7 ms·

You should assume that Equifax or the like will eventually implement a Chinese style social credit system which Banks, Employers and Landlords etc will use and

You should assume that Equifax or the like will eventually implement a Chinese style social credit system which Banks, Employers and Landlords etc will use and will be judged legal because "contracts" Your daily habits, used for who knows what purpose over the many decades remaining in your life, are worth a hell of a lot more than a latte.

zarriak 8y ago
I think you can reduce it down to the formula: You should assume [US entity] will eventually implement [Chinese Government method of social control].
- SheinhardtWigCo 8y ago
  How is that different to what OP said?
  - zarriak 8y ago
    The Chinese Government has many advanced methods of social control, from constant cctv surveillance, direct access to every social media network, massive censorship powers, etc. The comedown from empire isn't pretty and even if the trade war somehow delays China from superseding the US GDP it is somewhat inevitable. Although the social credit system probably comes to the US it is naive at best to assume that the vast majority of other forms of control that China has developed don't make their way over the Pacific.
snaky 8y ago
> While English-language media describe China’s social credit system as a Black Mirror-like authoritarian implementation, Chinese social media users seem to focus more on the advantages than the burdens. > At time of writing, Sesame Credit has 240.000 fans on its official Weibo account (@芝麻信用), where they promote the most recent benefits to users with higher credit scores, such as the possibility to get Hello Bicycle (哈罗单车) rental bikes without deposits. > Apart from Hello Bike or Ford, there is a myriad of other brands that seem happy to participate in the Sesame Credit system and the idea of Shared Economy. “Thumbs up for sharing [economy]!”, some netizens comment. https://www.whatsonweibo.com/open-sesame-social-credit-in-china-as-gate-to-punitive-measures-and-personal-perks/ https://www.whatsonweibo.com/open-sesame-social-credit-in-ch...
- wool_gather 8y ago
  What is the relevance of this? A tiny fraction of people, who are benefitting materially from the system, are happy about those benefits -- that's not shocking. And it has no bearing on the wider effects or ethics of the system.
  - snaky 8y ago
    > Study: More than two thirds of Chinese take a positive view of social credit systems in their country > Team of scholars at Freie Universität Berlin surveyed 2,200 citizens. Particularly high level of approval among older and better educated https://www.fu-berlin.de/en/presse/informationen/fup/2018/fup_18_198-studie-sozialkreditsystem-china/index.html https://www.fu-berlin.de/en/presse/informationen/fup/2018/fu...
enraged_camel 8y ago
>>Your daily habits, used for who knows what purpose over the many decades remaining in your life, are worth a hell of a lot more than a latte. The value of something does have a temporal component. You're talking about a cup of coffee now, when I desperately need caffeine, vs. the value of something (my personal data) far into the future.
- kwhitefoot 8y ago
  > desperately need caffeine You are surely not serious?
- gaius 8y ago
  People in general underestimate the cumulative effects of small things. Like “just one cookie” won’t make a difference but do it hundreds of times and you wake up one morning to discover that you’re fat and your clothes don’t fit and you’re not quite sure how it happened. That is how it is with giving away tiny pieces of personal data.
wufufufu 8y ago
I feel like this is viewed negatively because it has "Chinese" attached to it. Here's an article where a credit score based on phone habits is viewed positively: https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2017/02/22/woman-led-tala-raises-30-million-series-b-for-micro-loans-via-smartphone/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2017/02/22/woman-l...
- raquo 8y ago
  That's cute while it's a small experiment in faraway countries. Now imagine being unable to rent an apartment without running an app that tracks your calls and location 24/7. I don't know what "Chinese" has to do with the absurdity of this Panopticon.
  - wufufufu 8y ago
    When some people do it it's "empowering the underbanked" or "empowering an underserved market". When China does it, it's "pushing ethical boundaries". https://www.forbes.com/sites/audreymurrell/2018/07/31/pushing-the-ethical-boundaries-of-big-data-a-look-at-chinas-social-credit-scoring-system/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/audreymurrell/2018/07/31/pushin...
    - raquo 8y ago
      So you link yo an article that explains exactly why this is problematic, and you're still saying it's because "China". It's not. It's because of scale. If a similar system was being implemented in the US the shitstorm would be even bigger. Tala is a whole other story, it is small scale and not mandatory. As it grows to the point where using it is expected or required it will face the same exact criticism.
      - wufufufu 8y ago
        Taking out a mortgage in the US is not mandatory. Getting a loan for your business isn't either. I get what you're saying, but I still sense some cognitive dissonance. If the US lets some hip start up build a social credit score and then just heavily buys into it, I think it will face less pushback than if they use a scary federal contractor to build the same score. I get the feeling that people think governments are intentionally evil.
apatters 8y ago
There is a difference though. A system implemented by Equifax would presumably look at your social media habits or phone usage and say, "Sorry, we're denying you a loan because our data indicates that you may default." The Chinese social credit system looks at your social media and phone usage and says, "Sorry, we're denying you a loan because you were critical of the government." It is fair to criticize the prospective Equifax system and the concerns around pervasive data collection are valid. But the Chinese system is in a whole different, far more evil league. > While English-language media describe China’s social credit system as a Black Mirror-like authoritarian implementation, Chinese social media users seem to focus more on the advantages than the burdens. This is a remarkably tone-deaf observation given that talking about the burdens will get them imposed on you.
- sjg007 8y ago
  US can do the same thing... using the patriot act.
- throwaway2048 8y ago
  What if politically active people are determined to be at high risk of default?
- dingaling 8y ago
  > Equifax would presumably look at your social media habits or phone usage and ... and exercise and driving telemetry data and family medical and criminal history and... At a certain threshold the distinction with the Chinese system becomes irrelevant given the impact on an individual.
- adrianN 8y ago
  Such a system, once in place, is really easy to change to filter for any kind of criteria. One must prevent the infrastructure for large scale surveillance. It's not okay just because you agree with its planned mode of use.
  - sgt101 8y ago
    As per the case of the 1930's Dutch census data used by Nazi's to murder Jews. I doubt anyone in the Dutch government imagined such a thing for a moment, and yet - catastrophe and horror. We must be very careful.

