to depression hence their sky high suicide rates. The british and americans seem to me to strike a better balance in being more expressive and taking life a little less seriously. It certainly makes them seem more friendly on first impression. Why do you think my comment is flagged?
- mtgx 8y ago
  Or maybe just a climate thing? I find I want to talk much less when my face is freezing. In the long term I imagine this could have easily turned into a habit/cultural thing. You also hear about Latin American people being much "warmer" and friendly, etc.
  - buboard 8y ago
    i find the british are pretty chatty, even when its freezing. Yes, warm weather -> people being outdoors -> eventually chat more (and don't do much work)
    - stevekemp 8y ago
      As somebody from the UK who moved to Finland, there's a big difference in the degrees of "Freezing". Sure in the UK somebody might say they're freezing at -5, but in Finland I've been as cold as -25, even in the South. (People in Finland are better dressed for the weather, and houses are all pretty new, so they're generally well-insulated. But there's probably some truth in the idea that talking to strangers becomes less appealing when you're wrapped in scarves, and winter-gear.)
      - fi358 8y ago
        As a Finn, I would say that people at least in Finland tend to be more closed during winter than during summer. I think I saw some study where they seemed to notice this kind of pattern as well, but I think the study was done outside Finland.
unwind 8y ago
Swedish has the same saying, but it's the other way around ("tala är silver men tiga är guld", literally "talking is silver but silence is gold"). It makes more sense like that to me, but perhaps the article just got it wrong
- dudul 8y ago
  Not just the Swedes, the same saying exists in France.
  - holstvoogd 8y ago
    and Holland too
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    And Dutch: Spreken is zilver, zwijgen is goud. German: Reden ist Silber, Schweigen ist Gold. And probably many other languages besides. Proverbs are usually not limited to a single language though they may change subtly in translation.
    - seba_dos1 8y ago
      Polish: Mowa jest srebrem, a milczenie złotem.
  - jaclaz 8y ago
    Italian: Il silenzio è d'oro, la parola d'argento.
- blake_himself 8y ago
  In English there's 'silence is golden', but, lacks the 'silver' part.
  - IshKebab 8y ago
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/speech_is_silver,_silence_is_golden https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/speech_is_silver,_silence_is_...
Insanity 8y ago
I first completely read this as "smalltalk" and was quite confused. I'm quite bad at small talk but I try to 'force' it as it is seen as something common where I live. My wife usually does tell me that I'm bad at it if she happens to be with me. I'm not sure why, there's just a lot of awkward pauses.
Mediterraneo10 8y ago
It is strange that this article sees Finland as an odd man out in terms of customer-service interactions, and it suggests the USA or the UK is the norm. I have lived in both southern Europe (where people are claimed to be more extrovert) and in Finland, and generally interacting with a "barista" or cashier in both places is exactly the same, consisting of only the words "Hello" and "Thanks". In the USA one might get small talk coming from employees who don’t know you, but that tends to be feigned and is therefore rather creepy.
- bluetomcat 8y ago
  Customer-service interactions as they are in the US are not popular and are considered obtrusive even in more extrovert cultures such as southern and eastern Europe. Small talk there generally takes place between colleagues and friends.
  - redblacktree 8y ago
    As a customer, I'm not exactly interested in small talk, and I know that the service person isn't either, but I walk a fine line. Because I care about people as people, I want get the message across, "I see you. I know you're a real person and not a robot. Thank you for being here to help me get my lunch today." I think non-verbal communication goes a long way with this. (for the opposite effect, I see people order without so much as looking at the service person) In any case, it's important to me that people aren't treated as robots or less-than because of the job they're doing.
    - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
      > I want get the message across, "I see you. I know you're a real person and not a robot. Thank goodness for self-service checkouts these days where we don’t have to be bothered to get that message across, though.
      - redblacktree 8y ago
        Yeah, agreed. We've got to figure out the humanitarian side with basic income or something else, but those kinds of jobs are a waste of life. Let them do literally anything else.
barking 8y ago
I wonder how the Estonians compare?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
fi358 8y ago
Sometimes in Finland you see people from countries like USA talking with each other endlessly and often quite loudly. Many of us Finns find it annoying as it is against local customs (it resembles situation where somebody comes too close to my personal space). This constant chit-chat prevents me concentrating on my own thoughts. I wouldn't mind if they would talk about some important things or keep their chit-chat short, but I don't want to be exposed to this kind of noise about trivial things for hours.
- bluetomcat 8y ago
  The constant chit-chat is at the surface of this phenomenon, it's the general hyperactivity of Americans that strikes me as an eastern European. Always moving around restlessly while holding a drink, overacting and commenting after any kind of trivial situation around them, something that most people would not care about at all.
  - unstuckdev 8y ago
    I call those people annoying. I was born and raised and have lived my entire life in the US. I'm quiet, still, and prefer the same in the people around me. You can't assess over 300 million people by the few who can afford to travel.
    - robocat 8y ago
      One issue is that we generally notice the loud obnoxious stereotype, and there are enough Americans that fit that mould. And perhaps you are discounting that many people make their own judgement call based on the interactions they have had with Americans. I am not sure it has much to do with tourists per se. On the gripping hand, I am in Palma de Mallorca at the moment, which many Europeans travel to for the beach and party life: there are some definite stereotypes for the Poms and the Germans! Every visitor faces bigotry, some fair, some unfair. American's can get plenty of positive reaction too. At least most people have some idea about your country and customs from watching movies: try coming from a third world nation...
moltar 8y ago
Russian people are similar in that regard. We also don’t ask how are you. It’s mostly transactional with strangers.
- fi358 8y ago
  In Finland we sometimes ask how are you, especially if we know the person. However, it is usually meant to be a real question and not just empty phrase where "fine" is regarded as the only correct answer.
  - seba_dos1 8y ago
    I'm so glad that recently on an interview with a foreign company, when I got asked "how are you?" at the beginning, it felt strange enough to remind me "just say 'fine' and be done with it" :D
  - moltar 8y ago
    Yes, exactly the same for Russians. We do ask too, but genuinely and usually only our close friends and family.
seba_dos1 8y ago
I'd be definitely more interested in an article on "How US/UK survive with small talk".
- jsilvers 8y ago
  It's funny because often the stories about small talk in the US center on how vapid it is. People ask, "how are you," and most people are conditioned to say, "good, thanks" (or some variant) and leave it at that. Then you're trained to say, "and how are you?" and often it's the same reply. Then it's onto the weather, news, sports, or other topics. Despite that it's formulaic, as an American, it's comforting and within the norm.
andrewl 8y ago
