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No Cash Needed at This Cafe: Students Pay the Tab with Their Personal Data
- josephpmay 8y agoThis is literally Ad Buddies in the TV show Maniac. I’d probably do it. They’re open about what data they collect and what they use it for, which is better than many of the websites I use
- satori99 8y agoThat was my first thought also... "We have specially trained staff members who give students additional information about our sponsors while they enjoy their coffee." What's not to enjoy about a fresh cup of coffee, payed for by a stranger who has special training in reading ads at you? Specifically at you. I wonder if the customers<?> are allowed to not pay attention? or give incorrect information?
- Fellshard 8y agoFrankly, I'd be pulled out of the experience because of just how meta it is. It would be like holding up a mirror at you, causing you to evaluate why they choose to advertise to you _like that_, and which products it targets you with.
- jypepin 8y agoMy thoughts also. This just makes me sad to see our world going so close to all the post apocalyptic worlds we're used to see in Sci Fi.
- wild_preference 8y agoDoesn’t seem that sad. In uni, I had attention to spare but no funds. Why is it so sad that one can deliberately trade that asset for coffee? And why is it so much better to transmute time into an intermediate asset first before trading it for coffee?
- GW150914 8y agoIt’s sad that you can’t opt out and just pay for coffee. If it were just an option it would be fine, but this is the only way.
- sbenji 8y agoYou can always just go to another coffee shop. It is not like this is the only coffee shop. I would have definitely participated when I was in school. Seems like a good service considering it could help you find a job after college.
- Nerdfest 8y agoMuch like you you could go to some social network other than Facebook. You can but it's inconvenient.
- stringyham 8y agoIt's inconvenient to use something other than Facebook because all your friends/family are on it. Coffee is just coffee...
- jypepin 8y agoit's sad that we are getting towards a world where hyper consumption becomes such a focus and so important that advertising is able to get budgets that can support this kind of ads. The fact that you had attention to spare while in uni can also be seen as a loss (not a personal attack to you). But if you are in uni and don't have anything better to do but to listen to someone reading you ads, then, in my opinion, it's sad (again no attack against you).
- mizchief2 8y agoSeems like a good place to meet my proxy friend.
- ReverseCold 8y agoNormally I'm very against personal data leaks like this, but in this case it looks to be mutually beneficial. Companies recruit the people at the coffee shop (who are all university students/professors), and the people giving away personal information (which you do anyway on your CV) get free coffee and maybe even a career. Of course, that's based on this article. In reality it might be much worse.
- Kagerjay 8y agoI think there is still a very large and unexplored market of opt-in based advertising, this is a good example. Other examples might be at gas stations, get reduced fare if you listen to targeted ad etc. Or ads when inside an uber. I dont mind targeted advertising actually (if its actually interesting to me), sometimes I wish I could see more of it but I have adblock running everywhere Another example I see is sponsored pizza at tech meetups and sponsors etc
- RandomInteger4 8y agoThis is nauseating.
- pteredactyl 8y agoI agree.
- RaleyField 8y agoI welcome it for two reasons. First reason is that the transaction is more transparent. Contrast that to what is happening on the internet - in the cafe informed consent is given explicitly instead of implicitly and from often less informed internet users. Second reason is that it will perhaps unintentionally push into consciousness of people the notion that private information has real, tangible value which would hopefully translate into change of awareness and attitude on the internet to treats to privacy that exist there that I think we both find more nauseating. Shiru Cafe into every city!
- rapnie 8y ago> First reason is that the transaction is more transparent. Is it? If this concept takes off, these places will be set up for maximum data collection. I don't give consent to use my PII, but the camera in the corner has facial recognition, tracks what I eat, how I eat it, who I am with, etc. I'll definitely avoid these places.
- RandomInteger4 8y agoThere is no rational form of consent available. You either give up your data or you don' get coffee, period. That's not consent. That's an asinine abuse of privacy. If there were actual consent they would allow you to pay for the coffee. They don't. That's not a valid form of informed consent. That's coercion.
- hansy 8y agoI actually like this. 1.) Totally opt-in. Unless this cafe holds a monopoly on the coffee market on this college campus, students can choose to participate. 2.) It seems like the students have some control over what data to share. Hopefully it's not a binary all-or-nothing situation, but if there's a chance students can share whatever they want (and receive tiered cafe services in proportion to whatever they share), that seems kinda interesting. I'm more than happy to grant companies access to me. But I want something in return. In this case, maybe a chai latte?
