11 ms·

Google activated battery saving mode on multiple phones, then rolled it back

249 points by remir 8y ago

Rotdhizon 8y ago
Could they face repercussions over this? That is unsettling that they can remotely manipulate your phone without your permission.
- helthanatos 8y ago
  They can also delete media from your phone. Had a graphic video of that carnival ride breaking and killing someone and it was deleted...
  - vSanjo 8y ago
    Completely off-topic, so I apologise, but why did you have that video? That question is coming from a place of curiosity not judgement - I truly couldn't stomach having something like that on my phone, and would have no reason to share it with others or watch it again if I did.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - sebazzz 8y ago
    Was it uploaded to some cloud service?
  - 013a 8y ago
    Is this for real? Was it deleted specifically on Google Photos, with a local copy still available or possibly available if it hadn't already been cleared locally? Or was it a legitimate "reach into local storage and clear it"?
    - ehsankia 8y ago
      I'd be wary of believing some random anecdotal story with absolutely zero proof and very little detail.
      - laserBro13Fcali 8y ago
        anecdotal story with absolutely zero proof If you lack real control over your device, "absolutely zero proof" is the new normal, and everything that gets zeroed out of RAM is rendered anecdotal thusly.
    - helthanatos 8y ago
      It was only local.
- sandebert 8y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if both Google and Apple could do whatever they want with our phones remotely. It's just that they usually don't, so we never see it.
  - moetech 8y ago
    They can't if you're running Lineage OS.
    - spyridonas 8y ago
      I'm not that certain. From my understanding this works through Google play services that most people will install on other roms as well
    - ce4 8y ago
      And dont install GApps.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    On iOS, at least, software updates require the user to enter their passcode, to prevent a San Bernardino-type backdoor. Though, I believe there are some assets that can be updated without a full system update.
    - sandebert 8y ago
      I don't mean to be a tin foil hat, but I have to ask: How do you know? Do you work at Apple, with this exact thing? From my perspective there shouldn't be a problem for Apple to have the regular updates work as you describe. And also for them to have an alternative method they can use without any user intervention at all. (Which probably very seldom is used.)
- ehsankia 8y ago
  Did you even read the post? It was a bug... They do A/B testing and experiments all the time. What's up with hackernews and going full technopanic at the smallest most benign things. It's not like someone at Google hacked into your phone and turned battery saver off.
  - ardy42 8y ago
    >> That is unsettling that they can remotely manipulate your phone without your permission. > Did you even read the post? It was a bug... They do A/B testing and experiments all the time. What's up with hackernews and going full technopanic at the smallest most benign things. It's not like someone at Google hacked into your phone and turned battery saver off. I'm sure he did read the post. For Google to perform A/B experiments on a random person's phone, they'd have to remotely manipulate that person's phone, which means Google has control of it at all times. They shouldn't even have the capability to perform an A/B test. We're not talking about some webapp running on their servers.
    - cheeze 8y ago
      Yeah. Duh. Of course they do. Ever heard of remote lock down features? Don't use a Google phone if you don't want to be the product. That simple. Why would anybody trust Google and the Android ecosystem with security in general? Sent from my galaxy s9
    - kkarakk 8y ago
      obvious iphone user - google play services has full control of your phone. find your phone on android works because of this. if you don't trust google you CAN use the phone without google play services(you have to jump through some hoops like with everything privacy related)
      - sometimesijust 8y ago
        You don't even need to uninstall it. The permission to modify system settings etc can be set to not allowed in the Google Play Services app info page. So it isn't even surprising that the service can do what it did.
- photos_victim 8y ago
  They push new software to your phone constantly. They could just permanently enable low-power mode for everybody tomorrow if they wanted to, or change all your icons to Pop-Tarts.
- wvenable 8y ago
  Most people buy Google phones specifically because they want Google to remotely manipulate their phones as quickly as possible with the latest Candy-named software. It's an in-demand feature.
  - remir 8y ago
    There's a difference between fast-software updates and turning on/off certain features without the user's consent.
    - eh78ssxv2f 8y ago
      > turning on/off certain features without the user's consent. I think that in practice, that applies to only the privacy sensitive features. Would you be upset if suddenly they rolled out a feature that reduced battery consumption by 10%? This particular case was obviously a bug, but I suppose every software manufacturer is continuously doing A/B testing, and 99% of time the user would not even notice. I would be surprised if Google was not doing A/B testing, and did not have the whole framework for doing it.
      - remir 8y ago
        Would you be upset if suddenly they rolled out a feature that reduced battery consumption by 10%? If you're talking about battery saving mode, I would be upset if they activated the feature (turning it on) without my consent, yes. I don't have issues with Google pushing improvement to their code via OS updates.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        > Would you be upset if suddenly they rolled out a feature that reduced battery consumption by 10%? If they secretly installed it, of course I would be. It's not like this is the only way to deliver features...
      - pritambaral 8y ago
        > I would be surprised if Google was not doing A/B testing On live (not beta), unsuspecting users, without their consent?
- mikejb 8y ago
  The "without your permission" bit is where you're probably wrong. But I agree with your sentiment that it's unsettling.
mbrumlow 8y ago
This happened to me today! I was using my phone and then it went all weird with no haptic feedback when typing. I finally figured out that battery saver was on and disabled it... This really bothers me... I am starting to think we need a truly open source phone. That is hardware and software. like GNU/phone or something. We must have full control over our hardware and software! Viva La Gnu! (no clue what this actually means, but it seemed like the thing to say at this time).
