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What's interesting is that Honda is a company that has always prioritized being in control of its own destiny. What made them interesting in the past is that th
by ProfessorLayton 8y ago
What's interesting is that Honda is a company that has always prioritized being in control of its own destiny. What made them interesting in the past is that there are many examples where they'd engineer their own solution to a problem, rather than license IP.
Quote from Mr. Honda:
"We [Honda] refuse to depend on anyone else. We will not copy foreign products nor pay royalties for the use of other companies’ patents. We don’t intend to get support from the government, either. I’m making it clear that we will do it our way." [1]
Notable examples:
- Hondamatic transmission [1]. For better or for worse, it was only until recently that Honda started using transmissions from ZF like other automakers. Arguably because automatic transmissions are on their way out, and they're focusing on other drivetrains.
- Honda's hybrid drive: They developed their own two-motor system rather than license Toyota's (Rather brilliant) solution like other companies. Their first system in the Insight (gen 1) not withstanding.
- VTEC
It seems like there's going to be an inevitable commoditization of car manufacturers in the future. Equally interesting is GM ceding some ownership of potentially game-changing tech.
[1] https://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1968hondamatic/index.html https://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1968hondamatic/ind...
- dschuler 8y agoWhat made Toyota's solution brilliant? Interesting history about Honda, thanks for sharing!
- oppositelock 8y agoIt's genius in it simplicity. The car doesn't actually have a transmission and uses planetary gear sets and two electric motors to fake one. The gasoline engine is used as the "baseline" power, and the motors then either take power away from it to charge the batteries, or complement it to help in acceleration, or just bypass it completely. When the car is running in pure electric mode, the gas engine is stopped, and the motors work together to spin the output shaft at the desired speed. When the car is using mixed power, the gasoline engine is working at a desired power level, one of the motor/generators is adding additional torque, and the second motor is used to make up the rotational difference between the sun and planet gears. This blending of gasoline and electric allows the wheel output speed to be independent of the gasoline engine speed. When the car is charging the battery, the gasoline engine is run harder than it needs to be to move the car, and one of the motor/generator units is fighting against it, using the excess torque to generate power. So, there is no transmission, no "shifting", the engine and mgu's are permanently connected to gears and simply spin them at the right speeds for the desired power and speed output.
- konschubert 8y agoThis is standard since decades in non-electric train engines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel–electric_transmission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel–electric_transmission
- CarVac 8y agoToyota's hybrid system differs from trains in that there's a direct mechanical connection from the engine to the wheels, boosting efficiency by not requiring all of the power to go through the motors.
- ProfessorLayton 8y agoThat is incorrect. Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive is able to power the wheels with either 100% electric, or 100% gas, or a combination of the two using planetary gears. This allows the use of a more efficient engine running the Atkinson cycle, with the electric motors filling in for the reduced low-end torque. At highway speeds the engine is driving the wheels directly, which is more efficient than converting torque to electric power to drive an electric motor. Honda's two-motor system runs much like the transmission you linked, but again drives the wheels directly at highway speeds.
- konschubert 8y agoI must have misunderstood the GP then, sorry :(
- marcinzm 8y agoThe Toyota system seems fairly different than a diesel-electric train system to me. As I understand it in a diesel electric system the three components (diesel engine, generator and electric motor) all do one thing the whole time and there's no batteries. In the Toyota system however the electric motors can flexibly act as either motors or generators. The gas engine in Toyota also doesn't need to always be on to provide power.
- wstrange 8y agoIt's really devilishly clever. You have to see it to appreciate it. This site has a nice overview: http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/PriusFrames.htm http://prius.ecrostech.com/original/PriusFrames.htm
- foobarian 8y agoThis kind of mechanical device where there are more than two shafts are always cool. Classic video about differentials from 1937 (!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYAw79386WI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYAw79386WI
- mywittyname 8y agoTraditional automatic transmissions use a set of planetary gears. The idea is that you can spin the ring gear and planet gears and different rates, which will alter the speed of the output shaft. Traditional automatics use a two input shafts capable of spinning these pairs at different speeds. A series of clutches select different pairs of ratios for each "gear". A four speed auto might have two ratios for the ring gear and two more for the planet gears. The Prius transmission takes this idea, and uses electric motors to vary the speed of these gears to create a continuous change in output speed. It's brilliant because it's so obvious when you know the trick. The end result is something that seems really complex, but is arguably even more simple than a manual transmission. It also eliminates most of the components of an automatic that are prone to wear and breaking, which is a huge boon for reliability.
- philip1209 8y agoBy investing, they co-own the company (at least partly), right? Seems smarter than trying to license the tech in 10 years.
- gph 8y agoI mean, they'll still have to license the tech from Cruise, they'll just be licensing from a company they have a minority stake in. You can't just use tech from some other company even if you are part-owner. Heck I don't think you can even do that from a fully-owned subsidiary. They have to have structural/legal independence or it's really just a different branch of the same company.
- FredFS456 8y agoIf it's a fully-owned subsidiary you could draft a contract of licensing in exchange for a token $1 or something like that. (Or is there regulatory oversight?)
- gmb2k1 8y agoThat would constitute tax fraud in many legislations. That's one of the principal points that tax auditors check in a group, although it's oftentimes hard to determine a market price.
- fma 8y agoI saw on Bloomberg TV 5%...though I think that is 5% of Cruise and not GM. GM bought cruise for $500 million cash. This investment puts Cruise at $15 billion. Nice return...
- mindentropy 8y agoIs this because Softbank, a japanese group is invested in Cruise?
