11 ms·

It doesn't have to be crazy at work

300 points by kristianp 8y ago

lixtra 8y ago
I guess they do not mind but looking at the growth graph at the bottom seems like basecamp is plateauing.
- coldtea 8y ago
  And there's nothing wrong with that. Eternal growth (or worse, dominating a market) shouldn't be the goal, sustainability should.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  And? If they're a comfortable size and bringing in good money with a good work/life balance and job security like they lead people to believe then fair play to them.
  - lixtra 8y ago
    I just noticed. While they talked about comfortable size etc. all the time they were still explosively growing. It will be interesting to watch how they manage if their products really plateau. I wish them all the best and I can well imagine that they just manage to launch something new with explosive growth where they can feel cozy and comfortable sized.
    - daemin 8y ago
      I thought I read somewhere where they actually stopped all hiring for their company. It may have been this year even.
      - combatentropy 8y ago
        Yes, that's right, https://m.signalvnoise.com/things-are-going-so-well-were-doing-a-hiring-freeze-5f66372a4214 https://m.signalvnoise.com/things-are-going-so-well-were-doi... (January 31), but now they're hiring a data analyst, https://m.signalvnoise.com/basecamp-is-hiring-a-data-analyst-f15fbfc153ba https://m.signalvnoise.com/basecamp-is-hiring-a-data-analyst... (September 21).
- dominicr 8y ago
  If you consider a 35 degree slope a plateau then may I kindly suggest never applying for a job at a mapping company ;)
- gehsty 8y ago
  I think it would be fairer to say their rate of growth is slowing.
  - lixtra 8y ago
    You're right. I used the term plateauing incorrectly. I wanted to say that they left the exponential growth regime and display a logistic growth regime that will eventually plateau.
    - wlll 8y ago
      ISTR (I worked there over three years ago) Growth rate spikes after new versions are released, The 2012 jump is Basecamp 2 and that really moved the needle, and late 2015 is Basecamp 3. There's interest and publicity and articles and stuff, and that trails off to a more "normal" growth rate. The leveling off you see from 2016 to present is likely an artefact fo this, the longer term growth rate is probably approximately a line fitted to the graph from 2012 and onwards.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  A (rough guesstimate) 25% growth over the span of two years is a very respectable growth for a company nearly 20 years old. It's comparable to Facebook and the chart has a very similar shape to FB: https://beta.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/facebook-historical-user-count-graph.png?w=680 https://beta.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/faceb...
__exit__ 8y ago
I read Rework and Remote (previous Jason/DHH books) an although full of common-sense ideas that I applauded, they were quite similar in terms of content. This new book seems to be kind of a mix of those previous books.
- csa 8y ago
  Some people still haven’t heard the message. It’s possible that a new book released at a new time can reach a new(?)audience that will have he potential to adjust their behavior.
  - __exit__ 8y ago
    The message may be heard, but putting it into practice is the more difficult task in my opinion. Changing a whole company's (either big or small) policy regarding meetings/working hours/etc... is quite a challenge Still, the new book's cover may attract an audience that is not familiar with DHH/Jason/Basecamp's opinions on work/life balance.
    - dominicr 8y ago
      Yes, company dynamics are really complex and this book will only have an effect if the people reading it are the company leaders. But they're also reading "10 habits of successful CEOs" articles that tell them to wake up at 4am to send emails! Ultimately correlation isn't causation. Working 40 hours doesn't guarantee success by itself and neither does waking up at 4am.
  - quickthrower2 8y ago
    It might take 10's or 100's of years for the culture shift to happen (in a similar way to political opinions changing). Peopleware [1] came out in 1987 for example, so in theory we should have learnt something in 30 years. Software is also kind of a victim of it's own success. Once a software company has some traction, if lucky, it can be run badly and still be very profitable. The owners may have some hubris as to their business prowess and they know how things should be done. They may not be willing to change and question themselves, and want to change the culture. They'll probably not take time to take in all of that exit interview feedback, and analyse it and improve from it. I think a lot of companies are run on intuition and not evidence based or well thought out ideas. That is why managers think a noisy office is better, I've worked in offices with the obligatory "why's it so quiet in here, don't you guys ever talk" joke from senior management on many occasion. Belittling of developers and putting them in their place as the 'misfits' of the organization. And as time as gone on time tracking has gone from reasonable to insane. "Why did you spend X hours on this JIRA ticket". JIRA has given management the data to take mismanagement to the next level. To change this mindset requires these people to retire or go out of business, and for fresh blood who have learned these lessons to take over. That's going to take about another 30 years and hopefully the next generation will do better. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopleware:_Productive_Projects_and_Teams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopleware:_Productive_Project...
alexashka 8y ago
I think Basecamp reflects what happens when smart, sensible people without a chip on their shoulder, simply live their life. They're not stepping on heads to get ahead. They're not in the business of 'motivating' unhappy people who don't like what they do, into fulfilling quotas. It's great. It reminds me of this coffee-shop that charges 10$ for a slice of pie. It's not busy, polite service, tasty pie. All the while I am well aware that such places will always remain niche. I can't help but feel a little sad, and yet, everything seems to point to people being fine with McDonalds, Kardashians, and the opposite of what Basecamp preaches.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  > ...without a chip on their shoulder... I presume you don't follow DHH on social media ;)
  - gaius 8y ago
    What does he say? I follow him on Insta and it’s all cars and office furniture as far as I can tell.
    - jschulenklopper 8y ago
      Just follow him on Medium or Twitter. There are hardly cars, houses or office furniture there :-)
  - jschulenklopper 8y ago
    You should then follow him on textual media as well. Sure, on Instagram it's mainly nice pictures of houses and cars, but I don't see the 'chip on his shoulder'. Au contraire, he remains honest and realistic about his decisions, his achievements and the (monetary) rewards as a result of those. Some because of luck, some because of common wisdom (often against the grain), some because of just being smart. It's a refreshing view. So, please read some material from him on Medium. Don't judge a person on just an Instagram profile...
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
At least the website is readable. The email I got yesterday was white on red and gave me a headache after about 30 seconds of reading!
- flukus 8y ago
  You can even see the content without loading a million third party scripts. A lot could learn from this wizardry.
DanielBMarkham 8y ago