- alexkavon 8y ago
  I’ll just leave this here: https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
  - gcb0 8y ago
    the irony that a product which top feature is literally "Does not run Google Android" serves their javascript from google cdn :) ...also the fact that they have boot up sound means that they are not focusing on user experience and needs, but on copying any and all features from the current phones :(
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      > they have boot up sound Where did you learn that? I 1) didn't think they did and 2) even if they did the bootloader should be user replaceable. I could be wrong though..
      - cbluth 8y ago
        He just didn't like the tune
      - gcb0 8y ago
        it was a category in their ring tones contest. they have three boot up sounds, which has absolutely no real use. fun fact, it was originally included in older phones as a marketing gimmick, a way to generate more revenue. someone at nokia or siemens had the idea to sell it to operators the same way as an Ad spot is sold. telco operators paid manufacturers to have their jingle there instead. and in markets without buyers, they put in the manufacturer jingle as a placeholder.
muks 8y ago
After my Samsung Galaxy S7 phone started having hardware issues, I looked to see if a phone running open source software was available, one that also could run the Android apps I currently use. I've had sucess with LineageOS 15.1 on a Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro (codename "whyred"). Unfortunately the phone's LTE bands don't support every country, but it works fine here in India. The phone hardware costs USD 210 and buys a lot of hardware: https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_redmi_note_5_pro-8893.php https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_redmi_note_5_pro-8893.php The phone comes with Xiaomi's Android fork called MIUI. It comes with the bootloader locked, and Xiaomi makes you wait for about 2 weeks to 2 months to be able to unlock the bootloader to install a different phone OS (called a custom ROM). Until then, one has to either put up with MIUI or leave the phone sitting on a shelf. https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/whyred/install https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/whyred/install Once you unlock the bootloader, you can install LineageOS on it which is fully open source stock Android with some minimal tweaks and extra privacy features. The current version for this phone is 15.1 which is based on Android Oreo. This reminds me of my old Google Nexus 5's phone OS, but it is far more tweakable. You can build the LineageOS ROM for your phone from source code: https://download.lineageos.org/whyred https://download.lineageos.org/whyred You can install a subset of Google Apps depending on what your preference is: https://wiki.lineageos.org/gapps.html https://wiki.lineageos.org/gapps.html https://github.com/opengapps/opengapps/wiki/Package-Comparison https://github.com/opengapps/opengapps/wiki/Package-Comparis... Or you can avoid Google Apps altogether by using microG instead: https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ After 2 weeks of using LineageOS, I am so impressed that I'm willing to shill for it^w^w^w describe about it here. For your country, if the "whyred" phone's LTE bands are not compatible, you should be able to find a similar phone that is.
- 9935c101ab17a66 8y ago
  Fully aware this might be a silly question, but why do they make you wait, and why does the time period vary so greatly?
  - muks 8y ago
    Waiting is inconvenient to buyers and to explain it away, Xiaomi provide some silly reasons such as saying they are trying to thwart sideloading of apps and custom ROMs by resellers, that does nefarious things like steal data... it's a silly excuse, and the wait time inconveniences buyers who want to unlock and install custom ROMs. Edit: I suspect Xiaomi do this to keep you using MIUI as long as possible because they make money from showing ads in various parts of the system, and also sync your data back to their cloud which probably is resold in some derived form to advertisers. In my opinion, MIUI sucks. MIUI vs. LineageOS proved it is the phone OS (software) which influences how much a person likes a phone, rather than the hardware. They've recently increased the wait time from 2 weeks to 2 months which had buyers complaining loudly on forums. So for their newest device (the Pocophone) they reduced the wait time to about 3 days. But I think the long wait times still exist for other phone models. The wait time depends on Xiaomi's mood-of-the-day. They keep fluctuating it.
ehsankia 8y ago
What a misleading, fake title. Honestly disappointing coming form HackerNews... The post quite literally says it's an experiment, accidentally enabled. A bug. Literally an A/B test, which they do all the time. The title makes it sound like they hacked in your phone. With that logic, any time your apps update or you get a notification, you're getting hacked.
- pritambaral 8y ago
  > What a misleading, fake title. The title is accurate. The Google account linked to says just as much. > The post quite literally says it's an experiment, accidentally enabled. A bug. And this can be accurate too, without being in conflict with any claim in the title. > Literally an A/B test, which they do all the time. On accounts enrolled into beta programs. Not on regular accounts. This one happened to phones with only regular accounts. > The title makes it sound like they hacked in your phone. The title makes it sound — at best — as if it was unexpected. Which it was. The title does not make it sound like they "hacked in your phone". Perhaps you're reading some outrage in the title that isn't there.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- sergiotapia 8y ago
  Nobody here is talking about intent. They're just talking about Google's ability to do it. Who cares if they "didn't mean it".
- remir 8y ago
  You're projecting and reading something that isn't there. How is the title "fake" and "misleading"? The title is: "Google remotely activated battery saving more on multiple people's phone today", which they did (saw it on my own 2XL). That's it. That's a fact. There's no mentions of Google hacking anybody's phone.
- 69132 8y ago
  Judging by your comment history, I would say that you might want to disclose who your employer is...
j45 8y ago
Oddly I turned on battery saving a few days ago and missed this. As much as I like my Pixel, simpler times of loading apps onto a Palm trek with a wire like syncing music onto an iPod comes to mind.
- j45 8y ago
