6 ms·
Finance makes Apple and Google forced friends
- rock_hard 8y agoApple cares about privacy so much, they let Google do the dirty part of the business and just take the checks.
- endorphone 8y agoIgnoring that you can change the search engine, what Google knows about a user using Google search on an iPhone, and a user using search on a Google Play Android device are extraordinarily different. Let's not pretend at some false equivalency here.
- alienreborn 8y agoApple says 'Privacy is a Human right' and continuously positioned/marketed itself as the champion of privacy especially over last year when FB and GOOG are in news reg. various privacy violation issues. Now, the article estimates over 10% of profits made by Apple are from Google because it sets Google as default search engine on a browser which comes default. So, Apple doesn't really believe what it says to the world based on its actions here and the way it folded in China reg. iCloud.
- lern_too_spel 8y agoNo, they are exactly the same. Despite what Apple marketing would like you to believe, the search app collects the same information when you perform the same actions on both devices.
- bhtru 8y agoIs it incorrect to believe that there’s more telemetry sent to Google on an Android device vs an iPhone? IIRC, Google specific cookies in Chrome desktop can’t necessarily be turned off by typical methods so can we infer that a device running Android has more monitoring a la that vein than an iPhone?
- lern_too_spel 8y agoYes, it is incorrect. Using Chrome on Android also sends the exact same information as Chrome on iOS.
- bhtru 8y agoThe default browser for iOS is Safari whose default search engine is Google. Does the comparison hold true still?
- lern_too_spel 8y agoUp to the user. On Android, the user does not even need to sign in to an account to use the device. On iOS, you must sign into an Apple ID (which, unlike a Google or Facebook account, can never be deleted). Until very recently, you had to provide a credit card to download any apps at all onto your iPhone. This was never the case on Google Play Android devices.
- Doctor_Fegg 8y ago"the search app" Genuinely - what's this on iOS? I don't recall ever having used a "search app" on my iPhone.
- lern_too_spel 8y agohttps://itunes.apple.com/us/app/google/id284815942?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/google/id284815942?mt=8 Just as there is a Google search app on Android (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and...) there is a Google search app on iOS. They collect the same information when you perform the same actions, though many irrationally believe otherwise. Similarly, the Google search web app collects exactly the same information on both platforms.
- endorphone 8y agoA lot of things are getting conflated in this discussion. We are discussing the default search if you type a non-URL in the address bar of Safari. This is what Google is paying for, and while it ends up on a website with the limited ability to track that a website has, the sphere of data that Google has is just a tiny pittance compared to on a Play Store device (where they know essentially everything). People are bringing up the Google Search app, Chrome for iOS, etc. Irrelevant.
- lern_too_spel 8y ago> the sphere of data that Google has is just a tiny pittance compared to on a Play Store device (where they know essentially everything) They know fewer things than Apple knows for people who never opt in to any of the opt in settings and leave opt out settings alone. On a Play Store device, AGPS data collection is opt in. On iOS, it is not even opt out — you can't even disable it. Play Store devices look even better when you consider what can be opted out of by setting default apps and by installing system wide ad blockers.
- endorphone 8y agoAnother conflation. I was specifically talking about what Google knows. By using an iOS device, even if I use Google Search their universe of knowledge about me collapses. Even if I accept the notion that Apple collects more data than Google (which is dubious), Google's intentions with that data are far more insidious. I simply trust Apple a lot more as well.
- alanlamm 8y agoSurely Google gets more data from Android. But it does get much more data on iOS than Apple would have you believe. Case in point - Apple ostensibly prevents apps from uniquely identifying devices other than through ‘safe’ ad and vendor-specific ids. But just implement Google Firebase Anonymous Authentication in an app and try to get it to forget your id. you can delete the app and all other apps from same vendor, reset your ad id, set ‘limit tracking’ delete all google apps, clear google logins & passwords on your device, update the iOS, and when you reinstall it still knows who you are. Short of wiping the phone completely (which I haven’t tried bc of the hassle) Google appears to not only uniquely identify your device in a pretty sticky way, but to sell & give away this capability to anybody who wants it.
