21 ms·

I say no. I use my iPhone heavily as a synth or guitar processor etc. Bluetooth latency is too high to make it useable wirelessly so I require a hardwire into a

I say no. I use my iPhone heavily as a synth or guitar processor etc. Bluetooth latency is too high to make it useable wirelessly so I require a hardwire into a mixer to perform. The iPhone has the lowest latency audio stack of smartphones when used with a wire. This is important and removing the headphone jack means dongles or latency. What makes this especially bad is that the iPhone camera connector dongle is already required when plugging in many MIDI controllers. This has prevented me from upgrading beyond my 6s as many of my apps are challenged without a real-time audio output that doesn’t also use my lightning connector which I need for the camera connector.

village-idiot 8y ago
While that’s quite unfortunate for you, is this a use case that affects a lot of users? I imagine that people in your situation are far less common than those who think the bundled headphones are good enough.
- exabrial 8y ago
  Hardly an edge case. Consider the revenue generated by the Line6 Helix or Headrush and their many clones; it's a substantial revenue generator for these companies. Most live music musicians also purchase custom molded IEMs to protect their hearing and listen to a click track. Digital wireless audio simply does not work here. Even major brands like Sennheiser forgo digital transmission on their monitoring wireless packs because 5ms of latency is enough to induce combfiltering and throw a performer off.
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    You seem to misunderstand my point. I get that wires are better for serious musicians. I doubt that the number of people depending on their iPhones for low latency audio work is dwarfed by the number of people doing latency insensitive things like listening to podcasts or iTunes. iPhones are primarily consumer products, so catering to consumer and not professional needs first makes sense. Heck, the stuff you mentioned appears to be purpose built audio equipment. How would that be affected by the iPhone ditching the headphone jack?
    - snovv_crash 8y ago
      The difference is that now you won't see DJs in front of crowds using Apple products. Apple has decided to trade measurable cost-cutting for non-measurable brand prestige, and in the next few years I expect Microsoft to launch a new mobile/desktop hybrid with an ad about how Apple is what your grandparents use, and cool young trendy people use Windows.
      - 1123581321 8y ago
        That wouldn’t be a new move for Microsoft. They have found some success with Surface and they’re expanding the line. However, they are making similar trade-offs to Apple where able. They may release a new, popular product, but it will just solidify the trends that people in this thread are complaining about.
      - guitarbill 8y ago
        > The difference is that now you won't see DJs in front of crowds using Apple products. OK, I'll call BS. iPhones and iPads are barely used for live performances. On the Macbook side, other than USB-A, what have they gotten rid of that DJs truly need for performances? We were using USB MIDI interfaces and USB audio interfaces long before the optical audio out went away. Meanwhile I know a few musicians who haven't touched a Microsoft OS in over 10 years (!). Yeah, Microsoft finally introduced an Audio API in Vista to take on CoreAudio, but that isn't new. Does anybody like Windows 10 given the choice? If anything, I'd expect Microsoft's infamous Update strategy to make anything Windows 10 a non-option for live gigs. About the only argument I can think of is that musicians with less budget might lean more towards a Windows-based DAW.
      - village-idiot 8y ago
        Thanks for downvoting and then ignoring my point. I’ll repeat since you seem to have reading issues: how many serious musicians were depending on iPhones for live production instead of laptops or purpose built hardware?
        dang 8y ago
  - UncleMeat 8y ago
    Sennheiser's revenue in 2017 was 600m. In 2017, Apple's revenue was 220b.
- imtringued 8y ago
  Well, at a minimum, it affects all people that want to play video games.
wilsonfiifi 8y ago
Or you could just use an iPad or iPad mini?
martin-adams 8y ago
I feel your pain. I can’t use an external mic with my iPhone on a gimbal because the dongle causes a gap meaning it won’t balance. These aren’t mainstream problems, but are problems nonetheless. I don’t mind using a dongle, as long as it works. In my case, there is no solution. That Why I still use my old Samsung on the gimbal.
- panic 8y ago
  Maybe these aren't mainstream problems, but they do reflect a change in Apple's brand. Apple used to position themselves as the brand for artists, musicians, and other creative types. They even used to hide an optical audio port in the MacBook Pro headphone jack -- talk about a niche feature! But around the same time iPhones lost their headphone jack, the laptops lost their optical port: https://appleinsider.com/articles/16/11/02/new-macbook-pro-drops-optical-audio-out-through-headphone-jack https://appleinsider.com/articles/16/11/02/new-macbook-pro-d.... I'm sure it's ultimately because Tim doesn't care as much as Steve about this stuff, but it does feel like something is being lost.
  - ohyes 8y ago
    It was part of their branding, Apple stuff is for creative people, it lets them get shit done. Now it’s more of a status symbol, I’ve got an apple rather than a crappy generic android or think pad.