  To help those who may not be able to read between the lines, or know a time before the app store: Externally initiated and unattended changes to my phone only impact the ability to trust and rely on my phone. This is a battery setting today, but might it be the last thing? Windows forced updates and reboots come to mind of where we could end up.
geostyx 8y ago
Oh, I wondered why that happened.
- nosjwshere 8y ago
  more snooping time
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ggm 8y ago
I don't see WHS the the big issue is. Yes my phone went to red battery low power mode. So what? What aspects of this alter contract between me and Google over automatically applied updstes? I gave can implicitly ages ago. If they involuntarily disabled battery saving and caused me to loose service or drain and reduce battery life i could see an issue. Truly, bemused at the hate. What did you think the t&c said when you enabled updates?
- King-Aaron 8y ago
  You've put into words exactly what I was thinking. From the thread: "Ok, but how is it that you have the power to control our phones this way? " Christ buddy. You have a phone thats made by Google. Google, the company that tracks you everywhere and rolls greenfield updates on all their other software. And then this person says they're going to turn 'allow modify system settings' off... What do these people seriously think Google is going to do?
  - some_account 8y ago
    I think people with a Google phone should just implant a chip in their arm, reporting to Google. It's basically the same thing, and you can view your body information on a Google dashboard and get Google advice on health care, along with a Google map to get there.
    - austhrow743 8y ago
      Many would and will when it's available.
      - Freak_NL 8y ago
        Except for the 20% of users who feel that Google is not to be trusted and implant an Apple iChip for the premium experience. In all seriousness, the percentage of people willing to forego using an Apple or Google smartphone (or any smartphone) to uphold at least some semblance of (digital) control over their life sometimes feels so low that it should be called a permillage.
omgtehlion 8y ago
That's why I still use windowsphone: dead platform == no updates ))
- jayd16 8y ago
  Also no security updates.
  - yoshamano 8y ago
    My Lumia 950 XL just pulled down a security update about 5 hours ago. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4459082/september112018kb4459082osbuild15254530 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4459082/september11... The GP's comment still stands though, it's a dead platform. Mainstream support ends on December 10, 2019, but lots of little things will die as we get closer to that date. Recently the Podcast app stopped letting me add new podcasts with some vague error about being unable to contact Bing. When Microsoft shut down their music service they killed Cortana's ability to identify music playing in the background. Notifications can be hit or miss depending on the app in question. I went through the same cycle with webOS. What finally did it in the end for me was the browser crashing on about every 6th website I would visit.
tempestn 8y ago
Clicked on this expecting it to be something about making sure people's phones didn't die while they were evacuated due to hurricanes or gas explosions. Now I'm curious how the response would have differed had that had been the case.
- comboy 8y ago
  Great point, I think the response would be very different. It's pretty clear that Google owns android phones with play store and can do as they please with them, you can install new apps using their website ffs, or erase all data on the phone using android/find.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  See also: Tesla extending the range of vehicles in natural disaster areas: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-irma-update-florida-extend-range-model-s-x-60-60d https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-...
okonomiyaki3000 8y ago
I think Apple remotely activated battery killing mode on mine. The battery was already in bad shape but since this morning it's been ticking down like a clock. It's much worse than yesterday. Anyone else? Am I just paranoid? Seems like an odd coincidence.
- Twisell 8y ago
  This is more like an App (or a JavaScript website on safari) has gone havoc and is draining a lot of power. Look for statistics in power setting to identify a potential culprit. If nothing suspicious an it keep doing after a reboot contact apple support, they have a recall program rolling for some models.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Apps and websites that drain power will be quickly killed by the OS. More likely, there's a system daemon that's running amok, which should usually be fixed by a reboot.
- icebraining 8y ago
  How can it not be a coincidence? Even if Apple did add a battery-killing mode, why would they purposefully wait until this Android bug to launch it?
  - okonomiyaki3000 8y ago
    I was thinking it was more like they just announced new iPhones and now they're giving people a reason to upgrade.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Oh, sorry, I didn't realize there were new iPhones just coming out.
mishurov 8y ago
The official Lineage OS doesn't have this problem.
lalos 8y ago
We need more transparency from companies, this time it was a 'bug' that was visible to the end user (hey! who turned on power saving?). Would Google go public if they also develop a 'bug' that is not visible easily by the user or if it was not discovered by anybody but them? Like a 'bug' that changes certs temporarily to intercept your encrypted traffic or uploads random data elsewhere, etc?
- hellosputnik 8y ago
  You can avoid all of this by using an iPhone. Apple's business model does not involve ad revenue or data collection. Your data is collected but is used purely to improve the iPhone. Your data is intentionally obfuscated for privacy. For an example of Apple's strict policy, check out this article on Apple Maps: https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-from-the-ground-up/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-f...
  - benschulz 8y ago
    From "Guardians of Truth"[0]: > This is why I've always insisted, for example, that if you're going to start talking about "AI ethics", you had better be talking about how you are going to improve on the current situation using AI, rather than just keeping various things from going wrong. Once you adopt criteria of mere comparison, you start losing track of your ideals—lose sight of wrong and right, and start seeing simply "different" and "same". [0]: https://www.lesswrong.com/s/M3TJ2fTCzoQq66NBJ/p/etBrzxdfNop3DqJvA https://www.lesswrong.com/s/M3TJ2fTCzoQq66NBJ/p/etBrzxdfNop3...
  - huhtenberg 8y ago
    > Your data is collected but is used purely to improve the iPhone. Your data is intentionally obfuscated for privacy. As per Apple. I see no reason to trust Apple any more I trust Google. Especially in the context of Snowden's disclosures of tech giants collusion under the Prism program. What they say is only remotely related to what they actually do.
