6 ms·

South Carolina officials won't evacuate prison ahead of hurricane

38 points by petethomas 8y ago

mpolichette 8y ago
I'm not aware if this is a public or private prison... but does anyone know if that would matter? Would a private prison be required to evacuate and do whatever it takes to move the prisoners safely?
- rayiner 8y ago
  South Carolina had no private prisons.
- briandear 8y ago
  Are they actually unsafe now? Anyone see the blueprints of the prison? The topo shows it 10 feet higher than surrounding land. A prison is probably the safest place during a hurricane. Assuming the inmates aren’t safe where they are is an especially big assumption that deserves debate. But the knee-jerk response is that they are all in severe danger based on no facts other than a hurricane might be heading in that direction. Risk assessment isn’t easily translated in puerile news articles designed to rile people up. If it weren’t for the fact the governor is Republican, and it wasn’t election season, this would be a non-story: nowhere in the story did it discuss the structure or placement of the prison, nor the risk assessment matrix used to determine safety. Rikers Island wasn’t evacuated during Sandy and that wasn’t some controversy except for an article in Mother Jones while Republican governor Christie evacuated relevant New Jersey prisons. Was Cuomo held to account for failing to evacuate Rikers which was in the direct path of the storm — and an island at that? In the end, didn’t Rikers survive just fine? Perhaps the people in charge of these decisions might actually know what they are doing? With the exception of Ray Nagin and the one-step-from-a-nervous-breakdown Gov. Blanco, states typically do a pretty good job with these sorts of decisions; certainly a better job than the armchair experts and journalists that have limited experience in these sorts of challenges. These debates are fine, but let’s not discount the motivations behind these sorts of stories. And I also wonder what merits this story on Hacker News. It doesn’t follow the guidelines at all unless I missed some startup or tech or esoteric item of interest to our community.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
usepgp 8y ago
> "In the past, it’s been safer to leave them there." from wikipedia: "Ridgeland Correctional Institution is a state prison for men located in Ridgeland, Jasper County" > "During a Tuesday press conference, McMaster lifted the evacuation order for Jasper County." sounds like they aren't doing anything wrong? Edit: just took a look at a topo map, it appears that the prison is ~10 feet higher than the surrounding land, so should be significantly more immune to flooding than a standard residence. https://imgur.com/a/x2SDcuX https://imgur.com/a/x2SDcuX (excuse the JPEGging)
- stochastic_monk 8y ago
  > We know the evacuation order I’m issuing will be inconvenient,” McMaster said during the evacuation press conference. “But we’re not going to gamble with the lives of the people of South Carolina. Not a one.” Sounds to me like they’re just avoiding inconvenience. A spokesman for the prison doesn’t necessarily have the inmates’ best wishes at heart.
  - codyb 8y ago
    But wouldn't the guards have to stay? Seems to me no matter how you feel about the sanctity of the prisoners lives you'd be hardpressed as a warden to risk your own and your mens to... be cruel I guess?
  - usepgp 8y ago
    It says that McMaster lifted the evacuation order for the county the prison is located in today. That was the second quote in my comment.
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      Did the prison issue their decision before or after that, though?
    - stochastic_monk 8y ago
      Seemingly in response to their refusal.
jmathai 8y ago
Ethics aside, how do you evacuate 1,000 inmates? I assume you'd have to bus them to another facility which had room for them. Seems challenging any way you look at it.
- cptaj 8y ago
  Its just 6 buses or so. This isn't challenging at all for government logistics. Heck, its peanuts for campaign event logistics. I really don't see any excuse. And even if it WAS somehow challenging, tough shit, man. The state is responsible for them whether they like it or not. Even if you had limited resources, you have to save the inmates before saving the rest. That or open the gates and let them fend for themselves. But as long as they're your prisoner, you're responsible.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    I mostly agree with you. However, > Even if you had limited resources, you have to save the inmates before saving the rest. This is a real stretch. While the state needs to exercise due care, being convicted does not entitle you to rights that the regular citizenry of the state and employees do not have. In fact, constitutionally-speaking, it's the exact opposite.
    - jackvalentine 8y ago
      You have to save them before the rest because you're removed their ability to save themselves.
    - notafraudster 8y ago
      Constitutionally speaking, inmates enjoy the exact same rights as anyone else unless specifically limited; and there also exist a variety of statutory ways in which inmates are entitled to certain things the general populace are not (most notably medical care and housing, which are not generally entitlements to citizens or non-citizen residents of the country.) I have no idea if there is a reason to believe that South Carolina should save inmates first (or last, or...) in a natural disaster.
salawat 8y ago
See, this is the type of thing that really shows people's true colors. "But they're inmates! They shouldn't have committed the crime!" They're humans. Incarcerated at your will. You have responsibility for them. They can't do anything about it. "But criminals!" No cruel and unusual punishment. You sentenced them to incarceration. Not death by natural disaster. If it's bad enough for an official mandate to leave, it's bad enough to figure out the logistics. I love it when the real world suddenly faces trolley problems. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Philosophy: what happens when "that'll never happen" happens anyway. But hey, you do you South Carolina. Just don't complain if things end up going badly, and your State ends up host to one of the most gruesome corrections system mishaps and constitutional rights violations of our Nation's history.
- usepgp 8y ago
  But thats the thing, its _not_ bad enough for an office mandate of evacuation. Even the recommendation was lifted today.
alphabettsy 8y ago
Hopefully it turns out better for them than the inmates during Katrina.

