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That feels like whitewashing part of the blame that applies to engineers and product developers. We don't get to say "oh it's those pesky money people, how dare

That feels like whitewashing part of the blame that applies to engineers and product developers. We don't get to say "oh it's those pesky money people, how dare they", while drawing a salary from the same pockets.

49531 8y ago
That just feels like Stallman-esque "lifestyleism". It's okay to be critical of a system while living in and part of it.
radiorental 8y ago
It's not a simple blame game. Whomever controls the product definition rules the roost. E.g. good luck trying to be a developer at Microsoft 10 years ago in Balmer's 'embrace, extend, extinguish' model That is to say, it's organisational dna that dictates who defines the product. Once the 'specs' have been written, hands are tied.
- SheinhardtWigCo 8y ago
  It’s actually very simple: anyone who makes a living from working on this product owns a share of the blame. Nobody in this industry can claim to have their hands tied; it’s not difficult for folks talented enough to land a job at Google to instead find work that doesn’t involve violating privacy at web scale. If you write code or participate in meetings intended to execute on a corrupt vision then you are tainted.
- growse 8y ago
  I disagree. Specifications require implementation, and the implementation literally comes out of the engineers' fingers - if none of the engineers agreed to implement something they thought was unethical, then it's mostly irrelevant what the product definition says.
snarfy 8y ago
They disagree with the direction the company is going so they ... quit? They apply at some other company comparable to Google, uproot their family, move across country, and get a job somewhere else? I don't blame the engineers one bit. I certainly don't expect the poor engineer that had to implement the cookie changes to refuse and quit his job over it.
- nothrabannosir 8y ago
  > I certainly don't expect the poor engineer that had to implement the cookie changes to refuse and quit his job over it. There are no poor engineers at Google. That is, ironically, the point people are making: if you make that much money doing something so (arguably) distasteful, you deserve scorn. It's in the "you can't have your cake and eat it too" family.
  - close04 8y ago
    There’s a difference between coming up with the requirement and the “order”, and implementing it because that’s your job. And don’t say they should quit. This isn’t the solution. At some point they will find an engineer to do it anyway. The solution should be applied at the source.
    - braythwayt 8y ago
      There is a wikipedia page devoted to the argument that they were only doing their job: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
      - darkcha0s 8y ago
        Are you really comparing a software developer completing tickets based on requirements to Nazis being told to kill? The fact that you need to draw that comparison tells me you are going overboard.
        braythwayt 8y ago
        No, I’m not comparing engineers at Google to prison camp guards. I’m comparing the argument that the Google engineer is just following orders to the argument that camp guards were just following orders. I’m not the one who brought up the exact same defense. But if that defence is brought up, Perhaps the person emplying that argument should be asked if they meant to make the comparison indirectly by using the same argument.
pmontra 8y ago
Exactly, there are plenty of other companies to go working for. People working for Google at best accept a compromise, at worst are actively working against their customers (should I say users?) That said, as a customer I'm using an Android phone because IMHO anything else is a worse choice for a number of reasons. At least I'm signed out of any Google service except Play.
- pmlnr 8y ago
  > any Google service except Play Yeah, that's enough, that logs you in on google play services, which has god mode on your phone.
  - snaky 8y ago
    Having play services (https://github.com/opengapps https://github.com/opengapps) on LineageOS is not like that. You can go to Privacy Guard and deny any permissions from Play Services.
    - pmlnr 8y ago
      Sure. Is it still in /system/priv-apps? If yes, you're wrong, it still has god mode.
ptero 8y ago
Engineers losing control to money types and bureaucrats is a gradual process. It is not that one day Google strikes out the second word from its unofficial motto ("do not be evil"). Engineers might dislike each small step in that direction, but it is not enough to make them pack up and move (house, family, kids, etc.). Pretty quickly they are tamed by both money people and the bureaucrats -- still appreciated and paid, but as brains to be tasked, with no ability to influence company policy. People accept a LOT with gradual changes over a few years that they would never accept as an upfront bulk package. This is not just in engineering. But there is a flip side to this -- once bureaucrats are in control and engineers who stay accept "that is the way we do it" as a justification they often lose energy and become set in their ways. This is more dangerous to a company than a rotting executive class. My 2c.
- nojvek 8y ago
  I wouldn’t call Microsoft as a company returning control to Engineers and product. I bought a surface pad for my dad. Setting up was a pain, my dad had constant issues where he’d do something and didn’t know how to get out of it. UX was inconsistent. Bing ads everywhere. Yuck! It still very much felt like features were created for someone to get a promo. Google at the moment feels like a ruthless data driven company. “Our charts show that with this change people use more google services. It invades user’s privacy and pisses off a bunch of HN users but who cares? This will make us a trillion dollar company, and it is working!” And this is why everyone should fear Google. If they are willing to do this, as their AI capabilities advance, their actions show they value their stock price far above their users privacy. God knows what they’ll do next. It’s not the first time they’ve done something like this. On the other hand. The current US govt is in bed with Google. They lobby like crazy. The govt will not do anything. Gogo is a behemoth that can pretty much get away with anything now. May be the EU will. I really hope they get fined for this.
  - ptero 8y ago
    > I wouldn’t call Microsoft as a company returning control to Engineers and product. I would not either, but this just reinforces the opinion that it is very hard for a company to get out of this state. Once engineers are domesticated even if the leadership wants to reinvigorate the company (and I think Microsoft's would like), empowering tame engineers is unlikely to produce earth-shattering results. Product improvements, sure; new technologies, probably not. My 2c.
talltimtom 8y ago
Yes we do. Just like Tesla employees get to critizise Musk for his Twitter market manipulation while still working their day job and drawing a sallery, and Americans can criticize Trump whithout moving out of the country. Just because you are a benefitting part of an organization, it doesn’t mean you cannot disagree with management and if you disagree it doesn’t mean you have to quit or stop being critical.
- HelloNurse 8y ago
  Twitter market manipulation is entirely Elon Musk's fault, not something Tesla and its employees are responsible for (except, perhaps, for some inner circle who might have stopped him). On the other hand, the newly revised Chrome is a core product: disagreeing with management but allowing it to be distributed isn't enough.
czechdeveloper 8y ago
But are there any moral corporations left? It feels like you can just keep running.
- mbostleman 8y ago
  Is it the responsibility of a corporation to be moral or is the responsibility of the shareholders and customers to keep them moral?
- trophycase 8y ago
  Not really, gotta work for small businesses or start your own.
  - czechdeveloper 8y ago
    And those will be sold to evil corp later on or will do subcontractors for them. I do not see any escape.
    - mrguyorama 8y ago
      If you start a small business and then do those things, then you can no longer blame other people; You are the immoral person
mdgrech23 8y ago
It's not their pockets. We need to ditch this notion that marketing/business people provide our salary.
SilasX 8y ago
Yeah, they do. That's exactly how it works with real (certified, legally-enforced labeling of) engineering. That is, civil engineers push back against (excessive) safety-cutting to save money while drawing a salary from the same companies that want to implement such design changes. They only differ in how effectively they have organized to prevent being overruled.
jlarocco 8y ago
I agree to some extent, but at the same time I think it would be silly for somebody to take a stand over this. In the grand scheme of things, this is a pretty small issue compared to all the other tracking they do and things like "Project Dragonfly".