I admire these guys for their values. I wish more companies were like this. I also understand that teaching how the sausage is made is a big part of their marketing strategy. That creates a little bit of a conflict where it's easier not to show the warts than it is to talk about how awesome things are. Companies that market in this fashion do the rest of the world a great service. They show us how things could be. We need to understand and acknowledge that conflict to keep a balanced view. The only thing I found missing from the nice essay full of pleasing things to read was this: we do this to ourselves. It's not some evil corporate manager-types, although things can look like that. You can get just as stressed out because your stack is whack as you can because your schedule is whack. The schedule is this "external" thing you can yell at. The stack just wheedles away at you, minute-by-minute. I've also seen a lot of successful teams slowly turn the screws -- on themselves. Ego takes a lot of forms. A little success can make you want a lot more. I really, really like the calm competence view of creating technology. The best folks I've worked with were smart, friendly, easy-going, and calm. The worst ones were smart, self-centered, authoritarian, and chaotic. Oddly enough, people who aren't-so-smart fall equally in both camps. I've seen some really good teams where nobody looked like they knew a lot. They just made it work and had fun doing it. I've also seen teams that should be building the next Mars base that weren't able to pick the toppings for their next pizza order.
- EliRivers 8y ago
  I wish more companies were like this. I suspect a great many companies are like this. I have never worked anywhere that any of that particular hit-list was expected. There's a bubble in which all this is "normal", but that bubble is small.
  - DanielBMarkham 8y ago
    I had a team a year ago in SV where I had to walk-off the gig for a couple of days. They were putting in 60+ hours a week, sleeping at work. I tried to counsel the CEO and CIO, both of whom had been quite successful previously and were determined to "win at all costs" this time around. They both resisted the procedure. So I left. I told them that once they came back to being sane again, I'd be happy to come back and help them not do that again, but I wasn't going to hang out and assist them in this insanity. My guess is that it depends on whether you count by companies or developers. By companies it's probably quite prevalent. By developers? Not so much. But these are the kinds of things companies don't admit to themselves or others. On the flip side of this, there's a ton of apathy in this business as well. Neither extreme is healthy.
jacknews 8y ago
I think a lot of craziness in the industry is caused by a rush to get rich. That doesn't seem to be on the table for Basecamp employees, who get fixed salaries by grade, no real stake, etc, and apparently no plan to go public. I think the following is also relevant, since work stress/craziness is about much more than workload: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/pressure-proof/201308/six-sources-burnout-work https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/pressure-proof/20130...
- carlivar 8y ago
  Yes, this is a good point. DHH had some rants recently on Twitter about Brian Acton selling out his company to Facebook. I found it interesting that the lifetime financial security for all WhatsApp employees wasn't mentioned. It's not clear to me how DHH gets the money for his auto racing hobby. Perhaps it has to be crazy at work for others to have a shot at hobbies like this, especially if you aren't the founders.
  - LaGrange 8y ago
    > It's not clear to me how DHH gets the money for his auto racing hobby. Judging by his clothes, the answer seems to be "sponsors." And, looking at the things like race tracks and racing schools, it seems like entering auto racing isn't exactly cheap, but for _well paid_ folk - as Basecamp seems to be — it's far from unachievable. No surprise really, I know people working things like support for generic companies getting into airplanes. And, thanks to the attitude of work/life balance, vacation and health coverage (I mean, obviously I'm not talking about the US), they have the time and security to actually pursue the hobbies.
  - laverick 8y ago
    About 2 years after starting Basecamp DHH & his biz partner sold a minority stake to Jeff Bezos for "a few million dollars each". https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-day-i-became-a-millionaire-55d7dc4d8293 https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-day-i-became-a-millionaire-55...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
kjullien 8y ago
I like the fact they give away free stickers to promote the book! I think it is a great initiative.
- dominicr 8y ago
  Maybe other people could do that too and we could all start putting stickers on our laptops ;)
  - kjullien 8y ago
    Every sticker I ever had was bought or given at a conference, I never saw somebody promoting anything online with a free giveaway of physical items.
ksec 8y ago
If there is anything I can criticise about Basecamp it would be their Graphics Design Style and Layout. First being too cartoonish and second being something isn't quite right. I think DHH is kind of visionary and philosophical, you might not agree with every thing about his coding style and Ruby usage. But a lot of things he said tends to make lots of sense from a grand perspective. Idea / Concept Compression, working style, life etc. Unfortunately not everyone is as well off as him and gets to do whatever he wants. The industry, not just IT but in every other sector in general ( As a matter of fact I don't even know which industry isn't crazy apart form Government civil servants jobs ), are all crazy for more hours and more work.
- nodelessness 8y ago
  > First being too cartoonish and second being something isn't quite right. What do you think is the significance of that for Basecamp? Poor branding? Poor conversion? What's the business impact?
  - ksec 8y ago
    I don't have a number to say as a percentage, but it definitely have some impact. Not the first time I precent it to upper management and Asana won purely based on "looks". ( You see, those in the management don't actually "DO" anything, they look at things and if they dislike it they will disprove it, whether a tools is decent to use is not their problem ) I felt Basecamp are aiming at different market to Asana. Basecamp are for consultants or freelances with many clients. Asana are aiming at SMEs and Enterprise.
dominicr 8y ago
The workaholic side of me used to like the crazy but the aging me likes a better work/life balance. I'm British but recently moved to Oslo, Norway. Until recently I worked at a start-up incubator where there was talk about the 'extreme' start up work life. For Norwegians that meant that they left the office at 5pm instead of 3:30 or 4pm. By 6pm the hot desk office space was normally empty and the lights switched themselves off. It's a tiny industry here and no-one is looking to build the next facebook, they're just looking to do interesting work whilst also having a good life.
- sgift 8y ago
  > It's a tiny industry here and no-one is looking to build the next facebook, they're just looking to do interesting work whilst also having a good life. This is something I miss in all the "Europe doesn't have the next Google, Europe doesn't have the next Facebook" discussions: Is this really a problem? We could if we wanted, but why would we want? Working like crazy for .. what?
  - rolodato 8y ago
    Those discussions/articles are mostly started by Americans, not Europeans.
  - Swizec 8y ago
