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Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repair on New MacBook Pros
- msie 8y agoWell, Apple lost its soul years ago.
- fipple 8y agoCorporations don't have souls.
- threeseed 8y agoThat makes no sense. Go have a look at the original Mac 128k. They were borderline impossible to even open.
- msie 8y agoHave a look at the macs that followed.
- dreamcompiler 8y agoOnly because Torx screwdrivers were rare in those days. I can open a 128k Mac now in about two minutes, and that includes the time it takes to buy the screwdriver at Home Depot.
- lamontcg 8y agoGo have a look at an Apple ][+ -- expandability, hackability and an open architecture were all attractive selling points.
- alpineidyll3 8y agoLol was already resigned to this being my last mbp (customer for at least 15 years)... This is pure icing .. .
- ssijak 8y agoConfirmation bias is very high when you are already at least subconsciously deicided on something.
- tobyhinloopen 8y agoI just hope my current rMBP 2015 doesn't die on me... I don't want the OLED bar, crappy keyboard or donglelife. I don't want to run Windows either... Linux is also questionable. Maybe I'll just get a hackintosh or something.
- colejohnson66 8y agoI never understood Apple with this. They fight hard to make long lasting devices (iOS 12 can be installed all the way back on the 5s IIRC), but then fight back against repairability
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoI presume there is good margin in official repairs. Just like there is speccing extra memory on a machine you buy, that can be bought for a quarter of the price from Crucial or Amazon for equally high speed and quality. They have clearly set their direction of travel, so I hold out no hope of ever owning another Cheese Grater with similar attention to detail of how upgrades are enabled.
- Terretta 8y agoRepairability is a trade off. Have you looked under the hood of a German car lately?
- giancarlostoro 8y agoOr any car I would think. A lot of cars have a cover for the motor telling you not to screw around with your car.
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoAll cars pretty much, mainly thanks to emissions regs
- ams6110 8y agoPart of the reason I only buy older cars, so I can work on them myself. I enjoy it as a hobby, and it saves me a lot of money.
- rad_gruchalski 8y agoTime is money. I charge more per hour than my authorized bmw dealer charges me.
- Jmcdd 8y agoThis is a shame and another setback for Macbooks / Macs. I'd agree with "planned obselescense" over security being the motive as the article pointed out. This will also not hurt Apple in the slightest, only their consumers who are blinded by their unwavering loyalty to the brand. Sent from my iPhone
- smoyer 8y ago"Sent from my iPhone" - nice! I bought my last ever Apple product, an IPad v1 and was dismayed when less than 2.5 years later it stopped receiving OS updates. Its battery still lasts 20 hours and yet bugs in the browser makes it crash on so many modern web pages. I can get an Android tablet every year for $70 if I just want something I'm going to throw away.
- wvenable 8y agoThat's the problem with early versions of products though, from any manufacturer. My wife has an original iPad Air, released in 2013, and it just got iOS 12. But it has a 64bit CPU.
- toasterlovin 8y agoEDIT: I misread the comment I'm replying to. Parent makes a valid point. Ignore the following. You're actually complaining that a consumer computing appliance you bought received OS updates for 6 years? And your proposed better alternative is buying a device that will probably never receive an OS update?
- JonathonW 8y agoThe last OS update the first-generation iPad received was iOS 5.1.1, released just over two years after the first-generation iPad was released. The first-generation iPad was a bit of an odd case for software updates, though (due to insufficient RAM); every other iPad has gotten at least four or five major updates before losing support. And Apple has yet to drop support for any iPads from the iPad Air on (October 2013).
- floatingatoll 8y agoThis is an excellent step for protecting MacBook Pro users against hardware invasions (such as US and China border authorities). If you trust the user to replace hardware, you permit the user’s hardware to be altered by malicious actors. By restricting final approval of hardware replacement to a vetted subset of all humanity, you ensure that it’s vastly more difficult for the vast majority of malicious humanity. Yes, in a theoretical world, you could set up your own crypto authority and sign your own device repairs, assuming Apple were to build support for this. But if you brick your CA you’d brick your laptop if it ever needed repairs someday, which would leave you thousands of dollars poorer and in need of a laptop. I trust Apple to run this CA and gate access to it _far_ more than I trust my personal self to do so. This security improvement will make me safer, as well as my non-engineer coworkers, and my mom.
- colejohnson66 8y agoI highly doubt that’s Apple’s reason considering they didn’t give a comment when asked for one
- threeseed 8y agoApple rarely comments on anything. You can't make assertions based on that.
- bsheir74 8y agoProhibiting 3rd party repairs doesn't make you any safer than you are now. If you were concerned about hardware attacks you could continue to bring your computer to the apple store, and never have to worry. All this action does is remove options for those of us who do wanna fix their own machines. And this is assuming you trust apple to inspect their parts closely. Their computers are still made in china. Why couldn't the chinese governnent coerce their suppliers to commit sabotage? Also, when was the last time your Mom was the target of a hardware attack? Is she a foreign diplomat or intelligence officer?
- gst 8y ago> All this action does is remove options for those of us who do wanna fix their own machines. I don't see how this removes any choices. It's still possible to buy other non-Apple hardware that doesn't have those restrictions.
- JohnTHaller 8y agoThe iMac Pro is similarly locked down. All while Apple fights against Right To Repair legislation.
- paavoova 8y agoIt's absolutely baffling how so many seemingly educated, knowledgeable people such as those found in tech can support these anti-user practices via their support of Apple's products. It goes further than just Apple's hardware products: some people prefer to build "Hackintosh" systems (OSX running on non-Apple hardware) and a common problem is dealing with wifi-adapter whitelists. Why would you ever want to consider using an OS that imposes such arbitrary restrictions on you?
- toasterlovin 8y agoBecause, statistically speaking, 0% of the population wants to tinker with their computer. Neither you nor anybody else on this website is normal.
