8 ms·

Did Amazon actually pay any worse or have worse working conditions than any other unskilled warehouse job? If so, why didn’t the employees change jobs? If not

Did Amazon actually pay any worse or have worse working conditions than any other unskilled warehouse job? If so, why didn’t the employees change jobs? If not, why is so much criticism directed at Amazon specifically, rather than at capitalism itself?

ceejayoz 8y ago
Surely "this trillion dollar company led by the world's richest man pays its workers peanuts" is a criticism of capitalism?
- umanwizard 8y ago
  You don’t think people have been criticizing Amazon specifically? I think they have.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    It's usually best, when criticizing something, to come prepared with concrete examples that demonstrate the issue you're talking about.
    - i_cant_speel 8y ago
      Here you go. I couldn't find anything that even registers in comparison to Amazon aside from Walmart. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=amazon%20warehouse%20workers,sears%20warehouse%20workers,meijer%20warehouse%20workers,walmart%20warehouse%20workers,home%20depot%20warehouse%20workers https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge...
      - ceejayoz 8y ago
        That makes a lot of sense - there aren't that many companies that "even register in comparison to Amazon". On top of that, most of the other world's-largest companies to compare against aren't as labor-dependent. (Meijer is a regional chain. Sears is nearly out-of-business. Using them as examples would fall flat.)
        i_cant_speel 8y ago
        I didn't realize Meijer was regional. And I thought Sears would be relevant since this is over the last five years (I guess I'm not sure how long they have been on the cusp of dying). For some reason I was struggling to come up with other chains on the spot, but obviously anyone clicking on the link is free to add their own.
grigjd3 8y ago
Well known target.
gbear605 8y ago
One possibility: the economy has a surplus of people who are looking for unskilled warehouse jobs, so even if other places had better quality, it was difficult to switch.
- moftz 8y ago
  I'm guessing for many people an Amazon warehouse job is stable employment near their small town that might not have many opportunities otherwise. Lots of small towns on this list and I can't imagine all of them had a booming economy before Amazon showed up. I'm not saying it's right to abuse your workers but $10/hr goes a long way in some places. It's not the same as working in a coal mine but it has some similar themes: small town, crappy job, relatively good pay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Amazon_locations#Fulfillment_and_warehousing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Amazon_locations#Fulfi...
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    >I'm guessing for many people an Amazon warehouse job is stable employment near their small town that might not have many opportunities otherwise. Not with the 2nd highest turnover of all Fortune 500's. https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employee-turnover-all-fortune-500-companies-1361257 https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employe...
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Well most fortune 500 companies don't have large numbers of minimum wage workers.
leesec 8y ago
I don't know why you're down voted. People like to shame Amazon/Walmart for their wages and working conditions, but I guarantee they're doing a lot of the exact same things as other companies who are less criticized, Target, Meijer, etc.. Like he said, Amazon has it's issues but the employees were free to quit and work at other similar positions in similar companies.
- fromanator 8y ago
  A year ago Target pledged to increase it's starting hourly wage to $15/hr by 2020. Currently starting pay is $12/hr Source: https://corporate.target.com/article/2017/09/minimum-hourly-wage https://corporate.target.com/article/2017/09/minimum-hourly-...
- chc 8y ago
  If I cheat on my wife, can I point to somebody else who's also cheating on their wife and that exempts me from criticism? Does somebody have to be doing a completely unique bad thing in order for people to be able to criticize them? People criticize Amazon and Walmart more than other companies because Amazon and Walmart are bigger than those other companies. That seems like an entirely fair reason for them to get more attention.
  - moftz 8y ago
    And if you cheat on your wife, it's not like she's going to divorce you that day and be married the next. Not everyone can just pickup and go to the other fulfillment warehouse next door. Amazon has their warehouses in a lot of small towns and I'm sure many of them were not doing so great before they showed up. People like having a job, they don't like having to shop around in a place where there might not be too many opportunities.
    - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
      > People like having a job, they don't like having to shop around in a place where there might not be too many opportunities. But that's the point, isn't it? They put the warehouse there because it's where the cheap labor is. If you shame them into not paying less than $15/hour then the next warehouse they open might as well be in a place where $15/hour is the prevailing wage, or it was $14.75 with low unemployment and their presence only bumps it up to $15, meanwhile everyone in the small town they originally would have built in goes to the unemployment line.
jrm5100 8y ago
> If so, why didn’t the employees change jobs? Monosopy.
- eeZah7Ux 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony ...why the downvotes?
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    Because it doesn't make any sense. Amazon doesn't dominate the jobs market.
    - mikepurvis 8y ago
      Depends how you look at it. The fulfillment centers are intentionally built out in the middle of nowhere where land and labour are both plentiful and inexpensive. If you live in such a place and Amazon is your employer, it may well be the case that you don't have a lot of other options, especially if what you came from was being on social assistance.
      - jcims 8y ago
        So now they will have an even stronger foothold in the depressed areas that they provided people with jobs. EMTs, teachers, etc are going to start taking jobs the Amazon because it pays better.