    > We could if we wanted, but why would we want? Working like crazy for .. what? To quote an EU politician I recently had the random chance to have lunch with: "Europe is realizing that these big corporations, they don't have our people's best interests in mind. We can't even begin the conversation on privacy and stuff like that because the American baseline for what is normal and ethical is so far off what we consider ethical there's no way to have a real dialogue. So we're taking measures to protect our citizens, starting with GDPR" Perhaps if Europe had more Googles and Facebooks, they wouldn't monopolize the internet and the playing field could be more even. Asking what's the point of having the Googels and Facebooks and Amazons is like asking 100 years ago "Why should Europe need a car industry" Because consumers want that stuff and they're gonna get it somewhere. And if they get it somewhere else, that somewhere else gains a certain degree of power.
mnm1 8y ago
> Sustained exhaustion is not a badge of honor, it’s a mark of stupidity. I couldn't have said it better myself. Many young workers don't yet know this and that's likely why companies like FB and the like prefer them. Once one picks up on this and the fact that companies don't care about their employees, one can relax and pick up much better jobs (assuming one has a pick at all). Ruining one's health for a minor bump in the employer's profits (if that) is indeed extremely stupid. Especially when you consider the cost of healthcare and the almost certainty of losing it (in the US) if one gets sick enough to be unable to work. This is the kind of thing that should be taught in high school.
- sharadov 8y ago
  From what I hear that is not a norm in FB or Google, maybe in certain teams. They actually have good work-life balance.
jahaja 8y ago
I'm sorry, but I can't help but feel disheartened at the sad state of affairs when 8 hour days, 40 hours per week can be sold as something pseudo-revolutionary. This industry is in dire need of some humble pie, and for employees to realize, to a greater extent than today, that they're workers, not business partners. Do people really think that a new plumbing firm calling itself a startup would enable them to hire cheap plumbers working 50% unpaid overtime for a half-arsed profit-share promise that maybe this new posh area will cause a great expansion in the future? No, the plumbers would know they're getting shafted. Anyway, maybe this book can be a step in a humbling direction. The last two books were indeed filled with a lot of common sense that should be repeated.
- chobeat 8y ago
  woah woah woah, calm down. That sounds like... socialism... There's no such a thing in software engineering. Engineering is free from politics, labour issues, ethical concerns and all that pseudo-intellectual bullshit. Engineering is just engineering man. A guy with a fedora on reddit told me so.
  - sctb 8y ago
    Please don't post fluffy sarcastic flamebait here. We'd like to have discussions from which we can learn something. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mhjas 8y ago
  Decent working condition have always been revolutionary for a large part of the world. Overall things haven't changed, at least not for the better. I like a lot of what dhh says, but I think the weak part of his arguments is probably practicality. There are plenty of people that agree with him in principle, but are destined to make other choices because of the way the world works. That said, if there ever was a time when quality of life mattered it is now. I am convinced that whichever country can scale quality of life will have success. Pretty much everyone of the established startup hubs, and even the non-established ones, are essentially limited not by knowledge, capital or workforce but quality of life. When cities say they lack companies, or companies say they lack workforce, or the workforce say they lack salary, it is really that money isn't buying them the quality of life needed to be effective.
rguzman 8y ago
honest question: is work that crazy for most people in the software industry? it really doesn't square with my personal experience. from what i've seen, most people work 10ish to 6ish under very relaxed conditions like eg a comfortable lunch and a few breaks during the day. i've also noticed that people tend to be available online outside of their work hours, but nobody really expects that nor gets mad when someone isn't. this was true for all of our employees when i was CTO/co-founder and also for us founders most of the time. this was also true when i worked at a Series A startup and it is true in my team at Google, and it seems it'd be similar in most other teams, too. note that i'm not taking a stance on whether what i described above is good or bad, it's just what i've observed.
- matwood 8y ago
  I think every company is just different. Some are really hard driving and milking their employees. Others are too chill (I had a friend quit a place because people played so much he felt his skills deteriorating). My guess is that what you and I have experienced (mostly relaxed environment, get work done, nothing crazy) is probably closer to the norm. There is also a bit of entitlement sometimes (needs an office exactly this size, with this type of lamp bulb, < 5dbs of sound, work hours from 10:06 to 6:06 b/c that is fits the optimal biorhythm with the moon, etc...). Which can make it hard to know if the company is really a problem, or is the employee just difficult?
  - rejschaap 8y ago
    The last three companies I've worked at stated it something like this: you work an average 8 hours per day, we want you to be in the office between 10 am and 4 pm from Tuesday to Thursday so it is not impossible to schedule meetings. Works pretty well for everyone involved.
- a_imho 8y ago
  No, but we pretend it is.
- alexandercrohde 8y ago
  Well, I haven't worked at any places that expected me to work more than 50 hours a week. And none of even explicitly said an amount of hours. But I have worked at places where there was extreme and contrived pressure to meet artificial goals set by managers with no engineering input. For example, I have worked at places that have stipulated no vacation without prior approval, and had multiple-month windows where vacation wasn't approved. Most places I worked weren't like that, but a few were very unpleasant and not any more efficient for it.
justaguyhere 8y ago
I find it amusing that a uber successful and smart person writing some common sense stuff as if it is new. Everything he says is true, but what is missing here is that much of the world's population is not in a position to negotiate. In many places it is simply put up or leave. How much choice does a single parent or a 60 year old person with no special skills have? Those of us in software have it relatively better than the rest, but it is still the same, just on different level. Over the last 18 years we’ve been working at making Basecamp a calm company Awesome. But this is one rare exception. Not many companies are going to do this, even if they can. The only way to fix this is saner laws, unions etc.
- indigochill 8y ago
  >The only way to fix this is saner laws, unions etc. I'm in a union (not by choice, but because they sign off on my work permit renewal forms). They don't represent me. I once almost needed to strike for an issue totally unrelated to anyone I worked with. I'm not saying unions don't work, necessarily. But I do think "unions are the answer" is an oversimplification. Like any organization, they can be run well or poorly. If software engineers were unionized, they'd be complaining about bad union policies.
  - justaguyhere 8y ago