- paavoova 8y agoYes, and this applies outside of computers, to cars, etc. But the PC/PC gaming enthusiast market is probably some appreciable percentage of the population. And people building Hackintoshes are certainly tinkering with their computer and hardware in the process - yet they tolerate, or even accept, Apple's vendor lock-in enough to use their OS.
- michaelmrose 8y agoThe problem is that it's not 0% its more like 2-3% and most want repairs at a reasonable rate that is enabled by a robust market and available parts without weird restrictions like those put upon official sanctioned shops.
- mmontagna9 8y agoTell that to my 70 year old grandmother who has replaced both the motherboard and hard drive in her Lenovo desktop. If you design a somewhat reasonably easy to repair computer people are more than happy to fix it themselves. It's only because of the difficulty of repairing apple products that people shy away from the idea.
- Aloha 8y agoIf you don't like the particularities of how with how a business does business, don't buy their products. If enough people agree with you, the company will either go out of business, or will change its business practices. The what amounts to hand wringing over Apple, mostly gets people flustered, without actually changing anything, but perhaps the direction of a few electrons somewhere.
- maxerickson 8y agoSo publicly criticizing the business practice you don't like, as a gambit to get other people to agree with you, is just off the table?
- p2t2p 8y agoI do change something. I've got Thinkpad T25 with linux on board as my next computer instead of mac. I've got off iCloud Drive - replaced it with SyncThing + Dropbox combination (Dropbox to deliver stuff to iPhone). I've got off from Apple Music - back to owning my music (I endlessly tired of "this album is not available in your country"). The only thing left to figure out is photos - but I think I'll just slap together couple scripts in bash to transfer them from iPhone whenever I connect it to my laptop.
- chx 8y agoThe ThinkPad Anniversary Edition 25 is an anomaly alas. Wish there were more like it. But, I have mine too :)
- staplers 8y agoIf you don't like the planet you're on, anyone can build a rocket ship and fly away if they really want to. Using your logic, why should anyone change anything when they can just run away from their problems?
- darpa_escapee 8y agoApple isn't a planet. The only reason I have a relationship with them is because they offered a product that suited my needs. A product I cannot repair does not suit my needs. I owe them no allegiance.
- pkaye 8y agoI've not looked at the details but maybe they should have make the lock optional to the user. Initially it is unlocked but once enabled, it cannot be disabled. This will give the right level of flexibility.
- wemdyjreichert 8y agoI'd analogize this to an e2e-by-default messaging app. The average user simply doesn't want to bother, and it's when stuff like this is the default that change happens.
- msie 8y agoWhat would it take to reverse this? How about protests at one of their events? Changing Tim Cook's mind is all that's needed.
- s3r3nity 8y agoSpeak with your wallet - stop buying Apple products. Tim + the shareholders would notice that.
- bigbugbag 8y agoThe usual: make it public and viral, give them a bad rep, attack them on what matters to them: profits. First grab attention of people on how this is gonna affect them, then enlarge on how apple makes huge profits, out of tax evasion, which impact well being of people around the world, also mention how their devices are made out of forced labour and degrading work conditions, and remind every other scandal.
- crankylinuxuser 8y agoSo, with more of this happening, I have a bigger question for HN. Why does used Apple hardware command a premium, even years later? Is this really come down to status? I don't think I need to discuss the anti-user features that Apple does. This crowd is more than aware.
- wemdyjreichert 8y agoHave you looked at the hardware cost to price on new iMac Pro? About a $313 markup. And factoring the T2 chip (which is worth a whole lot) and slick chassis plus some support, a great deal. https://www.cultofmac.com/485914/imac-pro-pricetag/ https://www.cultofmac.com/485914/imac-pro-pricetag/
- jeswin 8y agoThat PC being compared to is way more capable than the $5000 iMac Pro. 1080 Ti vs Vega64, that $650 motherboard has better expansion options etc.
- wrs 8y agoBecause it’s pretty great hardware. And if you price out trying to duplicate it, without arbitrarily discounting for features you don’t want, it’s not even much of a premium.
- aikah 8y ago> Because it’s pretty great hardware. It's not great, it's pretty, sure, but not great. The Last MBP spec were pretty underwhelming, the keyboard was of dubious quality and for the price it's easy to find better specs, more robust and with no extra fee when it comes to warranty. When you buy a Mac you're buying a brand, not a superior product, the "premium" is the logo on rear... Unfortunately I use both Logic and Final Cut on a daily basis so I have no choice.
- noobermin 8y agoI'm curious for answers to this after one of the worst experiences with buying a macbook myself back in 2015. It isn't "great hardware", it's just okay but more expensive. If you people really mean "pretty case" and "nice keyboard" then say that because Mac specs are often more expensive for the same specs on most laptops.
- commandlinefan 8y agoWell, that’s the end of corporate MacBooks, then...
- wemdyjreichert 8y agoCorporations could probably become authorized. Large entities will have the requisite scale to make it economical.
- threeseed 8y agoNot sure what you mean here. I don't know of a company on this planet who is self repairing Macs.
- mjfern 8y agoWe self repair macs at our university. We have staff in our dept that are authorized repair techs. I'm sure many larger organizations have a similar setup.
- wrs 8y agoAuthorized Service Facilities have access to the required tool.
- TimTheTinker 8y agoMy company buys Macs on warranty and just ships them back if there are problems.
- toasterlovin 8y agoIf you're a company providing expensive computers to white collar workers, you should probably just be giving your people new machines to use while their machines are being repaired anyway. In that scenario, it doesn't really matter if repairs take longer because broken machines need to be shipped to Apple.
- thinkling 8y agoBack when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage, I cared about keeping that flexibility. Now those are soldered to the motherboard and generally non-upgradeable from the start. This change affects “display assembly, logic board, top case (the keyboard, touchpad, and internal housing), and Touch ID board”. I could see wanting an alternate, after-market keyboard, but otherwise am happy to stick with Apple parts. The main hindrance, as others point out, seems to be for people in sparser areas with no authorized repair shop.