- manmal 8y agoCommoditization of self-driving tech, yes; I don’t think car manufacturers will become (more) redundant, but eventually everybody‘s autonomous driving systems will either be hard to distinguish (like gasoline motor tech), or even completely regulated by legislation. Can legislators really allow that cars drive around with a system that is inferior to a competitor‘s? This will put eg every pedestrian‘s live at risk. I‘m pretty sure self-driving tech will not be a big differentiator, just like airbags - almost every car has them, they are a given.
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago> Can legislators really allow that cars drive around with a system that is inferior to a competitor‘s? This will put eg every pedestrian‘s live at risk. They already do this with everything else. Vehicles like Mercedes and Tesla are significantly safer than some competitors. Legislation sets the floor, not the ceiling. Or at least it shouldn't create a ceiling. And it's also the case that SUVs and other large vehicles pose a greater risk to pedestrians and other motorists than smaller ones, but legislators haven't done anything about that.
- Cyph0n 8y agoCouldn’t the floor be a bit higher? I’m also not sure why everyone hasn’t adopted the Toyota model of including basic safety tech in all trims...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- gwbas1c 8y agoI think it's a bit of understanding what your core competency is. Software and AI is substantially different than automotive.
- bluGill 8y agoModern car companies fundamentally do 3 things: make engines, make transmissions, and assembly parts into cars. Nearly everything else is outsourced. These are all expensive complex things that little companies cannot make. They don't make their own seats, alternators, tires... (Honda is an exception to the above rule in general).
- nradov 8y agoMany car companies outsource transmissions now.
- xattt 8y agoZF makes an 8-speed that’s used in nearly everything from Jeeps to Astons to Fords.
- mywittyname 8y agoSo was their old six-speed. The ZF 6HP automatic was a game changer when it was released. It had six forward gears with the ability to lock the torque converter in any gear and it was cheaper to produce than most four speed transmissions. They ended up dominating the RWD automatic transmission market.
- Unklejoe 8y agoI have a 335i with a 6HP21, and the converter lockup behavior was the first thing I noticed when I got the car. It usually locks up in first gear, which I’m sure helps with fuel economy a lot. That said, the overall shift quality could be a little better, IMO. I’m no transmission expert, but I think it basically shifts “clutch-to-clutch” instead of using sprags like a traditional automatic, so it’s really sensitive to timings. If the second clutch engages too late, it’s in neutral for a bit. If it engages to early, it’s in two gears at the same time. For example, if you’re accelerating lightly and it’s about to shift, then you suddenly have to hit the accelerator harder, sometimes it feels like it has already committed to shifting under the lighter load and it almost feels like it’s in neutral for a split second before banging into the next gear. Not sure how much of this is related to the BMW shift maps or the transmission itself. All that said, the transmission has proven to be very reliable. People in the 335i community are putting well over 500 ft-lbs of torque through them and they seem to be holding up, and my car has 211,000 miles and it shifts the same as it did when I got it with 40,000 miles. Also, people with newer 5.0 Mustangs don’t seem to have many complaints, and it’s basically the same transmission.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y agoThe Japanese have a track record of not being able to develop complex software on a short timescale. Their culture and bureaucratic institutions are an impediment to new disruptive technologies. That is a big factor in why the Koreans and Chinese are eating their lunch in consumer electronics.
- hef19898 8y agoJust like Japan, Sony as a prominent example, did before with Europe and the US?
- ken 8y agoCompanies change. Mr Honda died a quarter century ago. Is that still the company philosophy? I asked my friend last week if his new generator was a Honda, and he told me it was a Subaru -- which was basically just as good since Honda just contracts out to Subaru for building all their small engines, anyway.
- ProfessorLayton 8y agoI won't claim to know what their current philosophy is, but I do think that going their own way is in large part what made them notable to begin with. They were known as the quirky Japanese automaker that made fun-to-drive (for the $$) cars. They did things like: - S2000: A powerful and lightweight naturally aspirated car with an insane redline of 9,000 rpm! - VTEC was Honda's solution to keeping displacement down, without sacrificing power and efficiency, and what made their engines so buzzy. - They were first to the hybrid game with the Insight (gen 1), beating Toyota's Prius to the market. - Until the early 2000s they were putting double-wishbone suspensions in their econoboxes. This is no longer the case, to the disdain of car enthusiasts and modders. You'll notice that they've stopped doing/stopped coming up with quirky innovations, leading them to become just another automaker.
- Fomite 8y agoI think the Fit remains a remarkable car from a design perspective.
- nradov 8y agoThat approach worked back when cars were simple, and mostly mechanical. But now the R&D cost of developing major automotive components has risen so high that smaller manufacturers just don't have the resources to go it alone any more. So they have to outsource or form partnerships in order to achieve sufficient economies of scale.
- stephengillie 8y agoMuch like the 1970s gas crunch, when American car makers couldn't innovate small cars fast enough, and bought Japanese car companies to bridge the gap.
- megablast 8y ago> automatic transmissions are on their way out Did you mean to say manual?
- bane 8y agoManuals have been out for a very long time, it's just some regions haven't cottoned on to it yet. Autos are also on the way out as newer transmission styles are rapidly replacing them...CVTs for example. But the latest gen hybrids don't even have that and most electrics are basically direct drive.
- jahewson 8y agoI think he’s referring to conventional automatic transmissions being replaced by CVTs due to size/weight/efficiency. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transm...
- taneq 8y agoAnd/or direct drive electrics.