  - babuskov 8y ago
    > You can avoid all of this by using an iPhone. Not really. https://www.apple.com/lae/iphone-battery-and-performance/ https://www.apple.com/lae/iphone-battery-and-performance/ > Apple's business model does not involve ad revenue or data collection. I fail to see how ad revenue and data collection has anything to do with battery saving mode.
mvpu 8y ago
If a system setting is changed (in this case, power-saving mode = on) _without_ associated user trigger (UI action), then the system should issue a push notification and prompt for confirmation. That's the right thing to do - for all apps no matter who made them.
propman 8y ago
Off topic, but Google is getting killed this last week. I was pretty ticked at them ignoring Senator Warner’s request the other day and I think the hearings are usually a public circus. Google is just the most powerful lobbyist in Washington. They face no repercussions for anything. In 2016, Trump (probably his admin he didn’t know anything) wanted to appoint the most badass anti monopoly czar in America. Probably the most momentous position in recent memory in terms of the future of society. Sounds like I’m exaggerating, but free speech, monopoly, hate speech, income inequality, spying, tracking everything, face recognition, Orwellian themes, and potential usurpation of nation states in favor of data harvesting multinationals was on the line. Google used all their lobbying capital to shut it down. Threatened to nuke every bipartisan bill and every conservative judicial appointment with the congressmen in their pockets. The WSJ had a great expose about this. In the end the one man who scared the hell out of even Google and was poised to take down uber monopolies like att&t, Disney etc. was passed over for a pushover.
jayd16 8y ago
I'm taken aback by how many, even in this tech forum, seem surprised to learn that automatic os updates means settings can be updated automatically. Bugs are bad and all but I don't understand the "how could Google do this?!" questions. Am I missing something?
- saagarjha 8y ago
  OS updates should not update your settings. They can update system frameworks, but they shouldn't just randomly change the preferences you have set.
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 8y ago
    OP meant why tech savvy people are surprised the Google has the possibility to do such things even though it's obvious they have full control over your operating system.
  - TorKlingberg 8y ago
    It is a bug that can easily happen by mistake, especially if the update changes how preferences are stored in any way.
- enriquto 8y ago
  This happens in ubuntu linux actually. Every now and then, an update changes my configuration of systemd without asking.
  - B-Con 8y ago
    Thus is the nature of updating settings. Easy mistakes to make include: * Changing a field's default value (is that even a mistake? users might perceive it that way. Also, is there a difference between a field set to the default value and has never been changed vs a field explicitly set to the default value? Should you change it in the latter case? Did you even track the latter case?). * Overwriting a field's non-default value and setting it back to default. * Migrating a field and mapping the non-default value to the wrong non-default value. * Migrating a tuple of fields to another tuple of fields and getting the map wrong for an edge case subset of the input values (bonus points if that subset was thought to be an impossible state to get into). etc... The best way to avoid settings updates it to throw it all on the user. eg, Arch Linux just takes the approach: if, you update a file in /etc, the new file is just created with a special file extension and merging the new and current file is left to the user. You don't get nearly as many surprise updates, but... you spend time merging config files, which few people are willing to do.
l1feh4ck 8y ago
Google is so deep-rooted in our life and they are doing it so elegantly without making much noise and the majority of people are least bothered about this. I want Google out of my phone, and I need it now. What am I going to do about it? Nothing because Google is so convenient.
Animats 8y ago
You can't turn off Google Play Services any more. There's no "Disable" button. I use F-Droid apps for everything and have all the Google stuff turned off, but can't easily get rid of Google Play Services.
- snaky 8y ago
  The only way to turn off Play Services is not installing them at all.
jaclaz 8y ago
Set aside for a moment this specific issue (which all in all did not create particular damages), I wonder what is the actual authorization/implementation procedure in a firm like Google to actually push these "potentially destructive" updates (or tests or whatever you call them). I mean, I imagine that there is a control room where people receive an order by the president, together with a launch code, then an officer in command retrieves the other half of the launch code from a safe he opens with a key he keeps at all times on a chain around his neck, and then two other officers, each one with at least 5 years of service and the grade of captain enter the code and press simultaneously two buttons on two consoles rather far apart. But I fear that the procedure is much simpler and - theoretically - at the reach of a disgruntled or "gone mad" employee, hired only a couple months before...
Canada 8y ago
We need silent updates to be disabled by default until the user opts in, and we need 7 figure bug bounties on any method of bypassing that. We also need a certificate transparency type system for updates so users know whether how unique the update they're being asked to accept is. Otherwise this functionality will be abused for wiretapping purposes.
- UncleMeat 8y ago
  Requiring users to manually update is a security nightmare. There is no getting around this. Automatic updates are a tremendous win for security.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sureaboutthis 8y ago
A lot of people on reddit seemed to ignore the part where it was clearly stated the activation was done by mistake and corrected.
bubblethink 8y ago
A plug for something that you may find useful: https://github.com/dan-v/rattlesnakeos-stack https://github.com/dan-v/rattlesnakeos-stack Backstory: It was created after the death of copperheadOS to fill in the gap. It builds stock AOSP (without any google play blobs), and signs it with your own keys for verified boot. This project is still pretty new, and has some limitations. It builds on aws, whereas I would like to do local builds. Still, a pretty neat and useful project.
Markoff 8y ago
no gapps in my phone, so no need to worry about intrusions from Google