  - _red 8y ago
    Tim Cook is to Apple as Steve Balmer was to MS. Both companies stocks soared under each, largely because of their cost cutting / monetization of every aspect of product. However, in both cases, such maneuvers wound up alienating their core supporters and causing strategic brand identity issues. Eventually the board will have to replace TC (and most of the stagnant C-levels) and hopefully, like Microsoft, this will lead to a revitalization of Apple. The "XS Max"...really? Sounds like they've outsourced more than just manufacturing to China.
  - Bud 8y ago
    This is just silly. First, Steve Jobs would have cut these obsolete interfaces just as ruthlessly as Apple has done so under Tim Cook. Jobs had a long history of doing so. Second, this almost certainly wasn't even Tim Cook's call. I don't think Tim tells Jony Ive and the iPhone team which design decisions to make.
swingline-747 8y ago
I'm using the headphone jack right now connecting to wireless headphones with a failed Bluetooth section. The headphones will be sent back to the mfgr for warranty service.
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
All the current and past iPad models come with 3.5mm headphone jack. So I suppose Apple would just want you to buy an iPad as well! for your music production.
- cm2187 8y ago
  All the rumors I heard point to apple ditching the headphone jack in the coming model.
avcdsuia 8y ago
Will Apple ditch Lightning and switch to USB Type-C solve your problem?
- cptskippy 8y ago
  That would probably make it worse since USB-C audio is such a mess right now.
  - wilsonnb3 8y ago
    USB C audio isn’t a mess right now. We’ve had USB audio figured out for at least 10 years and USB C is no different.
    - WillPostForFood 8y ago
      According to Google’s official documentation: “Android 5.0 (API level 21) and above supports a subset of USB audio class 1.” This subset is more limited than the full class 1 specification, limiting audio to two channels of 24-bit PCM data with a frequency up to 48kHz. There’s no default support for high sample rate audio over USB out of the box. Individual smartphone manufacturers can implement full audio class specifications on top of Android’s default and many do. In fact, Google supports all three of the USB Audio Classes with the Pixel 2. However, this leads consumers not knowing what to expect from their handsets. You can find forums full of users struggling to understand why products don’t work with their specific smartphone, along with headache-inducing workarounds requiring specific apps and USB OTG cables. https://www.soundguys.com/android-usb-audio-class-3-0-18494/ https://www.soundguys.com/android-usb-audio-class-3-0-18494/
      - smolder 8y ago
        So then Android USB is a mess right now.
        WillPostForFood 8y ago
        I don't think it makes a great argument to say the USB Audio is great, it's just USB is a problem. They both need to work for USB Audio to work.
SSLy 8y ago
Have you checked the Samsung Galaxy S8/Note8 line? It seems that these phones include a customized sound framework for very low processing delays, AND they include jacks. Google for Soundcamp.
- fogetti 8y ago
  That looks really cool. Thanks for recommending it here!
- peapicker 8y ago
  The other problem with Android is due to sideloading and app hacking, the best pro level apps (which are expensive for apps) have mostly chosen to avoid Android rather than experience high levels of piracy the last time I researched it. (KORG Gadget for example doesn’t exist on Android)
delinka 8y ago
This is the rub. With the removal of the jack, Apple is telling us that their phones are not [music/audio] creators' tools. Apparently it's their desire that creators use, what, iPad? Their ever-disappointing line of laptops? The outdated Mac Pro? I just don't know. I do know that from the entire collection of screen sizes and hardware configuration options I'd like to choose my mode of creation, but Apple seems to think that telling me "iPhone is not a creation device" is Just Fine®.
- tazjin 8y ago
  > Apparently it's their desire that creators use, what, iPad? Their ever-disappointing line of laptops? The outdated Mac Pro? I just don't know. Or maybe ... none of the above? Content creators are probably a tiny fraction of Apple's user base at this point. I think they just don't care.
  - bdamm 8y ago
    It’s a mistake. We’re paying $1000+ for this tool that presents itself as a versatile information slinger, well I hope it can do more than Facebook, Instagram and Gmail. This is an amazing platform, completely damaged by its limited IO. Apple is moving away from its roots. Not good. Creators will go elsewhere, their desirable creations will become native elsewhere, and the sheep will follow.
    - nine_k 8y ago
      It's a bit late to say so. Apple has moved away from its accessible hardware roots when it has moved from Apple II to the original Macintosh. Just to remind, the original iPhone did not allow user-installable apps at all.
    - sandov 8y ago
      Why try to appeal to the creators when people are willing to pay thousands of dollars for pretty social media boxes?
  - mohdmasd 8y ago

village-idiot 8y ago

While that’s quite unfortunate for you, is this a use case that affects a lot of users? I imagine that people in your situation are far less common than those who think the bundled headphones are good enough.