- paavoova 8y ago> Back when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage They still can, by purchasing an older laptop or newer "business class" device. A 2011 Sandy-bridge Thinkpad is perfectly usable even today, and is serviceable in most aspects from battery, SATA/PCIe slots, aftermarket display, and even the CPU on some models. > Now those are soldered to the motherboard and generally non-upgradeable from the start. Which is exactly why it's so important to have the freedom to repair. It's no longer a simple SSD swap that any end-user can perform themselves, now to do any such repairs you need specialized tools, knowledge of circuitry, and even a dedicated lab. For Apple to hinder these efforts is Apple turning otherwise perfectly serviceable parts into disposable junk that only they have the capacity to repair - it doesn't need to be like this. > The main hindrance What about the hindrance in being restricted in servicing and repairing something you paid for and own? Have you heard about John Deere and their practices?
- secabeen 8y agoYep. Lenovo T-series laptops are still chock full of Field Replaceable Units (FRUs). And they still publish the maintenance manual to tell you exactly how to replace them: https://ok2.de/media/ThinkPad/HMM/t480s-hmm_en.pdf https://ok2.de/media/ThinkPad/HMM/t480s-hmm_en.pdf
- MikeAmelung 8y agoYep, and you don't even have to worry about installing spyware because it came with it from the factory!
- qaq 8y agoBought first non Apple notebook in 12 years turns out Ubuntu is fairly usable and docker performs way better than on OS X.
- solomatov 8y agoThe same experience. But I used Fedora.
- xvf22 8y agoTook awhile but finally left the Apple camp. They've been moving mac OS closer to iOS and it finally became untenable for me. I miss it somewhat, but it's clear their focus is not me or my needs so I left.
- qaq 8y agoTo me the final straw was the keyboard on the new MBP WTF? Why can Lenovo make a decent keyboard in 1K notebook and Apple can't make usable keyboard on 3.5K one.
- qaq 8y agoAnd we are running pretty hefty setup in docker Pulsar Cluster, multiple Postgres Instances, ClickHouse and a bunch of services hyperkit spins out of control periodically slowing down MBP to unusable and much less beefy linux notebook is doing OK.
- mleonhard 8y agoWhich laptop did you get and which version of Linux do you run? I bought a 2015 DELL XPS 13 (9343) Developer Edition with Ubuntu. Ubuntu 16.04 has worked very poorly on it from the start. The installer crashed and I had to reinstall. Then the wifi was very slow. It would frequently lock up on resume. Hardware video decoding would occasionally crash and switch to software decoding which is choppy and eats battery power. The touchpad registered clicks while typing. One time the wifi suddenly stopped working after an update. Each of these problems was mostly solved by spending a few hours researching and running various commands as root. Some were fixed by updates after a few weeks. The latest bug is that right-clicking on the taskbar (panel? dash?) does not show any popup menu. So the only way to add buttons for launching programs is to make text files on the desktop with a special format. I'm sick of the bugs in my Linux laptop. I'm about to get a Mac again.
- dabockster 8y agoCan the T2 chip be accessed via a publicly accessible API? Or would some reverse engineering be required? Since the third party check is software based, it's theoretically possible to write a piece of software that could either overwrite the flag on the T2 chip or man-in-the-middle spoof the return value to relevant applications. EDIT: I'm also curious to find out whether it's the OS or EFI that's performing the check. Because if it's Mac OS, the easy "hack" fix would be to use an alternate OS such as Windows or Linux that doesn't care about the T2 chip. But I guess that would defeat the purpose of buying a Macbook Pro in the first place. Also, now that I think about it, if the check is in EFI then you're kinda screwed since you can't really patch it preemptively or man-in-the-middle it without booting an OS first... ...No wait, that's why projects like rEFInd exist. I guess someone could write a custom EFI manager that would bypass the check. Just install rEFInd first before replacing parts. Seems that this is super hackable and is just a matter of time until we are able to spoof the flag.
- JonathonW 8y agoThe check in question is likely happening on the T2 itself; it's a small ARM processor (derived from the ones used in iOS devices) running its own OS (a variant of watchOS, which is itself ultimately a derivative of macOS). Among other things, it's responsible for the early boot process; it performs firmware and OS verification and can stop the boot process if it thinks things don't look right.
- dabockster 8y ago> it performs firmware and OS verification and can stop the boot process if it thinks things don't look right Well crap. There goes my ideas.
- jakobegger 8y agoIsn't the whole point of the T2 chip to prevent these kinds of attacks? The T2 starts the boot process and verifies the integrity of the system (including OS) and you can't flash the T2 without a digital signature from Apple. Unless someone finds a serious flaw in the system, or one of Apple's signing keys is leaked, I don't see how you'd circumvent it.
- torgian 8y agoDon’t worry. The wizards in China will figure out a way around this.
- userbinator 8y agoMost likely by cracking the software and then distributing it amongst themselves, but eventually copies will(should?) find their way out into the larger Internet. Service software for a lot of other consumer hardware (printers, scanners, cameras, etc.) can be found online if you search hard enough.
- voltagex_ 8y agoAre you able to provide any other hints? I've got an older Sony point and shoot that's running some form of Linux (or maybe VxWorks). I'm pretty sure I can put it in debug mode with the right SCSI command.
- balls187 8y agoMy first macbook pro was in 2007. I had it in a demo area and I shattered the screen. I found a place selling the display unit, which I replaced, for a fraction of the cost of having apple repair it. I imagine this is to cut down on the number of Apple computers repaired with bootleg parts, then either resold to Apple, or brought in for warranty repairs, but stopping legit DIYer from repairing their hardware is a pretty terrible side effect. EDIT TO ADD: More likely, the security chip verifies the hardware wasn't tampered with, so it needs special software to update its checksum.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- andr 8y agoThe impact of this will be much bigger outside of the US, as most countries outside of North America do not have a single Apple Store. In those countries, usually there is a licensed repair provider, but the customer experience can be drastically different. In Bulgaria, I've had to wait of over 3 weeks for a simple in-warranty repair of a MacBook, like a keyboard replacement. Using unlicensed repair stores has been the only choice. Now that this option is gone, it will surely be harder to justify owning a MacBook as a business device.