249 points by remir 8y ago

Could they face repercussions over this? That is unsettling that they can remotely manipulate your phone without your permission.

helthanatos 8y ago
They can also delete media from your phone. Had a graphic video of that carnival ride breaking and killing someone and it was deleted...
- vSanjo 8y ago
  Completely off-topic, so I apologise, but why did you have that video? That question is coming from a place of curiosity not judgement - I truly couldn't stomach having something like that on my phone, and would have no reason to share it with others or watch it again if I did.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- sebazzz 8y ago
  Was it uploaded to some cloud service?
- 013a 8y ago
  Is this for real? Was it deleted specifically on Google Photos, with a local copy still available or possibly available if it hadn't already been cleared locally? Or was it a legitimate "reach into local storage and clear it"?
  - ehsankia 8y ago
    I'd be wary of believing some random anecdotal story with absolutely zero proof and very little detail.
    - laserBro13Fcali 8y ago
      anecdotal story with absolutely zero proof If you lack real control over your device, "absolutely zero proof" is the new normal, and everything that gets zeroed out of RAM is rendered anecdotal thusly.
  - helthanatos 8y ago
    It was only local.
sandebert 8y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if both Google and Apple could do whatever they want with our phones remotely. It's just that they usually don't, so we never see it.
- moetech 8y ago
  They can't if you're running Lineage OS.
  - spyridonas 8y ago
    I'm not that certain. From my understanding this works through Google play services that most people will install on other roms as well
  - ce4 8y ago
    And dont install GApps.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  On iOS, at least, software updates require the user to enter their passcode, to prevent a San Bernardino-type backdoor. Though, I believe there are some assets that can be updated without a full system update.
  - sandebert 8y ago
    I don't mean to be a tin foil hat, but I have to ask: How do you know? Do you work at Apple, with this exact thing? From my perspective there shouldn't be a problem for Apple to have the regular updates work as you describe. And also for them to have an alternative method they can use without any user intervention at all. (Which probably very seldom is used.)
ehsankia 8y ago
Did you even read the post? It was a bug... They do A/B testing and experiments all the time. What's up with hackernews and going full technopanic at the smallest most benign things. It's not like someone at Google hacked into your phone and turned battery saver off.
- ardy42 8y ago
  >> That is unsettling that they can remotely manipulate your phone without your permission. > Did you even read the post? It was a bug... They do A/B testing and experiments all the time. What's up with hackernews and going full technopanic at the smallest most benign things. It's not like someone at Google hacked into your phone and turned battery saver off. I'm sure he did read the post. For Google to perform A/B experiments on a random person's phone, they'd have to remotely manipulate that person's phone, which means Google has control of it at all times. They shouldn't even have the capability to perform an A/B test. We're not talking about some webapp running on their servers.
  - cheeze 8y ago
    Yeah. Duh. Of course they do. Ever heard of remote lock down features? Don't use a Google phone if you don't want to be the product. That simple. Why would anybody trust Google and the Android ecosystem with security in general? Sent from my galaxy s9
  - kkarakk 8y ago
    obvious iphone user - google play services has full control of your phone. find your phone on android works because of this. if you don't trust google you CAN use the phone without google play services(you have to jump through some hoops like with everything privacy related)
    - sometimesijust 8y ago
      You don't even need to uninstall it. The permission to modify system settings etc can be set to not allowed in the Google Play Services app info page. So it isn't even surprising that the service can do what it did.
photos_victim 8y ago
They push new software to your phone constantly. They could just permanently enable low-power mode for everybody tomorrow if they wanted to, or change all your icons to Pop-Tarts.
wvenable 8y ago
Most people buy Google phones specifically because they want Google to remotely manipulate their phones as quickly as possible with the latest Candy-named software. It's an in-demand feature.
- remir 8y ago
  There's a difference between fast-software updates and turning on/off certain features without the user's consent.
  - eh78ssxv2f 8y ago
    > turning on/off certain features without the user's consent. I think that in practice, that applies to only the privacy sensitive features. Would you be upset if suddenly they rolled out a feature that reduced battery consumption by 10%? This particular case was obviously a bug, but I suppose every software manufacturer is continuously doing A/B testing, and 99% of time the user would not even notice. I would be surprised if Google was not doing A/B testing, and did not have the whole framework for doing it.
    - remir 8y ago
      Would you be upset if suddenly they rolled out a feature that reduced battery consumption by 10%? If you're talking about battery saving mode, I would be upset if they activated the feature (turning it on) without my consent, yes. I don't have issues with Google pushing improvement to their code via OS updates.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      > Would you be upset if suddenly they rolled out a feature that reduced battery consumption by 10%? If they secretly installed it, of course I would be. It's not like this is the only way to deliver features...
    - pritambaral 8y ago
      > I would be surprised if Google was not doing A/B testing On live (not beta), unsuspecting users, without their consent?
mikejb 8y ago
The "without your permission" bit is where you're probably wrong. But I agree with your sentiment that it's unsettling.

mbrumlow 8y ago

This happened to me today! I was using my phone and then it went all weird with no haptic feedback when typing. I finally figured out that battery saver was on and disabled it... This really bothers me... I am starting to think we need a truly open source phone. That is hardware and software. like GNU/phone or something. We must have full control over our hardware and software! Viva La Gnu! (no clue what this actually means, but it seemed like the thing to say at this time).