zarriak 8y ago

I think you can reduce it down to the formula: You should assume [US entity] will eventually implement [Chinese Government method of social control].

SheinhardtWigCo 8y ago
How is that different to what OP said?
- zarriak 8y ago
  The Chinese Government has many advanced methods of social control, from constant cctv surveillance, direct access to every social media network, massive censorship powers, etc. The comedown from empire isn't pretty and even if the trade war somehow delays China from superseding the US GDP it is somewhat inevitable. Although the social credit system probably comes to the US it is naive at best to assume that the vast majority of other forms of control that China has developed don't make their way over the Pacific.

snaky 8y ago

> While English-language media describe China’s social credit system as a Black Mirror-like authoritarian implementation, Chinese social media users seem to focus more on the advantages than the burdens. > At time of writing, Sesame Credit has 240.000 fans on its official Weibo account (@芝麻信用), where they promote the most recent benefits to users with higher credit scores, such as the possibility to get Hello Bicycle (哈罗单车) rental bikes without deposits. > Apart from Hello Bike or Ford, there is a myriad of other brands that seem happy to participate in the Sesame Credit system and the idea of Shared Economy. “Thumbs up for sharing [economy]!”, some netizens comment. https://www.whatsonweibo.com/open-sesame-social-credit-in-china-as-gate-to-punitive-measures-and-personal-perks/ https://www.whatsonweibo.com/open-sesame-social-credit-in-ch...

wool_gather 8y ago
What is the relevance of this? A tiny fraction of people, who are benefitting materially from the system, are happy about those benefits -- that's not shocking. And it has no bearing on the wider effects or ethics of the system.
- snaky 8y ago
  > Study: More than two thirds of Chinese take a positive view of social credit systems in their country > Team of scholars at Freie Universität Berlin surveyed 2,200 citizens. Particularly high level of approval among older and better educated https://www.fu-berlin.de/en/presse/informationen/fup/2018/fup_18_198-studie-sozialkreditsystem-china/index.html https://www.fu-berlin.de/en/presse/informationen/fup/2018/fu...

