38 ms·

H-1B: As immigration furor roils Silicon Valley, Canada smooths way for techies

304 points by muzz 8y ago

___cs____ 8y ago
Canada/Australia have thriving scene, but somehow the number of jobs is really low. There was a nice discussion on reddit about brain drain to Australia/Canada. https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/9l1pug/which_country_has_a_thriving_tech_scene_for_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/9l1pug/w... https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/9l3ueo/which_country_has_a_thriving_tech_scene_for_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/9l3ueo/which_coun...
- vthallam 8y ago
  Usually, jobs follow. Big companies already use Canada as a bench for foreign workers who couldn't get the H1-B through lottery. In the last couple months, I heard 2 big announcements, Microsoft establishing their Canada HQ[0] in Toronto, Uber [1] is investing big time. [0] - https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/microsoft-canadian-headquarters_a_23524349/ https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/microsoft-canadian-... [1] - https://techvibes.com/2018/09/13/uber-expands-canadian-presence-with-200-million-investment https://techvibes.com/2018/09/13/uber-expands-canadian-prese... [2] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-beats-bay-area-in-new-tech-jobs-and-new-york-in-talent https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-b...
  - qaq 8y ago
    Yep my friend in Ukraine got an offer from one of US tech giants the process is if they can't secure H1B they just move people to Canada.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  I can't comment on the tech scene in Melbourne, as I don't really participate in it outside of work, but there are plenty of jobs here. It took me less than 2 weeks to find a job as a Ruby on Rails developer here in Melbourne. The comments bagging on Australia seem like the classic self-denigrating comments that Aussies love to make about themselves.
- adriand 8y ago
  'Toronto’s tech scene is so hot the city created more jobs than the San Francisco Bay area, Seattle and Washington, D.C., combined last year, while leapfrogging New York in a ranking of “talent markets."' https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-beats-bay-area-in-new-tech-jobs-and-new-york-in-talent https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-b...
- jpatokal 8y ago
  You won't have any trouble finding IT jobs in the big cities. But ironically enough, the difficulty of getting a visa in Australia has also been ratcheted up recently, meaning that many employers who would love to hire can't sponsor the visa...
NTDF9 8y ago
I don't think US realizes that Canada and Australia are actively poaching talent. These guys work there for a couple of years, some of them start startups, businesses. They hire other top people (both local and talented immigrants). Then they sell their products/services to the whole world! Major companies get attracted to areas with talent. That's why so so many companies have major offices in India now. Because of the pool of talent. Not just because of cost-cutting. An example is: If Amazon doesn't hire enough smart people, they won't be able to expand/move nimbly and will get beaten by Flipkart in India (who have their own empire desires).
hosh 8y ago
Hmm. And let's see. One of the world's top research for AI is in Canada ...
- screye 8y ago
  Yep, Montreal is slowly becoming an AI hub. Microsoft has already opened their AI research branch in Montreal. Google Brain is in Montreal too. I can see it becoming a more popular spot as time goes on.
deleted 8y ago
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zeroxfe 8y ago
As horrible as it sounds, in this specific respect, the current US administration has been really fantastic for Canada. More and more new grads are choosing to stay in the country and work with local tech companies, and we're experiencing a reverse brain-drain like never before.
- b1tr0t 8y ago
  From a Canadian viewpoint, the last couple of years of populism has been a bit like discovering your favorite Uncle has a probably lethal opiate addiction. But, you're going to get to inherit his Corvette.
  - timewarrior 8y ago
    Hi, can you please clarify this. I didn't get the context. I am planning to move to Canada and would love to get multiple view points.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    Man, too close to home.
  - emptybits 8y ago
    Canadian here also. I like your analogy. Opiates don't stop at national or socio-economic boundaries. So a prediction I hope I'm wrong about: We temporarily enjoy driving the bully uncle's Corvette but soon find ourselves chasing the same dragon in it.
  - gruez 8y ago
    >your favorite Uncle has a probably lethal opiate addiction. are you talking about the crack smoking mayor?
  - a3n 8y ago
    Cool, but he's not maintaining the Corvette, he's running it into the ground.
- domador 8y ago
echan00 8y ago
True story, I know of many skilled folks who moved to Canada because residency in the U.S was just too painful.
- chocolatebunny 8y ago
  For what it's worth, I know many skilled folks (myself included) who moved from Canada to the US because there are more job prospects with significantly higher pay. I hope all these people make Canada more competitive since I'd like to move back at some point but right now, the US is more cost effective if you can get in.
  - echan00 8y ago
    Yes, that is also true. Its why I'm still in the Bay Area.
8f2ab37a-ed6c 8y ago
Are people with GCs screwed too? I've been postponing getting a citizenship, for no particular reason, but I'm now wondering if I should get on that just so that I don't somehow get bounced out of the country or get locked outside when I travel.
- echan00 8y ago
  As a Canadian (in the Bay Area) today, getting bounced out of the U.S is always at the back of my mind.
- techsupporter 8y ago
  A friend of mine tells me that one of his biggest regrets from the past handful of years is not having applied for and received citizenship when President Obama was president. He has a misdemeanor (for something that almost every US citizen would consider trivial) from when he was a teenager but because of when it happened and what it is, naturalizing would require a waiver from USCIS in order to proceed (and to not be deported). President Obama's USCIS granted waivers for conduct so many years back almost as a matter of course. President Trump's USCIS--according to the two immigration lawyers my friend has consulted--has not only stopped granting the waivers, they refer applicants for the waivers instead to deportation proceedings. There's no one to advocate for people like him to be able to remain because he is a convicted criminal, even just of a minor offence, so he's been told to keep his head down and hope nobody investigates the dusty files. But, assuming you are "clean," there are people to advocate for you so applying for citizenship should be a safe bet and would get you the guarantee of remaining in and traveling to and from the US for the rest of your life. If you intend to live here for the foreseeable future, I'd recommend giving it a go lest this administration decide to start trying to arbitrarily yank GCs.
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 8y ago
    Are there any downsides to getting one, outside of perhaps having to let go of one's other citizenships for countries that don't allow it?
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
> As the administration of President Donald Trump has increased scrutiny of H-1B visas Has it? All that has been done is a study of potential H-1B reforms that is still under way. I'd bet that nothing changes in the next two years. The puppet masters wouldn't want it any other way.
- neofrommatrix 8y ago
  Unfortunately, it has. The process is now more opaque, and it’s taking longer to get an approval. The number of requests for evidence has increased by close to 40%. There seems to be a deliberate attempt to frustrate legal immigrants out of the US, or at least, it feels like it. This is anecdotal, but I personally know 4 families that threw in the towel and moved to Canada. So, yes, in terms of policy, nothing’s changed, but they have increased the overall level of frustration. On top of that, this has scared off a lot of companies from even looking at H1-Bs while hiring.
  - singhrk 8y ago
    Second that. I am a legal immigrant. Been in US for 5+yrs. Work in a FAANG company. Have a valid work permit (h1b) till 2021. Came back to home country for stamping, now my case is in administrative processing for 4+ months. House/Job/Child Education, all impacted because of this.
    - vthallam 8y ago
      Sorry to hear that. Are you still in India waiting for your visa to be processed? Know the reason for administrative processing?
      - singhrk 8y ago
        yeah still here. No reason given. Reached out to customer service several times but no conclusive update on (a) why my case is in admin processing (b) how long will it take to get resolved (c) at what status is it currently. Its just a painful endless wait, which can get over in a few days or in worst case in more than a year
tick_tock_tick 8y ago
Canada's aggressively merit based immigration policy has clear advantages in terms of allowing talent in. That said Canadian tech firms still pay way too little.
- GFischer 8y ago
  Indeed, the reason I don't consider moving to Canada is that the areas where I'd like to live are too expensive and salaries too low for the high cost of living, mostly housing (I already can't purchase a house where I live but at least I can hope to, I'd be priced out even worse in Canada).
  - refurb 8y ago
    Toronto and Vancouver housing prices aren't that much lower than the Bay area. However, it does look like the trend is downward in those two cities at the moment.
- sbierwagen 8y ago
  Some might draw a connection between Canada's open doors policy for skilled immigrants, and the low salaries paid.
  - mywittyname 8y ago
    I don't think it's the primary reason. The Canadian tech sector doesn't make nearly as much money as their US counterpart does. The country has very few dedicated software companies, and none the caliber of the FAAMGs. For comparison, the largest software company in Canada by revenue earns $1.7B, Google is in the neighborhood of $120B a year. Google/Microsoft/Facebook/Apple/etc are each individually orders of magnitude larger than the entire Canadian software industry combined. Chances are, that most metro areas in the US have a technology company larger than the biggest Canadian tech companies. If Canada went from having a billion dollar tech sector to having a trillion dollar one, then salaries for engineers would explode.
    - 8y ago
otalp 8y ago
I suppose my comments from yesterdays thread about "Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atmosphere" is relevant: I did the math for Toronto(which is more expensive than Montreal, and about the same as Vancouver). For a typical software engineer, taxes take away 25% of gross pay in Ontario while it's over 30% in California and New York. Cost of living is much less(by 30-40% if you rent) in Toronto compared to Cali/New York. Of course, you will also earn 40% less in USD. So it about evens out. The site Hired.com came to similar conclusions that I've attached in an image below [2] To go into more detail, According to numbeo[1] which crowdsources data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) in Toronto, but of course the salary is more than 20% lower. But the real kicker is the rent, and while Toronto rent is definitely increasing, it is nowhere close to NYC of Silicon Valley levels, and most sources do say you have to pay 50% more for an equivalent apartment in NYC. Also according to my calculations from the data on numbeo, the equivalent of (pre-tax) $135,000 USD in NYC is $110,000 CAD in Toronto. It is of course easier to get 135k in NYC than 110k in Toronto, but the difference isn't nearly as big as the CAD/USD differences and wage gap makes it seem. And if you can get a job in the Waterloo-Kitchenner area, CoL of course plummets. Freelancing for clients in the US or working remotely also has great advantages. If you're a US citizen, I don't think Canada or Toronto is enticing enough to drag you away - especially with places like Seattle, Austin and Colorado being better than SV and NYC in terms of Salary:CoL. But if you're not, Canada is comfortably the second best company to be a software engineer in, and the expected expansion of Amazon, Google and Microsoft in Toronto is likely to create a lot more high paying jobs and new startups in the coming years, especially with the US's anti-immigration stance basically making it impossible for Indians and the Chinese to get permanent residency. The excellent universities and industry leading research in AI of UToronto and UWaterloo is a bonus if you're a student as well. [1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou.. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou.... [2] http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8fd629baac34d01d5dcb2af9c95973137e2bebefc917c29f35292b23b67c5.png http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8...
- refurb 8y ago
  data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) Why would you adjust for currency when you're paid in Canadian dollars?