alexkavon 8y ago
I’ll just leave this here: https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
- gcb0 8y ago
  the irony that a product which top feature is literally "Does not run Google Android" serves their javascript from google cdn :) ...also the fact that they have boot up sound means that they are not focusing on user experience and needs, but on copying any and all features from the current phones :(
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    > they have boot up sound Where did you learn that? I 1) didn't think they did and 2) even if they did the bootloader should be user replaceable. I could be wrong though..
    - cbluth 8y ago
      He just didn't like the tune
    - gcb0 8y ago
      it was a category in their ring tones contest. they have three boot up sounds, which has absolutely no real use. fun fact, it was originally included in older phones as a marketing gimmick, a way to generate more revenue. someone at nokia or siemens had the idea to sell it to operators the same way as an Ad spot is sold. telco operators paid manufacturers to have their jingle there instead. and in markets without buyers, they put in the manufacturer jingle as a placeholder.

muks 8y ago

After my Samsung Galaxy S7 phone started having hardware issues, I looked to see if a phone running open source software was available, one that also could run the Android apps I currently use. I've had sucess with LineageOS 15.1 on a Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro (codename "whyred"). Unfortunately the phone's LTE bands don't support every country, but it works fine here in India. The phone hardware costs USD 210 and buys a lot of hardware: https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_redmi_note_5_pro-8893.php https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_redmi_note_5_pro-8893.php The phone comes with Xiaomi's Android fork called MIUI. It comes with the bootloader locked, and Xiaomi makes you wait for about 2 weeks to 2 months to be able to unlock the bootloader to install a different phone OS (called a custom ROM). Until then, one has to either put up with MIUI or leave the phone sitting on a shelf. https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/whyred/install https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/whyred/install Once you unlock the bootloader, you can install LineageOS on it which is fully open source stock Android with some minimal tweaks and extra privacy features. The current version for this phone is 15.1 which is based on Android Oreo. This reminds me of my old Google Nexus 5's phone OS, but it is far more tweakable. You can build the LineageOS ROM for your phone from source code: https://download.lineageos.org/whyred https://download.lineageos.org/whyred You can install a subset of Google Apps depending on what your preference is: https://wiki.lineageos.org/gapps.html https://wiki.lineageos.org/gapps.html https://github.com/opengapps/opengapps/wiki/Package-Comparison https://github.com/opengapps/opengapps/wiki/Package-Comparis... Or you can avoid Google Apps altogether by using microG instead: https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ After 2 weeks of using LineageOS, I am so impressed that I'm willing to shill for it^w^w^w describe about it here. For your country, if the "whyred" phone's LTE bands are not compatible, you should be able to find a similar phone that is.

9935c101ab17a66 8y ago
Fully aware this might be a silly question, but why do they make you wait, and why does the time period vary so greatly?
- muks 8y ago
  Waiting is inconvenient to buyers and to explain it away, Xiaomi provide some silly reasons such as saying they are trying to thwart sideloading of apps and custom ROMs by resellers, that does nefarious things like steal data... it's a silly excuse, and the wait time inconveniences buyers who want to unlock and install custom ROMs. Edit: I suspect Xiaomi do this to keep you using MIUI as long as possible because they make money from showing ads in various parts of the system, and also sync your data back to their cloud which probably is resold in some derived form to advertisers. In my opinion, MIUI sucks. MIUI vs. LineageOS proved it is the phone OS (software) which influences how much a person likes a phone, rather than the hardware. They've recently increased the wait time from 2 weeks to 2 months which had buyers complaining loudly on forums. So for their newest device (the Pocophone) they reduced the wait time to about 3 days. But I think the long wait times still exist for other phone models. The wait time depends on Xiaomi's mood-of-the-day. They keep fluctuating it.

ehsankia 8y ago

What a misleading, fake title. Honestly disappointing coming form HackerNews... The post quite literally says it's an experiment, accidentally enabled. A bug. Literally an A/B test, which they do all the time. The title makes it sound like they hacked in your phone. With that logic, any time your apps update or you get a notification, you're getting hacked.

pritambaral 8y ago
> What a misleading, fake title. The title is accurate. The Google account linked to says just as much. > The post quite literally says it's an experiment, accidentally enabled. A bug. And this can be accurate too, without being in conflict with any claim in the title. > Literally an A/B test, which they do all the time. On accounts enrolled into beta programs. Not on regular accounts. This one happened to phones with only regular accounts. > The title makes it sound like they hacked in your phone. The title makes it sound — at best — as if it was unexpected. Which it was. The title does not make it sound like they "hacked in your phone". Perhaps you're reading some outrage in the title that isn't there.
deleted 8y ago
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sergiotapia 8y ago
Nobody here is talking about intent. They're just talking about Google's ability to do it. Who cares if they "didn't mean it".
remir 8y ago
You're projecting and reading something that isn't there. How is the title "fake" and "misleading"? The title is: "Google remotely activated battery saving more on multiple people's phone today", which they did (saw it on my own 2XL). That's it. That's a fact. There's no mentions of Google hacking anybody's phone.
69132 8y ago
Judging by your comment history, I would say that you might want to disclose who your employer is...

j45 8y ago

Oddly I turned on battery saving a few days ago and missed this. As much as I like my Pixel, simpler times of loading apps onto a Palm trek with a wire like syncing music onto an iPod comes to mind.

j45 8y ago
To help those who may not be able to read between the lines, or know a time before the app store: Externally initiated and unattended changes to my phone only impact the ability to trust and rely on my phone. This is a battery setting today, but might it be the last thing? Windows forced updates and reboots come to mind of where we could end up.

geostyx 8y ago

Oh, I wondered why that happened.

nosjwshere 8y ago
more snooping time

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ggm 8y ago

I don't see WHS the the big issue is. Yes my phone went to red battery low power mode. So what? What aspects of this alter contract between me and Google over automatically applied updstes? I gave can implicitly ages ago. If they involuntarily disabled battery saving and caused me to loose service or drain and reduce battery life i could see an issue. Truly, bemused at the hate. What did you think the t&c said when you enabled updates?

