7 ms·

I'd argue that what Google is doing is in the US's interests. As I see it the choice is to either do what Google is doing, which means being involved, staying

• pcwalton 8y ago
  > it will just leave the door open for new Chinese tech giants. Baidu already exists.
  • mc32 8y ago
    I think the thought is that Google is part of American “soft power” and staying out means that soft power influence/projection effectively is neutralized.
• craftyguy 8y ago
  The world is much larger than just the US, and the interests of one country are rarely the interests of all citizens of the world (e.g. human rights).
  • yourbandsucks 8y ago
    Avoiding conflict or cold war is also in the interest of all citizens of the world. Some of the rhetoric I'm seeing fly around on the topic sounds a little overheated to me, compared to how bad things could get.
    • craftyguy 8y ago
      You know what's overheated? Suggesting that the only way enforce human rights is through armed conflict or cold war.
      • dpc59 8y ago
        There's not really other ways to do politics other than to project soft power (cold war) or hard power (armed conflict)
        • geezerjay 8y ago
          Refusing to do business with totalitarian regimes dedicated to violate their citizen's human rights is in itself a way to leverage soft power.
          • true_religion 8y ago
            That is a cold war if you do it at the national level. It is basically a trade embargo. When you refuse to do business, and "encourage" your allies to do the same, then the other side begins to think that perhaps it may just be easier to take your resources by force.
        • DoctorOetker 8y ago
          Well, there's always the bizarre weirdo's who believe we can design provably fair and cryptographically secure decentralized cosmopolitan egalitarian societies... but no one should pay these people any attention right?
      • snaky 8y ago
        Suggesting that the only way enforce human rights is through armed conflict or cold war is the way to win elections in the United States.
  • ElBarto 8y ago
    You won't help human rights in China by refusing to work there. And it's not clear how working there will influence human rights either way. Based on that, better to be in than out.
    • 394549 8y ago
      > You won't help human rights in China by refusing to work there. Maybe so, but you definitely can hurt human rights by working there. I would say providing censored search results (and putting an American stamp of approval on them) is hurting human rights there. Furthermore, giving an authoritarian government economic leverage over an American search engine company can hurt human rights here.
      • ElBarto 8y ago
        This is China. Search results are censored and people are fully aware of that. This is a storm in a tea cup, but it shows that the US feel increasingly insecure when it comes to China.
        • WalterSear 8y ago
          Aware or not, they are still being manipulated. 25 years after Tiananmen, most Chinese university students have never heard of it https://www.vox.com/2014/6/3/5775918/25-years-after-tiananmen-most-chinese-univeristy-students-have-never https://www.vox.com/2014/6/3/5775918/25-years-after-tiananme...
          • jessaustin 8y ago
            Lots of stuff gets swept under the rug. I received 13 years of USA primary and secondary education, and I've traveled in the Philippines. Despite that, I didn't learn until earlier this week that USA soldiers had killed hundreds of thousands of Filipinos at the turn of the century.
            • WalterSear 8y ago
• nafizh 8y ago
  Can you expand on how staying relevant in China (acquiesce to the demands of the Chines Govt.) helps the human rights concerns long time? And why should a private company act on behalf of the interests of the US Govt.?
  • ElBarto 8y ago
    Whether Google works with the Chinese government or not will have absolutely no impact on human rights. The only question is whether Google and American interests want to be in the room or left outside in the cold. It's always better to be involved and informed.
    • geezerjay 8y ago
      > Whether Google works with the Chinese government or not will have absolutely no impact on human rights. That assertion only makes sense if you assume that helping perpetuate human rights abuses has no impact on human rights abuses.
      • ElBarto 8y ago
        No, the point is that if Google does not work with them then they'll do exactly the same without Google.
        • tern 8y ago
          If there is an argument to be made, it's that without Google's help, they would end up with a worse search product. This kind of "resign in protest" gesture is one that made a bit more sense in the early days of globalization when the US was clearly dominant.
        • ionised 8y ago
          That's a lazy argument and one I personally find morally repugnant. It's no different than the justification some use when we talk about the ethical ramifications of selling arms to middle eastern states in conflict. "They are going to buy their arms from someone, it may as well be us!"
• skybrian 8y ago
  This "influence" seems rather abstract. What does it really amount to? Any search engine in China has to operate under heavy restrictions. Spending a lot of political capital to do the same thing as the other search engines in China doesn't seem like a good trade, politically. It makes a bit more sense as a way to make money, except that this doesn't seem like an area where China will let a foreign company win.
• droopyEyelids 8y ago
  It really depends on what you think of as "The USA" Google is building infrastructure for the powerful to control the masses' ability to communicate ideas. Do you think the USA is "The People"? Then this is bad for them, because one of our most powerful companies is beginning to develop tools of direct social control. Do you think the USA is the government & associated bureaucrats? Then this is good, because this technology will allow them to suppress threats to their authority.
  • tripplethrendo 8y ago
    This is absolutely true. Why is it getting down-voted?
    • awakeasleep 8y ago
      The ideas aren't framed in a way that follows the standard thread of discourse
  • solotronics 8y ago
    In-Q-Tel / Alphabet / CIA / Google https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/how-the-cia-made-google-e836451a959e https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/how-the-cia-made-goo...