sunstone 8y ago
Well Toronto is definitely cooler than California.
Bhilai 8y ago
I can attest to this. I have three friends who are preparing to migrate to Canada or Australia. Mind you, these are not the typical H1B workers from Infosys. These are smart legitimate people with a masters degree who work at top tech companies. They have no hopes to get a permanent residency in US because of long queues. Renewing H1B is a big hassle. Surely its a big change to pick up your life up and move to a different country but its probably for the good considering the current administration's anti-immigrant stand and seemingly socially regressive and anti-science policies. This issue has been coming to a head for a while now. My friends at Apple and Microsoft tell me that the immigration woes are picking up heat internally and related questions are making an appearance at internal Q/A with senior management (Tim Cook) so it remains to be seen if tech companies would be able influence any policies.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- gnufied 8y ago
  For first time ever I think - my Employer (again not an outsourcing firm) has started holding immigration Towh hall meetings for all employees on H1Bs. Its like getting called to principal office and you don't know why. The fear, uncertainty and doubt is very real among all immigrants afaict.
- HumanDrivenDev 8y ago
  I wish so badly I could trade places, as a conservative man stuck in a 'progressive' country with lower wages. Give me a great salary and Blumpffss 'regressive' US any day.
  - sincerely 8y ago
    I mean...why can't you?
    - HumanDrivenDev 8y ago
      The same reason not every "I'm totally moving to canada/australia/new zealand/europe" liberal in the US can do so. Immigration laws.
dmode 8y ago
I am in the same boat. Planning to move to Canada next year. I have worked in the Valley for 10 years. Had a great time, but unfortunately the wait for GC is over 20 years now and the administration has signaled that we are not welcome (my H1 was denied for some BS reasons).
- trhway 8y ago
  I guess the people like you have been stealing good American jobs and depressing wages in the Bay Area, and that has been keeping the wages at the artificially low 400K :)
  - calvinbhai 8y ago
    first half starts to look like a troll comment, and it's probably too late for those down voting to realize the sarcasm which is apparent in the second half of your comment :D
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
Isn't compensation, even after adjusting for cost of living and health insurance, much lower in Canada than anywhere in the U.S.?
- microcolonel 8y ago
  Yes, though some of that could be a matter of a lack of companies which generate enough market confidence to employ people at the same rates. Even at Shopify or the skunkworks (software architect team) of a major Canadian bank, you're still not going to be compensated at nearly the going U.S. rate.
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  That doesn't particularly matter when you can't get or retain a visa to work in the US. Maybe salaries in those places will increase as a result.
  - sgroppino 8y ago
    It will be interesting to see if this is true, or whether they will go down and the local workforce will be negatively impacted as a result. Conversely, it will be interesting to see whether salaries for US techies will go up, or older people will have more opportunities. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
    - bdamm 8y ago
      Interest in offshore talent will go up. The US is lagging in education and can't fulfill the need for cost effective talent. The benefit of developers being in the US is not much of a benefit globally.
  - briandear 8y ago
    Why would salaries increase? If anything, they would drop due to increased supply.
    - CydeWeys 8y ago
CodeSheikh 8y ago
While many in the comments are throwing salary/cost of living/taxes numbers left and right but no one is making a case for extreme winters in Canada vs the Bay Area. I can understand that it might not mean a lot to some but for me it can be a deal breaker.
- dubya123 8y ago
  Hmm yeah hard winters or having your spouse deported. Hard choice.
  - CodeSheikh 8y ago
    Yes it is a huge socio-economic issue but I was referring only to economic part of it. No one would ever want to be separated from their family.
  - GhostVII 8y ago
    I feel like the number of tech people who legitimately worry about their spouse being deported is extremely small. And it's only two years until the next election anyways.
    - puranjay 8y ago
      > And it's only two years until the next election anyways. At this point with 50% approval rating, I doubt you'll see an incumbent lose 2020
      - sudopratt 8y ago
        Not sure you are looking at the right source but have not seen an approval rating that high on any polls.
        briandear 8y ago
        http://m.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/political_updates/prez_track_oct08 http://m.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/politi...
manicksurya 8y ago
is there something which all the h1b holders together can do?
paxy 8y ago
Sounds accurate. There is no realistic path to citizenship or even permanent residency in the USA for highly skilled immigrants from India. While the high salaries and quality of life are attractive for someone straight out of college, you quickly realize that this isn't the place to be if you want to buy a house, start a family, or make any other major life decision when you could be asked to pack up and leave tomorrow for any or no reason.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  That sounds great. Come to USA after college, make a million dollars in a few years, move back home, get married, and build the Indian economy. You don't want a country where every who has the ability will leave.
  - phakding 8y ago
    > That sounds great. Come to USA after college, make a million dollars in a few years, move back home, get married, and build the Indian economy LOL. Your comment doesn't even pass smell taste. How many people working as developers will make million dollars in few years after paying payroll taxes? Federal, state, social security, medicare on top of paying for housing, car insurance, health insurance, renter/house owner's insurance, trips back to homeland etc etc. Forget about fun and entertainment, or clothes, shoes, phones, computers, internet etc. Even with extreme level of penny pinching, 40% rate of saving is almost unachievable. Now assuming every single immigrant that comes here after college makes $150 right off the bat, that $60K in bank every year. At that rate, to save million dollars, one would need 16.66 years. That too assuming there are no incidentals that become money pits. Good luck getting married at almost 40 or getting uprooted and having to adjust to the different work environment or progress in the industry without any contacts. It's not all puppys and rainbows.
    - sheepmullet 8y ago
      > Even with extreme level of penny pinching, 40% rate of saving is almost unachievable. Hah that’s a wealthy American point of view. When I first moved to the US I was saving 85% of my after tax income. Most (non-scam) Indian H1B holders I know are saving 6 figures a year.
RegicidalManiac 8y ago
My sister went to Germany for her masters. She was an exceptional mechanical engineer with several awards and tier-1 research papers. If no path to citizenship it was pointless to invest your life in a country that does not welcome you.
param 8y ago
>> seemingly socially regressive and anti-science policies Both dems and repubs are anti-science. They are just anti science on different topics. So, don't feel bad about this administration. Topics Repubs Hate/haven't articulated their position well: * Evolution (have given up on the battle) * Abortion (have a valid position but haven't explained it well) * Stem cell research * Marijuana and other drugs (Trump is ok with legalization though) Anti-science dem positions: * Support for Paris accord even though experts said it was useless * People can change who they are on a whim but can't change who they like (Trans vs gays) * Abortion (Yes, they ignore science on this too)
- mywittyname 8y ago
  I'm genuinely curious who these experts are that claim that the Paris Accord is useless and why they assert such a claim. Seeing as it was put together with the consultation of hundreds of scientist from all over the world who've spent their career studying climate change, I'm guessing the objections come from political experts, not scientific ones.
  - param 8y ago
    Just do a google search. Even the UN admits it was a fraud: https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/the-un-admits-that-the-paris-climate-deal-was-a-fraud/ https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/the-un-admits-...
    - mywittyname 8y ago
      I wanted to hear directly from you, rather than guess at what you may be referencing. The argument being made there is that the Paris Accord doesn't go far enough. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't give it our best shot. We have to remember that the Paris Accord is basically the minimum that we should strive for and that we have to keep in mind the politics -- if we push too hard then people may just give up.
      - param 8y ago
saudioger 8y ago
I know multiple people who've even started turning down invites to visit the US (for conferences) because of the current administration... I think part of is fear of what _could_ happen under Trump even more so than what's happened so far.
gyani95 8y ago
The UK is an amazing place as well if you are looking for tech jobs outside of Asia. Almost all major companies have offices her plus a decent startup scene.
- otalp 8y ago
  It's also nearly impossible to permanently migrate to
  - thewarrior 8y ago
    Why’s that ? Asking as someone on a tier 2 visa ? I thought I could get a residency in 5 years ? Or are you saying the visa itself is too hard to get ?
  - mFixman 8y ago
    You can get permanent residency after living for 5 years, and citizenship a year after that.
- hocuspocus 8y ago
  While the tech scene is indeed very strong in some fields (like FinTech), it's also been bleeding since the Brexit vote, and the situation is certainly not going to improve any time soon. On the other hand, I guess that might mean more opportunities for non-EU immigrants?
  - walshemj 8y ago
    That's what some of the pro Brexit mp's were saying - well actually lying - to try and get some typically labour communities to vote Brexit.
bitL 8y ago
Dunno. Salary in Silicon Valley - $300k. Salary in Vancouver - $80k. Rent almost the same. Weather in Silicon Valley - year-round sunny. Weather in Vancouver - 2 months of sun, rest gloomy. Are you sure you want to move to Canada? It used to be that MS/AMZN had a back up base in Vancouver for anyone who didn't make the cut with H1B/O-1.
- mainliningfbs 8y ago
  Why would you move to second world country that is sliding the wrong way? Why not move a first world country that is safe and cares about its citizens?
- MAGZine 8y ago
  your salary numbers seem a little off, and, at least in sf rent numbers are not the same. compare new 1bdrm apts between sf and yvr and you'll see. amazon/microsoft just regularly employs people in YVR, not just for L1 purposes. they've been causing salaries (and rents) to rise. anyhow, you're discounting a lot of things about Vancouver because you make a little more and the weather is a little sunnier.
  - bitL 8y ago
    I spent some time in Vancouver, I can compare. And people are extremely upset about rent hike, not sure why would anyone want to go there at the moment to be honest. The same happening in Toronto and Montreal AFAIK.
    - MAGZine 8y ago
      i also spent some time in vancouver. amazon has pulled up salaries across the area since expanding there a couple years ago.
- aprdm 8y ago
  Why are you comparing an extreme high salary in SF to an average salary in Vancouver?
jorblumesea 8y ago
I wonder how much of this is just the political winds. Under the George Bush days there were similar sentiments and attitudes, but it never went anywhere and SV still remained dominant. Canada has long tried to capitalize on the US political situation with mixed results. Salaries are low, most of Canada has poor weather and unaffordable housing prices in the major cities. I guess if you're willing to stick it out you get citizenship, but a far less valuable citizenship compared to other western countries. I'm also curious as to if and when the immigration situation is going to hit Canadian politics as it did in the US. The facade of being pro immigration is exactly that, there are just as many racists in Canada as there are in the US.
- adventured 8y ago