King-Aaron 8y ago
You've put into words exactly what I was thinking. From the thread: "Ok, but how is it that you have the power to control our phones this way? " Christ buddy. You have a phone thats made by Google. Google, the company that tracks you everywhere and rolls greenfield updates on all their other software. And then this person says they're going to turn 'allow modify system settings' off... What do these people seriously think Google is going to do?
- some_account 8y ago
  I think people with a Google phone should just implant a chip in their arm, reporting to Google. It's basically the same thing, and you can view your body information on a Google dashboard and get Google advice on health care, along with a Google map to get there.
  - austhrow743 8y ago
    Many would and will when it's available.
    - Freak_NL 8y ago
      Except for the 20% of users who feel that Google is not to be trusted and implant an Apple iChip for the premium experience. In all seriousness, the percentage of people willing to forego using an Apple or Google smartphone (or any smartphone) to uphold at least some semblance of (digital) control over their life sometimes feels so low that it should be called a permillage.

omgtehlion 8y ago

That's why I still use windowsphone: dead platform == no updates ))

jayd16 8y ago
Also no security updates.
- yoshamano 8y ago
  My Lumia 950 XL just pulled down a security update about 5 hours ago. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4459082/september112018kb4459082osbuild15254530 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4459082/september11... The GP's comment still stands though, it's a dead platform. Mainstream support ends on December 10, 2019, but lots of little things will die as we get closer to that date. Recently the Podcast app stopped letting me add new podcasts with some vague error about being unable to contact Bing. When Microsoft shut down their music service they killed Cortana's ability to identify music playing in the background. Notifications can be hit or miss depending on the app in question. I went through the same cycle with webOS. What finally did it in the end for me was the browser crashing on about every 6th website I would visit.

tempestn 8y ago

Clicked on this expecting it to be something about making sure people's phones didn't die while they were evacuated due to hurricanes or gas explosions. Now I'm curious how the response would have differed had that had been the case.

comboy 8y ago
Great point, I think the response would be very different. It's pretty clear that Google owns android phones with play store and can do as they please with them, you can install new apps using their website ffs, or erase all data on the phone using android/find.
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
See also: Tesla extending the range of vehicles in natural disaster areas: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-irma-update-florida-extend-range-model-s-x-60-60d https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-...

okonomiyaki3000 8y ago

I think Apple remotely activated battery killing mode on mine. The battery was already in bad shape but since this morning it's been ticking down like a clock. It's much worse than yesterday. Anyone else? Am I just paranoid? Seems like an odd coincidence.

Twisell 8y ago
This is more like an App (or a JavaScript website on safari) has gone havoc and is draining a lot of power. Look for statistics in power setting to identify a potential culprit. If nothing suspicious an it keep doing after a reboot contact apple support, they have a recall program rolling for some models.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Apps and websites that drain power will be quickly killed by the OS. More likely, there's a system daemon that's running amok, which should usually be fixed by a reboot.
icebraining 8y ago
How can it not be a coincidence? Even if Apple did add a battery-killing mode, why would they purposefully wait until this Android bug to launch it?
- okonomiyaki3000 8y ago
  I was thinking it was more like they just announced new iPhones and now they're giving people a reason to upgrade.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Oh, sorry, I didn't realize there were new iPhones just coming out.

mishurov 8y ago

The official Lineage OS doesn't have this problem.

lalos 8y ago

We need more transparency from companies, this time it was a 'bug' that was visible to the end user (hey! who turned on power saving?). Would Google go public if they also develop a 'bug' that is not visible easily by the user or if it was not discovered by anybody but them? Like a 'bug' that changes certs temporarily to intercept your encrypted traffic or uploads random data elsewhere, etc?

hellosputnik 8y ago
You can avoid all of this by using an iPhone. Apple's business model does not involve ad revenue or data collection. Your data is collected but is used purely to improve the iPhone. Your data is intentionally obfuscated for privacy. For an example of Apple's strict policy, check out this article on Apple Maps: https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-from-the-ground-up/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-f...
- benschulz 8y ago
  From "Guardians of Truth"[0]: > This is why I've always insisted, for example, that if you're going to start talking about "AI ethics", you had better be talking about how you are going to improve on the current situation using AI, rather than just keeping various things from going wrong. Once you adopt criteria of mere comparison, you start losing track of your ideals—lose sight of wrong and right, and start seeing simply "different" and "same". [0]: https://www.lesswrong.com/s/M3TJ2fTCzoQq66NBJ/p/etBrzxdfNop3DqJvA https://www.lesswrong.com/s/M3TJ2fTCzoQq66NBJ/p/etBrzxdfNop3...
- huhtenberg 8y ago
  > Your data is collected but is used purely to improve the iPhone. Your data is intentionally obfuscated for privacy. As per Apple. I see no reason to trust Apple any more I trust Google. Especially in the context of Snowden's disclosures of tech giants collusion under the Prism program. What they say is only remotely related to what they actually do.
- babuskov 8y ago
  > You can avoid all of this by using an iPhone. Not really. https://www.apple.com/lae/iphone-battery-and-performance/ https://www.apple.com/lae/iphone-battery-and-performance/ > Apple's business model does not involve ad revenue or data collection. I fail to see how ad revenue and data collection has anything to do with battery saving mode.

