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If you really care which programming languages I already know or which applications I have used before, I can only assume that you're overlooking my ability to

If you really care which programming languages I already know or which applications I have used before, I can only assume that you're overlooking my ability to quickly pick up new technologies and adjust to new ways of thinking. I would encourage you to correct this, as it is a mistake. I know it's tongue in cheek, but my god does the current generation not have any humility at all? This is going to ruin your world view, so brace yourself: You are not fucking special in any way shape or form. Even if you graduated with the best marks in MIT and have been programming since the womb, guess what? So have people every single graduating year for the past 20 fricken years. The only constant in your never ending job search is - wait for it - YOU. Get over yourself. You are not entitled to anything. You are the lowest of the low, and have proved nothing to anyone that matters. Start the journey at the beginning. And Yes, you are at the beginning. Your accomplishments so far are shared by every single person in the work force. Be humble and gracious until you actually distinguish yourself.

astrofinch 16y ago
Hm. 'Fraid I don't see what a sense of entitlement has to do with the difficulty of picking up new programming languages.
- chaostheory 16y ago
  (Assuming he wants a technical job) not bothering to show proof of being proactive and learning a language in the two years he was out of work: posting an example of his work ala open source project or failed startup This can also apply in other ways too (graphic design, web design, charitable organization activities, etc...) My point is that I don't see a portfolio other than a single short story example.
- ramchip 16y ago
  Programming languages can't all be picked up that quickly, since semantics may differ a lot. You can't say "Give me any programming task and I'll pick it up". What if you're a Web guy and the task is a C++ medical application? What if we're a finance company and the language is Haskell or ML? There's no way someone with no experience in a related language could become proficient without a fairly long training period in the company. What if I'm a hardware IP company and the language is Verilog? To pretend that what takes many years and domain knowledge to become proficient in, you could just "pick up" on the go, is what sounds a bit entitled to me.
  - BenSS 16y ago
    Once you know one language well, many of the skills transfer. Besides, he states he is looking for an ENTRY level position and fully realizes he's not a guru.
    - DisposaBoy 16y ago
      Yes many skills transfer. Like how one ane write C++ from readin the docs without ever learning C++ or how one can write C++ having only ever learned C. The part you're missing is that it doesn't make you any good in C++, in fact I'd argue that it makes you terrible if you're going to try to write X code in Y language. The fact that it's entry-level doesn't mean anything. A lot of times these entry-level jobs aren't something you can just go and start pasting code together.
    - Hubbert 16y ago
      Yes. Experience is great, but everyone has to start somewhere. The unemployment rate for under 25 is extremely high. Society doesn't focus much attention these days on "upward mobility." But but an overreliance on "experience" (generally "paid, professional experience"), in extremis, will permanently shut out an entire generation from the world of middle-class employment. Is that really a good idea? "Resolved: Individuals who did not have a good (preferably government) job on July 31, 2007 and a record of unblemished professional success with progressive experience and responsibility and no failures or false starts should abandon all hope." Is this really what we want to promote?
  - jemfinch 16y ago
    > Programming languages can't all be picked up that quickly, since semantics may differ a lot. The second day with my new employer I was tasked with writing an analysis project in a language I'd never even heard of before joining. Within two weeks, I was writing code in that language every bit as good as my coworkers'. Your statement may hold true for people who know one or two languages (like most CS graduates these days), but once you know a wide array of languages (my list is Python, C and C++, OCaml and SML, Lisp and Scheme, Perl, and the semantics but not the libraries of Lua/Ruby/Java/Erlang/Haskell) picking up a new language really isn't a challenge at all: the semantics almost certainly fit somewhere in the space of the languages you know, and what small bits do not are easily learned. (As a side note, that's why I still put OCaml, Erlang, and Lisp on my resume; not that I imagine very many employers would be interested in working in those languages, but because I want them to know that whatever they do their work in likely lies within the range of my existing semantic knowledge.)
- run4yourlives 16y ago
  How about the fact that I'm not interested in paying you to learn - in either time or money. I might invest in that if you are worth it, but you need to prove that to me first. Assuming that I either am or that I should be paying for you to learn a new language when there are thousands of applicants that I don't have to do this for is the sense of entitlement that I'm talking about.
- encoderer 16y ago
  Within a given discipline (eg web development), picking up the syntax new language isn't too difficult. Then you have to navigate the new libraries which also isn't too hard. Basically.. What's the [new language] equivalent of [some method call] in [old language]. The trouble is picking-up the idiom: If you're a Java guy learning Python in this manner you're going to end up with a lot of java-looking python code. Nothing wrong with hiring a developer for a language he doesn't have a lot of personal experience with. But there's also nothing wrong with a company wanting to know which languages a developer knows. They shouldn't get a lecture for asking IMO.
treeface 16y ago
I agree with you almost entirely. One tiny exception: >I know it's tongue in cheek, but my god does the current generation not have any humility at all? Come on...how many times do we have to go through this "young whippersnappers don't have any humility anymore" nonsense before we recognize that young humans, in general, have less humility than they should? Just because you (perhaps) had more humility than this kid doesn't mean your entire generation did.
- run4yourlives 16y ago
  Disagree. I'm generation X. We all knew that we were the first generation to be worse off than our parents. We entered the economy when nobody was hiring, especially if you were a white male. Most of us were happy just to get a job. I was - get this - happy to get into the army. (Canada) It's more likely than not that we were the exception to the rule, I'll accept that. But I believe that my generation overall was most certainly more humble than the current one.
  - treeface 16y ago