  The US hands out one million green cards per year. There has not been a meaningful reduction in how much immigration is allowed into the US nor in how many green cards are issued. You'll notice something entirely missing from the article: there are no actual figures supporting its claims anywhere to be found, only a few individual anecdotes. What's happening is Canada is trying to become more aggressive in the pursuit of tech immigrants that are tired of waiting for US citizenship. It's a sensible plan on their part, and the US can afford the loss. The US isn't suffering from a tech employee deficit, despite the propaganda out of the big tech companies that want cheaper labor. The tech giants are all generating obscene profits, and they can all afford to pay very high salaries. Microsoft + Google + Facebook + Amazon + Intel + Apple = ~$165 billion in likely 2019 profit. Excuse me while I cry over their labor costs. The Trump Admin + Republican Congress have barely changed anything in relation to immigration. The major immigration legislation speaks for itself: there hasn't been any. And the Democrats are about to take back to the House. The biggest complaint you'll see, is that there's a long wait time, which illustrates the extreme demand for US citizenship, as the rate of green card issuance hasn't declined.
  - jorblumesea 8y ago
    Right, it's an optics problem. Trump gets in office and suddenly everyone starts seeing old issues in a new light. But as you pointed out, almost nothing has changed. Ends up US citizenship is in real demand. It's also not a surprise that two of the most back logged nationalities, China and India, have the most populous countries.
aprdm 8y ago
As a software engineer who wanted to leave my country I read how H-1B worked and removed US from my list of wanted countries. I am a PR in Canada and got it after have worked here for 1 year. I have friends who worked with me at previous company in the US division living in fear of getting their lives taken away from them if the company fires them and they are in a huge waiting list for green card (mostly Indian and Chinese) and don't want to change jobs because of fear.
- calvinbhai 8y ago
  You took the best decision. It's not worth even a million dollars per year, if living in the US means bonded labor. The amount of stress that comes along with it is mind numbing.
mabbo 8y ago
As an Amazon employee, I really hope this factors in highly in the HQ2 decision. Toronto isn't perfect and the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax breaks, but if Amazon wants to hire 50,000 more tech workers then they'd better be doing so in a country that will let those 50,000 people work.
- NTDF9 8y ago
  > As an Amazon employee, I really hope this factors in highly in the HQ2 decision. Seems like a natural hedge against anti-tech, anti-modern US establishment.
- jorblumesea 8y ago
  Most likely candidate for HQ2 is DC. Bezo just built a mansion there and he needs political cover from both sides of the aisle. His problems are mostly political now and he's a Libertarian with a capital L. Canada is too socialist and taxes are too high.
- hocuspocus 8y ago
  I always believed that Toronto is a serious contender for the same reasons. > the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax breaks Does it matter that much, though? As an insider you probably know better than me, but I assume that the lower cost of employment per head in Toronto would easily offset any kind of tax break.
  - mabbo 8y ago
    I tell everyone the same thing: I don't know any specific details more than anyone else. But what I do know is how Amazon operates and makes decisions: via data, not feelings. My guess is that there are two teams. One has spent the last few years (long before the HQ2 announcement) building an incredible formula that estimates the expected return over the next 25 years for opening HQ2 in a given city, given these 100+ variables. The second team is collecting those 100+ variables for each city, maybe making analyses on cities to make better estimates on what those numbers look like. The decision will then boil down to the city with the highest number popping out of the formula. That's what I would expect from Amazon at least. I have no actual knowledge of what the process really is. Then again, after the Fire Phone fiasco it's clear not all of Amazon's decisions are made this way.
dilippkumar 8y ago
As someone who is contemplating this move, I can share some thoughts. First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into the US, Canada etc. Among the people I know and including myself, the top driving forces are safety, good governance, clean air and water. While living in the US has the benefit of higher pay, it comes at a significant cost. Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider “day trading” etc. It’s true that all of these have a common theme that they all generate some sort of income. However, for most of us, the income isn’t the driving force. All of us have a drive to express ourselves creatively and do fun things once in a while (mine dogecoin), the implications of the current green card wait is that we can’t participate in any of these for decades. Canada is very appealing because of the hassle free immigration process. Once in Canada, there is liberty to pursue hobbies. These come with benefits of safety, good governance and clean air/water. The lower pay is a very minor price for getting all of this.
- jarsin 8y ago
  OMG you can't mine dogecoin? GTFO. Impeach Trump!
- pshc 8y ago
  re: crypto mining, that’s funny. I thought a passive activity like crypto mining is allowed as long as one doesn’t actively “work” on it. Maybe the NAFTA/USMCA rules are different?
  - bdcravens 8y ago
    Mining is one thing, selling for a profit is where I think you run afoul. (IANAL)
    - arcticbull 8y ago
      That’s just investment income afaik. Pretty sure this is okay so long as you’re not day trading.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
olivierlacan 8y ago
I'm curious if anybody here has quality data for USCIS' processing speed on H-1B and other work-based immigration visas. USCIS provides [aggregate statistics for previous years and quarters](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-studies/immigration-forms-data/data-set-all-uscis-application-and-petition-form-types https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-studies/immigration-form...) but it's very difficult to isolate that data to a specific form type (for example I-129 for H-1B). Common known resources like http://visadoor.com http://visadoor.com and https://www.visajourney.com/content/times/ https://www.visajourney.com/content/times/ have incredibly low quality, out of date, or just plain insufficient to get any idea for: - how many I-129 forms were received and processed by each of the USCIS service centers (California, Nebraska, Vermont) that handle them? - how many of those forms already resulted in denials, approvals, or requests for evidence? - what is the throughput of each USCIS service centers? Does anyone know where such information is available from a public or private source? It seems clear that the California service center is completely overwhelmed this year with an ever-growing processing window (from the date of receipt notice, not even the date of first submission to USCIS) that has now reached 6.5 to 8.5 months to process I-129 petitions for a Nonimmigrant Worker (see https://egov.uscis.gov/processing-times/ https://egov.uscis.gov/processing-times/). This means that if an H-1B petitioner received an offer from a U.S.-based company, applied with said company in early April 2018, got through the 1 in 5 lottery odds and received notice from USCIS a few weeks later in May 2018, it's very likely they won't be able to start working until November or January 2019. Nearly a full year after initiating the process with their prospective employer. Assuming said employer was able to hold the position open for a full year. I'm of course ignoring the time it would take after receiving USCIS approval for the I-129/H-1B petition to schedule an embassy interview in one's home country, send the passeport for visa stamping, and relocate to the U.S. Which could easily add another month to the ordeal. Comparatively the Nebraska service center has a processing window of 2 to 4 months, and the Vermont service center 4 to 6 months but I suspect these centers can only handle a fraction of the cases the California service center can. I've seen mentions on Twitter of case transfers from one service center to another but nothing USCIS announced publicly, meaning there is no way for a petitioner to know where their case is actually being processed. More importantly, it's virtually impossible to tell wether how deep someone is in the processing queue, which could lead someone to withdraw and apply to another work visa (like O-1). Let's not even talk about the case where one would consider a new employer while in the U.S. under an existing H-1B since the processing time appear to be just as lengthy. USCIS has also proudly canceled its usual premium processing fees for the stated purpose of "resorbing the backlog" (so far, unsuccessfully) until at least January 2019 which means even if your company needs you to start earlier and is willing to pay the price to expedite the process, they can't. So not only are you stuck waiting to work with a prospective employer for upwards of a year (or more) but then it will take (an already approved nonimmigrant worker) another 6.5 to 8.9 months (or more) to be able to start working at another company. People throw around phrases like "indentured servitude" far too easily for my taste, but just imagine having to wait a year to start a new job you've already applied to and signed an offer for, losing opportunities for raises, experience, networking, and advancement in the process. All the while knowing that you'll be essentially stuck in the job unless you're lucky enough to find another company willing to sponsor you again, wait for the lengthy transfer, and hopefully not be let go by your current employer (and unique provider of the right to remain in the country) in the meantime.
csomar 8y ago
Is it really true, however? Or my experience is an outlier? I have been issued a 10 year tourism/business visa to the USA. The interviewer asked me a couple questions and then said "Your visa is approved". She didn't ask for any paper work. No kidding. I got the interview booked, interview and the visa/passport in the same week. The process was flawless and the employees very friendly. I know a few others in my social circle who setup shop in the US when they wanted to move there. None of them complained about the "waiting time" but there were complaints about the costs and legal expenses to process visas/green cards. So is it really that bad in the US? Because as far as it is now for me this is way better than Europe. Also no other country has a green card lottery where they arbitrarily give 55k random citizens a Green Card. I have been applying to the Green Card lottery for around 10 years. I almost thought this will be their rejection reason for my visa. I think the US gets lots of hate but so far is the best country of the bunch. I might be wrong but will be doing more business and lots of travel to the US so it will either confirm my bias or reverse it.
- otto2 8y ago
  Your visa is essentially a visitor visa. You are not authorized to work in USA - you can visit for business while being paid by foreign entity. It is very different from H1B visa that is tied to a specific employer.
  - h1srf 8y ago
    And on a tourist visa, you are not supposed to be looking for a job.
  - csomar 8y ago
    I understand that. But my point is that the process was way easier, faster and better than most European countries, Canada or the UK. For the same type of visa.
    - zaptheimpaler 8y ago
      Getting a green card or citizenship is much much harder in the US than Canada. It may very well be easier to get a tourist visa, but that doesn't mean anything in the context of green cards.
timewarrior 8y ago
I just moved out of US and in process of moving to Canada. Just for background: Worked in leadership roles for startups and Fortune 15 companies, sold a company to Dropbox, advise/invest in bunch of startups. My life's goal is contribute to curing/diagnosing Cancer using technology. Everything I did in the past 14 years has been towards meeting that goal. I figured, I would need knowledge, network, and financial stability. I moved to US in 2011 and over 14 years I achieved all of these. However, after moving to US I realized that I lost the most critical piece: ability to work on this goal without significant restrictions. Visas like H1/O1 have lot of restrictions on what you can work. Recently it has become extremely difficult for early stage startups to get H1, especially if the applicant owns significant equity. Once you get invested and comfortable in a place, you stay put. I worked really hard to break this ceiling. I tried for EB-1 Green Card twice and got rejected both times. You need 3 out of 10 criteria for Green Card. Over 2 petitions and an appeal - separate USCIS officials gave me 4 criteria. But none of them gave me 3, and their responses were very hostile. I had to deal with H1/O1 petition every year while I pursued my entrepreneurship goals. However, I am finally done with this and can't do it anymore. I think I also have PTSD because of my experience dealing with immigration. I could not work to my potential, missed family events because I couldn't travel and stayed in limbo for too long. However, finally I have moved out of US. I want to pursue my goal to attack Cancer without any employment restrictions. At this point, Canada seems like the best place for this and that is where I am moving. I am originally from India, and as mentioned in a few other posts, I do not want to live there because of quality of life challenges. I will write more detailed posts sometime next year detailing my experience. However in summary my advise is: If you are from India, come to US only if you internalize that you are in a temporary situation with a set goal: make more money/learn/build network. Don't get too invested, because you might need to leave at short notice. If you are an entrepreneur, you would be spending the best years of your life, without being able to perform to your potential due to immigration related bureaucracy. India, currently, has great opportunities for Entrepreneurs. I was lucky to be able to found a company on H1, sell it and work at a few great companies. Still it wasn't enough to make it here.