exabrial 8y ago
Hardly an edge case. Consider the revenue generated by the Line6 Helix or Headrush and their many clones; it's a substantial revenue generator for these companies. Most live music musicians also purchase custom molded IEMs to protect their hearing and listen to a click track. Digital wireless audio simply does not work here. Even major brands like Sennheiser forgo digital transmission on their monitoring wireless packs because 5ms of latency is enough to induce combfiltering and throw a performer off.
- village-idiot 8y ago
  You seem to misunderstand my point. I get that wires are better for serious musicians. I doubt that the number of people depending on their iPhones for low latency audio work is dwarfed by the number of people doing latency insensitive things like listening to podcasts or iTunes. iPhones are primarily consumer products, so catering to consumer and not professional needs first makes sense. Heck, the stuff you mentioned appears to be purpose built audio equipment. How would that be affected by the iPhone ditching the headphone jack?
  - snovv_crash 8y ago
    The difference is that now you won't see DJs in front of crowds using Apple products. Apple has decided to trade measurable cost-cutting for non-measurable brand prestige, and in the next few years I expect Microsoft to launch a new mobile/desktop hybrid with an ad about how Apple is what your grandparents use, and cool young trendy people use Windows.
    - 1123581321 8y ago
      That wouldn’t be a new move for Microsoft. They have found some success with Surface and they’re expanding the line. However, they are making similar trade-offs to Apple where able. They may release a new, popular product, but it will just solidify the trends that people in this thread are complaining about.
    - guitarbill 8y ago
      > The difference is that now you won't see DJs in front of crowds using Apple products. OK, I'll call BS. iPhones and iPads are barely used for live performances. On the Macbook side, other than USB-A, what have they gotten rid of that DJs truly need for performances? We were using USB MIDI interfaces and USB audio interfaces long before the optical audio out went away. Meanwhile I know a few musicians who haven't touched a Microsoft OS in over 10 years (!). Yeah, Microsoft finally introduced an Audio API in Vista to take on CoreAudio, but that isn't new. Does anybody like Windows 10 given the choice? If anything, I'd expect Microsoft's infamous Update strategy to make anything Windows 10 a non-option for live gigs. About the only argument I can think of is that musicians with less budget might lean more towards a Windows-based DAW.
    - village-idiot 8y ago
      Thanks for downvoting and then ignoring my point. I’ll repeat since you seem to have reading issues: how many serious musicians were depending on iPhones for live production instead of laptops or purpose built hardware?
      - dang 8y ago
- UncleMeat 8y ago
  Sennheiser's revenue in 2017 was 600m. In 2017, Apple's revenue was 220b.
imtringued 8y ago
Well, at a minimum, it affects all people that want to play video games.

wilsonfiifi 8y ago

Or you could just use an iPad or iPad mini?

martin-adams 8y ago

I feel your pain. I can’t use an external mic with my iPhone on a gimbal because the dongle causes a gap meaning it won’t balance. These aren’t mainstream problems, but are problems nonetheless. I don’t mind using a dongle, as long as it works. In my case, there is no solution. That Why I still use my old Samsung on the gimbal.

panic 8y ago
Maybe these aren't mainstream problems, but they do reflect a change in Apple's brand. Apple used to position themselves as the brand for artists, musicians, and other creative types. They even used to hide an optical audio port in the MacBook Pro headphone jack -- talk about a niche feature! But around the same time iPhones lost their headphone jack, the laptops lost their optical port: https://appleinsider.com/articles/16/11/02/new-macbook-pro-drops-optical-audio-out-through-headphone-jack https://appleinsider.com/articles/16/11/02/new-macbook-pro-d.... I'm sure it's ultimately because Tim doesn't care as much as Steve about this stuff, but it does feel like something is being lost.
- ohyes 8y ago
  It was part of their branding, Apple stuff is for creative people, it lets them get shit done. Now it’s more of a status symbol, I’ve got an apple rather than a crappy generic android or think pad.
- _red 8y ago
  Tim Cook is to Apple as Steve Balmer was to MS. Both companies stocks soared under each, largely because of their cost cutting / monetization of every aspect of product. However, in both cases, such maneuvers wound up alienating their core supporters and causing strategic brand identity issues. Eventually the board will have to replace TC (and most of the stagnant C-levels) and hopefully, like Microsoft, this will lead to a revitalization of Apple. The "XS Max"...really? Sounds like they've outsourced more than just manufacturing to China.
- Bud 8y ago
  This is just silly. First, Steve Jobs would have cut these obsolete interfaces just as ruthlessly as Apple has done so under Tim Cook. Jobs had a long history of doing so. Second, this almost certainly wasn't even Tim Cook's call. I don't think Tim tells Jony Ive and the iPhone team which design decisions to make.