    Fair enough. I should've phrased it as "one of the ways to fix..." I just wanted to say that we can't expect companies to suddenly care for their employees. Basecamp is an exception and a very rare one. Most companies just don't care.
    - indigochill 8y ago
      Yep, totally agree with all that. The way I'd really like to see is that people with this ethos of care towards employees start companies. And as seems to be Basecamp's position, that starts with funding. If you're not beholden to investors demanding certain growth goals, then you have the freedom to cultivate this kind of environment. My opinion is the problem's not collective bargaining or regulation, but that most companies default to taking money from investors for quick growth (which is then expected to be maintained) rather than growing slowly and organically from customer purchases like Basecamp.
petercooper 8y ago
Few people would disagree with having a healthier work/life balance, but you need to be careful to not conflate the approach with the success of the authors. People who've gone from nothing to becoming wealthy by not having meetings, working less, and maintaining a relaxing lifestyle are the exception, not the rule. If you want a shot at being as wealthy as they are, their advice is not going to help your odds, although you may well have a better life by other measures.
- mistersquid 8y ago
  > If you want a shot at being as wealthy as they are, their advice is not going to help your odds, although you may well have a better life by other measures. Your point about not conflating their lifestyles with their financial security is well taken. Their point is not about wealth but about health, not about money but about life. Rather than money grossly gathered, they propose a life well lived. However, it's important to keep in mind the obverse, which is that one should not strictly dissociate their lifestyles from their financial security. Recognizing that lifestyle and wealth are uncorrelated (or loosely correlated) avoids the facile prediction that overwork will yield wealth when, in reality, overwork most often yields a miserable, dissatisfying life without extravagant wealth.
  - petercooper 8y ago
    Rather than money grossly gathered, they propose a life well lived. Agreed, but I find such advice feels weird from people who are extremely wealthy. It's a bit like if a top chef did a book on cooking healthy meals - it might be packed with great practices, but the advice would come from a place of advantage that could cause blind spots in giving advice to someone with limited access to fresh groceries, a tight budget, and perhaps several dependents with varying tastes. when, in reality, overwork most often yields a miserable, dissatisfying life without extravagant wealth. I can't really disagree as such, but while I'm only one data point (who comes from a non-rich, working class background) I can't think of anyone I know personally who worked really hard and that made their life functionally worse, although I guess dissatisfaction is hard to measure from the outside. I certainly know people who've reached a certain point and then improved their lives by working less thereafter, but I still think any advice to work less or chill out early in your career is pretty dangerous ground for younger people to consider.
erinaceousjones 8y ago
I've only ever worked in the UK public sector (almost-a-civil-servant), at two places which were partly government funded, partly academic and partly a business. I've heard lots about this "proud to overwork" style culture but never seen much of it; not from most of my friends either. Is this a cultural thing, i.e. we're not so proud about overworking ourselves in the UK? Or is it because I'm outside of the tech bubble -- my work as a software engineer is mostly supporting science and research rather than pushing business products through the door before the next VC funding round? Or is it just that we are generally more relaxed in an academic environment, where the salaries aren't so lucrative but we get appreciable amounts of time off?
- mostlystatic 8y ago
  I'm also in the UK and my experience is similar. Part of that may be because I've mostly worked as a contractor, where you tend to be a replaceable cog providing 8 hours of service a day. But most of the permanent employees also went home around 6pm. I don't think the consequences for going home at the end of your workday are very severe. You don't need to stay late if production isn't down. If production is down at 6pm that shouldn't have happened and you need to adjust your process. At my last permanent role I spent a lot of time telling people to stop deploying the daily build after 3pm. (I understand that there's project managers pressuring them, but that doesn't justify ruining anyone's evening.) If you can't get your work done during work hours you should fix that, not work longer hours.
dmartinez 8y ago
The sentiment here is a response to a minority opinion that has deeper pockets than the majority opinion. It is interesting because VC math forces a level of intensity that Basecamp doesn’t have to contend with. So in one sense, the message can be interpreted as “don’t take VC funding”. The more obvious interpretation is that, regardless of financing, work should never dominate your life. But this is can be argued against, since some forms of financing like venture take away your control of work intensity. The act of ceding voting power in your company is a step closer towards the work style that Jason and DHH are protesting.
- alexandercrohde 8y ago
  Exactly. VCs' self-interest will always be to extract maximum work out of engineers, hoping to make themselves from 100-millionaires into billionaires. If you're going to work at such a place then acknowledge you may be getting paid to put up with tantrums of the ultra-rich when their money likely goes away (as most startups fail). Don't internalize it.
  - fsloth 8y ago
    "VCs' self-interest will always be to extract maximum work out of engineers," And engineers are completely in their right to disagree to insane working hours. What's the additional leverage VC:s hold? I've never understood this propensity to claim that it's impossible to avoid insane working hours. Sure it is. Just don't do it.
- fsloth 8y ago
  "some forms of financing like venture take away your control of work intensity." How is that? I find it unlikely any VC would go to court just because founder insists on sane working hours for employees. Or is there some leverage here I'm completely missing?
  - bakli 8y ago
    VC will not participate in the next round, or vote favourably with founders in next board meeting, or spread false news about work ethics or some other crap, which can lead to a down round. Have seen all the three happen.
dawhizkid 8y ago
I think it’s more that people say they are much busier than they really are because it makes them seem important
smrtinsert 8y ago
DHH, that's a name I haven't seen in a while.
ken 8y ago
By the description here, it seems (like "Peopleware") that this is a book that doesn't offer individual contributors anything they don't already know, and it would be great if we could get our managers to read it, but our managers won't read it, or if they do, they'll say "It sounds nice but we can't do any of that here because ..." Is it?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
amai 8y ago
A lot of the things the authors mention are standard in Europe. In Europe you have 25 days of paid vacation. Parental leave of > 6 months. Working times < 40 hours. 5 day work weeks. Payed sick leave. Works councils, etc.
amai 8y ago
For a really revolutionary way of organizing a work place read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(book) See also: https://semcostyle.org/ https://semcostyle.org/