- sizzle 8y ago
  Just wanted to thank you for pursuing such a noble cause. We need more people like you putting their time, energy, resources, and brains towards solving real hard problems in society, such as access to affordable (mental) healthcare, affordable housing, climate change, and ethical ML/AI systems. Keep up the good fight friend, you'll be an asset to any country lucky enough to call you their citizen.
jiveturkey 8y ago
https://outline.com/a3szHf https://outline.com/a3szHf
hourislate 8y ago
This is going to be unpopular but Canadian Ex pat here, If you're ok with making 1/3 the money you'd make in the US, have 1/10th the opportunity, put up with really expensive living conditions and really awful weather, Canada is the place for you.... I left and never looked back. It just doesn't make any sense to even consider returning. Many of my friends have fled to the US because of the incredibly high taxes, sub standard medical care, high cost of living, etc for NYC, DFW, CA, NC, etc. For H1B types coming from a 3rd world country it would probably feel like heaven but for regular folks the statistics prove otherwise, Canadians are leaving or would like to leave to work in the USA. Just saying...
pteredactyl 8y ago
I generally believe we should try harder to educate and hire Americans. I am not against immigrants or H1B holders. Or anyone trying to improve their lot in life. I am against the position H1B holders are in. And the effects it can have on a culture. Especially with the force multiplier of technology. They are basically indentured servants. And therefore more likely to do whatever their boss wants, including morally suspect things. Like buy and sell American's privacy. Speak out or resist? You'll need to on a plane out of the country in 6 days. I'm not saying this is a product of a particular race/ethnicity/identity. The moral suspectness. But rather the product of the position. Most everyone in that position would behave in similar ways to keep their position. Sometimes at all cost. Don't get it twisted. So to me, the reasonable options are to either cut back on the program, or give H1B holders more rights.
- tabtab 8y ago
  Companies don't want to train: they want Instant Workers. Often they want combinations of skills that are unlikely to be had by any one individual. They want version X of the database, vendor Y of the IDE, vendor Z of the network, etc. Shopping the world increases the chances of fitting their desired skill combo via shere probability; it has almost nothing to do with training. Think about it.
  - pteredactyl 8y ago
    I agree. And for the companies it makes sense to not want to train. I'm saying the onus is not on them. But on the US education system. K-12 and beyond.
    - tabtab 8y ago
      That won't work either for the "combo-hunting" problem. One cannot predict specific company combos ahead of time when in school. Plus, companies want practical experience, not classwork experience. I'm at a loss for an easy to way to explain the "combo problem" at the moment.
      - 8y ago
t1o5 8y ago
This news has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Not everyone moves to Canada after they get a residency thru the Express Entry system. The majority of them do something called "soft landing" to activate their permanent resident card and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a plan B if something happens with their greencard process in future. This is actually detrimental for other eligible people who have applied for express entry because H1Bs fill the top layers of the express entry system and thus the permanent residence permits go wasted because H1Bs don't come to stay in Canada. Québec is an exception here and do not follow merit based system. So the immigrants coming in Québec are not skilled or employable and is a burden to Canadians. On the other hand, skilled applicants in Québec are waiting 4-5 years for a permit from Québec because Quebec do not follow merit system. The new CAQ leader is also against immigration and has vowed to cut down immigration. So any startups planning to have an office should be aware of this. Québec IT employers are struggling to find talents because of the dysfunctional immigration department of Québec. Now the highly regarded global talent stream is only applicable to large employers. Startups still have to go the hard way. Getting an LMIA work permit will take 3-6 months and renewing it will also take the same amount of time. Overall, Canada's Express Entry system is a merit based system. But the candidates do not need to prove their technical skills. Anyone with a Bachleor's degree, a good command of English and 3 years of work experience can get a residency in Canada. This doesn't necessarily mean there is talent. Moreover, a talented international worker might travel to many countries, so if you are an applicant who have travelled to many countries, 6 months express entry time do not apply, Canada will put you thru something called Security Screening which can last 1 to 2 years. So the 6 months timeline are for people who haven't travelled a lot or worked at many countries. It's just for a less experienced Bachelor degree holder with a good command of English. Do not come to Canada for the money, salaries are not that great. Toronto and Vancouver housing prices are pumped up thanks to Quebec's money for citizenship scheme. Québec immigration is dysfunctional, so good luck finding talents in Montreal for your startup.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  > The majority of them do something called "soft landing" to activate their permanent resident card and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a plan B if something happens with their greencard process in future. This only buys a maximum of 3 years of insurance (from date of landing). After that, unless you're living with a Canadian citizen spouse, you'll lose PR unless you move to Canada.
calvinbhai 8y ago
I'm in my 30's, spent > 1/3rd of my life in the US. Got a Masters degree before Obama was elected. Slogged enough, made enough personal sacrifices to achieve what I have. An employer who hired me based on a promise of EB greencard. Employer screwed me at last moment by giving a lame excuse as to why the GC process stalled. In the mean time, had saved up enough to put 20% down on a 500K+ home in N.E. US. Had almost paid the booking fee. But wife's employer started giving the deaf ear treatment when following up on the GC. Now, we are all set to move to Canada in a month or two. Once we find jobs for our respective fields (both are in good, in-demand tech jobs) we'll say good bye to years of bonded labor and living in uncertainty. So we will finally buy a house in a country which we can call home, without ever thinking of being 'hopeless 3rd class residents of a country with no hopes of citizenship'. (I hope the Americans who can vote, will work towards fixing this system)
- digianarchist 8y ago
  In Canada you’ll likely have citizenship in 3-4 years. It’s very straight forward.
  - calvinbhai 8y ago
    very true. That's the icing on the cake. After 4 years, no one in the family needs to bother about visa, visa interview, stamping, stamp expiry, renewal of visa and a zillion other things.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  I'm in a similar spot, late 20s, spent the better part of a decade in the US. I'm back for a couple more years on a TN but recently I went from wanting a green card to wanting to go back home to Canada. The plan right now, subject to change, is to do one more tour of duty here, save up, network, invest, then pack it on up and start a company when I get back. In the process of buying property in Canada.
- Latteland 8y ago
  I am an american, and I'm sick about what is happening. We are going to see a real brain drain. In the top end tech market at least, there's a massive shortage of people who can do bespoke software. Seattle has endless job opportunities.
nimbius 8y ago
glad to see tech workers are getting the same benefit we've had in the skilled trade industty for nearly 40 years. I'm a master level certified diesel mechanic, and the immigration group I qualify for is nearly instantaneous as well. Saskatoon province mining jobs pay about 4x what i make currently in the states. If you're a long haul truck driver, welder, pipefitter or plumber, the biggest hurtle to getting into canada is picking which canadian beer you like to drink after a days work.
sublupo 8y ago
This sounds weird but I've wondered something. Since California is a sanctuary state, can't workers come over with H1B and then simply not leave when the Visa expires?
- timewarrior 8y ago
  I would not recommend this. Couple of issues: 1. You might want to visit your family in home country. How do you enter back. 2. CBP can put a border check point anywhere 100 miles from a border. Which covers most of California (land and sea border) including SF. If you get caught in one, your would be arrested and deported. 3. If you overstay for more than 6 months you are banned from US for 3 years. If you overstay for more than 1 year, you are banned from entering US for 10 years. 4. Government knows that you are overstaying. They can also easily find out about your bank accounts, health insurance, doctor visits, kids going to school. They could apprehend you if they want to. It could start by sending you a NTA (Notice to Appear). Once you get an NTA, you can't even leave the country on your own terms without triggering a re-entry bar. 5. Most good employers won't give you a job without a work authorization. Sadly, what you had suggested has been the life story of all the undocumented workers in US. And it is really tough. I know H1-B has it bad, but it is nothing compared to what the undocumented workers have been going through. When you live in the shadows and under fear of law enforcement for a big part of your life, it can mess up with your mental health. I wish there is a good outcome for them. Unfortunately the low skilled undocumented workers don't have much options in life. But I am not sure why someone who is educated and skilled, would subject themselves to such a life. Just go somewhere else!
  - sublupo 8y ago
    Thank you for that information
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Since California is a sanctuary state, can't workers come over with H1B and then simply not leave when the Visa expires? No. “Sanctuary state” means state resources (including state personnel time) aren't being used to actively aid federal immigration authorities, it doesn't mean federal immigration laws are nullified or that you won't be deported out face other federal law consequences in the case you describe.
madmax108 8y ago
One of my friends recently got his Permanent Residency from Canada for a job he has just gotten there. What is the difference between a PR and citizenship? Is there any difference in what the country owes the individual or vice versa in either?
- to_bpr 8y ago
  You can't vote in Canada unless you've citizenship. You've to be physically present in Canada 3 years of every five to retain PR, not so with citizenship.
beerlord 8y ago
Australia has already shown the way for Canada: Mass-immigration of people with dubious qualifications, as long as they work cheap. Resultant huge downward pressure on wages, particularly in IT. Companies throw bodies at problems instead of innovating or designing projects and systems carefully and smartly. The mass influx of people then puts pressure on housing and public services, but juices the economy through the extra consumption of extra people. Meanwhile socially, the migrants are predominantly males, with poor attitudes towards women, and backwards practices such as female foeticide. Soon inner-city work and social areas become gender-imbalanced: dominated by Indian men. Businesses then put into practice gender-selective hiring and promotion which harms all men, including locals. All of this might very well work if the male ratio of visas per country of origin was capped to 50% in the first place. If Canada wants to pursue a Parliamentary gender quota, why not start with an immigration gender quota? Be careful, Canadians.
mitul_45 8y ago
I'm an Indian living in Amsterdam just because of these immigration rules. My spouse is an Architect and she won't be able to work in the US due to H4 rules and in Canada because they don't accept the academic credentials for her foreign university. I find Europe a little better option in that regard.
known 8y ago
Since India is the most racist country in the world many qualified/talented people are leaving it. https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/ https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-ra... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo...