swingline-747 8y ago

I'm using the headphone jack right now connecting to wireless headphones with a failed Bluetooth section. The headphones will be sent back to the mfgr for warranty service.

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago

All the current and past iPad models come with 3.5mm headphone jack. So I suppose Apple would just want you to buy an iPad as well! for your music production.

cm2187 8y ago
All the rumors I heard point to apple ditching the headphone jack in the coming model.

avcdsuia 8y ago

Will Apple ditch Lightning and switch to USB Type-C solve your problem?

cptskippy 8y ago
That would probably make it worse since USB-C audio is such a mess right now.
- wilsonnb3 8y ago
  USB C audio isn’t a mess right now. We’ve had USB audio figured out for at least 10 years and USB C is no different.
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    According to Google’s official documentation: “Android 5.0 (API level 21) and above supports a subset of USB audio class 1.” This subset is more limited than the full class 1 specification, limiting audio to two channels of 24-bit PCM data with a frequency up to 48kHz. There’s no default support for high sample rate audio over USB out of the box. Individual smartphone manufacturers can implement full audio class specifications on top of Android’s default and many do. In fact, Google supports all three of the USB Audio Classes with the Pixel 2. However, this leads consumers not knowing what to expect from their handsets. You can find forums full of users struggling to understand why products don’t work with their specific smartphone, along with headache-inducing workarounds requiring specific apps and USB OTG cables. https://www.soundguys.com/android-usb-audio-class-3-0-18494/ https://www.soundguys.com/android-usb-audio-class-3-0-18494/
    - smolder 8y ago
      So then Android USB is a mess right now.
      - WillPostForFood 8y ago
        I don't think it makes a great argument to say the USB Audio is great, it's just USB is a problem. They both need to work for USB Audio to work.

SSLy 8y ago

Have you checked the Samsung Galaxy S8/Note8 line? It seems that these phones include a customized sound framework for very low processing delays, AND they include jacks. Google for Soundcamp.

fogetti 8y ago
That looks really cool. Thanks for recommending it here!
peapicker 8y ago
The other problem with Android is due to sideloading and app hacking, the best pro level apps (which are expensive for apps) have mostly chosen to avoid Android rather than experience high levels of piracy the last time I researched it. (KORG Gadget for example doesn’t exist on Android)

delinka 8y ago

This is the rub. With the removal of the jack, Apple is telling us that their phones are not [music/audio] creators' tools. Apparently it's their desire that creators use, what, iPad? Their ever-disappointing line of laptops? The outdated Mac Pro? I just don't know. I do know that from the entire collection of screen sizes and hardware configuration options I'd like to choose my mode of creation, but Apple seems to think that telling me "iPhone is not a creation device" is Just Fine®.

tazjin 8y ago
> Apparently it's their desire that creators use, what, iPad? Their ever-disappointing line of laptops? The outdated Mac Pro? I just don't know. Or maybe ... none of the above? Content creators are probably a tiny fraction of Apple's user base at this point. I think they just don't care.
- bdamm 8y ago
  It’s a mistake. We’re paying $1000+ for this tool that presents itself as a versatile information slinger, well I hope it can do more than Facebook, Instagram and Gmail. This is an amazing platform, completely damaged by its limited IO. Apple is moving away from its roots. Not good. Creators will go elsewhere, their desirable creations will become native elsewhere, and the sheep will follow.
  - nine_k 8y ago
    It's a bit late to say so. Apple has moved away from its accessible hardware roots when it has moved from Apple II to the original Macintosh. Just to remind, the original iPhone did not allow user-installable apps at all.
  - sandov 8y ago
    Why try to appeal to the creators when people are willing to pay thousands of dollars for pretty social media boxes?
- mohdmasd 8y ago