        prolikewh0a 8y ago
        >I'm guessing for many people an Amazon warehouse job is stable employment near their small town that might not have many opportunities otherwise. If they do their research, they'll realize they probably won't have a job for that long [1] and it would be preferable to stay in a position (that likely pays better with your examples) that is reliable. [1] https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employee-turnover-all-fortune-500-companies-1361257 https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employe...
swebs 8y ago
>If not, why is so much criticism directed at Amazon specifically, rather than at capitalism itself? What's the point of criticizing capitalism if there are no viable alternatives?
- ionised 8y ago
  Who says there are no viable alternatives?
  - swebs 8y ago
    None that I know of at least. If you can think of any, feel free to list them.
    - ionised 8y ago
      My point being that Capitalism has only been a thing for less 300 years, and what we have now isn't even capitalism. It's a warped perversion of it thanks to the inflated influence of ideologues like Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek, and the politicians that bought into their narrow-minded dogma hook, line and sinker. The worst damage they and their ilk did was to convince the entire political spectrum from the centre-left to the far right that there is no alternative to free market fundamentalism. I don't have a tried and tested alternative for you, but the idea that there are no alternatives is ludicrous to me. We just need to be actually looking for these alternatives, which the corporate world has no interest in doing and the politicians in their pockets merely continue the theatrics of fixing a system that blatantly isn't working for anyone but the amassers of capital. And before anyone loses their shit because I'm criticising the plutocracy we have allowed to be built in our names, nor I'm not a communist; no do I wish for a communist system.
      - Karunamon 8y ago
        If your criticism of capitalism is that it's not pure and not perfect, it's a non-sequitur since there are no pure and perfect ideologies, not in economics and not in government. I'm reminded of that comic with the cats on trial. Capitalism sucks in many ways, but it sucks a hell of a lot less than the alternatives we've tried. Same with democracy.
Broken_Hippo 8y ago
Did Amazon actually pay any worse or have worse working conditions than any other unskilled warehouse job? I'm not sure, but I think most places are OK with bathroom breaks. I could be wrong, though. If so, why didn't the employees change jobs? See, this is much more difficult. If the Amazon warehouse pays more than other jobs around - even if the pay is still low - it makes it much more difficult to leave the job. You still need food and electricity and so on. The same sort of thing happens if an employer pays less, yet offers things like decent, affordable health insurance (or health insurance at all). To leave a job simply because of working conditions is a position with a bit of leeway. If not, why is so much criticism directed at Amazon specifically, rather than at capitalism itself? It isn't directed only at Amazon, but large employers. I'm not sure why some of the anger isn't directed elsewhere, though. I'm not sure it is fully capitalism's fault, but more of lack of laws protecting folks from capitalism alongside adequate enforcement of those laws. It is easier, however, to direct anger at the company, who can change somewhat rapidly, rather than a government that is slow to act and rarely produces quality change for all.
- knightofmars 8y ago
  "I'm not sure it is fully capitalism's fault..." I agree. The problem here isn't capitalism. I also don't think it's lack of laws, it might be the opposite. People being abused by corporations who have manipulated laws in order to favor the corporations. Things such as "forced arbitration clauses", "anti-union legislation", and "non-compete clauses" are meant to strip the power away from workers. That we blame any economic system ignores the fact that humans are the root cause of any and all injustices in the systems we implement.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Whoa! not all of them are individual people's fault. There's still problems with the system itself including tyranny of the majority, systemic bias, inflation and recession to name the first few that occur to me.
  - knightofmars 8y ago
    _People_ are responsible for implementing the system and handling all of the problems with said system. We can't get around this. All systems have pros and cons. Pointing this out is akin to saying, "Water is wet." It's how people decide deal with those cons once a system hits reality that cause injustice in the system.
deleted 8y ago
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deleted 8y ago
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JansjoFromIkea 8y ago
If you criticise the entire system, it's pretty hard to identify a point of change that people will actually rally behind. If you specifically target a few of the more infamous culprits, by getting them to adjust you can establish a precedent and build from there. This move probably isn't going to win Bezos any new fans, but there'll probably be a reshift of focus towards some of the similarly bad employers.
wuz 8y ago
You're ignoring a major component - Warehouse jobs are likely location-dependent and switching incurs other, not obvious costs. Targeting all of capitalism is a good idea, but one that is pretty hard to change.
zuminator 8y ago
I imagine one reason Amazon is getting a lot of heat is because its stock is appreciating, Bezos is by far the world's wealthiest man and it's easy to claim that he and his fellow shareholders are getting rich of the backs of the workers. Walmart has gotten a lot of criticism over the years for the same reason. The fact that both retailers have a ton of workers also means there are plenty of hard luck stories to tell. In Amazon's case I know of at least one rather interesting book (Nomadland) to come out of stories about the camper communities that spring up around Amazon fulfillment centers.
dfilppi 8y ago
Because capitalism has nothing to do with it.