304 points by muzz 8y ago

Canada/Australia have thriving scene, but somehow the number of jobs is really low. There was a nice discussion on reddit about brain drain to Australia/Canada. https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/9l1pug/which_country_has_a_thriving_tech_scene_for_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/9l1pug/w... https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/9l3ueo/which_country_has_a_thriving_tech_scene_for_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/9l3ueo/which_coun...

vthallam 8y ago
Usually, jobs follow. Big companies already use Canada as a bench for foreign workers who couldn't get the H1-B through lottery. In the last couple months, I heard 2 big announcements, Microsoft establishing their Canada HQ[0] in Toronto, Uber [1] is investing big time. [0] - https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/microsoft-canadian-headquarters_a_23524349/ https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/microsoft-canadian-... [1] - https://techvibes.com/2018/09/13/uber-expands-canadian-presence-with-200-million-investment https://techvibes.com/2018/09/13/uber-expands-canadian-prese... [2] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-beats-bay-area-in-new-tech-jobs-and-new-york-in-talent https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-b...
- qaq 8y ago
  Yep my friend in Ukraine got an offer from one of US tech giants the process is if they can't secure H1B they just move people to Canada.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
I can't comment on the tech scene in Melbourne, as I don't really participate in it outside of work, but there are plenty of jobs here. It took me less than 2 weeks to find a job as a Ruby on Rails developer here in Melbourne. The comments bagging on Australia seem like the classic self-denigrating comments that Aussies love to make about themselves.
adriand 8y ago
'Toronto’s tech scene is so hot the city created more jobs than the San Francisco Bay area, Seattle and Washington, D.C., combined last year, while leapfrogging New York in a ranking of “talent markets."' https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-beats-bay-area-in-new-tech-jobs-and-new-york-in-talent https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-b...
jpatokal 8y ago
You won't have any trouble finding IT jobs in the big cities. But ironically enough, the difficulty of getting a visa in Australia has also been ratcheted up recently, meaning that many employers who would love to hire can't sponsor the visa...

NTDF9 8y ago

I don't think US realizes that Canada and Australia are actively poaching talent. These guys work there for a couple of years, some of them start startups, businesses. They hire other top people (both local and talented immigrants). Then they sell their products/services to the whole world! Major companies get attracted to areas with talent. That's why so so many companies have major offices in India now. Because of the pool of talent. Not just because of cost-cutting. An example is: If Amazon doesn't hire enough smart people, they won't be able to expand/move nimbly and will get beaten by Flipkart in India (who have their own empire desires).

hosh 8y ago

Hmm. And let's see. One of the world's top research for AI is in Canada ...

screye 8y ago
Yep, Montreal is slowly becoming an AI hub. Microsoft has already opened their AI research branch in Montreal. Google Brain is in Montreal too. I can see it becoming a more popular spot as time goes on.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

zeroxfe 8y ago

As horrible as it sounds, in this specific respect, the current US administration has been really fantastic for Canada. More and more new grads are choosing to stay in the country and work with local tech companies, and we're experiencing a reverse brain-drain like never before.

b1tr0t 8y ago
From a Canadian viewpoint, the last couple of years of populism has been a bit like discovering your favorite Uncle has a probably lethal opiate addiction. But, you're going to get to inherit his Corvette.
- timewarrior 8y ago
  Hi, can you please clarify this. I didn't get the context. I am planning to move to Canada and would love to get multiple view points.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  Man, too close to home.
- emptybits 8y ago
  Canadian here also. I like your analogy. Opiates don't stop at national or socio-economic boundaries. So a prediction I hope I'm wrong about: We temporarily enjoy driving the bully uncle's Corvette but soon find ourselves chasing the same dragon in it.
- gruez 8y ago
  >your favorite Uncle has a probably lethal opiate addiction. are you talking about the crack smoking mayor?
- a3n 8y ago
  Cool, but he's not maintaining the Corvette, he's running it into the ground.
domador 8y ago

echan00 8y ago

True story, I know of many skilled folks who moved to Canada because residency in the U.S was just too painful.

chocolatebunny 8y ago
For what it's worth, I know many skilled folks (myself included) who moved from Canada to the US because there are more job prospects with significantly higher pay. I hope all these people make Canada more competitive since I'd like to move back at some point but right now, the US is more cost effective if you can get in.
- echan00 8y ago
  Yes, that is also true. Its why I'm still in the Bay Area.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 8y ago

Are people with GCs screwed too? I've been postponing getting a citizenship, for no particular reason, but I'm now wondering if I should get on that just so that I don't somehow get bounced out of the country or get locked outside when I travel.

echan00 8y ago
As a Canadian (in the Bay Area) today, getting bounced out of the U.S is always at the back of my mind.
techsupporter 8y ago
A friend of mine tells me that one of his biggest regrets from the past handful of years is not having applied for and received citizenship when President Obama was president. He has a misdemeanor (for something that almost every US citizen would consider trivial) from when he was a teenager but because of when it happened and what it is, naturalizing would require a waiver from USCIS in order to proceed (and to not be deported). President Obama's USCIS granted waivers for conduct so many years back almost as a matter of course. President Trump's USCIS--according to the two immigration lawyers my friend has consulted--has not only stopped granting the waivers, they refer applicants for the waivers instead to deportation proceedings. There's no one to advocate for people like him to be able to remain because he is a convicted criminal, even just of a minor offence, so he's been told to keep his head down and hope nobody investigates the dusty files. But, assuming you are "clean," there are people to advocate for you so applying for citizenship should be a safe bet and would get you the guarantee of remaining in and traveling to and from the US for the rest of your life. If you intend to live here for the foreseeable future, I'd recommend giving it a go lest this administration decide to start trying to arbitrarily yank GCs.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 8y ago
  Are there any downsides to getting one, outside of perhaps having to let go of one's other citizenships for countries that don't allow it?

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago

> As the administration of President Donald Trump has increased scrutiny of H-1B visas Has it? All that has been done is a study of potential H-1B reforms that is still under way. I'd bet that nothing changes in the next two years. The puppet masters wouldn't want it any other way.

neofrommatrix 8y ago
Unfortunately, it has. The process is now more opaque, and it’s taking longer to get an approval. The number of requests for evidence has increased by close to 40%. There seems to be a deliberate attempt to frustrate legal immigrants out of the US, or at least, it feels like it. This is anecdotal, but I personally know 4 families that threw in the towel and moved to Canada. So, yes, in terms of policy, nothing’s changed, but they have increased the overall level of frustration. On top of that, this has scared off a lot of companies from even looking at H1-Bs while hiring.
- singhrk 8y ago
  Second that. I am a legal immigrant. Been in US for 5+yrs. Work in a FAANG company. Have a valid work permit (h1b) till 2021. Came back to home country for stamping, now my case is in administrative processing for 4+ months. House/Job/Child Education, all impacted because of this.
  - vthallam 8y ago
    Sorry to hear that. Are you still in India waiting for your visa to be processed? Know the reason for administrative processing?
    - singhrk 8y ago
      yeah still here. No reason given. Reached out to customer service several times but no conclusive update on (a) why my case is in admin processing (b) how long will it take to get resolved (c) at what status is it currently. Its just a painful endless wait, which can get over in a few days or in worst case in more than a year

tick_tock_tick 8y ago

Canada's aggressively merit based immigration policy has clear advantages in terms of allowing talent in. That said Canadian tech firms still pay way too little.

GFischer 8y ago
Indeed, the reason I don't consider moving to Canada is that the areas where I'd like to live are too expensive and salaries too low for the high cost of living, mostly housing (I already can't purchase a house where I live but at least I can hope to, I'd be priced out even worse in Canada).
- refurb 8y ago
  Toronto and Vancouver housing prices aren't that much lower than the Bay area. However, it does look like the trend is downward in those two cities at the moment.
sbierwagen 8y ago
Some might draw a connection between Canada's open doors policy for skilled immigrants, and the low salaries paid.
- mywittyname 8y ago
  I don't think it's the primary reason. The Canadian tech sector doesn't make nearly as much money as their US counterpart does. The country has very few dedicated software companies, and none the caliber of the FAAMGs. For comparison, the largest software company in Canada by revenue earns $1.7B, Google is in the neighborhood of $120B a year. Google/Microsoft/Facebook/Apple/etc are each individually orders of magnitude larger than the entire Canadian software industry combined. Chances are, that most metro areas in the US have a technology company larger than the biggest Canadian tech companies. If Canada went from having a billion dollar tech sector to having a trillion dollar one, then salaries for engineers would explode.
  - 8y ago

otalp 8y ago

I suppose my comments from yesterdays thread about "Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atmosphere" is relevant: I did the math for Toronto(which is more expensive than Montreal, and about the same as Vancouver). For a typical software engineer, taxes take away 25% of gross pay in Ontario while it's over 30% in California and New York. Cost of living is much less(by 30-40% if you rent) in Toronto compared to Cali/New York. Of course, you will also earn 40% less in USD. So it about evens out. The site Hired.com came to similar conclusions that I've attached in an image below [2] To go into more detail, According to numbeo[1] which crowdsources data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) in Toronto, but of course the salary is more than 20% lower. But the real kicker is the rent, and while Toronto rent is definitely increasing, it is nowhere close to NYC of Silicon Valley levels, and most sources do say you have to pay 50% more for an equivalent apartment in NYC. Also according to my calculations from the data on numbeo, the equivalent of (pre-tax) $135,000 USD in NYC is $110,000 CAD in Toronto. It is of course easier to get 135k in NYC than 110k in Toronto, but the difference isn't nearly as big as the CAD/USD differences and wage gap makes it seem. And if you can get a job in the Waterloo-Kitchenner area, CoL of course plummets. Freelancing for clients in the US or working remotely also has great advantages. If you're a US citizen, I don't think Canada or Toronto is enticing enough to drag you away - especially with places like Seattle, Austin and Colorado being better than SV and NYC in terms of Salary:CoL. But if you're not, Canada is comfortably the second best company to be a software engineer in, and the expected expansion of Amazon, Google and Microsoft in Toronto is likely to create a lot more high paying jobs and new startups in the coming years, especially with the US's anti-immigration stance basically making it impossible for Indians and the Chinese to get permanent residency. The excellent universities and industry leading research in AI of UToronto and UWaterloo is a bonus if you're a student as well. [1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou.. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou.... [2] http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8fd629baac34d01d5dcb2af9c95973137e2bebefc917c29f35292b23b67c5.png http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8...

refurb 8y ago
data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) Why would you adjust for currency when you're paid in Canadian dollars?

sunstone 8y ago

Well Toronto is definitely cooler than California.