- kardos 8y ago> I'm more than happy to grant companies access to me. But I want something in return. In this case, maybe a chai latte? I think you're undervaluing yourself at 4 bucks
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- codyb 8y agoBut would a years worth of chai latte's, or 4 be worth it? It's certainly not a one off as apparently they have limits for per hour and per day.
- kardos 8y agoI dunno, I wouldn't set foot in such a place. It seems to me that this idea is a race to the bottom. If people continue to give up first level information (name, address, etc) it devalues it because that info becomes commonplace and widely distributed. So what happens then -- dig deeper into your life? Does the 2019 version of this cafe want complete access to your phone / laptop? What about the 2020 version? The only wining move is not to play.
- codyb 8y agoOh yea I'm a huge privacy advocate and wouldn't set a foot in a place like that either. Although it's getting harder and harder it seems. Was just commenting that you get more than a 4 dollar latte.
- DanFeldman 8y agohttps://xkcd.com/2006/ https://xkcd.com/2006/ Relevant XKCD, to an extreme.
- godman_8 8y agoSeems like the data they're using is pretty static, I wonder how they make money off repeat customers?
- fma 8y agoDoes that mean you get free coffee everyday or a one time deal? If its everyday then it's a decent amount of rewards for what essentially LinkedIn is getting for free.
- alphabettsy 8y agoIt’s unfortunate that this is what privacy advocates are up against: "Maybe I should have been more apprehensive, but everyone has your information at this point anyway," she said. "To give out my name and email and what I study does not seem so risky to me." Unfortunately this kinda of apathy doesn’t leave much room for those who don’t want to give up their information. There is no alternate model for companies like Facebook or LinkedIn that allows for possibly paying users to maintain some level of privacy.
- justtopost 8y agoStrange game. The only way to win, is not to play.
- aendruk 8y agoUniversity students as a demographic have traditionally been capable of rising to enact social change motivated by principle or altruism. I think the answer here is to remember that individual privacy as a social norm is healthy for your community, regardless of whether you personally expect to need it.
- softawre 8y agoThe whole point of FB and LinkedIn is to share data about you, if you don't want to share that data then don't use the services. (surely you can pay for a service to replicate whatever part of these platforms you need)
- smelendez 8y agoThis isn't that different to me from a lot of college job fairs where you drop your resume at the door or upload it online, except it's open every day. I definitely remember a lot of events like "bring your resume, hear from a panel about exciting careers in X, and eat free pizza!!"
- TomMckenny 8y agoYou should assume that Equifax or the like will eventually implement a Chinese style social credit system which Banks, Employers and Landlords etc will use and will be judged legal because "contracts" Your daily habits, used for who knows what purpose over the many decades remaining in your life, are worth a hell of a lot more than a latte.
- zarriak 8y agoI think you can reduce it down to the formula: You should assume [US entity] will eventually implement [Chinese Government method of social control].
- SheinhardtWigCo 8y agoHow is that different to what OP said?
- zarriak 8y agoThe Chinese Government has many advanced methods of social control, from constant cctv surveillance, direct access to every social media network, massive censorship powers, etc. The comedown from empire isn't pretty and even if the trade war somehow delays China from superseding the US GDP it is somewhat inevitable. Although the social credit system probably comes to the US it is naive at best to assume that the vast majority of other forms of control that China has developed don't make their way over the Pacific.
- snaky 8y ago> While English-language media describe China’s social credit system as a Black Mirror-like authoritarian implementation, Chinese social media users seem to focus more on the advantages than the burdens. > At time of writing, Sesame Credit has 240.000 fans on its official Weibo account (@芝麻信用), where they promote the most recent benefits to users with higher credit scores, such as the possibility to get Hello Bicycle (哈罗单车) rental bikes without deposits. > Apart from Hello Bike or Ford, there is a myriad of other brands that seem happy to participate in the Sesame Credit system and the idea of Shared Economy. “Thumbs up for sharing [economy]!”, some netizens comment. https://www.whatsonweibo.com/open-sesame-social-credit-in-china-as-gate-to-punitive-measures-and-personal-perks/ https://www.whatsonweibo.com/open-sesame-social-credit-in-ch...
- nicodjimenez 8y agoI think (hope) this is the beginning of a big new trend. Instead of having people and services steal my personal information to show me BS ads, let me sell my own personal data and maybe then you can show some ads for stuff I might actually be interested in. You might argue that advertisers have too much access to our personal data, but I'd argue they don't have enough.
- SheinhardtWigCo 8y agoAnd what happens when the ad company holding the personal data of 50 million people gets compromised?