ceejayoz 8y ago

Surely "this trillion dollar company led by the world's richest man pays its workers peanuts" is a criticism of capitalism?

umanwizard 8y ago
You don’t think people have been criticizing Amazon specifically? I think they have.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  It's usually best, when criticizing something, to come prepared with concrete examples that demonstrate the issue you're talking about.
  - i_cant_speel 8y ago
    Here you go. I couldn't find anything that even registers in comparison to Amazon aside from Walmart. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=amazon%20warehouse%20workers,sears%20warehouse%20workers,meijer%20warehouse%20workers,walmart%20warehouse%20workers,home%20depot%20warehouse%20workers https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge...
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      That makes a lot of sense - there aren't that many companies that "even register in comparison to Amazon". On top of that, most of the other world's-largest companies to compare against aren't as labor-dependent. (Meijer is a regional chain. Sears is nearly out-of-business. Using them as examples would fall flat.)
      - i_cant_speel 8y ago
        I didn't realize Meijer was regional. And I thought Sears would be relevant since this is over the last five years (I guess I'm not sure how long they have been on the cusp of dying). For some reason I was struggling to come up with other chains on the spot, but obviously anyone clicking on the link is free to add their own.

grigjd3 8y ago

Well known target.

gbear605 8y ago

One possibility: the economy has a surplus of people who are looking for unskilled warehouse jobs, so even if other places had better quality, it was difficult to switch.