    "Generation X" doesn't tell me a whole lot about when you grew up as it appears to encompass a range of 20 years of births (1961-1981 according to WP). In the US (and I'll focus on the US because I think that's where the reverse application guy is from), the unemployment rate reached a peak of 10.8% toward the end of 1982, due largely to the monetary stabilization policies of Mr. Paul Adolph Volcker. In 1981 it was in the 7's and it was back down to the 7's by 1984. A bad recession, yes, but it led into an era of extended low unemployment rates (all the way down to around 5.2% in 1989) until the recession of the early 90s when it jumped back up to 7.8%. This didn't last for long, as the greatest period of extended prosperity the US has known in a long time dropped unemployment rates to the 3's, 4's, and 5's for much of the 90s. For a while there in the 80s and 90s, members of "generation X" actually came out of school with a better chance of landing a job than most graduating classes in the history of the US. In Canada, things actually happened to be quite a bit nastier then than they are now: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Unemployment-Rate.aspx?Symbol=CAD http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Unemployment-Rate.... Now look at the current era. I graduated college in late 2007, at almost the exact moment hiring froze in almost every industry. By 2008, you'd be lucky to get a job if you had 5 years experience, nevermind zero. By 2009, the unemployment rate had jumped up to 10%, a level the US had not seen since the early college graduation days of "generation X". In 2010 we've seen moderate levels of hiring, but no sustained push. Now those of us who graduated in 2007 are looking at possibly a 4th year of sluggish hiring. So again...I maintain that young humans, in general, have less humility than they should (primarily because they don't know the difference between "good" and "bad"), but this level of humility in the application process (however you can even measure that) probably varies heavily on market conditions. If you graduated college in 1981...my condolences to you. You had it rough there for a few years. But try to keep in mind that there are lots of people out there right now who are in the exact same boat. And with regard to "being worse off than your parents", I don't think there's a young person alive in the US who isn't at least partially bitter about the massive debts your generation and the ones that came before it have left us with, all while being bragged at by older people about how amazingly humble they are. And let's also not forget that your generation isn't "worse off" than your parents if you're counting by measure of inflation-adjusted income. Also important to note: this kid wasn't getting responses from employers after going the humble applicant route. I had the exact same problem: people just wouldn't return my calls. So if he does have a lack of humility, it's a direct result of not having a job in a poor economy.
ajaimk 16y ago
I disagree. This guy is indeed special. If for no other reason than for the fact that he had the fucking guts to write this.
- run4yourlives 16y ago
  Sometimes, wisdom is preferable to guts.
  - joelesler 16y ago
    Well said there.
  - ajaimk 16y ago
    The young are foolish but brave, and the old are brave but cowardly. In the end, to each his own.
- fady 16y ago
  I agree, very well written. It has a fresh, unique take at getting work. Should not be overlooked.
- werthog 16y ago
  Guts? That would imply that he had anything to lose by doing this.
flipper 16y ago
Yeah, if I was an employer (and I have been from time to time) I'd probably read this, smile wryly, and move on. But someone else might not. I don't have a problem with the guy asserting that he can pick up new technologies quickly, as long as he expects he will only be offered entry-level positions. You do not write Python the way Shakespeare wrote prose after six months. I do however have problem with him not providing anything to back up his assertion. But he probably figures in a tight job market he needs to find a way to stand out, and this is it.
- tlrobinson 16y ago
  This stunt is an attention catcher but he can't seriously expect to get a job without at least an interview. And not some bullshit where he interviews the company. There's no way in hell I'd hire him without first checking his competency.
  - jjs 16y ago
    > And not some bullshit where he interviews the company. A good candidate does that during any job interview. Two-way filtering helps all parties find better matches faster.
    - tlrobinson 16y ago
      Sure, but I'd expect to have a chance to really grill him as well.
      - davidandgoliath 16y ago
        That's what the contact form is for. He's merely sick of the hiring process, as are all of the people hiring.
        tlrobinson 16y ago
        I'm not sure if you're suggesting using the contact form to ask him interview questions, or just to setup an interview, but if it's the former that's ridiculous.
KeithMajhor 16y ago
A person who "graduated with the best marks in MIT and has been programming since the womb" is special. The other people doing it "every single graduating year"... they're special too.
- run4yourlives 16y ago
  Not to me they aren't. If I needed a Rails app, DHH is special, not Mr. MIT womb programmer. There are very few "special" positions that a nice degree and IQ points alone are the only prerequisites.
  - ph0rque 16y ago
    Good luck getting DHH to code your Rails app...
    - run4yourlives 16y ago
      Sigh... my original point seems to be lost arguing semantics with academics in this sub-thread it seems...
      - azanar 16y ago
        I'll not speak for everyone else. But, for me, your point got lost in the righteous indignation that came in subsequent replies in the sub-thread. It is very difficult to assert humility while maintaining an impression of the same. I only started replying when you made this about identity.
        run4yourlives 16y ago
        Actually, I think what's happening is that a good number of people are taking my comments as some sort of personal attack, even though they aren't even directed at them specifically. Like I said: It attacks their world view. I'm playing the persona of a person that has been around the block a little too well perhaps to make a point. The fact is that there is always somebody more experienced, smarter, better than you are, no matter who you happen to be. Even if you are at the top of your game, changing the subject matter can easily knock you down a few pegs. I appreciate that what I'm saying may be lost on the youthful part of this audience and may be taken as me saying that I am better than you all because I have a few years on you. Be clear: this isn't what I am saying. I'm no less of an audience to my own comments as anyone else reading them.
SkyMarshal 16y ago
Be humble and gracious until you actually distinguish yourself. And even moreso afterwards.
- run4yourlives 16y ago
  Agreed. Although you have a little more room to be an ass if you can back it up.
  - lsc 16y ago
    it's all contextual. If you are really good, your social skills matter a whole lot less. When you are not good, though, in many contexts, arrogance is better than appearing to lack confidence.
  - joe_the_user 16y ago
    Hmm, I prefer non-asses myself but I think there are other options in the world besides humble and ass ...
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  That might have worked in a different world. Today, the only thing you want to do is hire public relations firm to tell people how you humble and gracious you are...
shareme 16y ago
I think the author did not go the extra mile here.. He should have made the text/content a program.. For example, I have a recruiter android game that I sometimes send to recruiters when they enter my inbox...answers their questions in a neat way and still allows me to poke fun at the process.... If I was a hiring manager(and I have been once or twice) I would turn him down without a 2nd glance.
- jhen095 16y ago
  Sorry, I must say it is kind of funny. With this reverse approach you don't get the chance to turn him down.
azanar 16y ago