- sianns 8y ago"Most countries outside of North Americs don't have a single apple store" lol. Rinse out your brain.
- arnvald 8y agoApple stores are in 24 countries, excluding North America that's 22. Which means that most countries don't have a single Apple Store. So not only is your comment rude and inappropriate, it's also incorrect.
- dragonwriter 8y agoThere are 195 countries in the world, 23 in North America. There are 24 countries with Apple stores, 2 in North America. So, there are 172 countries not in North America, 22 of which have at least one Apple Store. So, “most countries outside of North America don't have a single Apple Store” is true, though it's even more true that most countries in North America don't have a single Apple store.
- growt 8y agoHow are there 23 countries in North America?
- selectodude 8y agoCaribbean and Central America.
- joevdwalt 8y agoWell yeah sorry to see the mac go. I love their products but will be my last macbook.
- joevdwalt 8y agoI will not be buying another mac after this.
- slr555 8y agoThis is true for farmers in many places who buy or lease machinery from companies like John Deere. Using IOT, Deere can tell when a non-OEM part has been installed and they can remotely disable the machine until the "proper" part has been installed. Their customers are locked into their parts and service.
- hkjayakumar 8y agoHere's [0] a nice article from Vice which discusses the Tractor-Hacking movement and the wider push for right-to-repair. [0] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/kzp7ny/tractor-hacking-right-to-repair https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/kzp7ny/tractor-ha...
- toasterlovin 8y agoTo be fair, there is a pretty big difference between something like a tractor, where most of the parts are simply large pieces of machined metal, and something like a computer where most of the parts are not repairable and, due to security concerns which benefit the customer, there are things like secure enclaves which may entail chain of custody concerns to be properly replaced.
- semi-extrinsic 8y agoIf a secure enclave requires chain of custody for replacement, is it even secure? If it was possible to circumvent by replacing a hardware module, wouldn't law enforcement/(industrial or government) spies/thieves/etc. just do that?
- toasterlovin 8y agoIt isn’t possible to circumvent it; it just won’t work if it’s repaired outside of a trusted chain of custody.
- zaarn 8y agoA modern tractor isn't simply a bunch of machined metal, they have several computers on board, including integrated laptops with vendor branding, to control various equipment or the engine or many other things. Several of these parts are not repairable and need to be swapped entirely (if you want a taste of this; modern car lighting assemblies with LEDs can't have individual sections replaced, the entire assembly needs to be swapped).
- mcphage 8y ago> “Another is security, but I don’t see a security model that doesn’t trust the owner of the device making much sense.” It’s not the owner of the device that Apple doesn’t trust. I wonder if there has been any major instances of people other than the owner of an Apple device trying to get into it? Maybe the CEO of iFixit can think of one?
- pfschell 8y agoThe comparison to John Deere's anti-competitive actions is flat out retarded. Every repair they list is also an attack vector against your data if your device falls into hostile hands. Show me one nation state intelligence service, border guard, or Romanian hacking syndicate that's trying to pwn a tractor.
- nepeckman 8y agoI'm pretty sure a nation state has the resources to fake the diagnostics, and a border patrol isn't going to open the computer, just harass you for the password. This does relate to the right-to-repair movement.
- dreamcompiler 8y agoI just replaced the keyboards in two older (2011 and 2013) long out-of-warranty MacBook Pros. Both required the complete disassembly of the machine. One fix cost about $150 in parts and the other was less. If I'd been required to let Apple do the work, each machine's repair would have cost at least $500, and that assumes Apple would even have been willing to repair such old machines. Apple just gave me yet another reason not to buy a new MBP and to keep milking my old ones along.
- neuronic 8y agoI had a 2013 Samsung ATIV Book and when the keys began to fail, I attempted to replace the keyboard. This is something that took < 5min on my 2008 HP laptop but was now impossible, because Samsung decided to glue and mold the keyboard onto the actual case. So this isn't a problem limited to Apple, apparently most manufacturers decided that devices need to be as unfixable as possible.
- tonyedgecombe 8y agoMore likely they decided devices needed to be as light and cheap to manufacture as possible and a by-product of that is being unfixable.
- afandian 8y agoIt might be the result of a compromise but it is still an active choice. I think it is within the remit of a designer to think how the product will be serviced.
- dreamcompiler 8y agoSome designers maybe. Jony Ive clearly couldn't care less about repairability.
- afandian 8y agoIf he's selling Apple Care insurance, I bet he does (one way or another)
- theonemind 8y agoThese videos created by a third party Apple repair shop convinced me to ditch Apple: https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/videos?view=0&sort=p&flow=grid https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/videos?view=0&sor... He goes into the poor practices they use in manufacturing in general that literally every other manufacturer gets right. They might use under-sized capacitors to save room on the board. The first "unibody" they advertised had two aluminum parts glued together. Some of their repairs for recall-level issues amounted to burning the board, which masks the problem and kicks the can down the road until your warranty runs out. They actively fight your right to repair. I like how their products look and work, but they really make unreliable products that look and feel premium with substandard engineering, overcharge, perform shockingly shoddy first party repair and generally try to shift blame to customers. So, for the engineering, you'd want to get AppleCare.. a very expensive extended warranty, on an already overpriced machine, where they will give you refurbished boards/computers, using their own often highly questionable repair tactics, like placing rubber over things to push it harder onto the board instead of re-soldering, or baking the board to mask problems.
- volkl48 8y agoOne small note: Every single OEM sends out refurb'd major components, that is not a behavior unique to Apple.
- pokemongoaway 8y agoLouis is awesome!
