8 ms·

The fact that this kind of article needs to be written in the first place seems to confirm that there's so many basic things that people just don't learn how to

The fact that this kind of article needs to be written in the first place seems to confirm that there's so many basic things that people just don't learn how to do anymore, because exponential advances in technology have changed our lives so drastically that we just no longer run into the situations where we would organically learn those things. Especially with the internet, it's easier than ever to shut yourself in and never go out into the real world and have real meaningful interactions, while still feeling like your online life is full of real, meaningful interactions. Just immerse yourself into a sub-community filled with 2k people, and you feel like a social butterfly. And it's not just social lives. Things like learning how to interact in basic ways with your cashier at the store, or how to make new friends outside of work, so many of us just don't know how to do this, because our heads were in The Cloud™s while we texted and browsed reddit in line at the grocery store. Things have even changed profoundly within a single generation. When I was in school, Tamagotchis were the thing. When my little brother was in school, his teacher was using YouTube to teach them. Now my son is in high school and all his classmates have Android phones, which are such a game changer that they aren't even allowed to even have them turned on in school. And going back a little further, my oldest son and daughter have The Dangerous Book for Boys and The Daring Book for Girls which teach stuff that 100 years ago everyone knew, and now you need to buy novelty books to learn, despite many of the skills and tricks these books teach still being useful.