300 points by kristianp 8y ago

lixtra 8y ago

I guess they do not mind but looking at the growth graph at the bottom seems like basecamp is plateauing.

coldtea 8y ago
And there's nothing wrong with that. Eternal growth (or worse, dominating a market) shouldn't be the goal, sustainability should.
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
And? If they're a comfortable size and bringing in good money with a good work/life balance and job security like they lead people to believe then fair play to them.
- lixtra 8y ago
  I just noticed. While they talked about comfortable size etc. all the time they were still explosively growing. It will be interesting to watch how they manage if their products really plateau. I wish them all the best and I can well imagine that they just manage to launch something new with explosive growth where they can feel cozy and comfortable sized.
  - daemin 8y ago
    I thought I read somewhere where they actually stopped all hiring for their company. It may have been this year even.
    - combatentropy 8y ago
      Yes, that's right, https://m.signalvnoise.com/things-are-going-so-well-were-doing-a-hiring-freeze-5f66372a4214 https://m.signalvnoise.com/things-are-going-so-well-were-doi... (January 31), but now they're hiring a data analyst, https://m.signalvnoise.com/basecamp-is-hiring-a-data-analyst-f15fbfc153ba https://m.signalvnoise.com/basecamp-is-hiring-a-data-analyst... (September 21).
dominicr 8y ago
If you consider a 35 degree slope a plateau then may I kindly suggest never applying for a job at a mapping company ;)
gehsty 8y ago
I think it would be fairer to say their rate of growth is slowing.
- lixtra 8y ago
  You're right. I used the term plateauing incorrectly. I wanted to say that they left the exponential growth regime and display a logistic growth regime that will eventually plateau.
  - wlll 8y ago
    ISTR (I worked there over three years ago) Growth rate spikes after new versions are released, The 2012 jump is Basecamp 2 and that really moved the needle, and late 2015 is Basecamp 3. There's interest and publicity and articles and stuff, and that trails off to a more "normal" growth rate. The leveling off you see from 2016 to present is likely an artefact fo this, the longer term growth rate is probably approximately a line fitted to the graph from 2012 and onwards.
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
A (rough guesstimate) 25% growth over the span of two years is a very respectable growth for a company nearly 20 years old. It's comparable to Facebook and the chart has a very similar shape to FB: https://beta.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/facebook-historical-user-count-graph.png?w=680 https://beta.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/faceb...

__exit__ 8y ago

I read Rework and Remote (previous Jason/DHH books) an although full of common-sense ideas that I applauded, they were quite similar in terms of content. This new book seems to be kind of a mix of those previous books.

csa 8y ago
Some people still haven’t heard the message. It’s possible that a new book released at a new time can reach a new(?)audience that will have he potential to adjust their behavior.
- __exit__ 8y ago
  The message may be heard, but putting it into practice is the more difficult task in my opinion. Changing a whole company's (either big or small) policy regarding meetings/working hours/etc... is quite a challenge Still, the new book's cover may attract an audience that is not familiar with DHH/Jason/Basecamp's opinions on work/life balance.
  - dominicr 8y ago
    Yes, company dynamics are really complex and this book will only have an effect if the people reading it are the company leaders. But they're also reading "10 habits of successful CEOs" articles that tell them to wake up at 4am to send emails! Ultimately correlation isn't causation. Working 40 hours doesn't guarantee success by itself and neither does waking up at 4am.
- quickthrower2 8y ago
  It might take 10's or 100's of years for the culture shift to happen (in a similar way to political opinions changing). Peopleware [1] came out in 1987 for example, so in theory we should have learnt something in 30 years. Software is also kind of a victim of it's own success. Once a software company has some traction, if lucky, it can be run badly and still be very profitable. The owners may have some hubris as to their business prowess and they know how things should be done. They may not be willing to change and question themselves, and want to change the culture. They'll probably not take time to take in all of that exit interview feedback, and analyse it and improve from it. I think a lot of companies are run on intuition and not evidence based or well thought out ideas. That is why managers think a noisy office is better, I've worked in offices with the obligatory "why's it so quiet in here, don't you guys ever talk" joke from senior management on many occasion. Belittling of developers and putting them in their place as the 'misfits' of the organization. And as time as gone on time tracking has gone from reasonable to insane. "Why did you spend X hours on this JIRA ticket". JIRA has given management the data to take mismanagement to the next level. To change this mindset requires these people to retire or go out of business, and for fresh blood who have learned these lessons to take over. That's going to take about another 30 years and hopefully the next generation will do better. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopleware:_Productive_Projects_and_Teams https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peopleware:_Productive_Project...

alexashka 8y ago

I think Basecamp reflects what happens when smart, sensible people without a chip on their shoulder, simply live their life. They're not stepping on heads to get ahead. They're not in the business of 'motivating' unhappy people who don't like what they do, into fulfilling quotas. It's great. It reminds me of this coffee-shop that charges 10$ for a slice of pie. It's not busy, polite service, tasty pie. All the while I am well aware that such places will always remain niche. I can't help but feel a little sad, and yet, everything seems to point to people being fine with McDonalds, Kardashians, and the opposite of what Basecamp preaches.

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
> ...without a chip on their shoulder... I presume you don't follow DHH on social media ;)
- gaius 8y ago
  What does he say? I follow him on Insta and it’s all cars and office furniture as far as I can tell.
  - jschulenklopper 8y ago
    Just follow him on Medium or Twitter. There are hardly cars, houses or office furniture there :-)
- jschulenklopper 8y ago
  You should then follow him on textual media as well. Sure, on Instagram it's mainly nice pictures of houses and cars, but I don't see the 'chip on his shoulder'. Au contraire, he remains honest and realistic about his decisions, his achievements and the (monetary) rewards as a result of those. Some because of luck, some because of common wisdom (often against the grain), some because of just being smart. It's a refreshing view. So, please read some material from him on Medium. Don't judge a person on just an Instagram profile...

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago

At least the website is readable. The email I got yesterday was white on red and gave me a headache after about 30 seconds of reading!

flukus 8y ago
You can even see the content without loading a million third party scripts. A lot could learn from this wizardry.