• yourbandsucks 8y ago
  There's something to be said for increased contact between the cultures, as well. Xi's trajectory is making me nervous right now, but then look at our current leadership. And their government DID lift a few hundred million people out of poverty over the last 30 years. Maybe we can work with that.
• mancerayder 8y ago
  As I see it the choice is to either do what Google is doing It's more than just a situation of, "Someone else will do it eventually, so I might as well" and then as you put it, make a few bucks along the way and stay relevant and so forth. The difference here is that Google is offering elite levels of brainpower/research and resources. Not everyone can do that. And I think you meant realpolitik, the concept of viewing the world in terms of true/material interests.
  • bdamm 8y ago
    Careful; China has been ramping up the brain drain. Google & the USA do not have a monopoly on brain power. Besides, how is Google offering China anything it doesn't have? From my perspective, operating in China is merely defending forced losses, such as companies that use Google cloud and want to operate in China.
• 394549 8y ago
  > As I see it the choice is to either do what Google is doing, which means being involved, staying relevant, and making a few bucks along the way, or to stay away. In the latter case the only result will be diminished influence for Google and by extension the USA, as that won't damage China at all, it will just leave the door open for new Chinese tech giants. In the former case it means increased influence of China's authoritarian government over an important western company that billions use to learn about the world. China has already used the implied threat to the Chinese operations of several American airlines to force them to make political changes to their global websites (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-44948599 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-44948599). What do you think will happen if China asks Google to make changes to the results ranking for this query (https://www.google.com/search?q=tibet https://www.google.com/search?q=tibet), so that it can continue "to share China's development opportunities [and] invest in and operate in China?" There are a couple of links on the first page I'm sure the Chinese government would say do not "respect China's laws and rules, China's sovereignty and territorial integrity and the feelings of the Chinese people."
• commandlinefan 8y ago
  Well, not that I think this guy's gesture (brave though it might be) will amount to anything - China is the guinea pig. If mass surveillance and mass censorship work there, you can bet it'll come here, too. They can perfect it from a distance, at very little risk if things go wrong, and spring the trap on us when it's ready.
  • bdamm 8y ago
    There are plenty of examples of governments with mass surveillance (UK, China, Singapore, many others). Mass censorship has been active in China for quite a long time. If you believe that the only way to prevent mass surveillance "here" (where do you live?) is to eradicate it everywhere, then I'm afraid that you've already lost. Hopefully your government is still functioning with regards to regulations and oversight of surveillance and freedom of the press.
• nradov 8y ago
  A third option would be to find technical means to actively undermine and circumvent the Great Firewall of China.
  • claydavisss 8y ago
    Do you mind if someone else undermines the filtering of "hate" content from US sites?
    • minkzilla 8y ago
      As someone from the US, no. Free speech is much more important to me than people not having to see offensive things.
• toss1 8y ago
  Odious nonsense. Google are having zero influence on China's totalitarian government, and there is zero hope that they could have any such influence. It is either do what the CCP wants, when they want it, or Google gets booted anyway in favor of the locals. Most likely, China is simply using them to build and steal the best surveillance technology faster. The better result from a human rights POV would be to have less-competent locals build it. The sole exception would be if Google is working very tightly with NSA, CIA, etc. and actually installing a massive US spy network within China. While this is a possibility we wouldn't know about, it's unlikely given Google's culture. So, no, this is not even close to being in the interests of the US or it's citizens (a few major Alphabet shareholders excepted).
  • ElBarto 8y ago
    > Google are having zero influence on China's totalitarian government, and there is zero hope that they could have any such influence Exactly. Therefore it is nonsense to be outraged by what Google is doing.
    • ArchTypical 8y ago
      > Therefore it is nonsense to be outraged by what Google is doing. I think you missed an important implication, from the context. > Google are having zero influence on <limiting> China's totalitarian government
    • toss1 8y ago
      You have _entirely_ missed the context. To spell it out, the GP was positing that by working with the CCP, Google was somehow adding western pro-human rights influence to the mix. This is false because the CCP will allow no such influence. Google's only possible influence is to enhance the effectiveness of the CCP's initiatives by adding Google's greater competence and development speed to the CCP's goal of mass surveillance and distorting or filtering the facts available to the Chinese people. So, yes, since Google is enhancing the CCP's totalitarian goals of controlling the populace, outrage is quite appropriate (unless of course, you oppose the general principles of democracy and people being able to govern themselves).
• erikpukinskis 8y ago
  Google staying out of China absolutely hurts China. Healthy competition and free exploration of markets leads to better tools which creates both economic and cultural value. China is sacrificing that in order to maintain cultural control. It’s precisely the cost of Google’s absence which could twist their arm. (Although I suspect they won’t change until they are forced to by censorship-resistant creatures which will spawn Jurrasic Park-style in the next decade from the morass of cheap electronic components and waste ideas)
  • pas 8y ago
    Copying, especially in the Information Age is immensely powerful. Sure, the market selects between a successful copy and a shitty one, but there's still a long way to go before lack of a healthy [internal] market impedes China's "progress".
• toss1 8y ago
  Realpolitik: "A system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations." -- Oxford English Dictionary You are right it's called Realpolitik. You are advocating for amoral action, simply for profit, regardless of ethical considerations. Your consistent promotion of this is repugnant, and raises the question of whether you are shilling for the CCP, are clueless about actual international affairs, or are simply amoral yourself.