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Just in case anyone is wondering how this plays out pricewise, the base model is $46.2k, but they headline the price as $33.2k: Price $45,000 Incentives: -$7,

by krrrh 8y ago

Just in case anyone is wondering how this plays out pricewise, the base model is $46.2k, but they headline the price as $33.2k: Price $45,000 Incentives: -$7,500 Gasoline savings: -$4,300 Price after savings: $33,200 Destination & doc fee: $1,200 It's rather disappointing that for all the talk from Tesla about disrupting the way people buy cars they maintain nonsense practices like adding on destination and doc fees, and add new ones like working gasoline savings into the displayed price.

benatkin 8y ago
TCO isn't nonsense. Because they aren't comparing to the TCO of other automobiles, they have to adjust the sticker price to help buyers consider the TCO.
- threeseed 8y ago
  Did Apple include TCO in their iPhone pricing given that they support their device longer than other OEMs ? No. Did Toyota include TCO in their hybrid car pricing given that it also reduces gas consumption? No. Did Rolex include TCO in their watch pricing given that the resale value doesn't significantly depreciate ? No. Nobody does this because it's intentionally deceptive.
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    Actually, iPhone pricing from US telcos used to only show the discounted price, with the carrier subsidy. You paid sales tax on the full price, but that number was in the fine print. These days you can buy it either way, so it's more obvious.
    - olliej 8y ago
      Back in those days I didn’t think you could buy them unlocked, which I guess makes it a more “fair” private than if you were to do it today. But yeah it was weird in other countries when you would see “Thing X costs $Y” and everyone would do the $Y * exchange rate and say “why is it so much cheaper there”. Then you come to America and discover that the advertised price excludes compulsory fees and taxes. All American companies do this, and I would argue it is unethical, and should be illegal, but I don’t have the billions of dollars needed to buy a law.
FireBeyond 8y ago
Only in the US would be advertising a sticker price that includes hypothetical "gas savings" be not considered misleading to the consumer. Perhaps if they want to advertise gas savings they should be forced to also add "increased home electricity costs".
- threeseed 8y ago
  That is disgraceful behaviour. I guess bottled water then should be considered free since it's significantly healthier than drinking any else. Or maybe my laptop should be considered free since it's used to earn money.
- imladyboy 8y ago
  They do account for electricity costs in the "gas savings": "The average person drives between 10,000 and 15,000 miles and spends between $1,000 and $1,500 on gasoline per year. In comparison, the cost of electricity to power Model 3 over the same distance is up to three times lower. Over the six year average length of car ownership, that's between $4,300 and $6,400 in gasoline savings. We've assumed a fuel economy of 28 miles per gallon for a comparable gasoline powered sedan, for example, the 2017 BMW 3 series. We've also assumed the national average of $0.13 per kilowatt-hour for electricity and $2.85 per gallon for premium gasoline over the next six years."
  - titanomachy 8y ago
    Numbers are even better in Canada where we have cheap hydro power and tax the shit out of gasoline.
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      Washington state has cheap hydro also, as to a lesser extent do many of the other states in the west coast (California has lots of hydro, but they also need lots of electricity and even import from Washington). Is electricity in Canada generally cheaper than in the states?
devy 8y ago
Totally agree. And their full $7500 (max possible) federal tax rebate just ran out a few days ago.[1] Now it drops to $3,750 (max possible) and orders delivered after June 30 2019 will only receive an $1,875 (max possible) tax credit. [1]: http://fortune.com/2018/10/12/tax-credit-tesla-deadline/ http://fortune.com/2018/10/12/tax-credit-tesla-deadline/