- theshrike79 8y agoRossmann is advertising his own repair shop with those videos. And of course he sees only the bad stuff, since he repairs the broken ones. MKBHD explains the issue pretty well here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndphYju6PVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndphYju6PVM tl;dr Apple produces craptons of stuff, if just 0.01% of it fails, it's thousands of devices - and those users jump to social media to bitch about it, making it seem like a huge number of devices is affected.
- 8y ago
- integricho 8y agoThere's no justification whatsoever for owning any Apple product other than some foolish pride, sense of elitism, or something alike.
- dang 8y agoCould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?
- integricho 8y agoI was under the impression that expressing your own views and opinions is allowed and is a natural part of any discussion. Such expressions cannot be supported with facts.
- dang 8y agoWell, we're trying for a bit better than the internet default here. The combination of unsubstantive and vehement is particularly bad in a comment, plus it leads to even worse, so we ask users not to post like that to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- tokyodude 8y agoI'm actually a little disappointed in Apple's service considering the cost of their hardware and the cost of AppleCare. Back in the 80s and 90s many companies excellent service was you'd call customer support, they'd express ship you a replacement for free and you'd send back the broken item. They would take your credit card number just in case you didn't send the broken item back but otherwise it was on their dime. I had this experience with NEC 21 inch monitors, 2 different video card companies, and Matrox hard drives as just 4 companies off the top of my head. Yes, NEC FedExed me 70lbd 21 inch monitors over night. No idea what it cost them but the monitor cost me around $2500 in 1995, certainly comparible to an MBP. Compare to Apple, they were going to service my MacbookPro and I was without it for 2 weeks. The only reason I was able to get by is I had just bought a new Windows laptop for VR so I'd have something to use while they serviced the MBP. It made me wonder why they couldn't do it the way those other companies did. Send me the new machine, I'll transfer my data, wipe the old machine, send it back. Even if my old machine is unusable (and therefore I can't get the data off) I'd still prefer the instance service I use to get. Just give me a new machine, factor that into the cost. The fact that they didn't do as good a job as those other companies was disappointing.
- lathiat 8y agoThey generally do a better job if you have a nearby Apple Store (an official not a third party one). Unfortunately if you don't have one of those you end up a little worse off. On the plus side, most brands don't have stores in the majority of non major cities. Apple Does. So they're ahead of a lot of brands in that regards. You can get repairs usually done same day or within 1 or 2 days in the worst case if you can walk into an Apple Store in most cases (with some exceptions obviously) - for both iPhone and Mac. EDIT: The comment below points out they only have stores in 22 countries. I agree in some regards that is low but I would suggest it is probably high compared to many brands for not requiring a 2 week turnaround as you had above.
- muse900 8y agoI think the main issue here is the availability of repairs, if my sony ps4 breaks down, I most likely won't take it to sony as they will take 3 weeks to send it back. I'll prolly take it to an individual shop and get it done within a day. Also the other downside e.g for iphones is that apple is not selling genuine screens... you broke your screen on your $1500 iphone? cause thats how much it costs in the EU... you will get a knockoff screen if you want to get it done in a day, if you want you can wait 4-5 weeks for them to get back to you, unless you live in london, paris, berlin etc.
- amrx431 8y agoI was planning to buy a MBP. Will scout for the older models that are still in market. MBP official repairs are damn costly.
- RileyJames 8y agoWhen I upgraded my MacBook Air, I decided to try switching away from Apple. Primarily because the new MBP’s & Air’s were expensive, and all the new feature which made them expensive were things I didn’t want or need. I also wanted to give Linux another shot. I went for a Dell XPS, and while there are things I don’t like (primarily keyboard & trackpad) I’ve got used to them. (Keyboard still shits me). But, when the motherboard & power adaptor died on me. A dell technician came to my house the next day, sat at my kitchen table and fixed it on the spot. After being an Apple customer, my mind was blown!! They also shipped a new charger. (The tech might have been able to just give me one, but I think the charger might have died shortly after the repair, details). I will probably stay loyal with my iPhone, primarily for iOS (but my 6S serves me just fine, I have no need to upgrade). But I don’t think I will ever buy another MacBook.
- foepys 8y agoFor this reason MacBooks aren't really business devices in my opinion. What kind of business is okay with the service Apple provides? You have to send one employee to the Apple Store (if there is even one located near you), maybe get a replacement device, maybe wait for 2 weeks for it to return? This is so much more expensive than buying Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. with on-site support. On top of that you often get repair manuals for the slightly bulkier models.
- MisterOctober 8y agoYep! Issues like the above are among the reason I finally threw in the towel on MacOS after 20 years of being a Mac user. Between the precipitous diminution of their hardware repairability and upgradeability, software backward-compatibility problems, and unpalatable service model, it's clear to me that Apple hardware is no longer intended for the person who uses the computer as a tool for work. After I switched to Linux / Thinkpad and only had to spend five minutes rather than an hour+ upgrading the hard drive, I wondered why I hadn't made the switch years ago [answer: brainwash].
- Symbiote 8y agoAt least in Denmark, the official Apple repair company sends someone to collect the laptop, and posts it back after the repair. It's still worse than the best Dell etc can offer, but it hasn't taken up too much of my time. The number of necessary repairs is presently very high though. (I only know about the Dell service in theory. There hasn't been a problem with any of the laptops, and when a server HDD fails I prefer that they just mail the new drive.)
- superflyguy 8y agoWhen you buy Apple stuff aren't you accepting that you're someone who pays way over the odds for it but that it's the price you pay for the lifestyle choice or something? I mean, I don't get it, as I always try and get the best bang for my buck so Apple stuff, being almost an order of magnitude more expensive doesn't stand a chance but if you can justify throwing money at a phone or laptop can't you just throw a bit more at it when it breaks?