A New Yorker article on American small talk is discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12031975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12031975
gorbachev 8y ago
Enough of this talking!
redhale 8y ago
> The Finnish don’t believe in talking bullshit How quaint!
anotherfinn 8y ago
As a Finn, I've always found this story quite amusing. An American comes to visit a Finnish university and tells about his first meetings there: https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=donal_carbaugh https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...
m23khan 8y ago
If Finns were of brown race and were to go to Karachi, Pakistan, they would get depressed as over there, people won't even acknowledge their presence.
PeterStuer 8y ago
I love Finland. I love Oulu. But, come on, there isn't just the 1 type of Finn. And even the "silent' type (which I prefer) is very warm and outgoing when given space, sincerity and calm. In fact, I found getting into a decent conversation and a good night out as a stranger in Finland is way easier than in may other places.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
thekingofh 8y ago
Silence is great, but there's something more to small talk than just filling silence. Small talk primes the pump for some good conversation. I can't tell you how many times I've come across great conversations and tidbits of information that I'd never have if I didn't chat up with some kind of nonsense to start the conversation. Or alternatively if someone else didn't. The initial part of the conversation is useless, we all know that, but it's a handshake of sorts to see if there's a possibility of a good exchange of something more. If the other person doesn't want to talk, then a quick canned response is the equivalent of, "Hi I acknowledge you, but I don't want to talk right now.". There's a protocol. If the person wants to talk they'll give the canned response, with an added tidbit that can be grabbed onto for further conversation. People are usually just going through their day on autopilot, waiting for a opportunity to connect with someone.
- hrktb 8y ago
  I feel this is in the same vein as asking every girl on the street if she wants to have a drink. That definitely can be one way to meet one’s life partner. But it’s so grating from the other side, even if the request is very polite and non pushy. Some people live for the human contact, others don’t want any. Honestly it’s a PITA when the social norm puts an obligation to respond, even briefly, to not seem rude. If it’s a protocol, there should be an option to just drop the incomming packets and go on with one’s life.
  - thekingofh 8y ago
    This is true if you are running into people on such a basis that it becomes cumbersome. It may be a cultural/geographical thing, where in the US there's ton's of space and in some areas, especially rural ones where you see more small talk, it's possible that you don't see anyone for days at a time, which means you run into your neighbor and the small talk is a way to prime up a conversation. The more dense the population the more cumbersome this type of behavior becomes. The larger the countryside, the more likely the people are going to be using small talk to break the ice.
  - QuantumGood 8y ago
    A lot of life is dealing with things that are a PITA, and there are advantages in developing skill dealing with them. Develop a strategy, practice. Lots of books and articles about this.
draw_down 8y ago
I think often people who have such big problems with small talk are not appreciating what it actually is and what it's for. I'm sorry but I actively do not want to solve life's big mysteries with you while we wait in the bank line. There are lots of times in life where what is being communicated and what is being said are different, I don't see why that distinction is more of a problem in the case of small talk than anywhere else.
SilasX 8y ago
Random thought: I can't find it, so how do they translate the intro to Return of the Jedi? Moff Jerjerrod: Lord Vader. This is an unexpected pleasure. We are honored by your presence. Darth Vader: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I am here to put you back on schedule. Is Jerjerrod's line something they wouldn't say? Would it be confusing that someone would need to tell someone to skip the pleasantries?
- farrisbris 8y ago
  Can't remember either, but your recollection is close to what mine is. But given that Moff knows who/what Darth Vader is it is not supprising that he takes a subservient stance when talking to him. Kind of the same way i'm very careful around american cops. I would never address a norwegian cop by sir, but i don't even think twice before using sir/mam when talking to a us cop. But in these cases its fear. It has nothing to do with pleasentries. It's the gun in the holster or the knowledge that he can forcechoke you if he wants to. ( at least thats my interpretation of that encounter in rotj ). So no. I don't think they would say that in any normal encounter. I know i wouldn't other than in jest.
  - Bartweiss 8y ago
    This makes sense - I'd assume "I know my place, don't hurt me" is a sentiment that arises in basically any culture as long as somebody involved has lots of power and no accountability.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  I'm curious whether this would actually be odd for Finns? Jerjerrod's line is phatic, but I think it's less small talk than deference or avoidance. The message is something like "I'm surprised and concerned someone with your status is involved in my work, please don't hurt me", which seems fairly universal.
  - jnurmine 8y ago
    In the film it's translated like they say in English, if I recall it right. But if it were from real life from after 1950-1960s (when people used the third person as a polite form, still happens but rare) the dialogue would be like this: Darth Vader enters. Moff stops what he is doing, turns toward Vader and looks at him. Nothing is said, it is obvious to both that this is a surprise for Moff. There is a pause. Moff is waiting for Vader to indicate the purpose of this visit. It goes without saying that there is some purpose or Vader would not be here as he does not make courtesy calls; if he did, he would probably have brought a bouquet of flowers or a bottle of wine or such. If Vader would not say anything for a longer time, Moff would ask. But here Vader says: "I am here to put you back on schedule". Moff nods. Or at most says "Understood/OK". If Moff does not agree with the assessment that he is late, then he could start negotiating the issue, but as I recall from the film, he was aware of being late, so what is the point of arguing a fact. In an older time, I think Moff would have said "Lord Vader" to acknowledge him. Otherwise the dialogue would have gone more or less as above. That's my take of it, at least.
raffael-vogler 8y ago