If you really care which programming languages I already know or which applications I have used before, I can only assume that you're overlooking my ability to quickly pick up new technologies and adjust to new ways of thinking. This is going to ruin your world view, so brace yourself So, this is ridiculously tongue-in-cheek, and the reply is over-the-top to the degree that I can imagine with no effort the same being uttered from underneath a drill sergeant's hat against some fresh recruit who copped a serious attitude. It's not an unfair response to brash cockiness, but it has set me thinking. Whether a language, or a framework, or a library, or any other handy tool of the software trade, there seems to be two camps that drown everyone else out in the din. There's the camp that declares that learning new things is a matter of extrapolating from the understanding one has already developed to fit with whatever assumptions this instantiation of thing X makes. For instance, you understand what Object Oriented programming is, and how it works. You are presented with a language you have never used before, but know it has support for OO. This puts you from a level of having to understand OO to a level of understanding this language's semantics for OO. Then there's the camp that declares that learning new things always starts from a position of absolute ignorance. Prior knowledge and understanding of concepts that would seem to apply to this new thing you are learning don't apply, almost as an axiom. As with my example of OO above, it doesn't matter that you know what OO is, and what it means to the structure of your program. If you don't know OO in the language of discussion, you get no points toward credit of understanding OO. If I may be blunt, both these stances seem like bullshit. You don't magically know the syntax of how to do OO in a new language simply because you know OO from a theoretical level; it's something you have to look up. But different languages' implementation of OO aren't so disparate that the only thing they share is the name. There is a basis there you can rely on, but it doesn't get you 100% of the way there. I guess the question I don't think people answer enough, which I would like to inject into the conversation is "how far does it get you?" I realize that the answer will vary for different theoretical ideas, and different practical realizations of the same. The point of my question is to challenge the presumption that understanding of related concepts either gets you to the finish by default, or leaves you gasping at the starting along with the people who didn't have that understanding. I think this gets left behind when we start having all of these political battles based on generational identity, and I'd like to see what people think when smacking other generations around isn't the primary goal of a thread.
joe_the_user 16y ago
Wow... I'm sure no one anyone's heard that kind of attitude before, great to have you get that off your chest... The funniest thing is you also hear people toss around statistics about 9 out of 10 applications not being able to X... Well, if a potential employer treats someone as the "the lowest of the low", they might find out the person acts like that, aren't "up to our standards" and they stay with an unfilled position and the frustration of interviewing (and abusing) fifty more people, who are also "the lowest of the low"...
chegra 16y ago
"Be humble and gracious until you actually distinguish yourself" How about: "Be humble and gracious.(Period)" I think it is important to understand the tone in which he wrote this. He is not serious, but he is doing this to garner attention. Your response doesn't match his intended tone. It is like someone being upset at a joke; you are taking it too serious.
mcknz 16y ago
eh, admit it -- you're just bummed you didn't think of this first. :) Personally I didn't take this very seriously & figured it was a creative exercise or attention getter. Kinda like the guy who wears his resume as a sandwich board and walks around NYC. Makes you want to hire the guy even if he's just competent technically. Thought it was hilarious -- could probably get him a job at a marketing/ad tech firm. It's already getting him a bunch of good advice at HN, so looks like it's working...
scott_s 16y ago
Good timing. user: run4yourlives created: 1337 days ago
- run4yourlives 16y ago
  lol. This is the coolest thing I've ever done. ...and it was completely unintended. :-)
randomtask 16y ago
You know nothing of his situation and yet are willing to cast aspersions on his character. Before you go tarring a whole generation with the "entitled" label perhaps a little context from the generation that lacks humility might be in order. Friends of mine are in the same position as this guy. They recently graduated with good degrees from a decent university with no allusions that finding a job was going to be anything but difficult. Rather than feel like they're owed a job the ones I know have spent hours _every_ day applying for jobs for the past (up to) 2 years with no success. Most of the time they get no reply from these companies (fair enough), but the few times they do get an interview someone else with more experience gets the job. This is clearly a frustrating position to be in. They feel like they've done everything that was expected of them. They went to university and graduated with a good degree. Now they see their friends who left school and started working immediately progressing in their careers and can't help but feel like they should have done the same. All the while this goes on people from other generations who have jobs harp on about how it's a disgrace that there are so many people on social welfare and these people could find a job if they wanted. When my friends get asked what they do and they reply that they're unemployed they're treated like plague monkeys. They're villified by members of the media and politicians looking for votes. Still they perservere. Far from feel a sense of entitlement these people feel despair. You think they don't know that they're "not fucking special" as you so eloquently put it? If after two years of applying for jobs without an end in sight he feels like venting a little bit of frustration at the attitudes of recruiters towards people like him that's not the worst thing in the world. If his situation is even half as bad as some of my friends' I wouldn't dare condescend to him by calling him entitled, far from it. It's not often I get angry after reading a comment on HN.
- danhak 16y ago
  I cannot explain how much you have hit the nail on the head. I graduated from college in May and have been having the exact experience you describe. My generation has been described as entitled. Quite frankly, I do feel as if I am owed something, and that society at large has failed to keep its end of the bargain. For my entire life, I was told that if I work hard in school, bust my ass to go to a good university and graduate with quantitative degree, I should have no trouble finding work. Now, half a year out of school, I find myself rotting away at my parents house, sending applications to any organization that might conceivably hire me, with no prospects and with no illusions that I'll find work that is fulfilling or properly matches my skill set. The grandparent's post is condescending and presumptuous. My generation seems entitled because the reality we are now confronting does not match up with the fantasy world that adults have been preparing us for for our entire lives.
fleitz 16y ago
Channeling our inner Tyler Durden this morning?
aneth 16y ago