- mynameisvlad 8y ago
  If you order right now, there's a chance you'll still get the car by the end of the year (which is all that really matters with the credit), but you'd be cutting it pretty close. All Tesla claimed was that Oct 15 is the deadline for guaranteeing getting the car before the end of the year. Likely, there'll be a bit of leeway that will see people ordering within the next few days also get the car by the end of the year, especially with a 4-6 week promised turnaround for the AWD models (6-10 on the RWD one talked about here cuts it really close).
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  The full $7500 tax credit is applicable on any new, inventory, or demo vehicle previously not registered to someone until December 31st, 2018. You might have to order a Model 3 by a certain date to take delivery before then, but the tax credit is applicable until the end of the year.
  - devy 8y ago
    Source?
zeroxfe 8y ago
I kinda get you, but just because there's a bunch of marketing gibberish on the pricing page doesn't mean they aren't being disruptive.
- RL_Quine 8y ago
  I think part of the point of being disruptive is that you don't need to sink that low.
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    The iPhone disrupted the phone buying process, and still showed you a discounted price, after phone carrier subsidy.
- threeseed 8y ago
  Thank god in most places in the world that kind of disruption is illegal.
- krrrh 8y ago
  I was specifically addressing their claims of disrupting the buying process. Under that criteria, ending price obfuscation (especially the doc fee) should be table stakes. As for the gas savings, it wouldn't be bad at all if they trumpeted the net cost after 5 years and clearly demonstrated the savings, but they lead with a made up price that no one will be paying. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
The $7500 incentive halves this month, it’s too late to get it ATM.
- imladyboy 8y ago
  I keep seeing people saying "it's too late", but the order page literally says "All customers are eligible for the full $7,500 Federal Tax Credit if they take delivery by the end of the year."
- njarboe 8y ago
  As long as you take delivery before Jan 1, you will get the $7500 federal tax credit. Tesla said you had to order by Oct 15th to guarantee delivery before then.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Yes, that is what they told me.
matahwoosh 8y ago
Looks like they still don't have the "standard interior" option available, so that's extra $5k. Once (or if) they offer standard interior, we're talking $40k. If they're calling this battery option mid-range and it's 260mi range, then it's sounds like we're yet to see the 200+mi (maybe 210-220) $35k car. They're probably not able to produce the $35k car yet without losing money.
- greglindahl 8y ago
  You're making a huge assumption. Tesla's past behavior is that they fill their assembly line with the highest margin cars until they run low on demand for them, then add lower margin cars. That says nothing about the profitability of the $35k car. Plus, we're talking marginal profitably: the assembly line is a sunk cost now that it's fully purchased.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
billhathaway 8y ago
I also find the way they are listing the price annoying, but the destination fee is government mandated and has to be a separate line item per KBB. [1] https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/articles/destination-charges/ https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/articles/destination-charges/
joyeuse6701 8y ago
To their credit, Tesla does not inundate the masses with ads designed to incite emotional responses and associations that incentivize you to buy no matter the price.
- justtopost 8y ago
  They don't? Different marketing channels is very different than some egalitarian no advertising model. Tesla was launched on 'incintive to buy no matter the price', their roadster was hardly practical, nor superior to supercars at the time.