> “Laura,” she told me matter-of-factly when I asked why we had bonded so quickly, “The Finnish don’t believe in talking bullshit.” I believe this is characterizing the sentiment of the article much better than what the title conveys. In my experience there are different types of small talk. The infamous kind found in the US is not the only definition of small talk. In many cultures small talk simply means talking without getting too personal - in the US this seems to be accomplished by exchanging what the Finnish girl refers to as "bullshit". > With two million saunas in the country, which are enjoyed fully nude (generally gender-segregated, although that rule tends to be thrown out in the company of friends), the Finnish seem to have no problem with getting up close and personal. But when clothes are on, the bets are off. Also an exaggeration in my experience. You can very well talk to strangers in Finland. Just that talking too shallow stuff is maybe not that popular. > Thanks to television and films (which are mostly broadcast in English) she was already acquainted with non-Finnish communication styles. That is such a dumb and sad thing to say. I really love the downtoearth friendliness of Finnish people. There is really no need to educate them - and certainly not by means of television. > When asked for an example of how she wishes Finnish society were more open, Now we go from talking less to a claim that Finnish society should be more open. It couldn't be further from the truth. If you have been to Helsinki you will have noticed that the society is super open and embracing refugees as well as people with handicaps. Almost everything is accessible to blind people or those using a wheelchair. > There are more hypotheses than answers for why Finnish culture has a veil of silence permanently stitched in place. And that is a good thing. Silence and the ability to maintain silence when there is no need for attention seeking behavior is such an important thing. It's awesome. > “When I was [back] in Finland, I was almost offended when I went to get a cup of coffee from a coffee shop and they didn’t say anything,” he recalled. “It was just ‘what do you want?’. How can you say that? Are you not going to ask anything before that? Oh, yeah. This is my home country. This is just the way things are. That is just half of the truth. They just won't pretend to be your super-nice new friend like it can be observed in Starbucks for example. But they will be actually very friendly. In no country I have been treated consistently exceptionally friendly by customer serive in shops or bars than in Finland / Helskinki. It's absolutely stunning how authentically friendly Finnish people are. --- I would rather tend to label typical Finnish communication as "healthy" - and there is a simple reason for it being like that. Finnish society itself is super healthy - just take a day-trip to Helsinki and you will feel it immediatly that Finland is doing something very right with regards to equality in the society and presence of culture.
flurdy 8y ago
Norwegian living in the UK. I remember my dad when he moved over here just found the whole initial greetings and small talk with his UK colleagues really funny. And even funnier to watch his mostly Swedish colleagues struggle with the same tennis ball banter at the start of every conversation. Instead of just getting to the point straight away. I was young enough to adapt quickly, but still I struggle with insincere greetings such as in some shops here now have US style greeters at the door. Find it hard to respond to their "Hi/Welcome/How are you" as I know they do not want a conversation, so why interfere with my personal space...
- eternalban 8y ago
  HELO flurdy WTF personal space! :) Small talk is a protocol. There is information exchange. Possibly the Finns are trying to out do the machine but even machines agree small talk is necessary :)
  - kirkules 8y ago
    Are you saying TELNET is necessary because it is a protocol?
- jiveturkey 8y ago
  > US style greeters at the door don't worry, everyone hates that. i mentally flip them the bird.
- QuantumGood 8y ago
  In many situations, people benefit from working together. Skill at connecting with people accrues benefits to the persons with that skill. Of course, more simply, management wants: • Visitors with unique needs or problems checked for; • Visitors who prefer interaction made more likely to be repeat customers; • Determination of employee skill level at interaction; • A touch point for visitor questions or concerns; • Business branded as being interested in their customers; • Control over setting of social morays; • etc. etc.
- jaclaz 8y ago
  Even if it is by now rather dated, the classic about England [0] "strange" things for a foreigner remains "How to be an Alien" by George Mikes, JFYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_be_an_Alien https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_be_an_Alien [0] In England everything is different. You must understand that when people say ‘England’, they sometimes mean ‘Great Britain’ (England, Scotland and Wales), sometimes ‘the United Kingdom’ (England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland), sometimes the ‘British Isles’ (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland) – but never just England.
koevet 8y ago
I'm married to a Finn woman and I have lived in Helsinki for about 3 years. The lack of small talk is the norm in Finland, and, as a south-european, it takes a while to get used to. The article doesn't mention that there is a noticeable difference between boys and girls though. My experience is that girls are much more willing to engage in small talk in social situations. Men, including colleagues, can be really difficult to crack. Some men really open up only when alcol is involved - another aspect of Finnish society that the article overlooked.
- Balgair 8y ago
  The old 'peach vs. coconut' cultural modes: https://x-culture.org/peach-vs-coconut-cultures/ https://x-culture.org/peach-vs-coconut-cultures/
umichguy 8y ago
How do they survive? SISU - that's all you need to know about Finland. Look it up. #sisu
johan_larson 8y ago
This is too minor a matter for Finns to bother discussing. Those doing the talking must be FSB infiltrators.
lionhearted 8y ago
I was in Helsinki two years ago and loved every minute of it. I said to an American friend at the time, "I don't know why, but this is a great city to think in." This article helps explain it — there's less idle conversation, yes, but when conversing, it's actually much easier and straightforward to talk about deep and interesting things. And if you want to be quiet and just think, people are cool with that too. It's really a lovely place. Very clean and beautiful, too. Very much worth visiting.
gfs78 8y ago
Small talk it's not just chit chat, it's also a social regulator, at least here in Argentina. It is used a cue of respect and interest but also of disregard and rejection. How do the Finns cue interest in others, how do they cue rejection?
denebo 8y ago
I visted Finland two summers ago. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary in terms of friendliness or small-talk. I mostly visited bigger cities though.
haihaibye 8y ago
No mention of genetics. The Finns are different from the rest of Europe. When gnomAD, the current largest population sequencing project clustered Euro genomes together the biggest divide was between Finns and non Finns.
grawprog 8y ago
I have trouble making small talk but I enjoy listening to it. I genuinely enjoy listening to what's going on in people's lives, even if it's not very exciting. I try to remember things people say and ask about it next time. I find it better than just generic questions. People seem to enjoy talking about themselves and i've found it goes a long way just caring and remembering a little bit the little things going on in people's lives. Conversely I find when I do mention little things in small talk with people they actually tend to remember more than I think they will. Not everyone, but there's definitely people that do and it does feel nice.
8bitsrule 8y ago
"But if you’re lucky, sometimes a stranger will instantly become a friend and tell you everything." Damn! doesn't sound like luck to me ... and I'm far from Finnish. (At least I think so, even though I did once dive from sauna into ice-covered water.)
craftoman 8y ago
I love Scandinavian countries for that specific reason. People don't care about you but they will help you if you really need anything and relationships are very strong and take years to come. Here in Greece for example relationships are fake and fade from day one. You met a guy on Monday and on Friday you get an invitation to his house BUT the next Monday they pretend they haven't met you. Too much socialization leads to sociopathic disorders.
jaclaz 8y ago
A bit off topic, but one of the movies I always found really interesting (without having any idea how much "realistic" it might or might not be) has been "The man wihout a past": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Without_a_Past https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Without_a_Past The verbal exchanges appear so "alien" that they are highly facscinating to me.