- Crosseye_Jack 8y agoMain issue to me is no self repair and AASP don’t actually repair stuff... Slight damage needing a few cents worth of caps replaced? Yeah that will be a full board swap. $900 please, oh and we don’t keep that main board in stock (cause Apple doesn’t let us) so it will be a week before we can do the swap... I don’t mind paying a little extra, I do mind getting fucked over. Now it does look like this software is only about the pairing of the components (main board, Touch ID, screen...) so component level repair should be fine as long as the cpu or the T2 doesn’t pop, so it’s not completely the end of the world but Apple are taking the piss now. It’s not about the cost. It’s about the inability for anyone but who Apple chooses to be able to fix your hardware.
- atemerev 8y agoIt is not a “lifestyle choice”, it was, until recently, the only source of decent developer-oriented hardware with UNIX-like OS, where everything works out of the box. Now there are other options, but they are just as expensive. Good hardware costs money. Now though they are becoming less and less developer-friendly. I already replaced my desktop — it used to be Mac Pro, now it is a custom Linux box. There are not that many alternatives to Macbooks, but if Apple will continue this kind of politics, I’ll change my laptop as well. And price has nothing to do with that.
- United857 8y agoI'm speculating this works similar to iOS developer signing, where each device has a unique HW-fused ID, and only Apple can issue a cryptographically-signed provisioning profile with that ID to allow you to load software onto that device. In this case, each HW subsystem probably has its own unique ID which is hashed together; replacing one invalidates the hash and requires Apple to re-sign the system's "provisioning profile" to pass power-on tests.
- bigbugbag 8y agoUnique hardware Id is incredibly useful to identify and track devices and people around.
- dannyw 8y agoYes, so if you get your Mac or iPhone stolen it’s useless to the thief. This already happens with iCloud Activation Lock, but people just disassemble the motherboard and sell parts like the screen instead.
- bigbugbag 8y agoHow exactly is that helping getting the device back ? or the data ? How is that supposed to work anyways ? I only know a few stories of stolen iphones and macbooks and thieves had no issue using the devices or selling them.
- gumby 8y agoYou know they also sell machines without the secure enclave bonded to the substrate. If you don't want that feature you can buy one of their other machines -- or someone else's. I can find plenty of reasons to dump on Apple, but I do believe their commitment to customer privacy is pretty strong (even before considering that they are a large corporation). And I say that even though I don't believe, say, their commitment to open standards (it's historically been enthusiastic in areas where they have been behind and then, if they claw themselves out of that particular hole, the commitment is mysteriously sloughed off). The privacy issue, in particular in the Cook era, has been more consistent (if imperfect) even when I would not think it needed to be for business reasons. Again, I'm not trying to paint apple with some broad "good guy" brush, just talking about this one issue.
- michaelmrose 8y agoIf they make more money from locking it down why would they not do it with all their devices? If they show you can earn 10% more revenue in an area with slim margins why wont others follow in their footsteps. The only real solution is to make this strategy illegal.
- Crosseye_Jack 8y agoOk so wipe the customers keys in the T2 chip and/or disable id instead of disabling the whole device. Remember when Apple would disable your phone if you swapped the home button with a (iirc) Error 51 message and how they had to walk that back after enough backlash? I’m all for privacy, but there are ways to offering both privacy and repairability. > If you don't want that feature you can buy one of their other machines -- or someone else's. But this information is only coming to light after the products have been put into the market. Apple don’t share this information before you purchase their stuff. What percentage of people who purchase their products know beforehand that the only people who will be a Lee to repair their laptop is Apple or who Apple deem fit?
- colordrops 8y agoTheir whole "privacy" campaign recently is precisely to drum up business. Everyone is parroting how Apple is so focused on privacy when they forget that they work closely with the FBI. Remember the whole thing about iMessage keeping encryption keys stored on apple servers? iPhones have a mics, a camera, and access to all your personal data. Calling apple strong on privacy is like calling lions strong on vegetarianism.
- garmaine 8y agoI have a new MacBook Pro and I love it, but I also bricked it on the first day, doing nothing more than the standard security precaution of not trusting the installed software. I rebooted into recovery, wiped the drive, and hit install... and whelp, it turned out Apple didn’t provide compatible net boot recovery images until weeks after launch. Had to do a store return and live with the uncertainty of what I was running.
- Arqu 8y agoI am literally waiting for the Pixelbook 2 to replace my MacBook Pro (Touchbar) as it's been rotting away with failing speakers and keyboard getting progressively worse over time. This is my 3rd with a decade long history of using the devices. However, repairs are just too inaccessible. I don't have the luxury to wait a month for a third party authorized repair shop to do its magic so I can continue working. My best experience was with the 2011 model which I upgraded myself. Everything after was just a worse experience.
- fouc 8y agoLenovo thinkpads have a security chip also. These so-called security chips give me mixed feelings. They might improve the security of the average consumer, but they also create more barriers for anyone that wants to tinker with their setup.
- bigbugbag 8y agoAlmost every computer has a security chip now. At least if your computer has something related to one of these names: AMD, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Wave Systems Corp, Digital Management, Inc., Cisco, Lenovo, Infineon, Juniper Networks, Fujitsu, etc. These are the member of the consortium Trusted Computing Group[1] who pushed for Trusted Computing[2] through hardware or software. Do you remember the Palladium fiasco (now Next Generation Secure computing Base[3]) ? The TCPA (Trusted Computing Platform Alliance) ? This was the beginning and it happened in the late 1990's/early 2000's. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing_Group [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computing_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-Generation_Secure_Computi...
- oger 8y agoThis is simply a disgusting move. Guys like Louis Rossman are filling a gap in the market that Apple is not willing to offer: short turnaround repairs. Honestly, politics needs to step in. #RightToRepair
- shawn 8y agoLouis Rossmann does amazing work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocF_hrr83Oc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocF_hrr83Oc Unfortunately, his store just caught on fire yesterday. When it rains, it pours. Poor Louis.
- a_imho 8y agoThis is exactly what people have been voting for with their wallets though.