by krrrh 8y ago

benatkin 8y ago

TCO isn't nonsense. Because they aren't comparing to the TCO of other automobiles, they have to adjust the sticker price to help buyers consider the TCO.

threeseed 8y ago
Did Apple include TCO in their iPhone pricing given that they support their device longer than other OEMs ? No. Did Toyota include TCO in their hybrid car pricing given that it also reduces gas consumption? No. Did Rolex include TCO in their watch pricing given that the resale value doesn't significantly depreciate ? No. Nobody does this because it's intentionally deceptive.
- greglindahl 8y ago
  Actually, iPhone pricing from US telcos used to only show the discounted price, with the carrier subsidy. You paid sales tax on the full price, but that number was in the fine print. These days you can buy it either way, so it's more obvious.
  - olliej 8y ago
    Back in those days I didn’t think you could buy them unlocked, which I guess makes it a more “fair” private than if you were to do it today. But yeah it was weird in other countries when you would see “Thing X costs $Y” and everyone would do the $Y * exchange rate and say “why is it so much cheaper there”. Then you come to America and discover that the advertised price excludes compulsory fees and taxes. All American companies do this, and I would argue it is unethical, and should be illegal, but I don’t have the billions of dollars needed to buy a law.

FireBeyond 8y ago

Only in the US would be advertising a sticker price that includes hypothetical "gas savings" be not considered misleading to the consumer. Perhaps if they want to advertise gas savings they should be forced to also add "increased home electricity costs".

threeseed 8y ago
That is disgraceful behaviour. I guess bottled water then should be considered free since it's significantly healthier than drinking any else. Or maybe my laptop should be considered free since it's used to earn money.
imladyboy 8y ago
They do account for electricity costs in the "gas savings": "The average person drives between 10,000 and 15,000 miles and spends between $1,000 and $1,500 on gasoline per year. In comparison, the cost of electricity to power Model 3 over the same distance is up to three times lower. Over the six year average length of car ownership, that's between $4,300 and $6,400 in gasoline savings. We've assumed a fuel economy of 28 miles per gallon for a comparable gasoline powered sedan, for example, the 2017 BMW 3 series. We've also assumed the national average of $0.13 per kilowatt-hour for electricity and $2.85 per gallon for premium gasoline over the next six years."
- titanomachy 8y ago
  Numbers are even better in Canada where we have cheap hydro power and tax the shit out of gasoline.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Washington state has cheap hydro also, as to a lesser extent do many of the other states in the west coast (California has lots of hydro, but they also need lots of electricity and even import from Washington). Is electricity in Canada generally cheaper than in the states?

devy 8y ago

Totally agree. And their full $7500 (max possible) federal tax rebate just ran out a few days ago.[1] Now it drops to $3,750 (max possible) and orders delivered after June 30 2019 will only receive an $1,875 (max possible) tax credit. [1]: http://fortune.com/2018/10/12/tax-credit-tesla-deadline/ http://fortune.com/2018/10/12/tax-credit-tesla-deadline/

mynameisvlad 8y ago
If you order right now, there's a chance you'll still get the car by the end of the year (which is all that really matters with the credit), but you'd be cutting it pretty close. All Tesla claimed was that Oct 15 is the deadline for guaranteeing getting the car before the end of the year. Likely, there'll be a bit of leeway that will see people ordering within the next few days also get the car by the end of the year, especially with a 4-6 week promised turnaround for the AWD models (6-10 on the RWD one talked about here cuts it really close).
toomuchtodo 8y ago
The full $7500 tax credit is applicable on any new, inventory, or demo vehicle previously not registered to someone until December 31st, 2018. You might have to order a Model 3 by a certain date to take delivery before then, but the tax credit is applicable until the end of the year.
- devy 8y ago
  Source?

zeroxfe 8y ago

I kinda get you, but just because there's a bunch of marketing gibberish on the pricing page doesn't mean they aren't being disruptive.

RL_Quine 8y ago
I think part of the point of being disruptive is that you don't need to sink that low.
- greglindahl 8y ago
  The iPhone disrupted the phone buying process, and still showed you a discounted price, after phone carrier subsidy.
threeseed 8y ago
Thank god in most places in the world that kind of disruption is illegal.
krrrh 8y ago
I was specifically addressing their claims of disrupting the buying process. Under that criteria, ending price obfuscation (especially the doc fee) should be table stakes. As for the gas savings, it wouldn't be bad at all if they trumpeted the net cost after 5 years and clearly demonstrated the savings, but they lead with a made up price that no one will be paying. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

The $7500 incentive halves this month, it’s too late to get it ATM.

imladyboy 8y ago
I keep seeing people saying "it's too late", but the order page literally says "All customers are eligible for the full $7,500 Federal Tax Credit if they take delivery by the end of the year."
njarboe 8y ago
As long as you take delivery before Jan 1, you will get the $7500 federal tax credit. Tesla said you had to order by Oct 15th to guarantee delivery before then.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Yes, that is what they told me.

matahwoosh 8y ago

Looks like they still don't have the "standard interior" option available, so that's extra $5k. Once (or if) they offer standard interior, we're talking $40k. If they're calling this battery option mid-range and it's 260mi range, then it's sounds like we're yet to see the 200+mi (maybe 210-220) $35k car. They're probably not able to produce the $35k car yet without losing money.

greglindahl 8y ago
You're making a huge assumption. Tesla's past behavior is that they fill their assembly line with the highest margin cars until they run low on demand for them, then add lower margin cars. That says nothing about the profitability of the $35k car. Plus, we're talking marginal profitably: the assembly line is a sunk cost now that it's fully purchased.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

billhathaway 8y ago

I also find the way they are listing the price annoying, but the destination fee is government mandated and has to be a separate line item per KBB. [1] https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/articles/destination-charges/ https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/articles/destination-charges/

joyeuse6701 8y ago

To their credit, Tesla does not inundate the masses with ads designed to incite emotional responses and associations that incentivize you to buy no matter the price.

justtopost 8y ago
They don't? Different marketing channels is very different than some egalitarian no advertising model. Tesla was launched on 'incintive to buy no matter the price', their roadster was hardly practical, nor superior to supercars at the time.