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From my perspective - as an European living in the US - the biggest difference is: guns. The likelihood that a routine traffic stop will result in a gun fight i

From my perspective - as an European living in the US - the biggest difference is: guns. The likelihood that a routine traffic stop will result in a gun fight is near zero in Europe, in the US it’s... probably slightly above zero. So approaching people and cars is done with extremely high tension and high possibility for escalation.

eecc 8y ago
I’ve also read somewhere that US firearms training focuses a lot on conditioning users to actually use the weapon. Apparently, someone in the US Army found that soldiers rarely fired in the general direction of the enemy, so they developed programs to train away the taboo around shooting at other humans. I guess this percolated out of the military and now you have lots of police officers that are very skilled at killing, but not so as de-escalating and so on...
- nradov 8y ago
  Police use of force training is really nothing like military combat training.
  - eecc 8y ago
    Of course it isn’t, who ever said that. I’m saying that in the use of firearms, a whole lot of effort is put into conditioning it into a fully thoughtless routine of acquire and fire. Pair that to neglecting other forms of de-escalation training and a fair amount of prejudice (if not outright racism) and you have a problem
    - nradov 8y ago
      No US police academy conditions recruits to a fully thoughtless routine of acquire and fire. And firearms training isn't even a huge part of the curriculum.
  - InitialLastName 8y ago
    Correct. The police are less beholden to strict rules of engagement.
coldtea 8y ago
Even when guns are involved (e.g. suspect holding a gun or a knife), European police is usually able to defuse the situation better and not shoot to kill. Even if their lives are in danger, that's part of their job. US police is conditioned to react like unprofessional cowards and shoot first, ask questions later, even if the suspect is a kid playing in a playground, an old woman holding a knife 30 feet away, or an unarmed homeless person (I'm not making these cases up either).
- bionoid 8y ago
  > Even when guns are involved (e.g. suspect holding a gun or a knife), European police is usually able to defuse the situation better and not shoot to kill. As a counterexample, Eric Torrell was recently shot to death by Swedish police [0] (link is Swedish). He was 20 years old with Downs syndrome and carrying a toy gun. [0] https://www.expressen.se/tagg/person/eric-torell/ https://www.expressen.se/tagg/person/eric-torell/
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Yes, it happens. But much less frequently, and is not the "default mode" in such situations.
    - valvar 8y ago
      What's your source on this? My impression, without having any particular evidence, but as a Swedish citizen, is that they follow a similar policy as American police if their own safety is at risk. The main difference is that there are less weapons in Scandinavia.
      - elbasti 8y ago
        Swedish police fires a gun, on average, about 30 times per year, with about half of those being "for effect" as opposed to being shot with the intent to kill. The united states doesn't track the number of times police shoot a gun, only the number of times police murder somebody. That number is over 1,000 people per year.[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country
tim333 8y ago
The Italian police often carry guns but you don't get the same issues.
- squarefoot 8y ago
  Just ask anyone who witnessed what happened in Genoa during the 2001 G8 summit or the family of other Italian Police victims, or other less known episodes. Warning: Articles contain some graphic but necessary images. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Raid_on_Armando_Diaz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Raid_on_Armando_Diaz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Aldrovandi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Aldrovandi https://italychronicles.com/the-shocking-case-of-stefano-cucchi/ https://italychronicles.com/the-shocking-case-of-stefano-cuc... ...etc. As in many other countries, the real problem is not guns (clarification: I'm against guns) but selection; someone letting his political views or the level of testosterone screw up his personal control during service should never ever be given an uniform, let alone a gun, period. And I'm 100% sure if we publicly screened every cop after service for drugs or steroids use, the scandal would explode within days. Cops are violent because corrupt powers need them as such: once they get a minor punishment or are acquitted after an unprovoked beating/killing, they can become a paramilitary force in the hands of the same politicians who helped them, both during service and after they retire. As usual, it's all about corruption.
  - tim333 8y ago
    Well, not zero killings but the fact you have to go back 17 years for your examples illustrates the US is a tad worse. I tried to find some stats but couldn't for Italy.
grecy 8y ago
> in the US it’s... probably slightly above zero A good friend was an LAPD beat cop, then detective for 30 years. Every single day he was on duty he took out his loaded firearm, pointed it directly in someones face and had his finger on the trigger, for fear they might pull a gun or do something else to harm him. Police friends of his were shot and killed. He shot and killed two people on duty, and discharged his firearm many, many times. He absolutely said "It's a war out there, and we want to come home alive"
- baybal2 8y ago
  Such men lack moral fibre
  - grecy 8y ago
    Actually he is one of the best humans I have ever met. Extremely kind and generous. He was just looking out for himself.
- EliRivers 8y ago
  Every single day he was on duty he took out his loaded firearm, pointed it directly in someones face and had his finger on the trigger, for fear they might pull a gun or do something else to harm him. I understand (although do not have evidence to hand) a number of LAPD beat cops manage to go quite a long time between instances of having to draw a firearm and point it at someone's face. If this officer was doing it every day, was he simply the world's unluckiest police officer, or was he the kind of police officer who makes situations more violent rather than less? I understand that typical US police training (if there is such a think in a nation with such a large range of police forces) does contain rather less "how to make situations less violent" training than their counterparts in other countries.
  - jki275 8y ago
    That comment is certainly hyperbole, but there are neighborhoods in any city that are far more violent by nature than others, and it stands to reason that one may have to respond that way more often in those areas. Police in the US are trained heavily in de-escalation, but sometimes overwhelming show of force lets everybody go home alive (yes, the offender as well), rather than allowing a situation to escalate to a point where deadly force has to be used.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

eecc 8y ago

I’ve also read somewhere that US firearms training focuses a lot on conditioning users to actually use the weapon. Apparently, someone in the US Army found that soldiers rarely fired in the general direction of the enemy, so they developed programs to train away the taboo around shooting at other humans. I guess this percolated out of the military and now you have lots of police officers that are very skilled at killing, but not so as de-escalating and so on...