191 points by andrevoget 8y ago

Tor3 8y ago

"Finns think if there’s no important topic to discuss, there’s no conversation at all." Nothing wrong with that. There's certainly too much of the opposite in the world.

smsm42 8y ago
I like how Finns do it. I personally am pretty fine with being silent for a while, even in a company of others. I always have things to think about. But I feel in many places the social expectation is that you have to talk about... something. No matter what, but silence is awkward. That is exhausting sometimes.

throwaway487548 8y ago

Oh, come on. Most parts of Asia have no notion of a small talk, moreover, it is considered impolite and sometimes even silly. Only almost formal, exceedingly polite and necessary conversations are part of the social norm, and you see, it is OK for a few billions or so.

jpatokal 8y ago
> Only almost formal, exceedingly polite and necessary conversations are part of the social norm This does not describe Finland at all. If you go to a convenience store in Japan and buy a pack of gum, the clerk will go through an elaborate script of welcoming you to the store, reciting how much your purchase costs, how much cash they receive from you, how much change they give you in return, and thanking you for your custom. In Finland, more likely than not you can complete exactly the same transaction without either party saying a word (except maybe the clerk telling you the total).
- varjag 8y ago
  In Norway cashiers have to recite much of that (and ask if you want a receipt) due to regulations. So I wonder how much of 'custom' is that really in Japan too.
  - vidarh 8y ago
    My French-teacher in Norway told me this story as a way of relating how terse Norwegians tended to be relative to the French. She insisted it was about someone she knew, but I have no idea if it's true: A Norwegian husband took his French wife to live in Norway. She was at home while he went to work, and after a few months he invited another couple home to dinner. Most of the conversation happened in French or English as she had not yet picked up much Norwegian, but when leaving, she wanted to try. After they left, the husband asked her "why did you say 'pose' when they were leaving?" She asked if she'd gotten it wrong - it was what the cashiers always said as she was leaving the shop, so she'd assumed it was "goodbye". (for the non-Norwegians: 'pose' means bag, as in a shopping bag; they were asking if she wanted one) The idea that a one word utterance as she was leaving could be an insignificant question rather than wishing her good bye had not crossed her mind.
    - Symbiote 8y ago
      It was days rather than months, but I had similar confusion in Denmark over cashiers asking if I'd like the receipt as I was leaving. Of course, with the additional difficulty of Danish pronunciation, I wasn't able to search for the words, and didn't try and repeat them. (pose → purse, if you like to learn with cognates.)
    - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
      Thank you for this - I got quite a giggle. I'm living in Norway and am from the states, and I sometimes do weird stuff like that. Lots of laughs from stuff like that, and I'm quite happy the spouse is Norwegian to laugh and explain that stuff.
- lasagnaphil 8y ago
  I think the Japanese clerk’s elaborate script is just an educated formality rather than a sincere conversation...
bluetomcat 8y ago
A similar kind of formality used to be a thing in Western culture, at least up until the 1980s. Watch any kind of TV show from back then and notice the formality in the clothing of presenters, the substantially more discernible pronunciation, the vocabulary. The cultural shift towards informality is a recent trend in the West.
- eesmith 8y ago
  One should be careful basing observations on what is shown on TV. As an extreme example, it would suggest that most couples did not sleep on the same bed during the 1950s. There was also a cultural fashion in the US to use a "Mid-Atlantic accent". Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent : > The Mid-Atlantic accent, or Transatlantic accent,[1][2][3] is a consciously acquired accent of English, intended to blend together the "standard" speech of both American English and British Received Pronunciation. Spoken mostly in the early 20th century by Americans, it is not a vernacular American accent native to any location, but rather, according to voice and drama professor Dudley Knight, an affected set of speech patterns whose "chief quality was that no Americans actually spoke it unless educated to do so".[4] The accent is, therefore, best associated with the American upper class, theater, and film industry of the 1930s and 1940s,[5] largely taught in private independent preparatory schools especially in the American Northeast and in acting schools.[6] The accent's overall use sharply declined following the Second World War. On the UK side of the Atlantic, the Received Pronunciation was considered the appropriate form of English in BBC broadcasts, leading to "BBC English", which again reflected upper class use. As I recall, it wasn't until the 1980s when BBC announcers were more free to use regional dialects. So when you view history through TV, remember that you are also seeing it through a upper-class lens.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    That's true although professional dress is definitely more casual in the US (for the most part) than it was 20-30 years ago. When I started with a tech company in the mid-80s, suits were pretty much the norm for marketing and sales and even many in engineering. It would have been strange for the most part to, say, give a presentation at a conference without being dressed that way. These days, in tech certainly but across many industries, "dressing up" is mostly an outlier.
swampthing 8y ago
I don't know what countries you were referring to, but that's definitely not the case in China (home to a few billions).