DanielBMarkham 8y ago

I admire these guys for their values. I wish more companies were like this. I also understand that teaching how the sausage is made is a big part of their marketing strategy. That creates a little bit of a conflict where it's easier not to show the warts than it is to talk about how awesome things are. Companies that market in this fashion do the rest of the world a great service. They show us how things could be. We need to understand and acknowledge that conflict to keep a balanced view. The only thing I found missing from the nice essay full of pleasing things to read was this: we do this to ourselves. It's not some evil corporate manager-types, although things can look like that. You can get just as stressed out because your stack is whack as you can because your schedule is whack. The schedule is this "external" thing you can yell at. The stack just wheedles away at you, minute-by-minute. I've also seen a lot of successful teams slowly turn the screws -- on themselves. Ego takes a lot of forms. A little success can make you want a lot more. I really, really like the calm competence view of creating technology. The best folks I've worked with were smart, friendly, easy-going, and calm. The worst ones were smart, self-centered, authoritarian, and chaotic. Oddly enough, people who aren't-so-smart fall equally in both camps. I've seen some really good teams where nobody looked like they knew a lot. They just made it work and had fun doing it. I've also seen teams that should be building the next Mars base that weren't able to pick the toppings for their next pizza order.

EliRivers 8y ago
I wish more companies were like this. I suspect a great many companies are like this. I have never worked anywhere that any of that particular hit-list was expected. There's a bubble in which all this is "normal", but that bubble is small.
- DanielBMarkham 8y ago
  I had a team a year ago in SV where I had to walk-off the gig for a couple of days. They were putting in 60+ hours a week, sleeping at work. I tried to counsel the CEO and CIO, both of whom had been quite successful previously and were determined to "win at all costs" this time around. They both resisted the procedure. So I left. I told them that once they came back to being sane again, I'd be happy to come back and help them not do that again, but I wasn't going to hang out and assist them in this insanity. My guess is that it depends on whether you count by companies or developers. By companies it's probably quite prevalent. By developers? Not so much. But these are the kinds of things companies don't admit to themselves or others. On the flip side of this, there's a ton of apathy in this business as well. Neither extreme is healthy.

jacknews 8y ago

I think a lot of craziness in the industry is caused by a rush to get rich. That doesn't seem to be on the table for Basecamp employees, who get fixed salaries by grade, no real stake, etc, and apparently no plan to go public. I think the following is also relevant, since work stress/craziness is about much more than workload: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/pressure-proof/201308/six-sources-burnout-work https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/pressure-proof/20130...

carlivar 8y ago
Yes, this is a good point. DHH had some rants recently on Twitter about Brian Acton selling out his company to Facebook. I found it interesting that the lifetime financial security for all WhatsApp employees wasn't mentioned. It's not clear to me how DHH gets the money for his auto racing hobby. Perhaps it has to be crazy at work for others to have a shot at hobbies like this, especially if you aren't the founders.
- LaGrange 8y ago
  > It's not clear to me how DHH gets the money for his auto racing hobby. Judging by his clothes, the answer seems to be "sponsors." And, looking at the things like race tracks and racing schools, it seems like entering auto racing isn't exactly cheap, but for _well paid_ folk - as Basecamp seems to be — it's far from unachievable. No surprise really, I know people working things like support for generic companies getting into airplanes. And, thanks to the attitude of work/life balance, vacation and health coverage (I mean, obviously I'm not talking about the US), they have the time and security to actually pursue the hobbies.
- laverick 8y ago
  About 2 years after starting Basecamp DHH & his biz partner sold a minority stake to Jeff Bezos for "a few million dollars each". https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-day-i-became-a-millionaire-55d7dc4d8293 https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-day-i-became-a-millionaire-55...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

kjullien 8y ago

I like the fact they give away free stickers to promote the book! I think it is a great initiative.

dominicr 8y ago
Maybe other people could do that too and we could all start putting stickers on our laptops ;)
- kjullien 8y ago
  Every sticker I ever had was bought or given at a conference, I never saw somebody promoting anything online with a free giveaway of physical items.

ksec 8y ago

If there is anything I can criticise about Basecamp it would be their Graphics Design Style and Layout. First being too cartoonish and second being something isn't quite right. I think DHH is kind of visionary and philosophical, you might not agree with every thing about his coding style and Ruby usage. But a lot of things he said tends to make lots of sense from a grand perspective. Idea / Concept Compression, working style, life etc. Unfortunately not everyone is as well off as him and gets to do whatever he wants. The industry, not just IT but in every other sector in general ( As a matter of fact I don't even know which industry isn't crazy apart form Government civil servants jobs ), are all crazy for more hours and more work.

nodelessness 8y ago
> First being too cartoonish and second being something isn't quite right. What do you think is the significance of that for Basecamp? Poor branding? Poor conversion? What's the business impact?
- ksec 8y ago
  I don't have a number to say as a percentage, but it definitely have some impact. Not the first time I precent it to upper management and Asana won purely based on "looks". ( You see, those in the management don't actually "DO" anything, they look at things and if they dislike it they will disprove it, whether a tools is decent to use is not their problem ) I felt Basecamp are aiming at different market to Asana. Basecamp are for consultants or freelances with many clients. Asana are aiming at SMEs and Enterprise.

dominicr 8y ago

The workaholic side of me used to like the crazy but the aging me likes a better work/life balance. I'm British but recently moved to Oslo, Norway. Until recently I worked at a start-up incubator where there was talk about the 'extreme' start up work life. For Norwegians that meant that they left the office at 5pm instead of 3:30 or 4pm. By 6pm the hot desk office space was normally empty and the lights switched themselves off. It's a tiny industry here and no-one is looking to build the next facebook, they're just looking to do interesting work whilst also having a good life.