mvpu 8y ago

If a system setting is changed (in this case, power-saving mode = on) _without_ associated user trigger (UI action), then the system should issue a push notification and prompt for confirmation. That's the right thing to do - for all apps no matter who made them.

propman 8y ago

Off topic, but Google is getting killed this last week. I was pretty ticked at them ignoring Senator Warner’s request the other day and I think the hearings are usually a public circus. Google is just the most powerful lobbyist in Washington. They face no repercussions for anything. In 2016, Trump (probably his admin he didn’t know anything) wanted to appoint the most badass anti monopoly czar in America. Probably the most momentous position in recent memory in terms of the future of society. Sounds like I’m exaggerating, but free speech, monopoly, hate speech, income inequality, spying, tracking everything, face recognition, Orwellian themes, and potential usurpation of nation states in favor of data harvesting multinationals was on the line. Google used all their lobbying capital to shut it down. Threatened to nuke every bipartisan bill and every conservative judicial appointment with the congressmen in their pockets. The WSJ had a great expose about this. In the end the one man who scared the hell out of even Google and was poised to take down uber monopolies like att&t, Disney etc. was passed over for a pushover.

jayd16 8y ago

I'm taken aback by how many, even in this tech forum, seem surprised to learn that automatic os updates means settings can be updated automatically. Bugs are bad and all but I don't understand the "how could Google do this?!" questions. Am I missing something?

saagarjha 8y ago
OS updates should not update your settings. They can update system frameworks, but they shouldn't just randomly change the preferences you have set.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 8y ago
  OP meant why tech savvy people are surprised the Google has the possibility to do such things even though it's obvious they have full control over your operating system.
- TorKlingberg 8y ago
  It is a bug that can easily happen by mistake, especially if the update changes how preferences are stored in any way.
enriquto 8y ago
This happens in ubuntu linux actually. Every now and then, an update changes my configuration of systemd without asking.
- B-Con 8y ago
  Thus is the nature of updating settings. Easy mistakes to make include: * Changing a field's default value (is that even a mistake? users might perceive it that way. Also, is there a difference between a field set to the default value and has never been changed vs a field explicitly set to the default value? Should you change it in the latter case? Did you even track the latter case?). * Overwriting a field's non-default value and setting it back to default. * Migrating a field and mapping the non-default value to the wrong non-default value. * Migrating a tuple of fields to another tuple of fields and getting the map wrong for an edge case subset of the input values (bonus points if that subset was thought to be an impossible state to get into). etc... The best way to avoid settings updates it to throw it all on the user. eg, Arch Linux just takes the approach: if, you update a file in /etc, the new file is just created with a special file extension and merging the new and current file is left to the user. You don't get nearly as many surprise updates, but... you spend time merging config files, which few people are willing to do.

l1feh4ck 8y ago

Google is so deep-rooted in our life and they are doing it so elegantly without making much noise and the majority of people are least bothered about this. I want Google out of my phone, and I need it now. What am I going to do about it? Nothing because Google is so convenient.

Animats 8y ago

You can't turn off Google Play Services any more. There's no "Disable" button. I use F-Droid apps for everything and have all the Google stuff turned off, but can't easily get rid of Google Play Services.

snaky 8y ago
The only way to turn off Play Services is not installing them at all.

jaclaz 8y ago

Set aside for a moment this specific issue (which all in all did not create particular damages), I wonder what is the actual authorization/implementation procedure in a firm like Google to actually push these "potentially destructive" updates (or tests or whatever you call them). I mean, I imagine that there is a control room where people receive an order by the president, together with a launch code, then an officer in command retrieves the other half of the launch code from a safe he opens with a key he keeps at all times on a chain around his neck, and then two other officers, each one with at least 5 years of service and the grade of captain enter the code and press simultaneously two buttons on two consoles rather far apart. But I fear that the procedure is much simpler and - theoretically - at the reach of a disgruntled or "gone mad" employee, hired only a couple months before...

Canada 8y ago

We need silent updates to be disabled by default until the user opts in, and we need 7 figure bug bounties on any method of bypassing that. We also need a certificate transparency type system for updates so users know whether how unique the update they're being asked to accept is. Otherwise this functionality will be abused for wiretapping purposes.

UncleMeat 8y ago
Requiring users to manually update is a security nightmare. There is no getting around this. Automatic updates are a tremendous win for security.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

sureaboutthis 8y ago

A lot of people on reddit seemed to ignore the part where it was clearly stated the activation was done by mistake and corrected.

bubblethink 8y ago

A plug for something that you may find useful: https://github.com/dan-v/rattlesnakeos-stack https://github.com/dan-v/rattlesnakeos-stack Backstory: It was created after the death of copperheadOS to fill in the gap. It builds stock AOSP (without any google play blobs), and signs it with your own keys for verified boot. This project is still pretty new, and has some limitations. It builds on aws, whereas I would like to do local builds. Still, a pretty neat and useful project.

Markoff 8y ago

no gapps in my phone, so no need to worry about intrusions from Google