- expathacker 8y agoI love OS X, but nowadays I can't stand Apple's hardware. Living outside of the US, using Mac products purchased in the US means you have to go to third-party repair shops. Last week I took my 1-year old, $2,500 MBP to an Apple store in Istanbul, only to find out that Applecare doesn't work here, and a replacement screen would cost me $650 (thanks to super high import taxes). Tomorrow I'm taking it to a 3rd-party repair shop where the repair, with what is likely a counterfeit or stolen screen, will cost $400. I'm considering just buying a used Dell instead, but I hate Linux on the desktop.
- raesene9 8y agoFWIW you might find that Windows 10 Pro + WSL can get you a lot of what you want in terms of desktop capabilities. MS have been improving the WSL/Windows Interop quite a bit. I find that for things like scripting, text file manipulation and connecting to Linux servers, WSL works fine.
- petepete 8y agoBut I'm not prepared to have Candy Crush adverts in my Start Menu, which counts Windows out. Additionally, I know I can deactivate them by jumping through a couple of hoops, but that's not the point.
- a_f 8y agoIt does take some setup and tweeks; but you can create a perfectly serviceable W10 laptop without the crappy start menu and advertising. I primarily use ClassicShell (www.classicshell.net), although others exist, coupled with Spybot's antibeacon (https://www.safer-networking.org/products/spybot-anti-beacon/ https://www.safer-networking.org/products/spybot-anti-beacon...)
- AlexandrB 8y ago> It does take some setup and tweeks; but you can create a perfectly serviceable W10 laptop without the crappy start menu and advertising. What a ridiculous situation. Microsoft used to have the fig leaf that it was the OEMs stuffing crapware into new computers but at some point they decided to cut out the middleman and do it themselves. I'm dreading the day that I have to move off of Windows 7. So far it's still creaking along, but eventually something will force me to upgrade. All I want is to give Microsoft a sum of money (even a big amount of money is fine) and get an operating system that's supported for at least 1 year. If I could get access to Windows Enterprise without jumping through hoops (like self-incorporating) that might be an acceptable compromise.
- mothsonasloth 8y agoThis is a step backward on ownership but the average Joe isn't going to care about this. If at most might protest at their large repair bill they get after dropping their Starbuck's Frappucino over their keyboard. However they will quickly go back to their normal way of life; which is accepting onerous Terms and Conditions from corporations.
- kkarakk 8y agoAverage joes aren't buying macbooks anymore, iphones and ipads all the way
- blue1 8y agoAnd since Apple repair shops refuse to touch macs beyond a certain age, it means that it will now be completely impossible to repair an old mac.
- starbugs 8y agoIn states where there's a right to repair law in place, will they have to provide the software to anyone?
- torgian 8y agoUpon thinking about this more, I think they’re going to alienate a lot of their Chinese and other East Asian customers. Many of them have their computers fixed locally and not at the Apple shop.
- ramijames 8y agoAs someone who have four macbooks here at home, and has been on the mac ecosystem for decades, I'm just done with them. The last macbook pro I bought is literal garbage. The keyboard has three broken buttons and the thing is less than a year old. Now they are telling me that I can't fix my machines on my own? Thanks but no thanks.
- alkimie2 8y agoMy sentiments exactly. Windoze has largely caught up in terms of usability and lack of annoyance. The difference is the attitude. MSFT has become what Apple once was--responsive and considerate of users that have different needs and tastes. My company kind of forced me off OSX but I don't miss it. Still have 3 macbooks and 2 mini's at home. But I've also started using old W-class thinkpads. I feel much more in control of the thinkpads. Plus they are cheap as dirt and don't fight me every time I want to change something.
- xg15 8y ago> “Another is security, but I don’t see a security model that doesn’t trust the owner of the device making much sense.” Apologies for the cynism, but isn't this pretty much the mainstream security model since at least the advent of smartphones?
- vermilingua 8y agoIt is mainstream, but I'd say the author has it subtly wrong. The model distrusts the user, not the owner. It just happens that we are no longer the owners of the devices we use.
- xg15 8y agoDepends on your definition of "owner". Legally, you're still absolutely the owner of the device. You're perfectly allowed to smash your iPhone into tiny pieces and make an art piece out of them. You're also liable for damages caused by the iPhone. It's just that the device is constructed such that your choices of use are restricted to "use exactly as permitted by Apple at any given moment" or "don't use it at all". This is enforced by technical means, by reliance on components you do not own (e.g. cloud services or the OS software) and by other laws (e.g. copyright). But it isn't enforced by ownership.
- walterbell 8y agoIs there a publicly maintained "repairability index" for laptops? iFixit used to have scores for smartphones, but laptops would now benefit from similar ranking. Lenovo T480S still has some user-replaceable parts (RAM, SSD) and is only a little heavier than X1 Carbon.
- bmaupin 8y agoiFixit has repariability scores for laptops too: https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability
- walterbell 8y agoThanks. No Lenovo laptops on their list yet.