- innagadadavida 8y agoGoogle search seems to be deteorating but it is still the best one out there. I tried to switch to DDG and found myself using the !g trick to get google result way too often.
- chc 8y agoI started using it a few months ago and I find it's good enough probably 90% of the time. It's often enough that it's not really a pain.
- moccachino 8y agoIn my experience, for anything technical (code problems, datasheets, component info or news) Google gets me the info I want much faster than DDG. I still have DDG as my default, but very often search again by Google.
- toxik 8y agoFor me it's perfect: you get a three-character penalty to remind you that you're sacrificing your privacy for convenience. Up-front cost. I do the same with social apps on my phone, I put them far off right on the dashboard, in a folder. That way, it's a little bit annoying. Just a little.
- pilsetnieks 8y agoDoes it really work that way? Does Apple let Google use tracking cookies, browser fingerprinting, account information and/or some unique user identifiers for these searches? Are these requests even made from the phone directly or are they piped through Apple's servers? (I'm not talking about Safari but things like Siri and Spotlight.)
- msvan 8y agoI often hear the argument that Apple respects user privacy because their business model is selling hardware, not user data. However, they are making billions of dollars by letting Google sell data for them.
- Aloha 8y agoThe user in the end chooses to use google however.
- mtgx 8y agoDefault presets are not the user "choosing" something. It's why companies always choose the opt-out method vs opt-in.
- swombat 8y agoI've tried a variety of search engines and I always end up going back to Google. They're just better overall for me. That's been my experience and based on that I can see it being justifiable for Apple (who is after all a very opinionated company) taking a similar stand: we don't like defaulting to Google but they're just the best game in town so if we want the iPhone to be the best phone out of the box it needs to default to Google.
- ikeboy 8y agoI'm sure the $9 billion helps
- ummonk 8y agoYeah that's the issue. Even if they weren't getting paid, they'd still have to choose Google for a reasonable user experience. And I don't see that changing. It's one thing for Apple to get into Maps, and it's another for them to get into search...
- Someguywhatever 8y ago
- lordnacho 8y agoI was expecting an article that had something to do with financial matters, perhaps tax or borrowing rates. This is just saying that Google finds it useful to pay Apple to be the default search engine on their devices. There are many, many relationships where a firm pays another firm money to do something; we don't call that finance even though cash is a financial instrument.
- devtique 8y agoMost articles are written primarily to generate viewership, this isn’t saying anything new, it’s just putting a spin on existing content to generate new content and more views.
- mricketson 8y agoIsn’t this kind of a hyperbolic comparison? This is revenue, and should be compared to total revenue, not profit. By this measure, if two people pay me $1, and I have $1 in costs, then both people are responsible for 100% of my $1 profits.
- devtique 8y agoExcept it’s a more accurate comparison in this case since setting a default search engine is essentially pure profit, where as a hardware company Apple only makes a fraction of profit from their total revenue so it would be more accurate to compare Apple’s Googles revenue against their (pre tax) net income.
- JoshTko 8y agoNot really. The direct costs to Apple for this revenue is probably inconsequential.
- igammarays 8y agoBut the payment is pure profit because there’s no cost associated with setting Google as the default search engine.
- mricketson 8y agoGoogle doesn’t pay Apple out of thin air for no reason – it pays because of the popularity and market power of the platform, which only comes from significant, sustained investment by Apple. It’s not separable from the rest of the balance sheet. If Apple stopped investing in the platform, then Google eventually would too.
- l3robot 8y agoDisclaimer: I am not an historian nor a sociologist nor a political scientist. It is pure intuition, so please correct me if you find me wrong. This kind of article recalling the war declared between Apple and Google by strong characters (reaching almost royal admiration) like Steve Jobs and showing their alliance now forced by economical benefits, brings to my head an observation I make for some years now. It feels like the world is more and more returning to a, though different, late Middle Age state where kingdoms, merchants/bankers and religion were in control. It feels like we are close to the end of the powerful democratic state. Yes, these forces has always existed and played a major role in political affairs, but during thr XXth century, we managed to keep it marginal, at least in the West. Now there is an inversion, Kingdoms are coming back. There is a lot of example: formation of alliances over sole benefits of oligarchs, growth of organisations never seen from a long time, customer attachment to a company like it was a dogma, tax and regulation ducking by companies, companies wars often more important than wars between states, states bending to organisations wishes, etc. Maybe to return to this state is a human reflex. Like were unable to create a stable democratic state. I don't know what to think about it atm, but I'm pretty sure we are on the edge of a great schism with the modern era.