38 points by petethomas 8y ago

I'm not aware if this is a public or private prison... but does anyone know if that would matter? Would a private prison be required to evacuate and do whatever it takes to move the prisoners safely?

rayiner 8y ago
South Carolina had no private prisons.
briandear 8y ago
Are they actually unsafe now? Anyone see the blueprints of the prison? The topo shows it 10 feet higher than surrounding land. A prison is probably the safest place during a hurricane. Assuming the inmates aren’t safe where they are is an especially big assumption that deserves debate. But the knee-jerk response is that they are all in severe danger based on no facts other than a hurricane might be heading in that direction. Risk assessment isn’t easily translated in puerile news articles designed to rile people up. If it weren’t for the fact the governor is Republican, and it wasn’t election season, this would be a non-story: nowhere in the story did it discuss the structure or placement of the prison, nor the risk assessment matrix used to determine safety. Rikers Island wasn’t evacuated during Sandy and that wasn’t some controversy except for an article in Mother Jones while Republican governor Christie evacuated relevant New Jersey prisons. Was Cuomo held to account for failing to evacuate Rikers which was in the direct path of the storm — and an island at that? In the end, didn’t Rikers survive just fine? Perhaps the people in charge of these decisions might actually know what they are doing? With the exception of Ray Nagin and the one-step-from-a-nervous-breakdown Gov. Blanco, states typically do a pretty good job with these sorts of decisions; certainly a better job than the armchair experts and journalists that have limited experience in these sorts of challenges. These debates are fine, but let’s not discount the motivations behind these sorts of stories. And I also wonder what merits this story on Hacker News. It doesn’t follow the guidelines at all unless I missed some startup or tech or esoteric item of interest to our community.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

usepgp 8y ago

> "In the past, it’s been safer to leave them there." from wikipedia: "Ridgeland Correctional Institution is a state prison for men located in Ridgeland, Jasper County" > "During a Tuesday press conference, McMaster lifted the evacuation order for Jasper County." sounds like they aren't doing anything wrong? Edit: just took a look at a topo map, it appears that the prison is ~10 feet higher than the surrounding land, so should be significantly more immune to flooding than a standard residence. https://imgur.com/a/x2SDcuX https://imgur.com/a/x2SDcuX (excuse the JPEGging)

stochastic_monk 8y ago
> We know the evacuation order I’m issuing will be inconvenient,” McMaster said during the evacuation press conference. “But we’re not going to gamble with the lives of the people of South Carolina. Not a one.” Sounds to me like they’re just avoiding inconvenience. A spokesman for the prison doesn’t necessarily have the inmates’ best wishes at heart.
- codyb 8y ago
  But wouldn't the guards have to stay? Seems to me no matter how you feel about the sanctity of the prisoners lives you'd be hardpressed as a warden to risk your own and your mens to... be cruel I guess?
- usepgp 8y ago
  It says that McMaster lifted the evacuation order for the county the prison is located in today. That was the second quote in my comment.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    Did the prison issue their decision before or after that, though?
  - stochastic_monk 8y ago
    Seemingly in response to their refusal.

jmathai 8y ago

Ethics aside, how do you evacuate 1,000 inmates? I assume you'd have to bus them to another facility which had room for them. Seems challenging any way you look at it.

cptaj 8y ago
Its just 6 buses or so. This isn't challenging at all for government logistics. Heck, its peanuts for campaign event logistics. I really don't see any excuse. And even if it WAS somehow challenging, tough shit, man. The state is responsible for them whether they like it or not. Even if you had limited resources, you have to save the inmates before saving the rest. That or open the gates and let them fend for themselves. But as long as they're your prisoner, you're responsible.
- tathougies 8y ago
  I mostly agree with you. However, > Even if you had limited resources, you have to save the inmates before saving the rest. This is a real stretch. While the state needs to exercise due care, being convicted does not entitle you to rights that the regular citizenry of the state and employees do not have. In fact, constitutionally-speaking, it's the exact opposite.
  - jackvalentine 8y ago
    You have to save them before the rest because you're removed their ability to save themselves.
  - notafraudster 8y ago
    Constitutionally speaking, inmates enjoy the exact same rights as anyone else unless specifically limited; and there also exist a variety of statutory ways in which inmates are entitled to certain things the general populace are not (most notably medical care and housing, which are not generally entitlements to citizens or non-citizen residents of the country.) I have no idea if there is a reason to believe that South Carolina should save inmates first (or last, or...) in a natural disaster.

salawat 8y ago

See, this is the type of thing that really shows people's true colors. "But they're inmates! They shouldn't have committed the crime!" They're humans. Incarcerated at your will. You have responsibility for them. They can't do anything about it. "But criminals!" No cruel and unusual punishment. You sentenced them to incarceration. Not death by natural disaster. If it's bad enough for an official mandate to leave, it's bad enough to figure out the logistics. I love it when the real world suddenly faces trolley problems. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Philosophy: what happens when "that'll never happen" happens anyway. But hey, you do you South Carolina. Just don't complain if things end up going badly, and your State ends up host to one of the most gruesome corrections system mishaps and constitutional rights violations of our Nation's history.

usepgp 8y ago
But thats the thing, its _not_ bad enough for an office mandate of evacuation. Even the recommendation was lifted today.

alphabettsy 8y ago

Hopefully it turns out better for them than the inmates during Katrina.