welcomebrand 8y ago

I think I might be Finnish

gushie 8y ago
Yup, me too. I'm a middle aged Brit and I still haven't mastered small talk

stabbles 8y ago

Finns do love to talk about the weather.

holstvoogd 8y ago
We do that for small talk in Holland mostly. run into your neighbour? 'ooh, the weather!' 'quite!' and move on :) Actually, it is mostly complaining about it. too hot, too wet, too dry... And all while it is mostly excruciatingly mild compared to places with real weather :P
stevekemp 8y ago
Not as much as the British!
- umichguy 8y ago
  Amen. As a U.S. to UK transplant, I concur with this statement.

illuminati1911 8y ago

(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way, but learned still. :D

tomp 8y ago
Looks like I need to move to Finland :D
- majewsky 8y ago
  Same. This article felt like a very narrowly targeted ad for me. :)
- stevekemp 8y ago
  I moved to Finland from the UK, and it is strikingly different. That said strangers talk to you in the sauna all the time, and that seems to be both acceptable and encouraged.
  - bemmu 8y ago
    Finn here. Sauna changes the way people talk, taking them out from the day-to-day on to deeper topics. There isn't anything else to do besides staring at the steaming rocks. The atmosphere suits it well; dimly lit and relaxing. Laying on your back on grass and staring at the stars would inspire similar conversations.
vidarh 8y ago
I'm Norwegian, and had the same experience moving to the UK. For several years I kept grumbling about how rude people were to ask and then just keep walking while I stopped to answer.
- deleted 8y ago

buboard 8y ago

Is it all part of the whole nordic mindset? Because their love of welfare state seems to stem from this desire to avoid confronting other people's problems and instead relegating those functions to the state. The european south is the reverse of this, thats why southern socialism usually ends up in corruption. Then again, lack of communication, lack of smiles, leads to depression hence their sky high suicide rates. The british and americans seem to me to strike a better balance in being more expressive and taking life a little less seriously. It certainly makes them seem more friendly on first impression. Why do you think my comment is flagged?

mtgx 8y ago
Or maybe just a climate thing? I find I want to talk much less when my face is freezing. In the long term I imagine this could have easily turned into a habit/cultural thing. You also hear about Latin American people being much "warmer" and friendly, etc.
- buboard 8y ago
  i find the british are pretty chatty, even when its freezing. Yes, warm weather -> people being outdoors -> eventually chat more (and don't do much work)
  - stevekemp 8y ago
    As somebody from the UK who moved to Finland, there's a big difference in the degrees of "Freezing". Sure in the UK somebody might say they're freezing at -5, but in Finland I've been as cold as -25, even in the South. (People in Finland are better dressed for the weather, and houses are all pretty new, so they're generally well-insulated. But there's probably some truth in the idea that talking to strangers becomes less appealing when you're wrapped in scarves, and winter-gear.)
    - fi358 8y ago
      As a Finn, I would say that people at least in Finland tend to be more closed during winter than during summer. I think I saw some study where they seemed to notice this kind of pattern as well, but I think the study was done outside Finland.

unwind 8y ago

Swedish has the same saying, but it's the other way around ("tala är silver men tiga är guld", literally "talking is silver but silence is gold"). It makes more sense like that to me, but perhaps the article just got it wrong

dudul 8y ago
Not just the Swedes, the same saying exists in France.
- holstvoogd 8y ago
  and Holland too
- jacquesm 8y ago
  And Dutch: Spreken is zilver, zwijgen is goud. German: Reden ist Silber, Schweigen ist Gold. And probably many other languages besides. Proverbs are usually not limited to a single language though they may change subtly in translation.
  - seba_dos1 8y ago
    Polish: Mowa jest srebrem, a milczenie złotem.
- jaclaz 8y ago
  Italian: Il silenzio è d'oro, la parola d'argento.
blake_himself 8y ago
In English there's 'silence is golden', but, lacks the 'silver' part.
- IshKebab 8y ago
  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/speech_is_silver,_silence_is_golden https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/speech_is_silver,_silence_is_...