If you know it's tongue in cheek, why not call it a creative humorous expression of frustration instead of being angry at the kid? Frankly, I'd consider hiring him for being bold and thinking outside the box - if I had any position he was qualified for... Indeed, this stunt DID distinguish himself. He's here on the top of hacker news. Clever stunt if you ask me.
palewery 16y ago
I agree with the intent of his statement: Employees need someone who can adapt and learn new technologies. But if your "languages" are HTML and Visual Basic, you are not a good match for my open position. Since nothing is listed I have no idea if I want to spend the time filling out this form.
- loup-vaillant 16y ago
  you already spent the time stating you might not want to spend time…
sebastianavina 16y ago
> A job that offers many travel opportunities stands a stronger chance of winning me over. Anyone that loves job traveling, is either an idiot, or have never done job traveling... I smell a lot of non sense from this application...
- elai 16y ago
  He has no family or other ties that make it more inconvient, he's a person who is volunteering to do something that people many people find unenjoyable, it can be a plus to an employer.
- jtbigwoo 16y ago
  I loved the travel aspect of my job when I was in my 20's. I did nothing but work on the weekdays and nothing but play on the weekends (in almost any city in the country.)
terra_t 16y ago
The funny thing is that I think his job hunting strategy is essentially correct. However, you just can't be so brazen, arrogant, and transparently narcissistic about it. Narcissism is the new "N-word", but it's not a bad thing. It's really a fancy way to say "self esteem". Psychoanalysts, since the 1960s, have come to see that postmodern people don't (usually) have the Oedipal problems that Freud talked about, but instead they have trouble with self esteem. There are a number of causes for this, but one of them is the massive exposure we get to the mass media. We all see people who are fantastically talented and successful (Bill Gates, Payton Manning, Jerry Garcia, etc,) we get massive doses of the "pornography of success" but we don't get realistic role models growing up. A lot of the people who read HN were people who "knew" they were smarter than anybody else in their peer group, but were in the shadow of Einstein, Bogart and Warhol. Bright and talented kids often don't feel like they have comparable peers, so they compare themselves to inaccessable superstars. Narcissism isn't bad, it's just a part of your mind, just like your heart is part of your body. However, Narcissism can malfunction, and a common form of malfunction is another preoedpial phenomenon called "Splitting", where you perceive things as all good or all bad. One day you feel like you're the best in the world, and really special because of that, then the next day you feel like the worst in the world and you're special because of that too. It can really mess up your head and make you miserable and ineffective. I'm not a professional, but I think this guy is experiencing splitting... He puffs up this big image of his self-importance because he also feels like he's small and unimportant. His process of healing and growing up means that he's got to integrate his feelings of "I'm awesome" with his feelings that "I'm worthless" and develop a realistic appraisal of who he is. Unfortunately, that's a very difficult task in the postmodern age. Anyhow, sending out resumes is a crappy way to get a job, particularly in a down economy. You really do want leads to come to you, and there are a few ways of doing that. I really like Neal Schaffer's approach to using LinkedIn, which is all about "digging your well before you are thirsty" http://amzn.to/c4B7RP http://amzn.to/c4B7RP My experience is that arrogance is an absolute killer in the job hunting process. I had a time, years ago, when I had a crappy resume, and just getting interviews was a challenge. After a while I had great experience, and I'd get interviews for maybe 50% of the applications I sent in... I'd just blow the interviews. I looked at why I was blowing the interviews and I found that arrogance was a big factor, so I made a point to tone it down. My issue now is that I feel programming is a dead end and I'm more interested in a management role. In my area, there's definitely a problem of "too many indians and not enough chiefs"; software projects often have nobody leading them at all, or if somebody is driving the bus, they're second-rate salespeople, experts in entomology, or otherwise people who don't understand the issues of IT management. People around here are much more interested in hiring junior developers who will go screw up their projects than they are in somebody experience who can help a team get the little things right consistently. My answer? Start my own business. I'm old enough that I'd only apply to Y Combinator as a prelude to filing an age descrimination lawsuit. However, I'm learning to combine my programming ideas with some very hard-nosed business ideas and bootstrapping something that, someday, might become really awesome.
Marticus 16y ago
While I see your point (I agree for the most part), I do hold that while it is being a bit... overconfident(?) I do see that is a problem sometimes in companies. I think it's mostly a fault in recruiters as some of the more-technical positions are frankly over their heads, but nonetheless I myself have had a few failed interviews because the people weren't willing to take me on my word that if I am passionate enough about something, I WILL learn it and I will be GOOD at what I do. But that alone will not net you a job. I think part of his problem is a lack of persistence. We are (for the most part) hackers of some flavour here, and hearing "we'll get back to you" when we know that's "you will never hear from us again" is unacceptable. So go hunt down the recruiting manager. If that fails, hunt down someone who likely holds a similar position and who you can impress to the point that they might vouch for you. Take alternative routes, and be DAMN persistent and passionate about the job you are trying for, even if it may not be 'teh bestest job evar.' Make them believe that you think it is. As someone commented below, they get tons of resumes (especially now). You've gotta stand out. If that means rolling up to some business in a suit and tie one day and wanting an interview so you can circumvent lackluster recruiters, so be it, or setting up an interview with (insert manager here) because you can Google things / social engineer a bit (obviously you don't want to lie, but you'd be surprised how few questions receptionists ask - usually just your name).
SeamusBrady 16y ago
Jeese - this is a tough crowd. I can think of several Irish businesses that I have worked for that would grab this guy straight away to train him. He may not be the worlds greatest programmer (he does not claim to be) but his attitude is great, he is creative and resourceful for thinking of this idea and he does not take himself too seriously. I have trained several hundred people in software development when working as a contract trainer and it was always attitude that allowed me to guess who would be the more competent programmer. I would prefer to hire a well rounded competent young person who could become a solid competent developer that some rockstar programmer with no personality. Fair play to this guy, he is doing something original instead of feeling sorry for himself.
forgottenpaswrd 16y ago
"I know it's tongue in cheek, but my god does the current generation not have any humility at all?" My god does people from older generations not label an entire group taking solely one sample?