Bhilai 8y ago

I can attest to this. I have three friends who are preparing to migrate to Canada or Australia. Mind you, these are not the typical H1B workers from Infosys. These are smart legitimate people with a masters degree who work at top tech companies. They have no hopes to get a permanent residency in US because of long queues. Renewing H1B is a big hassle. Surely its a big change to pick up your life up and move to a different country but its probably for the good considering the current administration's anti-immigrant stand and seemingly socially regressive and anti-science policies. This issue has been coming to a head for a while now. My friends at Apple and Microsoft tell me that the immigration woes are picking up heat internally and related questions are making an appearance at internal Q/A with senior management (Tim Cook) so it remains to be seen if tech companies would be able influence any policies.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gnufied 8y ago
For first time ever I think - my Employer (again not an outsourcing firm) has started holding immigration Towh hall meetings for all employees on H1Bs. Its like getting called to principal office and you don't know why. The fear, uncertainty and doubt is very real among all immigrants afaict.
HumanDrivenDev 8y ago
I wish so badly I could trade places, as a conservative man stuck in a 'progressive' country with lower wages. Give me a great salary and Blumpffss 'regressive' US any day.
- sincerely 8y ago
  I mean...why can't you?
  - HumanDrivenDev 8y ago
    The same reason not every "I'm totally moving to canada/australia/new zealand/europe" liberal in the US can do so. Immigration laws.

dmode 8y ago

I am in the same boat. Planning to move to Canada next year. I have worked in the Valley for 10 years. Had a great time, but unfortunately the wait for GC is over 20 years now and the administration has signaled that we are not welcome (my H1 was denied for some BS reasons).

trhway 8y ago
I guess the people like you have been stealing good American jobs and depressing wages in the Bay Area, and that has been keeping the wages at the artificially low 400K :)
- calvinbhai 8y ago
  first half starts to look like a troll comment, and it's probably too late for those down voting to realize the sarcasm which is apparent in the second half of your comment :D

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

Isn't compensation, even after adjusting for cost of living and health insurance, much lower in Canada than anywhere in the U.S.?

microcolonel 8y ago
Yes, though some of that could be a matter of a lack of companies which generate enough market confidence to employ people at the same rates. Even at Shopify or the skunkworks (software architect team) of a major Canadian bank, you're still not going to be compensated at nearly the going U.S. rate.
CydeWeys 8y ago
That doesn't particularly matter when you can't get or retain a visa to work in the US. Maybe salaries in those places will increase as a result.
- sgroppino 8y ago
  It will be interesting to see if this is true, or whether they will go down and the local workforce will be negatively impacted as a result. Conversely, it will be interesting to see whether salaries for US techies will go up, or older people will have more opportunities. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
  - bdamm 8y ago
    Interest in offshore talent will go up. The US is lagging in education and can't fulfill the need for cost effective talent. The benefit of developers being in the US is not much of a benefit globally.
- briandear 8y ago
  Why would salaries increase? If anything, they would drop due to increased supply.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago

CodeSheikh 8y ago

While many in the comments are throwing salary/cost of living/taxes numbers left and right but no one is making a case for extreme winters in Canada vs the Bay Area. I can understand that it might not mean a lot to some but for me it can be a deal breaker.

dubya123 8y ago
Hmm yeah hard winters or having your spouse deported. Hard choice.
- CodeSheikh 8y ago
  Yes it is a huge socio-economic issue but I was referring only to economic part of it. No one would ever want to be separated from their family.
- GhostVII 8y ago
  I feel like the number of tech people who legitimately worry about their spouse being deported is extremely small. And it's only two years until the next election anyways.
  - puranjay 8y ago
    > And it's only two years until the next election anyways. At this point with 50% approval rating, I doubt you'll see an incumbent lose 2020
    - sudopratt 8y ago
      Not sure you are looking at the right source but have not seen an approval rating that high on any polls.
      - briandear 8y ago
        http://m.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/political_updates/prez_track_oct08 http://m.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/politi...

manicksurya 8y ago

is there something which all the h1b holders together can do?

paxy 8y ago

Sounds accurate. There is no realistic path to citizenship or even permanent residency in the USA for highly skilled immigrants from India. While the high salaries and quality of life are attractive for someone straight out of college, you quickly realize that this isn't the place to be if you want to buy a house, start a family, or make any other major life decision when you could be asked to pack up and leave tomorrow for any or no reason.

fjsolwmv 8y ago
That sounds great. Come to USA after college, make a million dollars in a few years, move back home, get married, and build the Indian economy. You don't want a country where every who has the ability will leave.
- phakding 8y ago
  > That sounds great. Come to USA after college, make a million dollars in a few years, move back home, get married, and build the Indian economy LOL. Your comment doesn't even pass smell taste. How many people working as developers will make million dollars in few years after paying payroll taxes? Federal, state, social security, medicare on top of paying for housing, car insurance, health insurance, renter/house owner's insurance, trips back to homeland etc etc. Forget about fun and entertainment, or clothes, shoes, phones, computers, internet etc. Even with extreme level of penny pinching, 40% rate of saving is almost unachievable. Now assuming every single immigrant that comes here after college makes $150 right off the bat, that $60K in bank every year. At that rate, to save million dollars, one would need 16.66 years. That too assuming there are no incidentals that become money pits. Good luck getting married at almost 40 or getting uprooted and having to adjust to the different work environment or progress in the industry without any contacts. It's not all puppys and rainbows.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    > Even with extreme level of penny pinching, 40% rate of saving is almost unachievable. Hah that’s a wealthy American point of view. When I first moved to the US I was saving 85% of my after tax income. Most (non-scam) Indian H1B holders I know are saving 6 figures a year.

RegicidalManiac 8y ago

My sister went to Germany for her masters. She was an exceptional mechanical engineer with several awards and tier-1 research papers. If no path to citizenship it was pointless to invest your life in a country that does not welcome you.

param 8y ago

>> seemingly socially regressive and anti-science policies Both dems and repubs are anti-science. They are just anti science on different topics. So, don't feel bad about this administration. Topics Repubs Hate/haven't articulated their position well: * Evolution (have given up on the battle) * Abortion (have a valid position but haven't explained it well) * Stem cell research * Marijuana and other drugs (Trump is ok with legalization though) Anti-science dem positions: * Support for Paris accord even though experts said it was useless * People can change who they are on a whim but can't change who they like (Trans vs gays) * Abortion (Yes, they ignore science on this too)

mywittyname 8y ago
I'm genuinely curious who these experts are that claim that the Paris Accord is useless and why they assert such a claim. Seeing as it was put together with the consultation of hundreds of scientist from all over the world who've spent their career studying climate change, I'm guessing the objections come from political experts, not scientific ones.
- param 8y ago
  Just do a google search. Even the UN admits it was a fraud: https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/the-un-admits-that-the-paris-climate-deal-was-a-fraud/ https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/the-un-admits-...
  - mywittyname 8y ago
    I wanted to hear directly from you, rather than guess at what you may be referencing. The argument being made there is that the Paris Accord doesn't go far enough. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't give it our best shot. We have to remember that the Paris Accord is basically the minimum that we should strive for and that we have to keep in mind the politics -- if we push too hard then people may just give up.
    - param 8y ago

saudioger 8y ago

I know multiple people who've even started turning down invites to visit the US (for conferences) because of the current administration... I think part of is fear of what _could_ happen under Trump even more so than what's happened so far.

gyani95 8y ago

The UK is an amazing place as well if you are looking for tech jobs outside of Asia. Almost all major companies have offices her plus a decent startup scene.

otalp 8y ago
It's also nearly impossible to permanently migrate to
- thewarrior 8y ago
  Why’s that ? Asking as someone on a tier 2 visa ? I thought I could get a residency in 5 years ? Or are you saying the visa itself is too hard to get ?
- mFixman 8y ago
  You can get permanent residency after living for 5 years, and citizenship a year after that.
hocuspocus 8y ago
While the tech scene is indeed very strong in some fields (like FinTech), it's also been bleeding since the Brexit vote, and the situation is certainly not going to improve any time soon. On the other hand, I guess that might mean more opportunities for non-EU immigrants?
- walshemj 8y ago
  That's what some of the pro Brexit mp's were saying - well actually lying - to try and get some typically labour communities to vote Brexit.

bitL 8y ago

Dunno. Salary in Silicon Valley - $300k. Salary in Vancouver - $80k. Rent almost the same. Weather in Silicon Valley - year-round sunny. Weather in Vancouver - 2 months of sun, rest gloomy. Are you sure you want to move to Canada? It used to be that MS/AMZN had a back up base in Vancouver for anyone who didn't make the cut with H1B/O-1.

mainliningfbs 8y ago
Why would you move to second world country that is sliding the wrong way? Why not move a first world country that is safe and cares about its citizens?
MAGZine 8y ago
your salary numbers seem a little off, and, at least in sf rent numbers are not the same. compare new 1bdrm apts between sf and yvr and you'll see. amazon/microsoft just regularly employs people in YVR, not just for L1 purposes. they've been causing salaries (and rents) to rise. anyhow, you're discounting a lot of things about Vancouver because you make a little more and the weather is a little sunnier.
- bitL 8y ago
  I spent some time in Vancouver, I can compare. And people are extremely upset about rent hike, not sure why would anyone want to go there at the moment to be honest. The same happening in Toronto and Montreal AFAIK.
  - MAGZine 8y ago
    i also spent some time in vancouver. amazon has pulled up salaries across the area since expanding there a couple years ago.
aprdm 8y ago
Why are you comparing an extreme high salary in SF to an average salary in Vancouver?

jorblumesea 8y ago

I wonder how much of this is just the political winds. Under the George Bush days there were similar sentiments and attitudes, but it never went anywhere and SV still remained dominant. Canada has long tried to capitalize on the US political situation with mixed results. Salaries are low, most of Canada has poor weather and unaffordable housing prices in the major cities. I guess if you're willing to stick it out you get citizenship, but a far less valuable citizenship compared to other western countries. I'm also curious as to if and when the immigration situation is going to hit Canadian politics as it did in the US. The facade of being pro immigration is exactly that, there are just as many racists in Canada as there are in the US.