tqi 8y ago
How to Win Friends and Influence People was published in 1936, and has a lot of similar advice about how to interact with people. Technology has clearly changed the contours of our interactions but I think it would be a stretch to assert that social awkwardness is a new phenomenon.
maxxxxx 8y ago
I grew up before the internet and I never learned how to navigate parties. I think it depends more on being able to see somebody close to you to learn from.
- sdegutis 8y ago
  Right, seeing by example is how we learn most basic soft skills. But if you're staring at your Nintendo 3DS (or Sega Game Gear like I was gifted as a 5 year old) when your parents drag you along to parties or to the grocery store or wherever, then you're not going to learn anything at all, except maybe how to beat level 2.
  - jstandard 8y ago
    I still don't see this as a new phenomenon. Before Android phones there were Game Gears. Before those we had Tiger Electronics handhelds. Before those we had comic books. The only major thing that seems to have changed are the names of the distractions.
    - sdegutis 8y ago
      Also how much content they contain. You could go through a new comic in 20 minutes flat. Game Gears could last a few hours. Android phones provide endless content.
      - leetcrew 8y ago
        > Android phones provide endless content this is a true statement, but idk how different it really is for the kids. when i was a kid i would happily spend hours rereading the same garbage star wars expanded universe books over and over and over, even though i had basically memorized the plot. with the abundance of content, i doubt today's children would be as satisfied to revisit the same thing so many times, but i also doubt that they waste much more time than i did.
      - jstandard 8y ago
        They provide endless _new_ content. I still don't see how the kids of today aren't learning social skills through observing their parents because mobile devices are sucking their attention away. My point is that the nature of what kids do at parties hasn't changed in any significant way to support your original claim that there are "so many basic things we just don't learn how to do anymore".
jonknee 8y ago
People have been awkward at parties since there were three or more people gathering in a social setting.
vlunkr 8y ago
I don't know, I'm pretty sure parties have always been awful for some part of the population. Personally my solution is to never go to them.
- finaliteration 8y ago
  I’ve always hated them, even before the Internet was huge. I’m a fairly social person and I’m okay in crowds, but once the number of people I’m trying to interact with exceeds ~10 it’s just too much for me. The worst are work “parties” and happy hours where everyone feels forced to go, no meaningful team building really happens, and the cliques in a company become more evident and visible. Plus I’ve lost some hearing due to one too many loud metal shows, so party conversation is pretty stressful.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    >no meaningful team building really happens, and the cliques in a company become more evident and visible. Are your work parties dry? I work at BigCo we have a monthly "free beer and pizza" on our floor and it's the great at getting people to meet each other and de-siloing.
    - finaliteration 8y ago
      > Are your work parties dry? They aren’t but it still ends up being the same people grouping up and talking to each other. Maybe it’s the company culture but it makes the whole affair feel pretty uninviting.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  There are just many different types of party. The default is just bad, true. In my youth it was common to drink at a "party", until it was fun. Then I decided that parties where I need to be drunk to enjoy, are not worth my time. But trust me, there are different ones ...
- leetcrew 8y ago
  i don't genuinely enjoy most parties, but i do very much enjoy small gatherings of close friends. unfortunately, close friends do not grow on trees, and as an adult, i don't actually get that many opportunities to meet a broad range of new people. i find that parties are one of the few places in american society where it is acceptable to just approach people who seem interesting and start talking to them, so i see value in them even if i don't like them, per se.
funnotatparties 8y ago
"go out into the real world" screw parties (exchange screw for the f bomb). If you have any kind of convictions not a days its really difficult to go into crowds above 30. One person will be a complete idiot or disgusting and its either being able to enjoy the company of such a person or leave. Im middle class (bachelors degree, not from a wealthy family) and the "medicore" , "average" person just talks so much shit out of their ass. Its like a public twitter forum where stupid cliches about "Trump is an idiot" or so much drugs and even orgies have become a not too crazy idea. Can we have the 50s back without the racism. The people are not the same but parties are not the same either. I wonder if the rich have stayed classy? Parties are like a rap video. Twerking being a phenomena should tell you all you need to know about the "party" culture in America.
- andrepd 8y ago
  There's a lot going on in that comment... You need to sort that out.
  - funnotatparties 8y ago
    I was being tongue and cheek for the most part.Is there really nothing in my previous comment that does not resonate with your juxtaposition on how the standard "party" has changed from previous generations. Hell give me the 70s, at least the disco seemed fun. But I guess thats where the drugs started too. Anyways I would appreciate just ignoring the comment instead of being snarky. This board has standard I hope it strives to keep.
    - metalliqaz 8y ago
      > This board has standard I hope it strives to keep. It seems to have done its best to downvote you.
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    kinda reminds me of ajit pai going off on why he hates america. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNR3Z6hWTvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNR3Z6hWTvg
andrepd 8y ago
I think you're projecting and making broad assumptions with no evidence, based on your feel and the ever present "back in my day" syndrome. People have been awkward and people have been sociable before the internet, and people are awkward and sociable after the internet. Today you have people with their heads buried in their phones, 100 years ago it was newspapers. There is no qualitative shift, at least I will not proclaim so without evidence. And yes, this article is patently ridiculous. Way to overthink something that should be about relaxing and having fun.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  >Today you have people with their heads buried in their phones, 100 years ago it was newspapers. However, there is also no evidence that people 20 years ago were walking around all day with their heads buried in newspapers, reading them in grocery store lines, during walks in the park, and in class when they weren't really supposed to. Maybe on benches and on the bus.
  - andrepd 8y ago
    Yes, I'm not saying I deny it either. I just say not to jump to conclusions based on gut feeling and "back in my day" arguments.
- miketuritzin 8y ago
  I agreed with you until the last paragraph. Parties "should" be relaxing and fun, but what if they aren't? Focusing on how you should feel a certain way when you don't isn't helpful, whereas making adjustments to how you act or think about things can be.
- chrisco255 8y ago
  I'm a senior millennial (mid-80s kid) but I can tell you, anecdotally, that younger generation is more addicted to their phones and devices than my gen ever was. There was a car accident in front of my younger cousins' house where a car hit a fence and literally flipped over. While me and my uncle/aunt and a few others called for help and chatted about the event...my younger cousins were busy texting the event to their friends. It was as if they were there, but not really there.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sophacles 8y ago
On the one hand I see where you are going, but on the other hand, 100+ years ago there existed etiquette books and charm schools (aka finishing schools) and so on. In the middle ages noble children were sent off to be raised by allies and relatives where they would be trained in how to do court. A staple plot of teen movies going back forever (to at least the 80s, but probably longer) is a kid who somehow makes friends with the cool kids and they actively teach the "loser" to be "cool". Point being, sure there is maybe less chance of learning these skills organically, but I think that intentional learning of these skills is not a new thing that modern life has brought about.
EADGBE 8y ago
Sometimes it's okay to evolve in the sense that average people forget how to do (now) unnecessary things. I.E. Standard/Manual Transmissions Socially, maybe not, but my example still stands.
codethief 8y ago
Relevant: > Texting is now the preferred form of communication [among teenagers], with 35 percent of teens saying that’s their favorite way to communicate, compared with in-person (32 percent), social media (16 percent) and video chatting (10 percent). In 2012, in-person communication was the most popular. (Emphasis mine) Source: https://www.recode.net/2018/9/10/17826810/social-media-use-teens-time-spent-facebook-instagram-snapchat https://www.recode.net/2018/9/10/17826810/social-media-use-t...
bluGill 8y ago
Side note, if you are interested in skills that "everybody knew 100 years ago", there are much better books to be had. "The American boys Handy book" comes to mind. Popular Mechanic published a bunch of books back then (pre 1920, don't be confused with some of the latter stuff which isn't as good). Of course those books assume that there are things like a junk model T in the backyard that you are free to take parts from or otherwise destroy. Just to name one change in circumstances.
bitwize 8y ago
I fucking hate parties, and never had a "real meaningful connection" at one. But that's not to say I've never had such connections. Attempting to do so just becomes more difficult when you're trying to raise your voice above ambient noise levels and listen to someone trying to do the same. I certainly lost the illusion of online communities being like real communities. I mean, I certainly don't post to HN to feel socially competent.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  > I certainly lost the illusion of online communities being like real communities this was a really sad part of growing up for me.
sandworm101 8y ago
No. It wasn't the internet or cellphones or gaming. This is a 20th century problem. Previous societies had rigid systems of etiquette. We don't. One upon a time if someone wanted to start a conversation with a stranger there was a clear and practiced way of doing so. You could easily identify whether a person was of a similar class and background to yourself. Then there were acceptable and unacceptable times and places for such conversations. It was rigid, formal and often evil (racism etc) but it gave everyone guidelines. Vestiges of this still exist today. Two doctors or lawyers know how to identify and address each other. Certainly the military has formal rules. It isn't about common backgrounds, it is about knowing exactly how the other person expects to be addressed and how they will respond to you. Such knowledge makes starting that first conversation easier.
monksy 8y ago
On that same note: I think we're seeing 2 problems: 1. People really don't want to get together due to the consequence of callout culture/(PCism/SJWism). This has caused people (I'm seeing the effects with the communities I currently and have previously maintained) to be less likely to share, be willing to meet with people, and even branch out their friend circles. Censorship/Censorship has been the conservative "let's all get along" response. 2. Technology has become a detriment, I'm not sure when we're going to have our WWI for personal technology. (WWI introduced the concept that all of these improvements in technology may also bring death and destruction) Given the hooks of technology, we're going to get to a really nastic predicament here. I'm not sure how to describe what it will be, or how we can fix it. But we're losing valuable communication skills and we're making things worse for society. (That has been an ongoing thing for a while) My theory: We're going to go into a dark age. ---- Lastly: If you found this article somewhat helpful, I would suggest reading Captivate by Vanessa Williams/Edwards?
- Hermitian909 8y ago
  For some counter perspective to point 1, I'm a white male in the Bay Area whose interests often place me in diverse groups, some of whom advocate social justice policies. I haven't noticed SJW/PC culture as an actual barrier to socializing and no one I maintain contact with has ever mentioned it as a problem. Anecdotally, SJW/PC call-out culture appears to have a much more depressing effect on public discourse over the internet where posting opens you to criticism from anyone on the internet.
  - monksy 8y ago
    Are those groups focused on sj polices? If they're groups where that's not the focus, and they've injected those policies. (I.e. let's say a HN user group) That's a problem. How comfortable would you feel stating a disagreement without even mentioning your identity or status? How comfortable would you be in stating the disagreement if you weren't 100% confident on what you were saying?
    - Hermitian909 8y ago