If you really care which programming languages I already know or which applications I have used before, I can only assume that you're overlooking my ability to quickly pick up new technologies and adjust to new ways of thinking. I would encourage you to correct this, as it is a mistake. I know it's tongue in cheek, but my god does the current generation not have any humility at all? This is going to ruin your world view, so brace yourself: You are not fucking special in any way shape or form. Even if you graduated with the best marks in MIT and have been programming since the womb, guess what? So have people every single graduating year for the past 20 fricken years. The only constant in your never ending job search is - wait for it - YOU. Get over yourself. You are not entitled to anything. You are the lowest of the low, and have proved nothing to anyone that matters. Start the journey at the beginning. And Yes, you are at the beginning. Your accomplishments so far are shared by every single person in the work force. Be humble and gracious until you actually distinguish yourself.

astrofinch 16y ago

Hm. 'Fraid I don't see what a sense of entitlement has to do with the difficulty of picking up new programming languages.

chaostheory 16y ago
(Assuming he wants a technical job) not bothering to show proof of being proactive and learning a language in the two years he was out of work: posting an example of his work ala open source project or failed startup This can also apply in other ways too (graphic design, web design, charitable organization activities, etc...) My point is that I don't see a portfolio other than a single short story example.
ramchip 16y ago
Programming languages can't all be picked up that quickly, since semantics may differ a lot. You can't say "Give me any programming task and I'll pick it up". What if you're a Web guy and the task is a C++ medical application? What if we're a finance company and the language is Haskell or ML? There's no way someone with no experience in a related language could become proficient without a fairly long training period in the company. What if I'm a hardware IP company and the language is Verilog? To pretend that what takes many years and domain knowledge to become proficient in, you could just "pick up" on the go, is what sounds a bit entitled to me.
- BenSS 16y ago
  Once you know one language well, many of the skills transfer. Besides, he states he is looking for an ENTRY level position and fully realizes he's not a guru.
  - DisposaBoy 16y ago
    Yes many skills transfer. Like how one ane write C++ from readin the docs without ever learning C++ or how one can write C++ having only ever learned C. The part you're missing is that it doesn't make you any good in C++, in fact I'd argue that it makes you terrible if you're going to try to write X code in Y language. The fact that it's entry-level doesn't mean anything. A lot of times these entry-level jobs aren't something you can just go and start pasting code together.
  - Hubbert 16y ago
    Yes. Experience is great, but everyone has to start somewhere. The unemployment rate for under 25 is extremely high. Society doesn't focus much attention these days on "upward mobility." But but an overreliance on "experience" (generally "paid, professional experience"), in extremis, will permanently shut out an entire generation from the world of middle-class employment. Is that really a good idea? "Resolved: Individuals who did not have a good (preferably government) job on July 31, 2007 and a record of unblemished professional success with progressive experience and responsibility and no failures or false starts should abandon all hope." Is this really what we want to promote?
- jemfinch 16y ago
  > Programming languages can't all be picked up that quickly, since semantics may differ a lot. The second day with my new employer I was tasked with writing an analysis project in a language I'd never even heard of before joining. Within two weeks, I was writing code in that language every bit as good as my coworkers'. Your statement may hold true for people who know one or two languages (like most CS graduates these days), but once you know a wide array of languages (my list is Python, C and C++, OCaml and SML, Lisp and Scheme, Perl, and the semantics but not the libraries of Lua/Ruby/Java/Erlang/Haskell) picking up a new language really isn't a challenge at all: the semantics almost certainly fit somewhere in the space of the languages you know, and what small bits do not are easily learned. (As a side note, that's why I still put OCaml, Erlang, and Lisp on my resume; not that I imagine very many employers would be interested in working in those languages, but because I want them to know that whatever they do their work in likely lies within the range of my existing semantic knowledge.)
run4yourlives 16y ago
How about the fact that I'm not interested in paying you to learn - in either time or money. I might invest in that if you are worth it, but you need to prove that to me first. Assuming that I either am or that I should be paying for you to learn a new language when there are thousands of applicants that I don't have to do this for is the sense of entitlement that I'm talking about.
encoderer 16y ago
Within a given discipline (eg web development), picking up the syntax new language isn't too difficult. Then you have to navigate the new libraries which also isn't too hard. Basically.. What's the [new language] equivalent of [some method call] in [old language]. The trouble is picking-up the idiom: If you're a Java guy learning Python in this manner you're going to end up with a lot of java-looking python code. Nothing wrong with hiring a developer for a language he doesn't have a lot of personal experience with. But there's also nothing wrong with a company wanting to know which languages a developer knows. They shouldn't get a lecture for asking IMO.

treeface 16y ago

I agree with you almost entirely. One tiny exception: >I know it's tongue in cheek, but my god does the current generation not have any humility at all? Come on...how many times do we have to go through this "young whippersnappers don't have any humility anymore" nonsense before we recognize that young humans, in general, have less humility than they should? Just because you (perhaps) had more humility than this kid doesn't mean your entire generation did.