nradov 8y ago
Police use of force training is really nothing like military combat training.
- eecc 8y ago
  Of course it isn’t, who ever said that. I’m saying that in the use of firearms, a whole lot of effort is put into conditioning it into a fully thoughtless routine of acquire and fire. Pair that to neglecting other forms of de-escalation training and a fair amount of prejudice (if not outright racism) and you have a problem
  - nradov 8y ago
    No US police academy conditions recruits to a fully thoughtless routine of acquire and fire. And firearms training isn't even a huge part of the curriculum.
- InitialLastName 8y ago
  Correct. The police are less beholden to strict rules of engagement.

coldtea 8y ago

Even when guns are involved (e.g. suspect holding a gun or a knife), European police is usually able to defuse the situation better and not shoot to kill. Even if their lives are in danger, that's part of their job. US police is conditioned to react like unprofessional cowards and shoot first, ask questions later, even if the suspect is a kid playing in a playground, an old woman holding a knife 30 feet away, or an unarmed homeless person (I'm not making these cases up either).

bionoid 8y ago
> Even when guns are involved (e.g. suspect holding a gun or a knife), European police is usually able to defuse the situation better and not shoot to kill. As a counterexample, Eric Torrell was recently shot to death by Swedish police [0] (link is Swedish). He was 20 years old with Downs syndrome and carrying a toy gun. [0] https://www.expressen.se/tagg/person/eric-torell/ https://www.expressen.se/tagg/person/eric-torell/
- coldtea 8y ago
  Yes, it happens. But much less frequently, and is not the "default mode" in such situations.
  - valvar 8y ago
    What's your source on this? My impression, without having any particular evidence, but as a Swedish citizen, is that they follow a similar policy as American police if their own safety is at risk. The main difference is that there are less weapons in Scandinavia.
    - elbasti 8y ago
      Swedish police fires a gun, on average, about 30 times per year, with about half of those being "for effect" as opposed to being shot with the intent to kill. The united states doesn't track the number of times police shoot a gun, only the number of times police murder somebody. That number is over 1,000 people per year.[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country

tim333 8y ago

The Italian police often carry guns but you don't get the same issues.

squarefoot 8y ago
Just ask anyone who witnessed what happened in Genoa during the 2001 G8 summit or the family of other Italian Police victims, or other less known episodes. Warning: Articles contain some graphic but necessary images. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Raid_on_Armando_Diaz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Raid_on_Armando_Diaz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Aldrovandi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Aldrovandi https://italychronicles.com/the-shocking-case-of-stefano-cucchi/ https://italychronicles.com/the-shocking-case-of-stefano-cuc... ...etc. As in many other countries, the real problem is not guns (clarification: I'm against guns) but selection; someone letting his political views or the level of testosterone screw up his personal control during service should never ever be given an uniform, let alone a gun, period. And I'm 100% sure if we publicly screened every cop after service for drugs or steroids use, the scandal would explode within days. Cops are violent because corrupt powers need them as such: once they get a minor punishment or are acquitted after an unprovoked beating/killing, they can become a paramilitary force in the hands of the same politicians who helped them, both during service and after they retire. As usual, it's all about corruption.
- tim333 8y ago
  Well, not zero killings but the fact you have to go back 17 years for your examples illustrates the US is a tad worse. I tried to find some stats but couldn't for Italy.

grecy 8y ago

> in the US it’s... probably slightly above zero A good friend was an LAPD beat cop, then detective for 30 years. Every single day he was on duty he took out his loaded firearm, pointed it directly in someones face and had his finger on the trigger, for fear they might pull a gun or do something else to harm him. Police friends of his were shot and killed. He shot and killed two people on duty, and discharged his firearm many, many times. He absolutely said "It's a war out there, and we want to come home alive"

baybal2 8y ago
Such men lack moral fibre
- grecy 8y ago
  Actually he is one of the best humans I have ever met. Extremely kind and generous. He was just looking out for himself.
EliRivers 8y ago
Every single day he was on duty he took out his loaded firearm, pointed it directly in someones face and had his finger on the trigger, for fear they might pull a gun or do something else to harm him. I understand (although do not have evidence to hand) a number of LAPD beat cops manage to go quite a long time between instances of having to draw a firearm and point it at someone's face. If this officer was doing it every day, was he simply the world's unluckiest police officer, or was he the kind of police officer who makes situations more violent rather than less? I understand that typical US police training (if there is such a think in a nation with such a large range of police forces) does contain rather less "how to make situations less violent" training than their counterparts in other countries.
- jki275 8y ago
  That comment is certainly hyperbole, but there are neighborhoods in any city that are far more violent by nature than others, and it stands to reason that one may have to respond that way more often in those areas. Police in the US are trained heavily in de-escalation, but sometimes overwhelming show of force lets everybody go home alive (yes, the offender as well), rather than allowing a situation to escalate to a point where deadly force has to be used.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]