- nicodjimenez 8y agoIt depends. What can you really do with stolen data about the legit buying interests of 50 million people?
- SheinhardtWigCo 8y agoIt’s not just buying interests, though, is it? It’s where you go, who you talk to, what you talk about, your sexual preferences, bank balance, religious views, whether you have weapons in your home, whether you’re having an illicit affair, what medications you’re taking, etc.
- matz1 8y agoI don't really care if someone end up having this information of me, its when they use this information to do actual harm me that I care, but in this case its already illegal to do so.
- SheinhardtWigCo 8y agoIt’s maybe not a big deal on an individual level, sure - but imagine the damage one could inflict on humanity by having this dataset for world leaders or even whole populations.
- pteredactyl 8y agoAs an option, yes. But as the only option, no. I prefer to spend cash. It's a hassle to manage but it gives me peace of mind.
- harshulpandav 8y agoTo get the free coffee, university students must give away their names, phone numbers, email addresses and majors, or in Brown's lingo, concentrations. Students also provide dates of birth and professional interests Well, what if the student comes again for another coffee? What new/different data does/can he give?
- jeannekamikaze 8y agoThe fact that you came again is likely a valuable piece of data. And now you are identifiable, so if this is scaled to several coffee shops (not that this particular one would, but as a general idea), you get some pretty decent location tracking right there without having to sell people expensive devices with elusive privacy controls. Probably somewhat of an overshoot (or maybe not?), but given that companies like Google sell you local ads based on where you are, I can see why this approach would be valuable.
- AndrewDucker 8y agoThe data is just to help them find sponsors. The real thing paying for the coffee is the advertising they subject them to.
- make3 8y agoi'd definitely use a vpn if I went there
- 0xb100db1ade 8y ago> "Maybe I should have been more apprehensive, but everyone has your information at this point anyway," she said. "To give out my name and email and what I study does not seem so risky to me." I hear this a lot. As a privacy advocate myself, what is the best response to this?
- dhnsmakala 8y ago"You're right"
- thewizardofaus 8y agoAnd from that I can track down your social media accounts, perhaps your forum accounts, you most likely have the same username/identifier for all forums, correct? Now I know everything about you. Also important to emphasise that once you know someone's user/email you can cross reference against leaked database dumps to reveal passwords. They might have changed them since on X website but may not on other sites.
- samontar 8y agoMaybe recognize that what you care about isn’t what others care about.
- mortond 8y agoI think this question is interesting, what can we do about it?
- Goodmanw 8y agoJust give them random fake answers as the response.
- mng42 8y agoThis is the future.
- a_imho 8y agoWell, Europeans in theory have Right to Erasure.
- shorttime 8y agoHow is this even validated or profitable? Companies ask me for various information all the time and I usually just make it up or use an old #, old zip code, etc. Once they have the data, then how do they make money?
- rapnie 8y agoIf some of these companies still manage to correlate this fake data to you (i.e. you didn't play the game well enough), it might earn you the flag 'untrustworthy' on your profile, and you'll experience the blowback from that.
- jtl999 8y agoWhat's preventing me from feeding them garbage? (other then my university affiliation?)
- rapnie 8y agoThe risk of getting some really bad character traits attached to your profile, if they still manage to identify you.
- Buge 8y ago>Alex Inoue, Shiru Cafe's general manager, wrote in an email that the cafe does not give out data on specific students. But it does provide general, aggregate data such as student majors and expected graduation years. I don't see how aggregated data would be valuable enough to fund the cafe. You could probably find that aggregated data via the university's own statistics. The article also says they collect phone numbers and email addresses, but this quote says they don't give them out, which seems a bit strange to me. And JP Morgan hired 40% of its hires from the cafe, but it wasn't given their phone numbers or emails? I guess it's possible but it also seems strange. If you think of the cafe like a job recruitment site, such as Linkedin, Indeed, or Triplebyte, then it would be expected that the site would provide some way for employers to contact candidates. Handing out email and phone number might be considered acceptable, or alternatively providing an intermediary messaging service might be better.
- maaaats 8y agoMaybe instead of "here are 50 emails you can buy" it's more like "pay us to send an email to 50 students". In the second case no data is shared.
- ken 8y agoCollege kids have no money, and want to be connected with companies. Companies have money, and want to hire people. It sounds sketchy, but is this really so different than companies hosting tech talks at college, exchanging contact info with participants, and buying pizza for the event?
- quadrangle 8y agoThis is like a college student, coffee version of time-share vacation promotion things.