run4yourlives 16y ago
Disagree. I'm generation X. We all knew that we were the first generation to be worse off than our parents. We entered the economy when nobody was hiring, especially if you were a white male. Most of us were happy just to get a job. I was - get this - happy to get into the army. (Canada) It's more likely than not that we were the exception to the rule, I'll accept that. But I believe that my generation overall was most certainly more humble than the current one.
- treeface 16y ago
  "Generation X" doesn't tell me a whole lot about when you grew up as it appears to encompass a range of 20 years of births (1961-1981 according to WP). In the US (and I'll focus on the US because I think that's where the reverse application guy is from), the unemployment rate reached a peak of 10.8% toward the end of 1982, due largely to the monetary stabilization policies of Mr. Paul Adolph Volcker. In 1981 it was in the 7's and it was back down to the 7's by 1984. A bad recession, yes, but it led into an era of extended low unemployment rates (all the way down to around 5.2% in 1989) until the recession of the early 90s when it jumped back up to 7.8%. This didn't last for long, as the greatest period of extended prosperity the US has known in a long time dropped unemployment rates to the 3's, 4's, and 5's for much of the 90s. For a while there in the 80s and 90s, members of "generation X" actually came out of school with a better chance of landing a job than most graduating classes in the history of the US. In Canada, things actually happened to be quite a bit nastier then than they are now: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Unemployment-Rate.aspx?Symbol=CAD http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/Unemployment-Rate.... Now look at the current era. I graduated college in late 2007, at almost the exact moment hiring froze in almost every industry. By 2008, you'd be lucky to get a job if you had 5 years experience, nevermind zero. By 2009, the unemployment rate had jumped up to 10%, a level the US had not seen since the early college graduation days of "generation X". In 2010 we've seen moderate levels of hiring, but no sustained push. Now those of us who graduated in 2007 are looking at possibly a 4th year of sluggish hiring. So again...I maintain that young humans, in general, have less humility than they should (primarily because they don't know the difference between "good" and "bad"), but this level of humility in the application process (however you can even measure that) probably varies heavily on market conditions. If you graduated college in 1981...my condolences to you. You had it rough there for a few years. But try to keep in mind that there are lots of people out there right now who are in the exact same boat. And with regard to "being worse off than your parents", I don't think there's a young person alive in the US who isn't at least partially bitter about the massive debts your generation and the ones that came before it have left us with, all while being bragged at by older people about how amazingly humble they are. And let's also not forget that your generation isn't "worse off" than your parents if you're counting by measure of inflation-adjusted income. Also important to note: this kid wasn't getting responses from employers after going the humble applicant route. I had the exact same problem: people just wouldn't return my calls. So if he does have a lack of humility, it's a direct result of not having a job in a poor economy.

ajaimk 16y ago

I disagree. This guy is indeed special. If for no other reason than for the fact that he had the fucking guts to write this.

run4yourlives 16y ago
Sometimes, wisdom is preferable to guts.
- joelesler 16y ago
  Well said there.
- ajaimk 16y ago
  The young are foolish but brave, and the old are brave but cowardly. In the end, to each his own.
fady 16y ago
I agree, very well written. It has a fresh, unique take at getting work. Should not be overlooked.
werthog 16y ago
Guts? That would imply that he had anything to lose by doing this.

flipper 16y ago

Yeah, if I was an employer (and I have been from time to time) I'd probably read this, smile wryly, and move on. But someone else might not. I don't have a problem with the guy asserting that he can pick up new technologies quickly, as long as he expects he will only be offered entry-level positions. You do not write Python the way Shakespeare wrote prose after six months. I do however have problem with him not providing anything to back up his assertion. But he probably figures in a tight job market he needs to find a way to stand out, and this is it.

tlrobinson 16y ago
This stunt is an attention catcher but he can't seriously expect to get a job without at least an interview. And not some bullshit where he interviews the company. There's no way in hell I'd hire him without first checking his competency.
- jjs 16y ago
  > And not some bullshit where he interviews the company. A good candidate does that during any job interview. Two-way filtering helps all parties find better matches faster.
  - tlrobinson 16y ago
    Sure, but I'd expect to have a chance to really grill him as well.
    - davidandgoliath 16y ago
      That's what the contact form is for. He's merely sick of the hiring process, as are all of the people hiring.
      - tlrobinson 16y ago
        I'm not sure if you're suggesting using the contact form to ask him interview questions, or just to setup an interview, but if it's the former that's ridiculous.

KeithMajhor 16y ago

A person who "graduated with the best marks in MIT and has been programming since the womb" is special. The other people doing it "every single graduating year"... they're special too.

run4yourlives 16y ago
Not to me they aren't. If I needed a Rails app, DHH is special, not Mr. MIT womb programmer. There are very few "special" positions that a nice degree and IQ points alone are the only prerequisites.
- ph0rque 16y ago
  Good luck getting DHH to code your Rails app...
  - run4yourlives 16y ago
    Sigh... my original point seems to be lost arguing semantics with academics in this sub-thread it seems...
    - azanar 16y ago
      I'll not speak for everyone else. But, for me, your point got lost in the righteous indignation that came in subsequent replies in the sub-thread. It is very difficult to assert humility while maintaining an impression of the same. I only started replying when you made this about identity.
      - run4yourlives 16y ago
        Actually, I think what's happening is that a good number of people are taking my comments as some sort of personal attack, even though they aren't even directed at them specifically. Like I said: It attacks their world view. I'm playing the persona of a person that has been around the block a little too well perhaps to make a point. The fact is that there is always somebody more experienced, smarter, better than you are, no matter who you happen to be. Even if you are at the top of your game, changing the subject matter can easily knock you down a few pegs. I appreciate that what I'm saying may be lost on the youthful part of this audience and may be taken as me saying that I am better than you all because I have a few years on you. Be clear: this isn't what I am saying. I'm no less of an audience to my own comments as anyone else reading them.

SkyMarshal 16y ago

Be humble and gracious until you actually distinguish yourself. And even moreso afterwards.

run4yourlives 16y ago
Agreed. Although you have a little more room to be an ass if you can back it up.
- lsc 16y ago
  it's all contextual. If you are really good, your social skills matter a whole lot less. When you are not good, though, in many contexts, arrogance is better than appearing to lack confidence.
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  Hmm, I prefer non-asses myself but I think there are other options in the world besides humble and ass ...
joe_the_user 16y ago
That might have worked in a different world. Today, the only thing you want to do is hire public relations firm to tell people how you humble and gracious you are...

shareme 16y ago

I think the author did not go the extra mile here.. He should have made the text/content a program.. For example, I have a recruiter android game that I sometimes send to recruiters when they enter my inbox...answers their questions in a neat way and still allows me to poke fun at the process.... If I was a hiring manager(and I have been once or twice) I would turn him down without a 2nd glance.