moftz 8y ago
I'm guessing for many people an Amazon warehouse job is stable employment near their small town that might not have many opportunities otherwise. Lots of small towns on this list and I can't imagine all of them had a booming economy before Amazon showed up. I'm not saying it's right to abuse your workers but $10/hr goes a long way in some places. It's not the same as working in a coal mine but it has some similar themes: small town, crappy job, relatively good pay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Amazon_locations#Fulfillment_and_warehousing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Amazon_locations#Fulfi...
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  >I'm guessing for many people an Amazon warehouse job is stable employment near their small town that might not have many opportunities otherwise. Not with the 2nd highest turnover of all Fortune 500's. https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employee-turnover-all-fortune-500-companies-1361257 https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employe...
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Well most fortune 500 companies don't have large numbers of minimum wage workers.

leesec 8y ago

I don't know why you're down voted. People like to shame Amazon/Walmart for their wages and working conditions, but I guarantee they're doing a lot of the exact same things as other companies who are less criticized, Target, Meijer, etc.. Like he said, Amazon has it's issues but the employees were free to quit and work at other similar positions in similar companies.

fromanator 8y ago
A year ago Target pledged to increase it's starting hourly wage to $15/hr by 2020. Currently starting pay is $12/hr Source: https://corporate.target.com/article/2017/09/minimum-hourly-wage https://corporate.target.com/article/2017/09/minimum-hourly-...
chc 8y ago
If I cheat on my wife, can I point to somebody else who's also cheating on their wife and that exempts me from criticism? Does somebody have to be doing a completely unique bad thing in order for people to be able to criticize them? People criticize Amazon and Walmart more than other companies because Amazon and Walmart are bigger than those other companies. That seems like an entirely fair reason for them to get more attention.
- moftz 8y ago
  And if you cheat on your wife, it's not like she's going to divorce you that day and be married the next. Not everyone can just pickup and go to the other fulfillment warehouse next door. Amazon has their warehouses in a lot of small towns and I'm sure many of them were not doing so great before they showed up. People like having a job, they don't like having to shop around in a place where there might not be too many opportunities.
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    > People like having a job, they don't like having to shop around in a place where there might not be too many opportunities. But that's the point, isn't it? They put the warehouse there because it's where the cheap labor is. If you shame them into not paying less than $15/hour then the next warehouse they open might as well be in a place where $15/hour is the prevailing wage, or it was $14.75 with low unemployment and their presence only bumps it up to $15, meanwhile everyone in the small town they originally would have built in goes to the unemployment line.

jrm5100 8y ago

> If so, why didn’t the employees change jobs? Monosopy.

eeZah7Ux 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony ...why the downvotes?
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  Because it doesn't make any sense. Amazon doesn't dominate the jobs market.
  - mikepurvis 8y ago
    Depends how you look at it. The fulfillment centers are intentionally built out in the middle of nowhere where land and labour are both plentiful and inexpensive. If you live in such a place and Amazon is your employer, it may well be the case that you don't have a lot of other options, especially if what you came from was being on social assistance.
    - jcims 8y ago
      So now they will have an even stronger foothold in the depressed areas that they provided people with jobs. EMTs, teachers, etc are going to start taking jobs the Amazon because it pays better.
      - prolikewh0a 8y ago
        >I'm guessing for many people an Amazon warehouse job is stable employment near their small town that might not have many opportunities otherwise. If they do their research, they'll realize they probably won't have a job for that long [1] and it would be preferable to stay in a position (that likely pays better with your examples) that is reliable. [1] https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employee-turnover-all-fortune-500-companies-1361257 https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employe...

swebs 8y ago

>If not, why is so much criticism directed at Amazon specifically, rather than at capitalism itself? What's the point of criticizing capitalism if there are no viable alternatives?