tqi 8y ago

How to Win Friends and Influence People was published in 1936, and has a lot of similar advice about how to interact with people. Technology has clearly changed the contours of our interactions but I think it would be a stretch to assert that social awkwardness is a new phenomenon.

maxxxxx 8y ago

I grew up before the internet and I never learned how to navigate parties. I think it depends more on being able to see somebody close to you to learn from.

sdegutis 8y ago
Right, seeing by example is how we learn most basic soft skills. But if you're staring at your Nintendo 3DS (or Sega Game Gear like I was gifted as a 5 year old) when your parents drag you along to parties or to the grocery store or wherever, then you're not going to learn anything at all, except maybe how to beat level 2.
- jstandard 8y ago
  I still don't see this as a new phenomenon. Before Android phones there were Game Gears. Before those we had Tiger Electronics handhelds. Before those we had comic books. The only major thing that seems to have changed are the names of the distractions.
  - sdegutis 8y ago
    Also how much content they contain. You could go through a new comic in 20 minutes flat. Game Gears could last a few hours. Android phones provide endless content.
    - leetcrew 8y ago
      > Android phones provide endless content this is a true statement, but idk how different it really is for the kids. when i was a kid i would happily spend hours rereading the same garbage star wars expanded universe books over and over and over, even though i had basically memorized the plot. with the abundance of content, i doubt today's children would be as satisfied to revisit the same thing so many times, but i also doubt that they waste much more time than i did.
    - jstandard 8y ago
      They provide endless _new_ content. I still don't see how the kids of today aren't learning social skills through observing their parents because mobile devices are sucking their attention away. My point is that the nature of what kids do at parties hasn't changed in any significant way to support your original claim that there are "so many basic things we just don't learn how to do anymore".