- Eridrus 8y agoSo, this article says there is no security model that doesn't trust the owner of the device, and there's something to that. But "evil maid" attacks are a pretty routine occurance in China, and having hardware that is resistant to that would be very interesting. I don't know enough about hardware to really know if they can lock everything down far enough that it's impossible to physically mess with it. It would be interesting if you could verify whether it has been messed with using an iPhone that has been at your side. But I'm not an Apple user anyway, so this doesn't really effect me anyway :)
- bsaul 8y agoMaybe now is a good time to try and revive user-friendly linux desktops initiatives ? ( and i mean really user friendly... don’t mention anything that requires displaying « libxx » or « package y » to the user every now and then)
- wlll 8y agoI have had a few run-ins with Apple over the years. Mostly semi-positive. These have been where I've had to take my main work machine in for repair and they've quoted me 14 days, but then turned the repair around in a few days. They've also often thrown in unrelated free stuff too. Last time when I took my Macbook Pro in for the free screen replacement (due to delamination) they also replaced the battery (it was bulging slightly apparently, I'd not noticed) and top case (the trackpad click wasn't reliable), totally free and not required (years out of warranty). The one case that really sticks in my mind though was when I took a 13" Macbook (pro I think) in to have the keyboard replaced (the trackpad stuck). It was a US model with a US keyboard that I'd bought off the company I used to work for, and I figured that while they were replacing the keyboard they may as well put a UK keyboard on. The Apple reps on the phone, then in store both said this was a reasonable request (as I also thought) and so I left it with them. I get a call a day or so later saying that they couldn't do the repair because "they had to replace components like for like". Bear in mind this was a paid for repair, not under warranty. I was willing to pay for the parts and labour. Apple confirmed that the new UK keyboard would work, but they weren't allowed to repair the laptop with a different keyboard. Nothing I could do could change their mind, I'd hit a complete brick wall. No keyboards could magically fall through the cracks in the back room and no favours could be done. As reasonable a request that all involved continued to think this was, they wouldn't do anything. They even called around local apple dealers and none of them would do it either because they were all constrained by Apple's back-office systems. In the end I bought a genuine, brand-new top case (keyboard, trackpad, integrated battery) off eBay and did the work myself, it worked just fine. No idea where it came from originally. I guess this shattered any remaining idea I had that Apple was anything other than a machine. The operations side made so efficient by Tim Cook is also incredibly inflexible and as soon as you stray outside the bounds of what it has accounted for you hit a wall. As friendly as the geniuses and store employees are, Apple is not your friend.
- H1Supreme 8y agoReally surprised to see the display on this list. Compared to anything that involves removing ic's or replacing resistors (for example), replacing a display is pretty straight forward.
- zetabyte 8y agoHow this kind of business tactic is not illegal? I think this is a clearly violation of user's right to repair.
- prolikewh0a 8y agoFreedom.
- oehpr 8y agoI mean. I'm not saying you're wrong here. What's freer than an anarchic society after all? Of course, we can justify rules on the grounds of freedom. A king certainly is free, his subjects are not. So what's freer? A company that controls all aspects of their customers use of their products? Or a company that is restricted from such practices? I can't tell if your post is sarcastic, glib, factual... So I think you were too terse here. Your meaning is not obvious.
- subhro 8y agoDoesn't some of the states have a "right to repair" law? If memory serves correctly, Tesla had a trouble with that. Will Apple not be affected?
- srazzaque 8y agoReading this I've grown even more appreciative of how easy ThinkPads are to repair/upgrade. Almost encouraged, given the many guides and YouTube videos available, and ultimately it's a cost saver to them. And to all those that have moaned about the Linux desktop, I recently upgraded my ssd on my x260. End to end - circa 2.5 hours (a lot of that hands off). Fresh install of Fedora WS, with all packages and home directory restored, back to full productivity. No dicking around with drivers or playing "50 click-through install wizards". I can't help but wonder, is that even possible on Windows or OS X? Edit: typo
- teh_klev 8y agoI installed Windows 10 on my old Dell Vostro 1720 (purchased around 2010) with a new SSD. There was minimal intervention by me. Within 30-40 mins I had a usable functioning system, connected to the internet etc. I kicked off Windows update in the background and it chugged away with no prompting. I will admit this took a while but only because the ISO I have is Windows 10 RTM from 2015. It would likely have been quicker with a more up-to-date ISO with a later build. The thing is it all depends on the hardware. If you're using more esoteric kit then you're likely to have a few more speedbumps regardless of OS.
- srazzaque 8y agoIt's good to know it's come leaps and bounds since the Win7 days. What about the software installation story? Is it still a case of download then click next next next. If it is then it's definitely a superior in Linux, where yum/dnf/apt will do both OS and apps for you. I've limited experience wihb Win10, my wife has an XPS with Win10 pre-installed, and I've literally installed 2 things on it.
- CRUDite 8y agoCan anyone offer advice? I am about to enter a bootcamp, rails based, with an attached dev company / set of instructors. There is one dev using windows/Linux, several students on Ubuntu and the rest on Macs. I need a new laptop to participate. I use windows (desktop) though have used unix in the dim distant past. I am looking at a 13" i5 8gb 256gb 2017 mbp (max budget) vs a dual boot Win / Linux machine (hp envy)with an i7 and 16mb ram, full hd 13" touch screen (also with soldered ram but removable ssd). If 99% of the people use Macs I assume this makes it an obvious choice?
- coryfklein 8y agoCouldn't this protect me from somebody sneaking my laptop while I'm not looking and replacing a part with another that has some spyware attached? Sounds like it could be pretty useful, but no particular reason why to prevent authenticated users from disabling it if desired.
- bfrog 8y agoMeanwhile fixing anything in this x220 has been as a simple as going on amazon. Keyboard? amazon. Battery? Amazon. Display? Amazon. Plastic enclosure? Amazon. I've nearly replaced every damn part but the motherboard in it at this point, and its still cheaper to own than a new macbook. My T460 sadly seems to have gone the apple direction. I don't want to buy a new $1K laptop every few years just because a small part broke or it needs a battery replacement, that's a ridiculous waste.
- amatecha 8y agoThis is pretty messed up. DRM for hardware. I just picked up a couple SGI workstations earlier this week, both built in 1996. If SGI had implemented some DRM like this, it would be quite the uphill battle to even make use of these old systems that often require replacement parts to get running. There's no excuse to tolerate these harmful practices. I have a collection of some 20+ classic Macs, all of which I have performed some degree of hardware replacements/repair on. No way I'd have access to some Apple "authorized repair technician" services as an enthusiast collector who just likes old computers. Then there's the family members and friends whose computers I fix as a favor -- guess they can shell out $hundreds, instead of buying a cheap replacement part and having it installed for free, right? Assuming Apple even still produces the respective component! :\
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- ex3ndr 8y agoEveryone forget that new MBP have TouchID that authorize payments. Replacing this part could be done at scale and payment keys could be collected and eventually used by bad actors.