ionised 8y ago
Who says there are no viable alternatives?
- swebs 8y ago
  None that I know of at least. If you can think of any, feel free to list them.
  - ionised 8y ago
    My point being that Capitalism has only been a thing for less 300 years, and what we have now isn't even capitalism. It's a warped perversion of it thanks to the inflated influence of ideologues like Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek, and the politicians that bought into their narrow-minded dogma hook, line and sinker. The worst damage they and their ilk did was to convince the entire political spectrum from the centre-left to the far right that there is no alternative to free market fundamentalism. I don't have a tried and tested alternative for you, but the idea that there are no alternatives is ludicrous to me. We just need to be actually looking for these alternatives, which the corporate world has no interest in doing and the politicians in their pockets merely continue the theatrics of fixing a system that blatantly isn't working for anyone but the amassers of capital. And before anyone loses their shit because I'm criticising the plutocracy we have allowed to be built in our names, nor I'm not a communist; no do I wish for a communist system.
    - Karunamon 8y ago
      If your criticism of capitalism is that it's not pure and not perfect, it's a non-sequitur since there are no pure and perfect ideologies, not in economics and not in government. I'm reminded of that comic with the cats on trial. Capitalism sucks in many ways, but it sucks a hell of a lot less than the alternatives we've tried. Same with democracy.

Broken_Hippo 8y ago

Did Amazon actually pay any worse or have worse working conditions than any other unskilled warehouse job? I'm not sure, but I think most places are OK with bathroom breaks. I could be wrong, though. If so, why didn't the employees change jobs? See, this is much more difficult. If the Amazon warehouse pays more than other jobs around - even if the pay is still low - it makes it much more difficult to leave the job. You still need food and electricity and so on. The same sort of thing happens if an employer pays less, yet offers things like decent, affordable health insurance (or health insurance at all). To leave a job simply because of working conditions is a position with a bit of leeway. If not, why is so much criticism directed at Amazon specifically, rather than at capitalism itself? It isn't directed only at Amazon, but large employers. I'm not sure why some of the anger isn't directed elsewhere, though. I'm not sure it is fully capitalism's fault, but more of lack of laws protecting folks from capitalism alongside adequate enforcement of those laws. It is easier, however, to direct anger at the company, who can change somewhat rapidly, rather than a government that is slow to act and rarely produces quality change for all.

knightofmars 8y ago
"I'm not sure it is fully capitalism's fault..." I agree. The problem here isn't capitalism. I also don't think it's lack of laws, it might be the opposite. People being abused by corporations who have manipulated laws in order to favor the corporations. Things such as "forced arbitration clauses", "anti-union legislation", and "non-compete clauses" are meant to strip the power away from workers. That we blame any economic system ignores the fact that humans are the root cause of any and all injustices in the systems we implement.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Whoa! not all of them are individual people's fault. There's still problems with the system itself including tyranny of the majority, systemic bias, inflation and recession to name the first few that occur to me.
- knightofmars 8y ago
  _People_ are responsible for implementing the system and handling all of the problems with said system. We can't get around this. All systems have pros and cons. Pointing this out is akin to saying, "Water is wet." It's how people decide deal with those cons once a system hits reality that cause injustice in the system.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

JansjoFromIkea 8y ago

If you criticise the entire system, it's pretty hard to identify a point of change that people will actually rally behind. If you specifically target a few of the more infamous culprits, by getting them to adjust you can establish a precedent and build from there. This move probably isn't going to win Bezos any new fans, but there'll probably be a reshift of focus towards some of the similarly bad employers.

wuz 8y ago

You're ignoring a major component - Warehouse jobs are likely location-dependent and switching incurs other, not obvious costs. Targeting all of capitalism is a good idea, but one that is pretty hard to change.

zuminator 8y ago

I imagine one reason Amazon is getting a lot of heat is because its stock is appreciating, Bezos is by far the world's wealthiest man and it's easy to claim that he and his fellow shareholders are getting rich of the backs of the workers. Walmart has gotten a lot of criticism over the years for the same reason. The fact that both retailers have a ton of workers also means there are plenty of hard luck stories to tell. In Amazon's case I know of at least one rather interesting book (Nomadland) to come out of stories about the camper communities that spring up around Amazon fulfillment centers.

dfilppi 8y ago

Because capitalism has nothing to do with it.