jonknee 8y ago

People have been awkward at parties since there were three or more people gathering in a social setting.

vlunkr 8y ago

I don't know, I'm pretty sure parties have always been awful for some part of the population. Personally my solution is to never go to them.

finaliteration 8y ago
I’ve always hated them, even before the Internet was huge. I’m a fairly social person and I’m okay in crowds, but once the number of people I’m trying to interact with exceeds ~10 it’s just too much for me. The worst are work “parties” and happy hours where everyone feels forced to go, no meaningful team building really happens, and the cliques in a company become more evident and visible. Plus I’ve lost some hearing due to one too many loud metal shows, so party conversation is pretty stressful.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >no meaningful team building really happens, and the cliques in a company become more evident and visible. Are your work parties dry? I work at BigCo we have a monthly "free beer and pizza" on our floor and it's the great at getting people to meet each other and de-siloing.
  - finaliteration 8y ago
    > Are your work parties dry? They aren’t but it still ends up being the same people grouping up and talking to each other. Maybe it’s the company culture but it makes the whole affair feel pretty uninviting.
hutzlibu 8y ago
There are just many different types of party. The default is just bad, true. In my youth it was common to drink at a "party", until it was fun. Then I decided that parties where I need to be drunk to enjoy, are not worth my time. But trust me, there are different ones ...
leetcrew 8y ago
i don't genuinely enjoy most parties, but i do very much enjoy small gatherings of close friends. unfortunately, close friends do not grow on trees, and as an adult, i don't actually get that many opportunities to meet a broad range of new people. i find that parties are one of the few places in american society where it is acceptable to just approach people who seem interesting and start talking to them, so i see value in them even if i don't like them, per se.

funnotatparties 8y ago

"go out into the real world" screw parties (exchange screw for the f bomb). If you have any kind of convictions not a days its really difficult to go into crowds above 30. One person will be a complete idiot or disgusting and its either being able to enjoy the company of such a person or leave. Im middle class (bachelors degree, not from a wealthy family) and the "medicore" , "average" person just talks so much shit out of their ass. Its like a public twitter forum where stupid cliches about "Trump is an idiot" or so much drugs and even orgies have become a not too crazy idea. Can we have the 50s back without the racism. The people are not the same but parties are not the same either. I wonder if the rich have stayed classy? Parties are like a rap video. Twerking being a phenomena should tell you all you need to know about the "party" culture in America.

andrepd 8y ago
There's a lot going on in that comment... You need to sort that out.
- funnotatparties 8y ago
  I was being tongue and cheek for the most part.Is there really nothing in my previous comment that does not resonate with your juxtaposition on how the standard "party" has changed from previous generations. Hell give me the 70s, at least the disco seemed fun. But I guess thats where the drugs started too. Anyways I would appreciate just ignoring the comment instead of being snarky. This board has standard I hope it strives to keep.
  - metalliqaz 8y ago
    > This board has standard I hope it strives to keep. It seems to have done its best to downvote you.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  kinda reminds me of ajit pai going off on why he hates america. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNR3Z6hWTvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNR3Z6hWTvg

andrepd 8y ago

I think you're projecting and making broad assumptions with no evidence, based on your feel and the ever present "back in my day" syndrome. People have been awkward and people have been sociable before the internet, and people are awkward and sociable after the internet. Today you have people with their heads buried in their phones, 100 years ago it was newspapers. There is no qualitative shift, at least I will not proclaim so without evidence. And yes, this article is patently ridiculous. Way to overthink something that should be about relaxing and having fun.

whatshisface 8y ago
>Today you have people with their heads buried in their phones, 100 years ago it was newspapers. However, there is also no evidence that people 20 years ago were walking around all day with their heads buried in newspapers, reading them in grocery store lines, during walks in the park, and in class when they weren't really supposed to. Maybe on benches and on the bus.
- andrepd 8y ago
  Yes, I'm not saying I deny it either. I just say not to jump to conclusions based on gut feeling and "back in my day" arguments.
miketuritzin 8y ago
I agreed with you until the last paragraph. Parties "should" be relaxing and fun, but what if they aren't? Focusing on how you should feel a certain way when you don't isn't helpful, whereas making adjustments to how you act or think about things can be.
chrisco255 8y ago
I'm a senior millennial (mid-80s kid) but I can tell you, anecdotally, that younger generation is more addicted to their phones and devices than my gen ever was. There was a car accident in front of my younger cousins' house where a car hit a fence and literally flipped over. While me and my uncle/aunt and a few others called for help and chatted about the event...my younger cousins were busy texting the event to their friends. It was as if they were there, but not really there.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

sophacles 8y ago

On the one hand I see where you are going, but on the other hand, 100+ years ago there existed etiquette books and charm schools (aka finishing schools) and so on. In the middle ages noble children were sent off to be raised by allies and relatives where they would be trained in how to do court. A staple plot of teen movies going back forever (to at least the 80s, but probably longer) is a kid who somehow makes friends with the cool kids and they actively teach the "loser" to be "cool". Point being, sure there is maybe less chance of learning these skills organically, but I think that intentional learning of these skills is not a new thing that modern life has brought about.