- jimmy1 8y agoI don't know what to think either. Thinking about it at a higher level than this: Some days I really think people don't know how to live under a democracy. There just always seems to be this segment of the population that want to be told what to think (and preferably told things are going well) Some days I think liberty is the only way to live life, but that people mistake that liberty doesn't come at a cost. Most people don't have enough skin in the game to be willing to accept that cost. The original pilgrims, the founding fathers, and the lot did. There are attacks on our liberities that would have started revolutions (Patriot act being the most egregious example). Don't know what to think anymore. Politics disgust me. I'm told I'm not even old enough to be this cynical.
- ethbro 8y agoPolitics in a democracy has always disgusted everyone. Per Churchill, "No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time..."
- mishurov 8y agoApple NPCs will defend this.
- SteveGregory 8y agoI've wondered what would happen if Apple acquired DuckDuckGo. In theory, Apple could overpay a lot and still make a ridiculous return by using it as their default search engine. The usage would multiply overnight. It would also reinforce Apple's position on privacy, and make Apple less dependent on Google for revenue.
- Aditya_Garg 8y agoDuckDuckGo is not it's own search engine. It's an aggregator of other search engines (mostly Bing).
- jlarocco 8y agoI can't believe can't even do the tiniest bit of research. DDG isn't an aggregator, and it doesn't use Bing any more than it uses Google, Wikipedia, StackOverflow or anything else. https://duck.co/forum/thread/4350/did-you-know-that-duckduckgo-bing https://duck.co/forum/thread/4350/did-you-know-that-duckduck...
- LeoPanthera 8y agoAnd yet their own documentation says that their "normal" search results come from Oath (Yahoo) and... Bing: https://duck.co/help/results/sources https://duck.co/help/results/sources The other sources are only for their "instant answers" that appear at the top.
- Aditya_Garg 8y agoFrom what Ive read, DDG uses Bing's API to populate its search results. https://www.quora.com/How-is-the-Bing-API-used-by-DuckDuckGo https://www.quora.com/How-is-the-Bing-API-used-by-DuckDuckGo I was just trying to point out that Apple is unlikely to buy a search engine that relies on another competitor's product.
- guyzero 8y agoHow would Apple make any return? Do you think DDG's ads are as profitable as Google's?
- antirez 8y agoI wonder what would happen in a parallel universe where Google says, let's change strategy, and provide all the Google suite apps, gmail, maps, photos, ... only to Android, at the cost of the Apple users/traffic. Maybe this would provide a so big advantage to Android to, in the end, recover the loss and create big issues to Apple. But my feeling is that Google pretends that the iPhone is going to be eaten by Android soon or later anyway.
- kakaorka 8y agoI think what would happen is the opposite. Apple users would just stop using these apps and look for alternatives that exist on the App Store. Adobe tried to do what you're suggesting with Photoshop and it failed; now they're going to offer PS to the iPad.
- enitihas 8y agoChina also makes it easy to see there really isn't much difference between the two corporations, accept that of convenience. Apple already operates in China and complies to the whims of the Chinese government. Google too may start doing that. The Apple business model allows Apple to have a stronger stance for privacy when convenient, but they aren't willing to forgo the big buck when it comes to the big business (China)
- gumby 8y agoApple isn't dependent on Google though; Google is paying that much because there are others willing to pay. That's all money they are paying to buy the >85% of revenues that advertising constitutes (would be higher if they hadn't moved Nest onto the P/L. I have often criticized google for not producing any new products (aggregated, the motley assortment of other revenue streams barely crack 14%) since Adwords & Adsense almost 20 years ago, but I have to admit the purchase of Android has really paid off: if it weren't for Android, Google would probably be paying 4x or 5x what they are now to Apple.