adventured 8y ago
The US hands out one million green cards per year. There has not been a meaningful reduction in how much immigration is allowed into the US nor in how many green cards are issued. You'll notice something entirely missing from the article: there are no actual figures supporting its claims anywhere to be found, only a few individual anecdotes. What's happening is Canada is trying to become more aggressive in the pursuit of tech immigrants that are tired of waiting for US citizenship. It's a sensible plan on their part, and the US can afford the loss. The US isn't suffering from a tech employee deficit, despite the propaganda out of the big tech companies that want cheaper labor. The tech giants are all generating obscene profits, and they can all afford to pay very high salaries. Microsoft + Google + Facebook + Amazon + Intel + Apple = ~$165 billion in likely 2019 profit. Excuse me while I cry over their labor costs. The Trump Admin + Republican Congress have barely changed anything in relation to immigration. The major immigration legislation speaks for itself: there hasn't been any. And the Democrats are about to take back to the House. The biggest complaint you'll see, is that there's a long wait time, which illustrates the extreme demand for US citizenship, as the rate of green card issuance hasn't declined.
- jorblumesea 8y ago
  Right, it's an optics problem. Trump gets in office and suddenly everyone starts seeing old issues in a new light. But as you pointed out, almost nothing has changed. Ends up US citizenship is in real demand. It's also not a surprise that two of the most back logged nationalities, China and India, have the most populous countries.

aprdm 8y ago

As a software engineer who wanted to leave my country I read how H-1B worked and removed US from my list of wanted countries. I am a PR in Canada and got it after have worked here for 1 year. I have friends who worked with me at previous company in the US division living in fear of getting their lives taken away from them if the company fires them and they are in a huge waiting list for green card (mostly Indian and Chinese) and don't want to change jobs because of fear.

calvinbhai 8y ago
You took the best decision. It's not worth even a million dollars per year, if living in the US means bonded labor. The amount of stress that comes along with it is mind numbing.

mabbo 8y ago

As an Amazon employee, I really hope this factors in highly in the HQ2 decision. Toronto isn't perfect and the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax breaks, but if Amazon wants to hire 50,000 more tech workers then they'd better be doing so in a country that will let those 50,000 people work.

NTDF9 8y ago
> As an Amazon employee, I really hope this factors in highly in the HQ2 decision. Seems like a natural hedge against anti-tech, anti-modern US establishment.
jorblumesea 8y ago
Most likely candidate for HQ2 is DC. Bezo just built a mansion there and he needs political cover from both sides of the aisle. His problems are mostly political now and he's a Libertarian with a capital L. Canada is too socialist and taxes are too high.
hocuspocus 8y ago
I always believed that Toronto is a serious contender for the same reasons. > the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax breaks Does it matter that much, though? As an insider you probably know better than me, but I assume that the lower cost of employment per head in Toronto would easily offset any kind of tax break.
- mabbo 8y ago
  I tell everyone the same thing: I don't know any specific details more than anyone else. But what I do know is how Amazon operates and makes decisions: via data, not feelings. My guess is that there are two teams. One has spent the last few years (long before the HQ2 announcement) building an incredible formula that estimates the expected return over the next 25 years for opening HQ2 in a given city, given these 100+ variables. The second team is collecting those 100+ variables for each city, maybe making analyses on cities to make better estimates on what those numbers look like. The decision will then boil down to the city with the highest number popping out of the formula. That's what I would expect from Amazon at least. I have no actual knowledge of what the process really is. Then again, after the Fire Phone fiasco it's clear not all of Amazon's decisions are made this way.

dilippkumar 8y ago

As someone who is contemplating this move, I can share some thoughts. First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into the US, Canada etc. Among the people I know and including myself, the top driving forces are safety, good governance, clean air and water. While living in the US has the benefit of higher pay, it comes at a significant cost. Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider “day trading” etc. It’s true that all of these have a common theme that they all generate some sort of income. However, for most of us, the income isn’t the driving force. All of us have a drive to express ourselves creatively and do fun things once in a while (mine dogecoin), the implications of the current green card wait is that we can’t participate in any of these for decades. Canada is very appealing because of the hassle free immigration process. Once in Canada, there is liberty to pursue hobbies. These come with benefits of safety, good governance and clean air/water. The lower pay is a very minor price for getting all of this.

jarsin 8y ago
OMG you can't mine dogecoin? GTFO. Impeach Trump!
pshc 8y ago
re: crypto mining, that’s funny. I thought a passive activity like crypto mining is allowed as long as one doesn’t actively “work” on it. Maybe the NAFTA/USMCA rules are different?
- bdcravens 8y ago
  Mining is one thing, selling for a profit is where I think you run afoul. (IANAL)
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    That’s just investment income afaik. Pretty sure this is okay so long as you’re not day trading.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

olivierlacan 8y ago

I'm curious if anybody here has quality data for USCIS' processing speed on H-1B and other work-based immigration visas. USCIS provides [aggregate statistics for previous years and quarters](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-studies/immigration-forms-data/data-set-all-uscis-application-and-petition-form-types https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-studies/immigration-form...) but it's very difficult to isolate that data to a specific form type (for example I-129 for H-1B). Common known resources like http://visadoor.com http://visadoor.com and https://www.visajourney.com/content/times/ https://www.visajourney.com/content/times/ have incredibly low quality, out of date, or just plain insufficient to get any idea for: - how many I-129 forms were received and processed by each of the USCIS service centers (California, Nebraska, Vermont) that handle them? - how many of those forms already resulted in denials, approvals, or requests for evidence? - what is the throughput of each USCIS service centers? Does anyone know where such information is available from a public or private source? It seems clear that the California service center is completely overwhelmed this year with an ever-growing processing window (from the date of receipt notice, not even the date of first submission to USCIS) that has now reached 6.5 to 8.5 months to process I-129 petitions for a Nonimmigrant Worker (see https://egov.uscis.gov/processing-times/ https://egov.uscis.gov/processing-times/). This means that if an H-1B petitioner received an offer from a U.S.-based company, applied with said company in early April 2018, got through the 1 in 5 lottery odds and received notice from USCIS a few weeks later in May 2018, it's very likely they won't be able to start working until November or January 2019. Nearly a full year after initiating the process with their prospective employer. Assuming said employer was able to hold the position open for a full year. I'm of course ignoring the time it would take after receiving USCIS approval for the I-129/H-1B petition to schedule an embassy interview in one's home country, send the passeport for visa stamping, and relocate to the U.S. Which could easily add another month to the ordeal. Comparatively the Nebraska service center has a processing window of 2 to 4 months, and the Vermont service center 4 to 6 months but I suspect these centers can only handle a fraction of the cases the California service center can. I've seen mentions on Twitter of case transfers from one service center to another but nothing USCIS announced publicly, meaning there is no way for a petitioner to know where their case is actually being processed. More importantly, it's virtually impossible to tell wether how deep someone is in the processing queue, which could lead someone to withdraw and apply to another work visa (like O-1). Let's not even talk about the case where one would consider a new employer while in the U.S. under an existing H-1B since the processing time appear to be just as lengthy. USCIS has also proudly canceled its usual premium processing fees for the stated purpose of "resorbing the backlog" (so far, unsuccessfully) until at least January 2019 which means even if your company needs you to start earlier and is willing to pay the price to expedite the process, they can't. So not only are you stuck waiting to work with a prospective employer for upwards of a year (or more) but then it will take (an already approved nonimmigrant worker) another 6.5 to 8.9 months (or more) to be able to start working at another company. People throw around phrases like "indentured servitude" far too easily for my taste, but just imagine having to wait a year to start a new job you've already applied to and signed an offer for, losing opportunities for raises, experience, networking, and advancement in the process. All the while knowing that you'll be essentially stuck in the job unless you're lucky enough to find another company willing to sponsor you again, wait for the lengthy transfer, and hopefully not be let go by your current employer (and unique provider of the right to remain in the country) in the meantime.

csomar 8y ago

Is it really true, however? Or my experience is an outlier? I have been issued a 10 year tourism/business visa to the USA. The interviewer asked me a couple questions and then said "Your visa is approved". She didn't ask for any paper work. No kidding. I got the interview booked, interview and the visa/passport in the same week. The process was flawless and the employees very friendly. I know a few others in my social circle who setup shop in the US when they wanted to move there. None of them complained about the "waiting time" but there were complaints about the costs and legal expenses to process visas/green cards. So is it really that bad in the US? Because as far as it is now for me this is way better than Europe. Also no other country has a green card lottery where they arbitrarily give 55k random citizens a Green Card. I have been applying to the Green Card lottery for around 10 years. I almost thought this will be their rejection reason for my visa. I think the US gets lots of hate but so far is the best country of the bunch. I might be wrong but will be doing more business and lots of travel to the US so it will either confirm my bias or reverse it.

otto2 8y ago
Your visa is essentially a visitor visa. You are not authorized to work in USA - you can visit for business while being paid by foreign entity. It is very different from H1B visa that is tied to a specific employer.
- h1srf 8y ago
  And on a tourist visa, you are not supposed to be looking for a job.
- csomar 8y ago
  I understand that. But my point is that the process was way easier, faster and better than most European countries, Canada or the UK. For the same type of visa.
  - zaptheimpaler 8y ago
    Getting a green card or citizenship is much much harder in the US than Canada. It may very well be easier to get a tourist visa, but that doesn't mean anything in the context of green cards.

timewarrior 8y ago

I just moved out of US and in process of moving to Canada. Just for background: Worked in leadership roles for startups and Fortune 15 companies, sold a company to Dropbox, advise/invest in bunch of startups. My life's goal is contribute to curing/diagnosing Cancer using technology. Everything I did in the past 14 years has been towards meeting that goal. I figured, I would need knowledge, network, and financial stability. I moved to US in 2011 and over 14 years I achieved all of these. However, after moving to US I realized that I lost the most critical piece: ability to work on this goal without significant restrictions. Visas like H1/O1 have lot of restrictions on what you can work. Recently it has become extremely difficult for early stage startups to get H1, especially if the applicant owns significant equity. Once you get invested and comfortable in a place, you stay put. I worked really hard to break this ceiling. I tried for EB-1 Green Card twice and got rejected both times. You need 3 out of 10 criteria for Green Card. Over 2 petitions and an appeal - separate USCIS officials gave me 4 criteria. But none of them gave me 3, and their responses were very hostile. I had to deal with H1/O1 petition every year while I pursued my entrepreneurship goals. However, I am finally done with this and can't do it anymore. I think I also have PTSD because of my experience dealing with immigration. I could not work to my potential, missed family events because I couldn't travel and stayed in limbo for too long. However, finally I have moved out of US. I want to pursue my goal to attack Cancer without any employment restrictions. At this point, Canada seems like the best place for this and that is where I am moving. I am originally from India, and as mentioned in a few other posts, I do not want to live there because of quality of life challenges. I will write more detailed posts sometime next year detailing my experience. However in summary my advise is: If you are from India, come to US only if you internalize that you are in a temporary situation with a set goal: make more money/learn/build network. Don't get too invested, because you might need to leave at short notice. If you are an entrepreneur, you would be spending the best years of your life, without being able to perform to your potential due to immigration related bureaucracy. India, currently, has great opportunities for Entrepreneurs. I was lucky to be able to found a company on H1, sell it and work at a few great companies. Still it wasn't enough to make it here.