Insanity 8y ago

I first completely read this as "smalltalk" and was quite confused. I'm quite bad at small talk but I try to 'force' it as it is seen as something common where I live. My wife usually does tell me that I'm bad at it if she happens to be with me. I'm not sure why, there's just a lot of awkward pauses.

Mediterraneo10 8y ago

It is strange that this article sees Finland as an odd man out in terms of customer-service interactions, and it suggests the USA or the UK is the norm. I have lived in both southern Europe (where people are claimed to be more extrovert) and in Finland, and generally interacting with a "barista" or cashier in both places is exactly the same, consisting of only the words "Hello" and "Thanks". In the USA one might get small talk coming from employees who don’t know you, but that tends to be feigned and is therefore rather creepy.

bluetomcat 8y ago
Customer-service interactions as they are in the US are not popular and are considered obtrusive even in more extrovert cultures such as southern and eastern Europe. Small talk there generally takes place between colleagues and friends.
- redblacktree 8y ago
  As a customer, I'm not exactly interested in small talk, and I know that the service person isn't either, but I walk a fine line. Because I care about people as people, I want get the message across, "I see you. I know you're a real person and not a robot. Thank you for being here to help me get my lunch today." I think non-verbal communication goes a long way with this. (for the opposite effect, I see people order without so much as looking at the service person) In any case, it's important to me that people aren't treated as robots or less-than because of the job they're doing.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    > I want get the message across, "I see you. I know you're a real person and not a robot. Thank goodness for self-service checkouts these days where we don’t have to be bothered to get that message across, though.
    - redblacktree 8y ago
      Yeah, agreed. We've got to figure out the humanitarian side with basic income or something else, but those kinds of jobs are a waste of life. Let them do literally anything else.

barking 8y ago

I wonder how the Estonians compare?

deleted 8y ago

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fi358 8y ago

Sometimes in Finland you see people from countries like USA talking with each other endlessly and often quite loudly. Many of us Finns find it annoying as it is against local customs (it resembles situation where somebody comes too close to my personal space). This constant chit-chat prevents me concentrating on my own thoughts. I wouldn't mind if they would talk about some important things or keep their chit-chat short, but I don't want to be exposed to this kind of noise about trivial things for hours.

bluetomcat 8y ago
The constant chit-chat is at the surface of this phenomenon, it's the general hyperactivity of Americans that strikes me as an eastern European. Always moving around restlessly while holding a drink, overacting and commenting after any kind of trivial situation around them, something that most people would not care about at all.
- unstuckdev 8y ago
  I call those people annoying. I was born and raised and have lived my entire life in the US. I'm quiet, still, and prefer the same in the people around me. You can't assess over 300 million people by the few who can afford to travel.
  - robocat 8y ago
    One issue is that we generally notice the loud obnoxious stereotype, and there are enough Americans that fit that mould. And perhaps you are discounting that many people make their own judgement call based on the interactions they have had with Americans. I am not sure it has much to do with tourists per se. On the gripping hand, I am in Palma de Mallorca at the moment, which many Europeans travel to for the beach and party life: there are some definite stereotypes for the Poms and the Germans! Every visitor faces bigotry, some fair, some unfair. American's can get plenty of positive reaction too. At least most people have some idea about your country and customs from watching movies: try coming from a third world nation...

moltar 8y ago

Russian people are similar in that regard. We also don’t ask how are you. It’s mostly transactional with strangers.

fi358 8y ago
In Finland we sometimes ask how are you, especially if we know the person. However, it is usually meant to be a real question and not just empty phrase where "fine" is regarded as the only correct answer.
- seba_dos1 8y ago
  I'm so glad that recently on an interview with a foreign company, when I got asked "how are you?" at the beginning, it felt strange enough to remind me "just say 'fine' and be done with it" :D
- moltar 8y ago
  Yes, exactly the same for Russians. We do ask too, but genuinely and usually only our close friends and family.

seba_dos1 8y ago

I'd be definitely more interested in an article on "How US/UK survive with small talk".

jsilvers 8y ago
It's funny because often the stories about small talk in the US center on how vapid it is. People ask, "how are you," and most people are conditioned to say, "good, thanks" (or some variant) and leave it at that. Then you're trained to say, "and how are you?" and often it's the same reply. Then it's onto the weather, news, sports, or other topics. Despite that it's formulaic, as an American, it's comforting and within the norm.

andrewl 8y ago

A New Yorker article on American small talk is discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12031975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12031975

gorbachev 8y ago

Enough of this talking!

redhale 8y ago

> The Finnish don’t believe in talking bullshit How quaint!

anotherfinn 8y ago

As a Finn, I've always found this story quite amusing. An American comes to visit a Finnish university and tells about his first meetings there: https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=donal_carbaugh https://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...

m23khan 8y ago

If Finns were of brown race and were to go to Karachi, Pakistan, they would get depressed as over there, people won't even acknowledge their presence.

PeterStuer 8y ago

I love Finland. I love Oulu. But, come on, there isn't just the 1 type of Finn. And even the "silent' type (which I prefer) is very warm and outgoing when given space, sincerity and calm. In fact, I found getting into a decent conversation and a good night out as a stranger in Finland is way easier than in may other places.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

thekingofh 8y ago

Silence is great, but there's something more to small talk than just filling silence. Small talk primes the pump for some good conversation. I can't tell you how many times I've come across great conversations and tidbits of information that I'd never have if I didn't chat up with some kind of nonsense to start the conversation. Or alternatively if someone else didn't. The initial part of the conversation is useless, we all know that, but it's a handshake of sorts to see if there's a possibility of a good exchange of something more. If the other person doesn't want to talk, then a quick canned response is the equivalent of, "Hi I acknowledge you, but I don't want to talk right now.". There's a protocol. If the person wants to talk they'll give the canned response, with an added tidbit that can be grabbed onto for further conversation. People are usually just going through their day on autopilot, waiting for a opportunity to connect with someone.