- torgian 8y agoToday I learned my data is worth one cup of coffee.
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- DonbunEf7 8y agoTalk about discrimination against non-students. Like students are some kind of special snowflakes. I'm going to sue them for this breach of my rights.
- justtopost 8y agoSeems like its actually the studends being discriminated against. Students are always the low hanging fruit for these ideas, as they tend to be less thougutful and more impulsive, yet have just been granted full adulting powers before actually having the frame of refrence to use them.
- jwilk 8y agoText-only version: https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=643386327 https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=643386327
- nisse72 8y agoTo get the free coffee, university students must [...] Funny, the definition of "free" seems to have changed. It may be that no money changes hands, but the coffee is certainly not free.
- paradite 8y agoCoffee is free in the same way Facebook and Google services are free. Honestly I would expect more services like this to come out, given how successful Facebook and Google managed to become.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago> Coffee is free in the same way Facebook and Google services are free. So, it is not free, just as Facebook and Google services aren't - which is exactly what GP said. So ... what is your point?
- justtopost 8y agoHis point, and one I share with great reservation, is that the distinction might be moot now thanks to a changing understanding (selling?) of the various meanings and understanings of "free". The jaded concept of 'nothing is really free' carries with it a cold chunk of truth, and people are baking it in. People think they have to surrender agency and personal dignity for basic services.
- leetcrew 8y ago> People think they have to surrender agency and personal dignity for basic services. who seriously thinks this? the only services i can think of off the top of my head that don't have viable paid alternatives are facebook and google search. and there's at least one decent alternative to google search that is a bit more privacy focused. for most people, privacy isn't even worth a $5 monthly subscription.
- vongomben 8y ago
- teddyh 8y agoPredicted in 2015: http://onthefastrack.com/comics/april-14-2015/ http://onthefastrack.com/comics/april-14-2015/
- abtom 8y agoThey have this at my university. Their main model seems to be advertising. Though personal data is required at sign up, it isn't significantly more than what would be on your resume. You need to sign up with your details on a website and need to activate a QR code each time you visit. Show the code at the counter to collect coffee. As you collect your cup of coffee, the barista speaks out an advertisement (yes, really) which is a short description about one of the sponsor companies. There is a limit on number of cups you can take per hour and day. I've never used it but it's immensely popular among students and even professors. There is no option to pay for the coffee and bypass the advertisements/sign up process. Can't wait until all food and drinks everywhere are "free" this way.
- mach5 8y agocan you just lie to them about your personal details?
- abtom 8y agoYou can, but not in a useful way. They verify the phone number, email and college ID card the first time. So your major and other details of value are known to them. For other questions you don't gain anything by lying because they're about what fields your interests lie in, et al.
- lovich 8y agoI'd say it's good practice to put garbage data into anything companies try to collect about you. They may be able to correlate your profiles from multiple data sources, but if every source has different values then you love protected your privacy to some small degree at least
- softawre 8y agoThis is a major premise in Mr Robot. They built a tool that makes it easy to add junk data to every data stream out there about you, effectively ruining the data.
- amaccuish 8y ago> But if handing over personal data seems invasive, Ferris said the students don't seem to mind. She doesn't think she has seen a single customer refuse to give up the data. I mean, I just wouldn't go to this cafe because of my personal view, so that data point may not show what they want it to show.
- qrbLPHiKpiux 8y agoMy God. They are paying with very expensive currency. Cash would be the cheapest way to pay.
- qwerty456127 8y agoSounds like an abuse of the youth naivety. Many people don't care about their future until they graduate and make their fair amount of mistakes and selling their privacy is going to be among the mistakes they'll probably regret later.
- fanzhang 8y agoMaybe with more traditional businesses charging not in cash, but in data, we can finally establish an equivalency between the two. This can be useful in proving how certain companies (maybe Facebook, Google) can be monopolies in overcharging users in data space due to the lack of competition.
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- clubm8 8y agoWhat stops a student from giving false information? Tyler Durden, lover of crafts and urban exploration, would like one espresso.
- hartator 8y agoTechincaly, it’s just corporate sponsorship of a coffeshop. Shockingly, student’s data are not worth unlimited coffee.
- Latteland 8y agoBesides being horrified at a forthcoming world where more businesses do this, I am also surprised there's that much money in in person advertising. If I had free coffee I would spend 10$ a day at least. There 10$ of advertiser value in 2 or 3 30 second spiels?
- bibbitybobbity 8y agoWelcome to timeshare, reinvented