enraged_camel 8y ago

>>Your daily habits, used for who knows what purpose over the many decades remaining in your life, are worth a hell of a lot more than a latte. The value of something does have a temporal component. You're talking about a cup of coffee now, when I desperately need caffeine, vs. the value of something (my personal data) far into the future.

kwhitefoot 8y ago
> desperately need caffeine You are surely not serious?
gaius 8y ago
People in general underestimate the cumulative effects of small things. Like “just one cookie” won’t make a difference but do it hundreds of times and you wake up one morning to discover that you’re fat and your clothes don’t fit and you’re not quite sure how it happened. That is how it is with giving away tiny pieces of personal data.

wufufufu 8y ago

I feel like this is viewed negatively because it has "Chinese" attached to it. Here's an article where a credit score based on phone habits is viewed positively: https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2017/02/22/woman-led-tala-raises-30-million-series-b-for-micro-loans-via-smartphone/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2017/02/22/woman-l...

raquo 8y ago
That's cute while it's a small experiment in faraway countries. Now imagine being unable to rent an apartment without running an app that tracks your calls and location 24/7. I don't know what "Chinese" has to do with the absurdity of this Panopticon.
- wufufufu 8y ago
  When some people do it it's "empowering the underbanked" or "empowering an underserved market". When China does it, it's "pushing ethical boundaries". https://www.forbes.com/sites/audreymurrell/2018/07/31/pushing-the-ethical-boundaries-of-big-data-a-look-at-chinas-social-credit-scoring-system/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/audreymurrell/2018/07/31/pushin...
  - raquo 8y ago
    So you link yo an article that explains exactly why this is problematic, and you're still saying it's because "China". It's not. It's because of scale. If a similar system was being implemented in the US the shitstorm would be even bigger. Tala is a whole other story, it is small scale and not mandatory. As it grows to the point where using it is expected or required it will face the same exact criticism.
    - wufufufu 8y ago
      Taking out a mortgage in the US is not mandatory. Getting a loan for your business isn't either. I get what you're saying, but I still sense some cognitive dissonance. If the US lets some hip start up build a social credit score and then just heavily buys into it, I think it will face less pushback than if they use a scary federal contractor to build the same score. I get the feeling that people think governments are intentionally evil.

apatters 8y ago

There is a difference though. A system implemented by Equifax would presumably look at your social media habits or phone usage and say, "Sorry, we're denying you a loan because our data indicates that you may default." The Chinese social credit system looks at your social media and phone usage and says, "Sorry, we're denying you a loan because you were critical of the government." It is fair to criticize the prospective Equifax system and the concerns around pervasive data collection are valid. But the Chinese system is in a whole different, far more evil league. > While English-language media describe China’s social credit system as a Black Mirror-like authoritarian implementation, Chinese social media users seem to focus more on the advantages than the burdens. This is a remarkably tone-deaf observation given that talking about the burdens will get them imposed on you.

sjg007 8y ago
US can do the same thing... using the patriot act.
throwaway2048 8y ago
What if politically active people are determined to be at high risk of default?
dingaling 8y ago
> Equifax would presumably look at your social media habits or phone usage and ... and exercise and driving telemetry data and family medical and criminal history and... At a certain threshold the distinction with the Chinese system becomes irrelevant given the impact on an individual.
adrianN 8y ago
Such a system, once in place, is really easy to change to filter for any kind of criteria. One must prevent the infrastructure for large scale surveillance. It's not okay just because you agree with its planned mode of use.
- sgt101 8y ago
  As per the case of the 1930's Dutch census data used by Nazi's to murder Jews. I doubt anyone in the Dutch government imagined such a thing for a moment, and yet - catastrophe and horror. We must be very careful.