jhen095 16y ago
Sorry, I must say it is kind of funny. With this reverse approach you don't get the chance to turn him down.

azanar 16y ago

If you really care which programming languages I already know or which applications I have used before, I can only assume that you're overlooking my ability to quickly pick up new technologies and adjust to new ways of thinking. This is going to ruin your world view, so brace yourself So, this is ridiculously tongue-in-cheek, and the reply is over-the-top to the degree that I can imagine with no effort the same being uttered from underneath a drill sergeant's hat against some fresh recruit who copped a serious attitude. It's not an unfair response to brash cockiness, but it has set me thinking. Whether a language, or a framework, or a library, or any other handy tool of the software trade, there seems to be two camps that drown everyone else out in the din. There's the camp that declares that learning new things is a matter of extrapolating from the understanding one has already developed to fit with whatever assumptions this instantiation of thing X makes. For instance, you understand what Object Oriented programming is, and how it works. You are presented with a language you have never used before, but know it has support for OO. This puts you from a level of having to understand OO to a level of understanding this language's semantics for OO. Then there's the camp that declares that learning new things always starts from a position of absolute ignorance. Prior knowledge and understanding of concepts that would seem to apply to this new thing you are learning don't apply, almost as an axiom. As with my example of OO above, it doesn't matter that you know what OO is, and what it means to the structure of your program. If you don't know OO in the language of discussion, you get no points toward credit of understanding OO. If I may be blunt, both these stances seem like bullshit. You don't magically know the syntax of how to do OO in a new language simply because you know OO from a theoretical level; it's something you have to look up. But different languages' implementation of OO aren't so disparate that the only thing they share is the name. There is a basis there you can rely on, but it doesn't get you 100% of the way there. I guess the question I don't think people answer enough, which I would like to inject into the conversation is "how far does it get you?" I realize that the answer will vary for different theoretical ideas, and different practical realizations of the same. The point of my question is to challenge the presumption that understanding of related concepts either gets you to the finish by default, or leaves you gasping at the starting along with the people who didn't have that understanding. I think this gets left behind when we start having all of these political battles based on generational identity, and I'd like to see what people think when smacking other generations around isn't the primary goal of a thread.

joe_the_user 16y ago

Wow... I'm sure no one anyone's heard that kind of attitude before, great to have you get that off your chest... The funniest thing is you also hear people toss around statistics about 9 out of 10 applications not being able to X... Well, if a potential employer treats someone as the "the lowest of the low", they might find out the person acts like that, aren't "up to our standards" and they stay with an unfilled position and the frustration of interviewing (and abusing) fifty more people, who are also "the lowest of the low"...

chegra 16y ago

"Be humble and gracious until you actually distinguish yourself" How about: "Be humble and gracious.(Period)" I think it is important to understand the tone in which he wrote this. He is not serious, but he is doing this to garner attention. Your response doesn't match his intended tone. It is like someone being upset at a joke; you are taking it too serious.

mcknz 16y ago

eh, admit it -- you're just bummed you didn't think of this first. :) Personally I didn't take this very seriously & figured it was a creative exercise or attention getter. Kinda like the guy who wears his resume as a sandwich board and walks around NYC. Makes you want to hire the guy even if he's just competent technically. Thought it was hilarious -- could probably get him a job at a marketing/ad tech firm. It's already getting him a bunch of good advice at HN, so looks like it's working...

scott_s 16y ago

Good timing. user: run4yourlives created: 1337 days ago

run4yourlives 16y ago
lol. This is the coolest thing I've ever done. ...and it was completely unintended. :-)

randomtask 16y ago

You know nothing of his situation and yet are willing to cast aspersions on his character. Before you go tarring a whole generation with the "entitled" label perhaps a little context from the generation that lacks humility might be in order. Friends of mine are in the same position as this guy. They recently graduated with good degrees from a decent university with no allusions that finding a job was going to be anything but difficult. Rather than feel like they're owed a job the ones I know have spent hours _every_ day applying for jobs for the past (up to) 2 years with no success. Most of the time they get no reply from these companies (fair enough), but the few times they do get an interview someone else with more experience gets the job. This is clearly a frustrating position to be in. They feel like they've done everything that was expected of them. They went to university and graduated with a good degree. Now they see their friends who left school and started working immediately progressing in their careers and can't help but feel like they should have done the same. All the while this goes on people from other generations who have jobs harp on about how it's a disgrace that there are so many people on social welfare and these people could find a job if they wanted. When my friends get asked what they do and they reply that they're unemployed they're treated like plague monkeys. They're villified by members of the media and politicians looking for votes. Still they perservere. Far from feel a sense of entitlement these people feel despair. You think they don't know that they're "not fucking special" as you so eloquently put it? If after two years of applying for jobs without an end in sight he feels like venting a little bit of frustration at the attitudes of recruiters towards people like him that's not the worst thing in the world. If his situation is even half as bad as some of my friends' I wouldn't dare condescend to him by calling him entitled, far from it. It's not often I get angry after reading a comment on HN.

danhak 16y ago
I cannot explain how much you have hit the nail on the head. I graduated from college in May and have been having the exact experience you describe. My generation has been described as entitled. Quite frankly, I do feel as if I am owed something, and that society at large has failed to keep its end of the bargain. For my entire life, I was told that if I work hard in school, bust my ass to go to a good university and graduate with quantitative degree, I should have no trouble finding work. Now, half a year out of school, I find myself rotting away at my parents house, sending applications to any organization that might conceivably hire me, with no prospects and with no illusions that I'll find work that is fulfilling or properly matches my skill set. The grandparent's post is condescending and presumptuous. My generation seems entitled because the reality we are now confronting does not match up with the fantasy world that adults have been preparing us for for our entire lives.

fleitz 16y ago

Channeling our inner Tyler Durden this morning?