49531 8y ago

That just feels like Stallman-esque "lifestyleism". It's okay to be critical of a system while living in and part of it.

radiorental 8y ago

It's not a simple blame game. Whomever controls the product definition rules the roost. E.g. good luck trying to be a developer at Microsoft 10 years ago in Balmer's 'embrace, extend, extinguish' model That is to say, it's organisational dna that dictates who defines the product. Once the 'specs' have been written, hands are tied.

SheinhardtWigCo 8y ago
It’s actually very simple: anyone who makes a living from working on this product owns a share of the blame. Nobody in this industry can claim to have their hands tied; it’s not difficult for folks talented enough to land a job at Google to instead find work that doesn’t involve violating privacy at web scale. If you write code or participate in meetings intended to execute on a corrupt vision then you are tainted.
growse 8y ago
I disagree. Specifications require implementation, and the implementation literally comes out of the engineers' fingers - if none of the engineers agreed to implement something they thought was unethical, then it's mostly irrelevant what the product definition says.

snarfy 8y ago

They disagree with the direction the company is going so they ... quit? They apply at some other company comparable to Google, uproot their family, move across country, and get a job somewhere else? I don't blame the engineers one bit. I certainly don't expect the poor engineer that had to implement the cookie changes to refuse and quit his job over it.

nothrabannosir 8y ago
> I certainly don't expect the poor engineer that had to implement the cookie changes to refuse and quit his job over it. There are no poor engineers at Google. That is, ironically, the point people are making: if you make that much money doing something so (arguably) distasteful, you deserve scorn. It's in the "you can't have your cake and eat it too" family.
- close04 8y ago
  There’s a difference between coming up with the requirement and the “order”, and implementing it because that’s your job. And don’t say they should quit. This isn’t the solution. At some point they will find an engineer to do it anyway. The solution should be applied at the source.
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    There is a wikipedia page devoted to the argument that they were only doing their job: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders
    - darkcha0s 8y ago
      Are you really comparing a software developer completing tickets based on requirements to Nazis being told to kill? The fact that you need to draw that comparison tells me you are going overboard.
      - braythwayt 8y ago
        No, I’m not comparing engineers at Google to prison camp guards. I’m comparing the argument that the Google engineer is just following orders to the argument that camp guards were just following orders. I’m not the one who brought up the exact same defense. But if that defence is brought up, Perhaps the person emplying that argument should be asked if they meant to make the comparison indirectly by using the same argument.

