10 ms·

"Oh you want to take a moral stand? Ok, the door is that way. We've just successfully lobbied for a few hundred more H1B's that will do anything we tell them"

by swebs 8y ago

adriancooney 8y ago
For all we know this could have happened!
jstanley 8y ago
If the company is asking you to do things that you find ethically untenable, you should leave, even in full knowledge that the company will find a way to do it anyway.
- mattferderer 8y ago
  You should first ask, can I & others change the company from within. Many people credit a small group of Microsoft employees for getting the company to embrace open source. This group grew from within as I'm told.
  - codethief 8y ago
    > Many people credit a small group of Microsoft employees for getting the company to embrace open source. This group grew from within as I'm told. I've been wondering how this transition came about. Do you have more information on that (e.g. an article or a blog post that you could refer me to)?
    - mattferderer 8y ago
      Just years of seeing them credited in random forums & social media sites. Quick Google Search: Credits Hanselman & Guthrie - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8596268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8596268 AMA w/ Hanselman mentions it being 10 yrs ago - https://hashnode.com/ama/with-scott-hanselman-cjbx98jh506b34cwtk99ik5ep https://hashnode.com/ama/with-scott-hanselman-cjbx98jh506b34... This article might be exactly what you're looking for - https://thenewstack.io/microsoft-finally-came-around-open-source/ https://thenewstack.io/microsoft-finally-came-around-open-so...
  - hanniabu 8y ago
    I'd bet that's a PR stunt to retain employees
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  They are lotsa shades of gray and (virtually) every company does things that are somewhat fishy. But, IMO, Google has gone to black
- laumars 8y ago
  In an ideal world, yes. But people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. It's all good and well placing generalised ethics on individuals to do the right thing but in those kind of ideal world scenarios you also wouldn't have accountants finding tax loopholes, lawyers perpetuating patent abuse, nor company directors asking their staff to do morally objectionable things to begin with.
  - wu-ikkyu 8y ago
    >people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. So what? Standing up for what you believe in is never easy, and almost always involves challenges like those. Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis. Failing to take a moral/ethical stand because you're worried you might lose money or have to withstand some social anxiety blatantly shows that you don't really believe in those morals/ethics.
    - amyjess 8y ago
      You don't have a right to subject your children to homelessness just because you felt like taking a stance based on feelings.
      - icebraining 8y ago
        Does one have a right to give a crappy life example to one's children?
    - thecatspaw 8y ago
      So, assuming you're tight on money, the job market is looking crap, but you got lucky and got a well paying job. Chances of getting another job are slim. You have a few responsibilities, a wife, say 2 kids, maybe even someone who needs medical bills paid. Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies? Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic, say something ludicrous like giving google nuclear launch codes, then the whole thing looks different. Some things are worth the fight, some are not.
- namesbc 8y ago
  Come on. Most users want their "chrome google account" to be the same as their "web google account", and it is confusing when they aren't. You can argue it is unethical to build tech for the military. But you have a really broad definition of unethical if it includes improving a product so the default is what most users want, and you need to adjust some things to make it the way you want.
nathan_long 8y ago
"OK, no problem. Having Google on my resume means I can get a new job by the end of the week. I'll be sure to spread the word to users and developers alike that you're shady." Let's not pretend that developers are powerless.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  Having Google on your resume is in no way impressive in my opinion. I have reviewed plenty of resumes and been part of the interview process. Being a Google employee just doesn't matter.
  - duxup 8y ago
    Why not?
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      It just simply doesn't set a candidate apart from anyone else. Just like what school someone went to. I simply don't care if it was an ivy league school or local school. It doesn't matter. what really matters is their accomplishments. Trading on a name is not going to work for me.
      - throwawaymath 8y ago
        But since you mentioned this is your opinion, you do acknowledge that these forms of signalling are effective for most other hiring managers, right? Your view is pretty atypical. Not to be blunt, but your perspective on Google employees is irrelevant in the context of how they're perceived by the broader market. I think that's why your other comment is being downvoted; it seems like what you're saying isn't wrong per se, it's just inconsequential to the job prospects Google employees actually have. Even though you're a hiring manager and don't personally consider Google employment to be a plus, most other hiring managers really do.
  - patrec 8y ago
    Your opinion is not representative and thus not relevant to the argument (that ex-Google engineers have very good job prospects).
icemelt8 8y ago
I will keep using Google Chrome, no matter what they track, or what cookies they keep. I have nothing to hide, I just want a really good browser, which Chrome is.
api 8y ago
This problem can only be solved by legislation. There's money in surveillance capitalism, so the money will be grabbed.
e98cuenc 8y ago
American engineers good boys. Foreigners bad boys. Gotcha
neil_s 8y ago
Painting all workers on H1-B visas in one brush seems unfair. The H1-Bs at Google get paid way more than the H1-Bs at companies like Wipro or Infosys. [1] These are skilled workers, with options, that happen to be foreign. Not foreign workers that are just skilled enough and grateful enough. 1: https://h1bdata.info/highestpaidcompany.php https://h1bdata.info/highestpaidcompany.php
39d3493I93 8y ago
I am sure people will knee-jerk dismiss the following, but it's almost as if Google has been invaded and conquered and turned into an Indian/Chinese/non-American company with a vast majority of the salary wealth flowing into the hands of those who have diminished allegiances to the USA or American values or even western values and that value is flowing out of the USA and into the hands of non-Americans by various means and methods, including remittances. Who would have known considering the Google CEO is an Indian paper-American that still has such a strong Indian accent that he is largely unintelligible even after 24 or so years in the USA.
HissingMachine 8y ago
"Let's not go to the moon, I have heard that it's really really hard." -JFK
riantogo 8y ago
What is with the H1B bashing? Have you met a representative sample of people in H1B? How is your prejudice any different from being a racist or sexist? Just because visa type is not a protected class? I highly recommend talking to many more people on H1B and if even a few doesn't fit your preconceived notion, kindly stop this bashing. It is people you are dealing with.
superkuh 8y ago
You gotta be the change you want to see in the world, even if you know it's not going to make a significant difference by itself. Sure, they'll hire someone else. But that's not the point. The point is sticking to your ethics.
sctb 8y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18065083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18065083.