aneth 16y ago

If you know it's tongue in cheek, why not call it a creative humorous expression of frustration instead of being angry at the kid? Frankly, I'd consider hiring him for being bold and thinking outside the box - if I had any position he was qualified for... Indeed, this stunt DID distinguish himself. He's here on the top of hacker news. Clever stunt if you ask me.

palewery 16y ago

I agree with the intent of his statement: Employees need someone who can adapt and learn new technologies. But if your "languages" are HTML and Visual Basic, you are not a good match for my open position. Since nothing is listed I have no idea if I want to spend the time filling out this form.

loup-vaillant 16y ago
you already spent the time stating you might not want to spend time…

sebastianavina 16y ago

> A job that offers many travel opportunities stands a stronger chance of winning me over. Anyone that loves job traveling, is either an idiot, or have never done job traveling... I smell a lot of non sense from this application...

elai 16y ago
He has no family or other ties that make it more inconvient, he's a person who is volunteering to do something that people many people find unenjoyable, it can be a plus to an employer.
jtbigwoo 16y ago
I loved the travel aspect of my job when I was in my 20's. I did nothing but work on the weekdays and nothing but play on the weekends (in almost any city in the country.)

terra_t 16y ago

The funny thing is that I think his job hunting strategy is essentially correct. However, you just can't be so brazen, arrogant, and transparently narcissistic about it. Narcissism is the new "N-word", but it's not a bad thing. It's really a fancy way to say "self esteem". Psychoanalysts, since the 1960s, have come to see that postmodern people don't (usually) have the Oedipal problems that Freud talked about, but instead they have trouble with self esteem. There are a number of causes for this, but one of them is the massive exposure we get to the mass media. We all see people who are fantastically talented and successful (Bill Gates, Payton Manning, Jerry Garcia, etc,) we get massive doses of the "pornography of success" but we don't get realistic role models growing up. A lot of the people who read HN were people who "knew" they were smarter than anybody else in their peer group, but were in the shadow of Einstein, Bogart and Warhol. Bright and talented kids often don't feel like they have comparable peers, so they compare themselves to inaccessable superstars. Narcissism isn't bad, it's just a part of your mind, just like your heart is part of your body. However, Narcissism can malfunction, and a common form of malfunction is another preoedpial phenomenon called "Splitting", where you perceive things as all good or all bad. One day you feel like you're the best in the world, and really special because of that, then the next day you feel like the worst in the world and you're special because of that too. It can really mess up your head and make you miserable and ineffective. I'm not a professional, but I think this guy is experiencing splitting... He puffs up this big image of his self-importance because he also feels like he's small and unimportant. His process of healing and growing up means that he's got to integrate his feelings of "I'm awesome" with his feelings that "I'm worthless" and develop a realistic appraisal of who he is. Unfortunately, that's a very difficult task in the postmodern age. Anyhow, sending out resumes is a crappy way to get a job, particularly in a down economy. You really do want leads to come to you, and there are a few ways of doing that. I really like Neal Schaffer's approach to using LinkedIn, which is all about "digging your well before you are thirsty" http://amzn.to/c4B7RP http://amzn.to/c4B7RP My experience is that arrogance is an absolute killer in the job hunting process. I had a time, years ago, when I had a crappy resume, and just getting interviews was a challenge. After a while I had great experience, and I'd get interviews for maybe 50% of the applications I sent in... I'd just blow the interviews. I looked at why I was blowing the interviews and I found that arrogance was a big factor, so I made a point to tone it down. My issue now is that I feel programming is a dead end and I'm more interested in a management role. In my area, there's definitely a problem of "too many indians and not enough chiefs"; software projects often have nobody leading them at all, or if somebody is driving the bus, they're second-rate salespeople, experts in entomology, or otherwise people who don't understand the issues of IT management. People around here are much more interested in hiring junior developers who will go screw up their projects than they are in somebody experience who can help a team get the little things right consistently. My answer? Start my own business. I'm old enough that I'd only apply to Y Combinator as a prelude to filing an age descrimination lawsuit. However, I'm learning to combine my programming ideas with some very hard-nosed business ideas and bootstrapping something that, someday, might become really awesome.

Marticus 16y ago

While I see your point (I agree for the most part), I do hold that while it is being a bit... overconfident(?) I do see that is a problem sometimes in companies. I think it's mostly a fault in recruiters as some of the more-technical positions are frankly over their heads, but nonetheless I myself have had a few failed interviews because the people weren't willing to take me on my word that if I am passionate enough about something, I WILL learn it and I will be GOOD at what I do. But that alone will not net you a job. I think part of his problem is a lack of persistence. We are (for the most part) hackers of some flavour here, and hearing "we'll get back to you" when we know that's "you will never hear from us again" is unacceptable. So go hunt down the recruiting manager. If that fails, hunt down someone who likely holds a similar position and who you can impress to the point that they might vouch for you. Take alternative routes, and be DAMN persistent and passionate about the job you are trying for, even if it may not be 'teh bestest job evar.' Make them believe that you think it is. As someone commented below, they get tons of resumes (especially now). You've gotta stand out. If that means rolling up to some business in a suit and tie one day and wanting an interview so you can circumvent lackluster recruiters, so be it, or setting up an interview with (insert manager here) because you can Google things / social engineer a bit (obviously you don't want to lie, but you'd be surprised how few questions receptionists ask - usually just your name).

SeamusBrady 16y ago

Jeese - this is a tough crowd. I can think of several Irish businesses that I have worked for that would grab this guy straight away to train him. He may not be the worlds greatest programmer (he does not claim to be) but his attitude is great, he is creative and resourceful for thinking of this idea and he does not take himself too seriously. I have trained several hundred people in software development when working as a contract trainer and it was always attitude that allowed me to guess who would be the more competent programmer. I would prefer to hire a well rounded competent young person who could become a solid competent developer that some rockstar programmer with no personality. Fair play to this guy, he is doing something original instead of feeling sorry for himself.

forgottenpaswrd 16y ago

"I know it's tongue in cheek, but my god does the current generation not have any humility at all?" My god does people from older generations not label an entire group taking solely one sample?