sgift 8y ago
> It's a tiny industry here and no-one is looking to build the next facebook, they're just looking to do interesting work whilst also having a good life. This is something I miss in all the "Europe doesn't have the next Google, Europe doesn't have the next Facebook" discussions: Is this really a problem? We could if we wanted, but why would we want? Working like crazy for .. what?
- rolodato 8y ago
  Those discussions/articles are mostly started by Americans, not Europeans.
- Swizec 8y ago
  > We could if we wanted, but why would we want? Working like crazy for .. what? To quote an EU politician I recently had the random chance to have lunch with: "Europe is realizing that these big corporations, they don't have our people's best interests in mind. We can't even begin the conversation on privacy and stuff like that because the American baseline for what is normal and ethical is so far off what we consider ethical there's no way to have a real dialogue. So we're taking measures to protect our citizens, starting with GDPR" Perhaps if Europe had more Googles and Facebooks, they wouldn't monopolize the internet and the playing field could be more even. Asking what's the point of having the Googels and Facebooks and Amazons is like asking 100 years ago "Why should Europe need a car industry" Because consumers want that stuff and they're gonna get it somewhere. And if they get it somewhere else, that somewhere else gains a certain degree of power.

mnm1 8y ago

> Sustained exhaustion is not a badge of honor, it’s a mark of stupidity. I couldn't have said it better myself. Many young workers don't yet know this and that's likely why companies like FB and the like prefer them. Once one picks up on this and the fact that companies don't care about their employees, one can relax and pick up much better jobs (assuming one has a pick at all). Ruining one's health for a minor bump in the employer's profits (if that) is indeed extremely stupid. Especially when you consider the cost of healthcare and the almost certainty of losing it (in the US) if one gets sick enough to be unable to work. This is the kind of thing that should be taught in high school.

sharadov 8y ago
From what I hear that is not a norm in FB or Google, maybe in certain teams. They actually have good work-life balance.

jahaja 8y ago

I'm sorry, but I can't help but feel disheartened at the sad state of affairs when 8 hour days, 40 hours per week can be sold as something pseudo-revolutionary. This industry is in dire need of some humble pie, and for employees to realize, to a greater extent than today, that they're workers, not business partners. Do people really think that a new plumbing firm calling itself a startup would enable them to hire cheap plumbers working 50% unpaid overtime for a half-arsed profit-share promise that maybe this new posh area will cause a great expansion in the future? No, the plumbers would know they're getting shafted. Anyway, maybe this book can be a step in a humbling direction. The last two books were indeed filled with a lot of common sense that should be repeated.

chobeat 8y ago
woah woah woah, calm down. That sounds like... socialism... There's no such a thing in software engineering. Engineering is free from politics, labour issues, ethical concerns and all that pseudo-intellectual bullshit. Engineering is just engineering man. A guy with a fedora on reddit told me so.
- sctb 8y ago
  Please don't post fluffy sarcastic flamebait here. We'd like to have discussions from which we can learn something. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
mhjas 8y ago
Decent working condition have always been revolutionary for a large part of the world. Overall things haven't changed, at least not for the better. I like a lot of what dhh says, but I think the weak part of his arguments is probably practicality. There are plenty of people that agree with him in principle, but are destined to make other choices because of the way the world works. That said, if there ever was a time when quality of life mattered it is now. I am convinced that whichever country can scale quality of life will have success. Pretty much everyone of the established startup hubs, and even the non-established ones, are essentially limited not by knowledge, capital or workforce but quality of life. When cities say they lack companies, or companies say they lack workforce, or the workforce say they lack salary, it is really that money isn't buying them the quality of life needed to be effective.

rguzman 8y ago

honest question: is work that crazy for most people in the software industry? it really doesn't square with my personal experience. from what i've seen, most people work 10ish to 6ish under very relaxed conditions like eg a comfortable lunch and a few breaks during the day. i've also noticed that people tend to be available online outside of their work hours, but nobody really expects that nor gets mad when someone isn't. this was true for all of our employees when i was CTO/co-founder and also for us founders most of the time. this was also true when i worked at a Series A startup and it is true in my team at Google, and it seems it'd be similar in most other teams, too. note that i'm not taking a stance on whether what i described above is good or bad, it's just what i've observed.

matwood 8y ago
I think every company is just different. Some are really hard driving and milking their employees. Others are too chill (I had a friend quit a place because people played so much he felt his skills deteriorating). My guess is that what you and I have experienced (mostly relaxed environment, get work done, nothing crazy) is probably closer to the norm. There is also a bit of entitlement sometimes (needs an office exactly this size, with this type of lamp bulb, < 5dbs of sound, work hours from 10:06 to 6:06 b/c that is fits the optimal biorhythm with the moon, etc...). Which can make it hard to know if the company is really a problem, or is the employee just difficult?
- rejschaap 8y ago
  The last three companies I've worked at stated it something like this: you work an average 8 hours per day, we want you to be in the office between 10 am and 4 pm from Tuesday to Thursday so it is not impossible to schedule meetings. Works pretty well for everyone involved.
a_imho 8y ago
No, but we pretend it is.
alexandercrohde 8y ago
Well, I haven't worked at any places that expected me to work more than 50 hours a week. And none of even explicitly said an amount of hours. But I have worked at places where there was extreme and contrived pressure to meet artificial goals set by managers with no engineering input. For example, I have worked at places that have stipulated no vacation without prior approval, and had multiple-month windows where vacation wasn't approved. Most places I worked weren't like that, but a few were very unpleasant and not any more efficient for it.

justaguyhere 8y ago

I find it amusing that a uber successful and smart person writing some common sense stuff as if it is new. Everything he says is true, but what is missing here is that much of the world's population is not in a position to negotiate. In many places it is simply put up or leave. How much choice does a single parent or a 60 year old person with no special skills have? Those of us in software have it relatively better than the rest, but it is still the same, just on different level. Over the last 18 years we’ve been working at making Basecamp a calm company Awesome. But this is one rare exception. Not many companies are going to do this, even if they can. The only way to fix this is saner laws, unions etc.