EADGBE 8y ago

Sometimes it's okay to evolve in the sense that average people forget how to do (now) unnecessary things. I.E. Standard/Manual Transmissions Socially, maybe not, but my example still stands.

codethief 8y ago

Relevant: > Texting is now the preferred form of communication [among teenagers], with 35 percent of teens saying that’s their favorite way to communicate, compared with in-person (32 percent), social media (16 percent) and video chatting (10 percent). In 2012, in-person communication was the most popular. (Emphasis mine) Source: https://www.recode.net/2018/9/10/17826810/social-media-use-teens-time-spent-facebook-instagram-snapchat https://www.recode.net/2018/9/10/17826810/social-media-use-t...

bluGill 8y ago

Side note, if you are interested in skills that "everybody knew 100 years ago", there are much better books to be had. "The American boys Handy book" comes to mind. Popular Mechanic published a bunch of books back then (pre 1920, don't be confused with some of the latter stuff which isn't as good). Of course those books assume that there are things like a junk model T in the backyard that you are free to take parts from or otherwise destroy. Just to name one change in circumstances.

bitwize 8y ago

I fucking hate parties, and never had a "real meaningful connection" at one. But that's not to say I've never had such connections. Attempting to do so just becomes more difficult when you're trying to raise your voice above ambient noise levels and listen to someone trying to do the same. I certainly lost the illusion of online communities being like real communities. I mean, I certainly don't post to HN to feel socially competent.

leetcrew 8y ago
> I certainly lost the illusion of online communities being like real communities this was a really sad part of growing up for me.

sandworm101 8y ago

No. It wasn't the internet or cellphones or gaming. This is a 20th century problem. Previous societies had rigid systems of etiquette. We don't. One upon a time if someone wanted to start a conversation with a stranger there was a clear and practiced way of doing so. You could easily identify whether a person was of a similar class and background to yourself. Then there were acceptable and unacceptable times and places for such conversations. It was rigid, formal and often evil (racism etc) but it gave everyone guidelines. Vestiges of this still exist today. Two doctors or lawyers know how to identify and address each other. Certainly the military has formal rules. It isn't about common backgrounds, it is about knowing exactly how the other person expects to be addressed and how they will respond to you. Such knowledge makes starting that first conversation easier.

monksy 8y ago

On that same note: I think we're seeing 2 problems: 1. People really don't want to get together due to the consequence of callout culture/(PCism/SJWism). This has caused people (I'm seeing the effects with the communities I currently and have previously maintained) to be less likely to share, be willing to meet with people, and even branch out their friend circles. Censorship/Censorship has been the conservative "let's all get along" response. 2. Technology has become a detriment, I'm not sure when we're going to have our WWI for personal technology. (WWI introduced the concept that all of these improvements in technology may also bring death and destruction) Given the hooks of technology, we're going to get to a really nastic predicament here. I'm not sure how to describe what it will be, or how we can fix it. But we're losing valuable communication skills and we're making things worse for society. (That has been an ongoing thing for a while) My theory: We're going to go into a dark age. ---- Lastly: If you found this article somewhat helpful, I would suggest reading Captivate by Vanessa Williams/Edwards?

Hermitian909 8y ago
For some counter perspective to point 1, I'm a white male in the Bay Area whose interests often place me in diverse groups, some of whom advocate social justice policies. I haven't noticed SJW/PC culture as an actual barrier to socializing and no one I maintain contact with has ever mentioned it as a problem. Anecdotally, SJW/PC call-out culture appears to have a much more depressing effect on public discourse over the internet where posting opens you to criticism from anyone on the internet.
- monksy 8y ago
  Are those groups focused on sj polices? If they're groups where that's not the focus, and they've injected those policies. (I.e. let's say a HN user group) That's a problem. How comfortable would you feel stating a disagreement without even mentioning your identity or status? How comfortable would you be in stating the disagreement if you weren't 100% confident on what you were saying?
  - Hermitian909 8y ago