hrktb 8y ago
I feel this is in the same vein as asking every girl on the street if she wants to have a drink. That definitely can be one way to meet one’s life partner. But it’s so grating from the other side, even if the request is very polite and non pushy. Some people live for the human contact, others don’t want any. Honestly it’s a PITA when the social norm puts an obligation to respond, even briefly, to not seem rude. If it’s a protocol, there should be an option to just drop the incomming packets and go on with one’s life.
- thekingofh 8y ago
  This is true if you are running into people on such a basis that it becomes cumbersome. It may be a cultural/geographical thing, where in the US there's ton's of space and in some areas, especially rural ones where you see more small talk, it's possible that you don't see anyone for days at a time, which means you run into your neighbor and the small talk is a way to prime up a conversation. The more dense the population the more cumbersome this type of behavior becomes. The larger the countryside, the more likely the people are going to be using small talk to break the ice.
- QuantumGood 8y ago
  A lot of life is dealing with things that are a PITA, and there are advantages in developing skill dealing with them. Develop a strategy, practice. Lots of books and articles about this.

draw_down 8y ago

I think often people who have such big problems with small talk are not appreciating what it actually is and what it's for. I'm sorry but I actively do not want to solve life's big mysteries with you while we wait in the bank line. There are lots of times in life where what is being communicated and what is being said are different, I don't see why that distinction is more of a problem in the case of small talk than anywhere else.

SilasX 8y ago

Random thought: I can't find it, so how do they translate the intro to Return of the Jedi? Moff Jerjerrod: Lord Vader. This is an unexpected pleasure. We are honored by your presence. Darth Vader: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I am here to put you back on schedule. Is Jerjerrod's line something they wouldn't say? Would it be confusing that someone would need to tell someone to skip the pleasantries?

farrisbris 8y ago
Can't remember either, but your recollection is close to what mine is. But given that Moff knows who/what Darth Vader is it is not supprising that he takes a subservient stance when talking to him. Kind of the same way i'm very careful around american cops. I would never address a norwegian cop by sir, but i don't even think twice before using sir/mam when talking to a us cop. But in these cases its fear. It has nothing to do with pleasentries. It's the gun in the holster or the knowledge that he can forcechoke you if he wants to. ( at least thats my interpretation of that encounter in rotj ). So no. I don't think they would say that in any normal encounter. I know i wouldn't other than in jest.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  This makes sense - I'd assume "I know my place, don't hurt me" is a sentiment that arises in basically any culture as long as somebody involved has lots of power and no accountability.
Bartweiss 8y ago
I'm curious whether this would actually be odd for Finns? Jerjerrod's line is phatic, but I think it's less small talk than deference or avoidance. The message is something like "I'm surprised and concerned someone with your status is involved in my work, please don't hurt me", which seems fairly universal.
- jnurmine 8y ago
  In the film it's translated like they say in English, if I recall it right. But if it were from real life from after 1950-1960s (when people used the third person as a polite form, still happens but rare) the dialogue would be like this: Darth Vader enters. Moff stops what he is doing, turns toward Vader and looks at him. Nothing is said, it is obvious to both that this is a surprise for Moff. There is a pause. Moff is waiting for Vader to indicate the purpose of this visit. It goes without saying that there is some purpose or Vader would not be here as he does not make courtesy calls; if he did, he would probably have brought a bouquet of flowers or a bottle of wine or such. If Vader would not say anything for a longer time, Moff would ask. But here Vader says: "I am here to put you back on schedule". Moff nods. Or at most says "Understood/OK". If Moff does not agree with the assessment that he is late, then he could start negotiating the issue, but as I recall from the film, he was aware of being late, so what is the point of arguing a fact. In an older time, I think Moff would have said "Lord Vader" to acknowledge him. Otherwise the dialogue would have gone more or less as above. That's my take of it, at least.

raffael-vogler 8y ago

> “Laura,” she told me matter-of-factly when I asked why we had bonded so quickly, “The Finnish don’t believe in talking bullshit.” I believe this is characterizing the sentiment of the article much better than what the title conveys. In my experience there are different types of small talk. The infamous kind found in the US is not the only definition of small talk. In many cultures small talk simply means talking without getting too personal - in the US this seems to be accomplished by exchanging what the Finnish girl refers to as "bullshit". > With two million saunas in the country, which are enjoyed fully nude (generally gender-segregated, although that rule tends to be thrown out in the company of friends), the Finnish seem to have no problem with getting up close and personal. But when clothes are on, the bets are off. Also an exaggeration in my experience. You can very well talk to strangers in Finland. Just that talking too shallow stuff is maybe not that popular. > Thanks to television and films (which are mostly broadcast in English) she was already acquainted with non-Finnish communication styles. That is such a dumb and sad thing to say. I really love the downtoearth friendliness of Finnish people. There is really no need to educate them - and certainly not by means of television. > When asked for an example of how she wishes Finnish society were more open, Now we go from talking less to a claim that Finnish society should be more open. It couldn't be further from the truth. If you have been to Helsinki you will have noticed that the society is super open and embracing refugees as well as people with handicaps. Almost everything is accessible to blind people or those using a wheelchair. > There are more hypotheses than answers for why Finnish culture has a veil of silence permanently stitched in place. And that is a good thing. Silence and the ability to maintain silence when there is no need for attention seeking behavior is such an important thing. It's awesome. > “When I was [back] in Finland, I was almost offended when I went to get a cup of coffee from a coffee shop and they didn’t say anything,” he recalled. “It was just ‘what do you want?’. How can you say that? Are you not going to ask anything before that? Oh, yeah. This is my home country. This is just the way things are. That is just half of the truth. They just won't pretend to be your super-nice new friend like it can be observed in Starbucks for example. But they will be actually very friendly. In no country I have been treated consistently exceptionally friendly by customer serive in shops or bars than in Finland / Helskinki. It's absolutely stunning how authentically friendly Finnish people are. --- I would rather tend to label typical Finnish communication as "healthy" - and there is a simple reason for it being like that. Finnish society itself is super healthy - just take a day-trip to Helsinki and you will feel it immediatly that Finland is doing something very right with regards to equality in the society and presence of culture.