indigochill 8y ago
>The only way to fix this is saner laws, unions etc. I'm in a union (not by choice, but because they sign off on my work permit renewal forms). They don't represent me. I once almost needed to strike for an issue totally unrelated to anyone I worked with. I'm not saying unions don't work, necessarily. But I do think "unions are the answer" is an oversimplification. Like any organization, they can be run well or poorly. If software engineers were unionized, they'd be complaining about bad union policies.
- justaguyhere 8y ago
  Fair enough. I should've phrased it as "one of the ways to fix..." I just wanted to say that we can't expect companies to suddenly care for their employees. Basecamp is an exception and a very rare one. Most companies just don't care.
  - indigochill 8y ago
    Yep, totally agree with all that. The way I'd really like to see is that people with this ethos of care towards employees start companies. And as seems to be Basecamp's position, that starts with funding. If you're not beholden to investors demanding certain growth goals, then you have the freedom to cultivate this kind of environment. My opinion is the problem's not collective bargaining or regulation, but that most companies default to taking money from investors for quick growth (which is then expected to be maintained) rather than growing slowly and organically from customer purchases like Basecamp.

petercooper 8y ago

Few people would disagree with having a healthier work/life balance, but you need to be careful to not conflate the approach with the success of the authors. People who've gone from nothing to becoming wealthy by not having meetings, working less, and maintaining a relaxing lifestyle are the exception, not the rule. If you want a shot at being as wealthy as they are, their advice is not going to help your odds, although you may well have a better life by other measures.

mistersquid 8y ago
> If you want a shot at being as wealthy as they are, their advice is not going to help your odds, although you may well have a better life by other measures. Your point about not conflating their lifestyles with their financial security is well taken. Their point is not about wealth but about health, not about money but about life. Rather than money grossly gathered, they propose a life well lived. However, it's important to keep in mind the obverse, which is that one should not strictly dissociate their lifestyles from their financial security. Recognizing that lifestyle and wealth are uncorrelated (or loosely correlated) avoids the facile prediction that overwork will yield wealth when, in reality, overwork most often yields a miserable, dissatisfying life without extravagant wealth.
- petercooper 8y ago
  Rather than money grossly gathered, they propose a life well lived. Agreed, but I find such advice feels weird from people who are extremely wealthy. It's a bit like if a top chef did a book on cooking healthy meals - it might be packed with great practices, but the advice would come from a place of advantage that could cause blind spots in giving advice to someone with limited access to fresh groceries, a tight budget, and perhaps several dependents with varying tastes. when, in reality, overwork most often yields a miserable, dissatisfying life without extravagant wealth. I can't really disagree as such, but while I'm only one data point (who comes from a non-rich, working class background) I can't think of anyone I know personally who worked really hard and that made their life functionally worse, although I guess dissatisfaction is hard to measure from the outside. I certainly know people who've reached a certain point and then improved their lives by working less thereafter, but I still think any advice to work less or chill out early in your career is pretty dangerous ground for younger people to consider.

erinaceousjones 8y ago

I've only ever worked in the UK public sector (almost-a-civil-servant), at two places which were partly government funded, partly academic and partly a business. I've heard lots about this "proud to overwork" style culture but never seen much of it; not from most of my friends either. Is this a cultural thing, i.e. we're not so proud about overworking ourselves in the UK? Or is it because I'm outside of the tech bubble -- my work as a software engineer is mostly supporting science and research rather than pushing business products through the door before the next VC funding round? Or is it just that we are generally more relaxed in an academic environment, where the salaries aren't so lucrative but we get appreciable amounts of time off?

mostlystatic 8y ago
I'm also in the UK and my experience is similar. Part of that may be because I've mostly worked as a contractor, where you tend to be a replaceable cog providing 8 hours of service a day. But most of the permanent employees also went home around 6pm. I don't think the consequences for going home at the end of your workday are very severe. You don't need to stay late if production isn't down. If production is down at 6pm that shouldn't have happened and you need to adjust your process. At my last permanent role I spent a lot of time telling people to stop deploying the daily build after 3pm. (I understand that there's project managers pressuring them, but that doesn't justify ruining anyone's evening.) If you can't get your work done during work hours you should fix that, not work longer hours.

dmartinez 8y ago

The sentiment here is a response to a minority opinion that has deeper pockets than the majority opinion. It is interesting because VC math forces a level of intensity that Basecamp doesn’t have to contend with. So in one sense, the message can be interpreted as “don’t take VC funding”. The more obvious interpretation is that, regardless of financing, work should never dominate your life. But this is can be argued against, since some forms of financing like venture take away your control of work intensity. The act of ceding voting power in your company is a step closer towards the work style that Jason and DHH are protesting.

alexandercrohde 8y ago
Exactly. VCs' self-interest will always be to extract maximum work out of engineers, hoping to make themselves from 100-millionaires into billionaires. If you're going to work at such a place then acknowledge you may be getting paid to put up with tantrums of the ultra-rich when their money likely goes away (as most startups fail). Don't internalize it.
- fsloth 8y ago
  "VCs' self-interest will always be to extract maximum work out of engineers," And engineers are completely in their right to disagree to insane working hours. What's the additional leverage VC:s hold? I've never understood this propensity to claim that it's impossible to avoid insane working hours. Sure it is. Just don't do it.
fsloth 8y ago
"some forms of financing like venture take away your control of work intensity." How is that? I find it unlikely any VC would go to court just because founder insists on sane working hours for employees. Or is there some leverage here I'm completely missing?
- bakli 8y ago
  VC will not participate in the next round, or vote favourably with founders in next board meeting, or spread false news about work ethics or some other crap, which can lead to a down round. Have seen all the three happen.

dawhizkid 8y ago

I think it’s more that people say they are much busier than they really are because it makes them seem important

smrtinsert 8y ago

DHH, that's a name I haven't seen in a while.

ken 8y ago

By the description here, it seems (like "Peopleware") that this is a book that doesn't offer individual contributors anything they don't already know, and it would be great if we could get our managers to read it, but our managers won't read it, or if they do, they'll say "It sounds nice but we can't do any of that here because ..." Is it?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

amai 8y ago

A lot of the things the authors mention are standard in Europe. In Europe you have 25 days of paid vacation. Parental leave of > 6 months. Working times < 40 hours. 5 day work weeks. Payed sick leave. Works councils, etc.

amai 8y ago

For a really revolutionary way of organizing a work place read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_(book) See also: https://semcostyle.org/ https://semcostyle.org/