"Oh you want to take a moral stand? Ok, the door is that way. We've just successfully lobbied for a few hundred more H1B's that will do anything we tell them"

by swebs 8y ago

"Oh you want to take a moral stand? Ok, the door is that way. We've just successfully lobbied for a few hundred more H1B's that will do anything we tell them"

adriancooney 8y ago

For all we know this could have happened!

jstanley 8y ago

If the company is asking you to do things that you find ethically untenable, you should leave, even in full knowledge that the company will find a way to do it anyway.

mattferderer 8y ago
You should first ask, can I & others change the company from within. Many people credit a small group of Microsoft employees for getting the company to embrace open source. This group grew from within as I'm told.
- codethief 8y ago
  > Many people credit a small group of Microsoft employees for getting the company to embrace open source. This group grew from within as I'm told. I've been wondering how this transition came about. Do you have more information on that (e.g. an article or a blog post that you could refer me to)?
  - mattferderer 8y ago
    Just years of seeing them credited in random forums & social media sites. Quick Google Search: Credits Hanselman & Guthrie - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8596268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8596268 AMA w/ Hanselman mentions it being 10 yrs ago - https://hashnode.com/ama/with-scott-hanselman-cjbx98jh506b34cwtk99ik5ep https://hashnode.com/ama/with-scott-hanselman-cjbx98jh506b34... This article might be exactly what you're looking for - https://thenewstack.io/microsoft-finally-came-around-open-source/ https://thenewstack.io/microsoft-finally-came-around-open-so...
- hanniabu 8y ago
  I'd bet that's a PR stunt to retain employees
onetimemanytime 8y ago
They are lotsa shades of gray and (virtually) every company does things that are somewhat fishy. But, IMO, Google has gone to black
laumars 8y ago
In an ideal world, yes. But people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. It's all good and well placing generalised ethics on individuals to do the right thing but in those kind of ideal world scenarios you also wouldn't have accountants finding tax loopholes, lawyers perpetuating patent abuse, nor company directors asking their staff to do morally objectionable things to begin with.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  >people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. So what? Standing up for what you believe in is never easy, and almost always involves challenges like those. Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis. Failing to take a moral/ethical stand because you're worried you might lose money or have to withstand some social anxiety blatantly shows that you don't really believe in those morals/ethics.
  - amyjess 8y ago
    You don't have a right to subject your children to homelessness just because you felt like taking a stance based on feelings.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Does one have a right to give a crappy life example to one's children?
  - thecatspaw 8y ago
    So, assuming you're tight on money, the job market is looking crap, but you got lucky and got a well paying job. Chances of getting another job are slim. You have a few responsibilities, a wife, say 2 kids, maybe even someone who needs medical bills paid. Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies? Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic, say something ludicrous like giving google nuclear launch codes, then the whole thing looks different. Some things are worth the fight, some are not.
namesbc 8y ago
Come on. Most users want their "chrome google account" to be the same as their "web google account", and it is confusing when they aren't. You can argue it is unethical to build tech for the military. But you have a really broad definition of unethical if it includes improving a product so the default is what most users want, and you need to adjust some things to make it the way you want.

nathan_long 8y ago

"OK, no problem. Having Google on my resume means I can get a new job by the end of the week. I'll be sure to spread the word to users and developers alike that you're shady." Let's not pretend that developers are powerless.

paulie_a 8y ago
Having Google on your resume is in no way impressive in my opinion. I have reviewed plenty of resumes and been part of the interview process. Being a Google employee just doesn't matter.
- duxup 8y ago
  Why not?
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    It just simply doesn't set a candidate apart from anyone else. Just like what school someone went to. I simply don't care if it was an ivy league school or local school. It doesn't matter. what really matters is their accomplishments. Trading on a name is not going to work for me.
    - throwawaymath 8y ago
      But since you mentioned this is your opinion, you do acknowledge that these forms of signalling are effective for most other hiring managers, right? Your view is pretty atypical. Not to be blunt, but your perspective on Google employees is irrelevant in the context of how they're perceived by the broader market. I think that's why your other comment is being downvoted; it seems like what you're saying isn't wrong per se, it's just inconsequential to the job prospects Google employees actually have. Even though you're a hiring manager and don't personally consider Google employment to be a plus, most other hiring managers really do.
- patrec 8y ago
  Your opinion is not representative and thus not relevant to the argument (that ex-Google engineers have very good job prospects).

icemelt8 8y ago

I will keep using Google Chrome, no matter what they track, or what cookies they keep. I have nothing to hide, I just want a really good browser, which Chrome is.

api 8y ago

This problem can only be solved by legislation. There's money in surveillance capitalism, so the money will be grabbed.

e98cuenc 8y ago

American engineers good boys. Foreigners bad boys. Gotcha

neil_s 8y ago

Painting all workers on H1-B visas in one brush seems unfair. The H1-Bs at Google get paid way more than the H1-Bs at companies like Wipro or Infosys. [1] These are skilled workers, with options, that happen to be foreign. Not foreign workers that are just skilled enough and grateful enough. 1: https://h1bdata.info/highestpaidcompany.php https://h1bdata.info/highestpaidcompany.php

39d3493I93 8y ago

I am sure people will knee-jerk dismiss the following, but it's almost as if Google has been invaded and conquered and turned into an Indian/Chinese/non-American company with a vast majority of the salary wealth flowing into the hands of those who have diminished allegiances to the USA or American values or even western values and that value is flowing out of the USA and into the hands of non-Americans by various means and methods, including remittances. Who would have known considering the Google CEO is an Indian paper-American that still has such a strong Indian accent that he is largely unintelligible even after 24 or so years in the USA.

HissingMachine 8y ago

"Let's not go to the moon, I have heard that it's really really hard." -JFK

riantogo 8y ago

What is with the H1B bashing? Have you met a representative sample of people in H1B? How is your prejudice any different from being a racist or sexist? Just because visa type is not a protected class? I highly recommend talking to many more people on H1B and if even a few doesn't fit your preconceived notion, kindly stop this bashing. It is people you are dealing with.

superkuh 8y ago

You gotta be the change you want to see in the world, even if you know it's not going to make a significant difference by itself. Sure, they'll hire someone else. But that's not the point. The point is sticking to your ethics.

sctb 8y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18065083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18065083.