flurdy 8y ago

Norwegian living in the UK. I remember my dad when he moved over here just found the whole initial greetings and small talk with his UK colleagues really funny. And even funnier to watch his mostly Swedish colleagues struggle with the same tennis ball banter at the start of every conversation. Instead of just getting to the point straight away. I was young enough to adapt quickly, but still I struggle with insincere greetings such as in some shops here now have US style greeters at the door. Find it hard to respond to their "Hi/Welcome/How are you" as I know they do not want a conversation, so why interfere with my personal space...

eternalban 8y ago
HELO flurdy WTF personal space! :) Small talk is a protocol. There is information exchange. Possibly the Finns are trying to out do the machine but even machines agree small talk is necessary :)
- kirkules 8y ago
  Are you saying TELNET is necessary because it is a protocol?
jiveturkey 8y ago
> US style greeters at the door don't worry, everyone hates that. i mentally flip them the bird.
QuantumGood 8y ago
In many situations, people benefit from working together. Skill at connecting with people accrues benefits to the persons with that skill. Of course, more simply, management wants: • Visitors with unique needs or problems checked for; • Visitors who prefer interaction made more likely to be repeat customers; • Determination of employee skill level at interaction; • A touch point for visitor questions or concerns; • Business branded as being interested in their customers; • Control over setting of social morays; • etc. etc.
jaclaz 8y ago
Even if it is by now rather dated, the classic about England [0] "strange" things for a foreigner remains "How to be an Alien" by George Mikes, JFYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_be_an_Alien https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_be_an_Alien [0] In England everything is different. You must understand that when people say ‘England’, they sometimes mean ‘Great Britain’ (England, Scotland and Wales), sometimes ‘the United Kingdom’ (England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland), sometimes the ‘British Isles’ (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland) – but never just England.

koevet 8y ago

I'm married to a Finn woman and I have lived in Helsinki for about 3 years. The lack of small talk is the norm in Finland, and, as a south-european, it takes a while to get used to. The article doesn't mention that there is a noticeable difference between boys and girls though. My experience is that girls are much more willing to engage in small talk in social situations. Men, including colleagues, can be really difficult to crack. Some men really open up only when alcol is involved - another aspect of Finnish society that the article overlooked.

Balgair 8y ago
The old 'peach vs. coconut' cultural modes: https://x-culture.org/peach-vs-coconut-cultures/ https://x-culture.org/peach-vs-coconut-cultures/

umichguy 8y ago

How do they survive? SISU - that's all you need to know about Finland. Look it up. #sisu

johan_larson 8y ago

This is too minor a matter for Finns to bother discussing. Those doing the talking must be FSB infiltrators.

lionhearted 8y ago

I was in Helsinki two years ago and loved every minute of it. I said to an American friend at the time, "I don't know why, but this is a great city to think in." This article helps explain it — there's less idle conversation, yes, but when conversing, it's actually much easier and straightforward to talk about deep and interesting things. And if you want to be quiet and just think, people are cool with that too. It's really a lovely place. Very clean and beautiful, too. Very much worth visiting.

gfs78 8y ago

Small talk it's not just chit chat, it's also a social regulator, at least here in Argentina. It is used a cue of respect and interest but also of disregard and rejection. How do the Finns cue interest in others, how do they cue rejection?

denebo 8y ago

I visted Finland two summers ago. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary in terms of friendliness or small-talk. I mostly visited bigger cities though.

haihaibye 8y ago

No mention of genetics. The Finns are different from the rest of Europe. When gnomAD, the current largest population sequencing project clustered Euro genomes together the biggest divide was between Finns and non Finns.

grawprog 8y ago

I have trouble making small talk but I enjoy listening to it. I genuinely enjoy listening to what's going on in people's lives, even if it's not very exciting. I try to remember things people say and ask about it next time. I find it better than just generic questions. People seem to enjoy talking about themselves and i've found it goes a long way just caring and remembering a little bit the little things going on in people's lives. Conversely I find when I do mention little things in small talk with people they actually tend to remember more than I think they will. Not everyone, but there's definitely people that do and it does feel nice.

8bitsrule 8y ago

"But if you’re lucky, sometimes a stranger will instantly become a friend and tell you everything." Damn! doesn't sound like luck to me ... and I'm far from Finnish. (At least I think so, even though I did once dive from sauna into ice-covered water.)

craftoman 8y ago

I love Scandinavian countries for that specific reason. People don't care about you but they will help you if you really need anything and relationships are very strong and take years to come. Here in Greece for example relationships are fake and fade from day one. You met a guy on Monday and on Friday you get an invitation to his house BUT the next Monday they pretend they haven't met you. Too much socialization leads to sociopathic disorders.

jaclaz 8y ago

A bit off topic, but one of the movies I always found really interesting (without having any idea how much "realistic" it might or might not be) has been "The man wihout a past": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Without_a_Past https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Without_a_Past The verbal exchanges appear so "alien" that they are highly facscinating to me.