pmontra 8y ago

Exactly, there are plenty of other companies to go working for. People working for Google at best accept a compromise, at worst are actively working against their customers (should I say users?) That said, as a customer I'm using an Android phone because IMHO anything else is a worse choice for a number of reasons. At least I'm signed out of any Google service except Play.

pmlnr 8y ago
> any Google service except Play Yeah, that's enough, that logs you in on google play services, which has god mode on your phone.
- snaky 8y ago
  Having play services (https://github.com/opengapps https://github.com/opengapps) on LineageOS is not like that. You can go to Privacy Guard and deny any permissions from Play Services.
  - pmlnr 8y ago
    Sure. Is it still in /system/priv-apps? If yes, you're wrong, it still has god mode.

ptero 8y ago

Engineers losing control to money types and bureaucrats is a gradual process. It is not that one day Google strikes out the second word from its unofficial motto ("do not be evil"). Engineers might dislike each small step in that direction, but it is not enough to make them pack up and move (house, family, kids, etc.). Pretty quickly they are tamed by both money people and the bureaucrats -- still appreciated and paid, but as brains to be tasked, with no ability to influence company policy. People accept a LOT with gradual changes over a few years that they would never accept as an upfront bulk package. This is not just in engineering. But there is a flip side to this -- once bureaucrats are in control and engineers who stay accept "that is the way we do it" as a justification they often lose energy and become set in their ways. This is more dangerous to a company than a rotting executive class. My 2c.

nojvek 8y ago
I wouldn’t call Microsoft as a company returning control to Engineers and product. I bought a surface pad for my dad. Setting up was a pain, my dad had constant issues where he’d do something and didn’t know how to get out of it. UX was inconsistent. Bing ads everywhere. Yuck! It still very much felt like features were created for someone to get a promo. Google at the moment feels like a ruthless data driven company. “Our charts show that with this change people use more google services. It invades user’s privacy and pisses off a bunch of HN users but who cares? This will make us a trillion dollar company, and it is working!” And this is why everyone should fear Google. If they are willing to do this, as their AI capabilities advance, their actions show they value their stock price far above their users privacy. God knows what they’ll do next. It’s not the first time they’ve done something like this. On the other hand. The current US govt is in bed with Google. They lobby like crazy. The govt will not do anything. Gogo is a behemoth that can pretty much get away with anything now. May be the EU will. I really hope they get fined for this.
- ptero 8y ago
  > I wouldn’t call Microsoft as a company returning control to Engineers and product. I would not either, but this just reinforces the opinion that it is very hard for a company to get out of this state. Once engineers are domesticated even if the leadership wants to reinvigorate the company (and I think Microsoft's would like), empowering tame engineers is unlikely to produce earth-shattering results. Product improvements, sure; new technologies, probably not. My 2c.

talltimtom 8y ago

Yes we do. Just like Tesla employees get to critizise Musk for his Twitter market manipulation while still working their day job and drawing a sallery, and Americans can criticize Trump whithout moving out of the country. Just because you are a benefitting part of an organization, it doesn’t mean you cannot disagree with management and if you disagree it doesn’t mean you have to quit or stop being critical.

HelloNurse 8y ago
Twitter market manipulation is entirely Elon Musk's fault, not something Tesla and its employees are responsible for (except, perhaps, for some inner circle who might have stopped him). On the other hand, the newly revised Chrome is a core product: disagreeing with management but allowing it to be distributed isn't enough.

czechdeveloper 8y ago

But are there any moral corporations left? It feels like you can just keep running.

mbostleman 8y ago
Is it the responsibility of a corporation to be moral or is the responsibility of the shareholders and customers to keep them moral?
trophycase 8y ago
Not really, gotta work for small businesses or start your own.
- czechdeveloper 8y ago
  And those will be sold to evil corp later on or will do subcontractors for them. I do not see any escape.
  - mrguyorama 8y ago
    If you start a small business and then do those things, then you can no longer blame other people; You are the immoral person

mdgrech23 8y ago

It's not their pockets. We need to ditch this notion that marketing/business people provide our salary.

SilasX 8y ago

Yeah, they do. That's exactly how it works with real (certified, legally-enforced labeling of) engineering. That is, civil engineers push back against (excessive) safety-cutting to save money while drawing a salary from the same companies that want to implement such design changes. They only differ in how effectively they have organized to prevent being overruled.

jlarocco 8y ago

I agree to some extent, but at the same time I think it would be silly for somebody to take a stand over this. In the grand scheme of things, this is a pretty small issue compared to all the other tracking they do and things like "Project Dragonfly".