sizzle 8y ago
Just wanted to thank you for pursuing such a noble cause. We need more people like you putting their time, energy, resources, and brains towards solving real hard problems in society, such as access to affordable (mental) healthcare, affordable housing, climate change, and ethical ML/AI systems. Keep up the good fight friend, you'll be an asset to any country lucky enough to call you their citizen.

jiveturkey 8y ago

https://outline.com/a3szHf https://outline.com/a3szHf

hourislate 8y ago

This is going to be unpopular but Canadian Ex pat here, If you're ok with making 1/3 the money you'd make in the US, have 1/10th the opportunity, put up with really expensive living conditions and really awful weather, Canada is the place for you.... I left and never looked back. It just doesn't make any sense to even consider returning. Many of my friends have fled to the US because of the incredibly high taxes, sub standard medical care, high cost of living, etc for NYC, DFW, CA, NC, etc. For H1B types coming from a 3rd world country it would probably feel like heaven but for regular folks the statistics prove otherwise, Canadians are leaving or would like to leave to work in the USA. Just saying...

pteredactyl 8y ago

I generally believe we should try harder to educate and hire Americans. I am not against immigrants or H1B holders. Or anyone trying to improve their lot in life. I am against the position H1B holders are in. And the effects it can have on a culture. Especially with the force multiplier of technology. They are basically indentured servants. And therefore more likely to do whatever their boss wants, including morally suspect things. Like buy and sell American's privacy. Speak out or resist? You'll need to on a plane out of the country in 6 days. I'm not saying this is a product of a particular race/ethnicity/identity. The moral suspectness. But rather the product of the position. Most everyone in that position would behave in similar ways to keep their position. Sometimes at all cost. Don't get it twisted. So to me, the reasonable options are to either cut back on the program, or give H1B holders more rights.

tabtab 8y ago
Companies don't want to train: they want Instant Workers. Often they want combinations of skills that are unlikely to be had by any one individual. They want version X of the database, vendor Y of the IDE, vendor Z of the network, etc. Shopping the world increases the chances of fitting their desired skill combo via shere probability; it has almost nothing to do with training. Think about it.
- pteredactyl 8y ago
  I agree. And for the companies it makes sense to not want to train. I'm saying the onus is not on them. But on the US education system. K-12 and beyond.
  - tabtab 8y ago
    That won't work either for the "combo-hunting" problem. One cannot predict specific company combos ahead of time when in school. Plus, companies want practical experience, not classwork experience. I'm at a loss for an easy to way to explain the "combo problem" at the moment.
    - 8y ago

t1o5 8y ago

This news has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Not everyone moves to Canada after they get a residency thru the Express Entry system. The majority of them do something called "soft landing" to activate their permanent resident card and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a plan B if something happens with their greencard process in future. This is actually detrimental for other eligible people who have applied for express entry because H1Bs fill the top layers of the express entry system and thus the permanent residence permits go wasted because H1Bs don't come to stay in Canada. Québec is an exception here and do not follow merit based system. So the immigrants coming in Québec are not skilled or employable and is a burden to Canadians. On the other hand, skilled applicants in Québec are waiting 4-5 years for a permit from Québec because Quebec do not follow merit system. The new CAQ leader is also against immigration and has vowed to cut down immigration. So any startups planning to have an office should be aware of this. Québec IT employers are struggling to find talents because of the dysfunctional immigration department of Québec. Now the highly regarded global talent stream is only applicable to large employers. Startups still have to go the hard way. Getting an LMIA work permit will take 3-6 months and renewing it will also take the same amount of time. Overall, Canada's Express Entry system is a merit based system. But the candidates do not need to prove their technical skills. Anyone with a Bachleor's degree, a good command of English and 3 years of work experience can get a residency in Canada. This doesn't necessarily mean there is talent. Moreover, a talented international worker might travel to many countries, so if you are an applicant who have travelled to many countries, 6 months express entry time do not apply, Canada will put you thru something called Security Screening which can last 1 to 2 years. So the 6 months timeline are for people who haven't travelled a lot or worked at many countries. It's just for a less experienced Bachelor degree holder with a good command of English. Do not come to Canada for the money, salaries are not that great. Toronto and Vancouver housing prices are pumped up thanks to Quebec's money for citizenship scheme. Québec immigration is dysfunctional, so good luck finding talents in Montreal for your startup.

Scoundreller 8y ago
> The majority of them do something called "soft landing" to activate their permanent resident card and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a plan B if something happens with their greencard process in future. This only buys a maximum of 3 years of insurance (from date of landing). After that, unless you're living with a Canadian citizen spouse, you'll lose PR unless you move to Canada.

calvinbhai 8y ago

I'm in my 30's, spent > 1/3rd of my life in the US. Got a Masters degree before Obama was elected. Slogged enough, made enough personal sacrifices to achieve what I have. An employer who hired me based on a promise of EB greencard. Employer screwed me at last moment by giving a lame excuse as to why the GC process stalled. In the mean time, had saved up enough to put 20% down on a 500K+ home in N.E. US. Had almost paid the booking fee. But wife's employer started giving the deaf ear treatment when following up on the GC. Now, we are all set to move to Canada in a month or two. Once we find jobs for our respective fields (both are in good, in-demand tech jobs) we'll say good bye to years of bonded labor and living in uncertainty. So we will finally buy a house in a country which we can call home, without ever thinking of being 'hopeless 3rd class residents of a country with no hopes of citizenship'. (I hope the Americans who can vote, will work towards fixing this system)

digianarchist 8y ago
In Canada you’ll likely have citizenship in 3-4 years. It’s very straight forward.
- calvinbhai 8y ago
  very true. That's the icing on the cake. After 4 years, no one in the family needs to bother about visa, visa interview, stamping, stamp expiry, renewal of visa and a zillion other things.
arcticbull 8y ago
I'm in a similar spot, late 20s, spent the better part of a decade in the US. I'm back for a couple more years on a TN but recently I went from wanting a green card to wanting to go back home to Canada. The plan right now, subject to change, is to do one more tour of duty here, save up, network, invest, then pack it on up and start a company when I get back. In the process of buying property in Canada.
Latteland 8y ago
I am an american, and I'm sick about what is happening. We are going to see a real brain drain. In the top end tech market at least, there's a massive shortage of people who can do bespoke software. Seattle has endless job opportunities.

nimbius 8y ago

glad to see tech workers are getting the same benefit we've had in the skilled trade industty for nearly 40 years. I'm a master level certified diesel mechanic, and the immigration group I qualify for is nearly instantaneous as well. Saskatoon province mining jobs pay about 4x what i make currently in the states. If you're a long haul truck driver, welder, pipefitter or plumber, the biggest hurtle to getting into canada is picking which canadian beer you like to drink after a days work.

sublupo 8y ago

This sounds weird but I've wondered something. Since California is a sanctuary state, can't workers come over with H1B and then simply not leave when the Visa expires?

timewarrior 8y ago
I would not recommend this. Couple of issues: 1. You might want to visit your family in home country. How do you enter back. 2. CBP can put a border check point anywhere 100 miles from a border. Which covers most of California (land and sea border) including SF. If you get caught in one, your would be arrested and deported. 3. If you overstay for more than 6 months you are banned from US for 3 years. If you overstay for more than 1 year, you are banned from entering US for 10 years. 4. Government knows that you are overstaying. They can also easily find out about your bank accounts, health insurance, doctor visits, kids going to school. They could apprehend you if they want to. It could start by sending you a NTA (Notice to Appear). Once you get an NTA, you can't even leave the country on your own terms without triggering a re-entry bar. 5. Most good employers won't give you a job without a work authorization. Sadly, what you had suggested has been the life story of all the undocumented workers in US. And it is really tough. I know H1-B has it bad, but it is nothing compared to what the undocumented workers have been going through. When you live in the shadows and under fear of law enforcement for a big part of your life, it can mess up with your mental health. I wish there is a good outcome for them. Unfortunately the low skilled undocumented workers don't have much options in life. But I am not sure why someone who is educated and skilled, would subject themselves to such a life. Just go somewhere else!
- sublupo 8y ago
  Thank you for that information
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Since California is a sanctuary state, can't workers come over with H1B and then simply not leave when the Visa expires? No. “Sanctuary state” means state resources (including state personnel time) aren't being used to actively aid federal immigration authorities, it doesn't mean federal immigration laws are nullified or that you won't be deported out face other federal law consequences in the case you describe.

madmax108 8y ago

One of my friends recently got his Permanent Residency from Canada for a job he has just gotten there. What is the difference between a PR and citizenship? Is there any difference in what the country owes the individual or vice versa in either?

to_bpr 8y ago
You can't vote in Canada unless you've citizenship. You've to be physically present in Canada 3 years of every five to retain PR, not so with citizenship.

beerlord 8y ago

Australia has already shown the way for Canada: Mass-immigration of people with dubious qualifications, as long as they work cheap. Resultant huge downward pressure on wages, particularly in IT. Companies throw bodies at problems instead of innovating or designing projects and systems carefully and smartly. The mass influx of people then puts pressure on housing and public services, but juices the economy through the extra consumption of extra people. Meanwhile socially, the migrants are predominantly males, with poor attitudes towards women, and backwards practices such as female foeticide. Soon inner-city work and social areas become gender-imbalanced: dominated by Indian men. Businesses then put into practice gender-selective hiring and promotion which harms all men, including locals. All of this might very well work if the male ratio of visas per country of origin was capped to 50% in the first place. If Canada wants to pursue a Parliamentary gender quota, why not start with an immigration gender quota? Be careful, Canadians.

mitul_45 8y ago

I'm an Indian living in Amsterdam just because of these immigration rules. My spouse is an Architect and she won't be able to work in the US due to H4 rules and in Canada because they don't accept the academic credentials for her foreign university. I find Europe a little better option in that regard.

known 8y ago

Since India is the most racist country in the world many qualified/talented people are leaving it. https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/ https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-ra... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo...