11 ms·

Poaching Tesla

107 points by mercutio2 8y ago

giacaglia 8y ago
Apple entering the space would benefit consumers, but if Apple can't deliver a simple power mat (Airpower), it is hard to believe that they would be able to develop a car. Doug Field left Tesla probably because he couldn't scale the manufacturing plant for them. Apple doesn't build the hardware themselves but hires third-parties to do it, like Foxconn. It would be hard to imagine a company designing cars and letting third-parties build for them
- Rinzler89 8y ago
  Actually, it's more common than you think for a major brand to design a car and outsource the building to a third party or even to outsource the whole design and development of a model entirely. For example, Magna Steyr builds the E-Pace for Jaguar, the Countryman for Mini and the G-Wagon for Daimler in Graz, Austria. It also developed several cars on behalf of manufacturers such as the Audi TT, Fiat Bravo and Peugeot RCZ[1]. There were even rumors in Graz that execs from Cupertino have flown here to discuss the possibility of Magna building a car for Apple. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Steyr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Steyr
  - dingdongding 8y ago
    Apple won't outsource its products design to someone else. That's not Apple
    - baby 8y ago
      Apple is not a person or a single-thinking entity
    - cmelbye 8y ago
      The comment you’re replying to doesn’t say anything about outsourcing design.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  “PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in.”
- UncleEntity 8y ago
  > It would be hard to imagine a company designing cars and letting third-parties build for them TFA said they have (or speculatively have, don't remember?) a partnership with VW so it wouldn't be too far fetched for an Apple branded VW robocar in the works. Extra props for it being on the microbus platform[0]. [0]https://www.businessinsider.com/vw-microbus-launching-in-2022-will-have-big-updates-2018-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/vw-microbus-launching-in-202...
  - MBCook 8y ago
    I imagine there are multiple companies would be more than willing to build cars for Apple at the right price. Companies that really know what they’re doing. I bet Honda, Toyota, or maybe forward would be happy to do it for the right price. As long as they don’t think Apple is too big of a competitor it seems like a win-win. And since we all know Apple is going to be focusing on the high-end/luxury segment it might be worth their while.
AnthonyMouse 8y ago
There are some errors here: > The dramatic shift to SUVs in the U.S. is driven by consumers caring less about traditional car value metrics such as performance. The cause of this was exactly the opposite -- the CAFE rules classify SUVs as trucks and allow them to fall into a less stringent fuel economy standard. The result allows SUVs to be mass-market gasoline-powered large vehicles with powerful engines, which is no longer possible for things classified as cars. That factor is primarily what caused (big-engined) SUVs to replace station wagons and large performace sedans in the market, and the small car market is as strong as it ever was. He also calls Ives a visionary more than once, but that was Jobs. Apple has done well under Ives because of his management ability, not his ability to develop new product markets as Jobs did. Project Titan is a huge gamble. They're essentially trying to buy their way into a market where their competitors have a head start. Apple has the cash to potentially succeed doing that, but they could also spend billions and have it come to nothing, and it's not clear what they're adding that Waymo or Telsa or Uber doesn't already have. It seems to be some combination of "Google is doing it" and the fact that Steve Jobs saw that Telsa was onto something -- but there has been ten years of progress between then and now. And the speculation that Apple will focus on personalization is odd. Their model is walled-garden, curation, single USB port on the MacBook, everything soldered and nothing modular, any color you want as long as it's black. If anything vehicle personalization is going to become less prevalant with autonomous vehicles as it makes it easier to share vehicles if they can show up at the location of whichever part-owner needs it at a given time, or be leased out for ride sharing when not in use.
- Zanni 8y ago
  The iPhone doesn't stand out as customizable because, compared to its current competition, it's not. But it's massively more customizable than what was on the market before, thanks to the app store. Yes, it's software-based customization, but the hardware is so strong that that's still huge. Again, if you compare to Android, the options seem limited ... now. But compare to the then current state of the art, where you could install custom software, if you could find it, but few people actually did. Apple enabled a staggering degree of customization that we take for granted now. I don't think Apple's going to create modular cars where you can swap out hardware or that just come in a variety of form factors. If they create customizable cars (if they get into the car biz at all), it'll be through software. Tesla already hints at some of the possibilities here: on the same hardware platform you can upgrade your autopilot or performance, even your range. (I have a 60D, which has a 75KWh battery. I can order an online software upgrade to a 75D for $2K.) That's just what Tesla already does. I can't imagine what Apple might offer, but the possibilities are intriguing.
smilekzs 8y ago
> Even acquisitions that included consumer-facing products like Beats, Beddit, and Shazam (pending approval) were ultimately about the technology behind the products. I doubt the Beats acquisition is about the technology behind their headphones, especially with their questionable acoustics engineering [1]. The music service sounds more plausible, but then it wouldn't be about technology either. [1]: https://www.designnews.com/gadget-freak/beats-dre-teardown-weak-engineering-meets-strong-marketing/113333861745594 https://www.designnews.com/gadget-freak/beats-dre-teardown-w...
jacques_chester 8y ago
> Accordingly, some have concluded that Apple should acquire Tesla as a way of quickly jumping into the transportation industry. I produce salty remarks. McDonald's produces salty food. Therefore McDonald's should buy me out as a way of quickly jumping into the HN snark industry.
- Phlarp 8y ago
  To be fair, if McDonald's did want to move into the HN snark space, buying out existing contributors would be an effective way to go about doing it.
  - jacques_chester 8y ago
    I will stand by for the screenshot of my smiling mug on Our Incredible Journey.
newnewpdro 8y ago
> Even acquisitions that included consumer-facing products like Beats, Beddit, and Shazam (pending approval) were ultimately about the technology behind the products. Err, Beats? Their technology was shit, Apple bought a millenial brand.
- squarefoot 8y ago
  Yup. I wouldn't give up my three K141s for a truck loaded with Beats phones, but try asking to any teen out there.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    I remember someone tearing down fake beats and finding more expensive drivers in them than in the original thing beats are garbage.
- MBCook 8y ago
  Beats was purchased for the excellent music service and people. The headphone brand was a nice to have, premium image and all. Apple didn’t need people to tell them how to make headphones, they were already capable of that.
mothsonasloth 8y ago
I have been given a job offer with a car company to work in their research division in which they plan to develop more electric vehicles to take on Tesla. I am still on the fence but the job sounds interesting, its just that its a big corporate and I am skeptical they will be able to take on Tesla's monopoly on electric vehicles.
- tomjakubowski 8y ago
  In January, Nissan passed the 300,000 unit mark for deliveries of the Leaf worldwide. Tesla reached 300,000 deliveries across all models a month later. No one has a monopoly on electric vehicles.
  - mothsonasloth 8y ago
    Ok I think I'll take the job then
    - user5994461 8y ago
      You should go for it. Don't bother to think about Tesla, it's a small company that doesn't even have a presence outside the US. They just enjoy nice news because the David vs Goliath archetype sells in media. Any major manufacturer can roll out an equivalent car globally anytime and get in front of a Tesla in a heartbeat. I bet your new company will give you anything you need to do just that.
- protomyth 8y ago
  > they will be able to take on Tesla's monopoly on electric vehicles How is that statement supported by sales data?
  - Tade0 8y ago
    Tesla delivered a total of ~23 175 cars in August in the US. For comparison BMW delivered 23 789. And that's only because the former is supply-constrained.
0x8BADF00D 8y ago
I have a feeling that: a) Elon is having a mental breakdown b) Titan will die because of design by committee
- briandear 8y ago
  Nothing is designed by committee at Apple. That isn’t how they work.
  - MBCook 8y ago
    Which, ironically, seems to be one of the big issues now with many of their products. Division going into them seems to be a little too singular.
  - xedeon 8y ago
    I know Steve talked alot about not having committees at Apple. I wonder if that is still the case today.
- _louisr_ 8y ago
  If Elon avoided a mental breakdown in 2008, he certainly won't get one now.
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    Once a human has avoided having a cognitive overload, it's impossible for them to suffer another in the future.
    - _louisr_ 8y ago
      Correct
madengr 8y ago
Apple has run out of steam. What do we have to look forward too; the iPhone 20?
- daeken 8y ago
  A trillion dollar market cap can support the production of a hell of a lot of steam. I can't stand Apple's products of the last ~7 years, but I wouldn't bet against them in nearly any regard. They have the resources to weather any storm.
  - madengr 8y ago
    I should have said innovation. At this point they are more like a utility company.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      I’m not sure if you’re trolling. Have a scroll through this article and say that again; https://www.bloomberg.com/features/apple-iphone-guts/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/apple-iphone-guts/ There’s certainly a dearth of groundbreaking category defining new products, but you have to be blind to what is actually going into the intervals of each successive iPhone model to claim there’s no innovation happening. Personally I think the level of expertise, technology, and craftsmanship which has gone into the iPhone line is astounding. They have absolutely mastered the form factor to the point where you take it completely for granted.
      - jimmaswell 8y ago
        Who could ignore such innovation as the removal of the headphone jack?
        ryanwaggoner 8y ago
        Do you also pine for your missing floppy drive? I’ve used wired headphones maybe twice in the 18 months since I got my AirPods. In ten years almost no phones will have analog audio jacks and (almost) no one will care.
Camillo 8y ago
I don't understand what they mean when they say that "personalization" is the most important thing for customers when buying cars.
nutjob2 8y ago
Why do people insist on using the word "poach" when referring to people who were offered and accepted a new and usually better job or pay by a competing firm? It gives a negative connotation to a happy event for someone.
- taneq 8y ago
  You answered your own question. It's used to recast the employee as property of their employer, and the act of offering them another job as dishonourable.
  - granshaw 8y ago
    The deck is already so stacked against workers - we shouldn’t be perpetuating these terms
bodas 8y ago
> This lack of fresh perspective in automobile design is one factor likely fueling the growing interest in bikes and scooters in high density areas Cars suffer from a tragedy of the commons, even if you have the best Apple iCar in the world with self-driving, you will still get stuck in traffic because of all the people who don't. If Apple wants to improve the experience of cars they need to start a political party because that is a local governance problem not a design problem.
Animats 8y ago
Financially, it doesn't make sense. Getting into the car business would pull down Apple's stock. Apple is in a high-margin business. Autos are a low-margin business. When a high-margin company buys a low-margin one, the return on investment declines. That's the reason Apple can't acquire other large companies. Few companies have Apple's margins. Most acquisitions would drag them down. Even if they're profitable.
- IkmoIkmo 8y ago
  In a world where Apple chooses to invest scarce cash in A or B, with B being low-margin, and then choosing B. Not in a world where Apple's cash isn't so scarce that it has to choose either, but can choose both. The real question is, do investments in the car space get it a better return than whatever the return they had on their cash, which was likely quite small, too, and with no upside.
  - deafcalculus 8y ago
    Apple can always use that cash to buy back its stock. Spending it on Tesla has to get better returns than buying back itself for it to be worthwhile.
mulcahey 8y ago
Once cars are shared and autonomous they're going to be like riding a private bus, plane or train (or an Uber without a driver). You'll be staring at your phone/laptop/iPad for the whole ride and will not be personalizing anything but the sound playing over the speakers. An Apple Care would be as if Apple wanted to get into the house market. HomeKit+devices, Apple TV, HomePod etc. are analogous to what Apple could achieve in the car space. I can't see them releasing anything better than a fully autonomous Tesla that allows you to AirPlay to the center screen. It almost saddens me to see them poaching talent from Tesla when Tesla has so much momentum right now. I don't see Apple achieving anything Tesla won't in the long term. Instead, they're just going to delay how long it takes Tesla to get there.
skookumchuck 8y ago
I never thought I'd miss station wagons. Even classic car collectors/restorers avoid them.
beloch 8y ago
Performance... Style... Price... Reliability. Reliability is not just a part of performance. When it comes to cars, reliability is its own category and it's every bit as important as the others. How many cars are great performers but are rendered impractical by their lack of reliability? For many people, reliability trumps all other considerations. Personally, I'll pay extra and put up with a slower, clunkier vehicle if just works. Apple no longer produces particularly reliable software or hardware. Tesla is having problems doing that themselves. The marriage of the two? It would take a lot to make me trust a vehicle made by these two companies in partnership. If anything, Apple needs to acquire or partner with a proven auto company with a track-record of producing reliable designs. Quite frankly, Tesla would benefit from doing the same. Their vehicles are exciting in terms of their performance, but the reliability just isn't there yet.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  > * Personally, I'll pay extra and put up with a slower, clunkier vehicle if just works.* Toyota Camry is the car with the track record for reliability.

107 points by mercutio2 8y ago

Apple entering the space would benefit consumers, but if Apple can't deliver a simple power mat (Airpower), it is hard to believe that they would be able to develop a car. Doug Field left Tesla probably because he couldn't scale the manufacturing plant for them. Apple doesn't build the hardware themselves but hires third-parties to do it, like Foxconn. It would be hard to imagine a company designing cars and letting third-parties build for them

Rinzler89 8y ago
Actually, it's more common than you think for a major brand to design a car and outsource the building to a third party or even to outsource the whole design and development of a model entirely. For example, Magna Steyr builds the E-Pace for Jaguar, the Countryman for Mini and the G-Wagon for Daimler in Graz, Austria. It also developed several cars on behalf of manufacturers such as the Audi TT, Fiat Bravo and Peugeot RCZ[1]. There were even rumors in Graz that execs from Cupertino have flown here to discuss the possibility of Magna building a car for Apple. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Steyr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Steyr
- dingdongding 8y ago
  Apple won't outsource its products design to someone else. That's not Apple
  - baby 8y ago
    Apple is not a person or a single-thinking entity
  - cmelbye 8y ago
    The comment you’re replying to doesn’t say anything about outsourcing design.
lostlogin 8y ago
“PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in.”
UncleEntity 8y ago
> It would be hard to imagine a company designing cars and letting third-parties build for them TFA said they have (or speculatively have, don't remember?) a partnership with VW so it wouldn't be too far fetched for an Apple branded VW robocar in the works. Extra props for it being on the microbus platform[0]. [0]https://www.businessinsider.com/vw-microbus-launching-in-2022-will-have-big-updates-2018-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/vw-microbus-launching-in-202...
- MBCook 8y ago
  I imagine there are multiple companies would be more than willing to build cars for Apple at the right price. Companies that really know what they’re doing. I bet Honda, Toyota, or maybe forward would be happy to do it for the right price. As long as they don’t think Apple is too big of a competitor it seems like a win-win. And since we all know Apple is going to be focusing on the high-end/luxury segment it might be worth their while.

AnthonyMouse 8y ago

There are some errors here: > The dramatic shift to SUVs in the U.S. is driven by consumers caring less about traditional car value metrics such as performance. The cause of this was exactly the opposite -- the CAFE rules classify SUVs as trucks and allow them to fall into a less stringent fuel economy standard. The result allows SUVs to be mass-market gasoline-powered large vehicles with powerful engines, which is no longer possible for things classified as cars. That factor is primarily what caused (big-engined) SUVs to replace station wagons and large performace sedans in the market, and the small car market is as strong as it ever was. He also calls Ives a visionary more than once, but that was Jobs. Apple has done well under Ives because of his management ability, not his ability to develop new product markets as Jobs did. Project Titan is a huge gamble. They're essentially trying to buy their way into a market where their competitors have a head start. Apple has the cash to potentially succeed doing that, but they could also spend billions and have it come to nothing, and it's not clear what they're adding that Waymo or Telsa or Uber doesn't already have. It seems to be some combination of "Google is doing it" and the fact that Steve Jobs saw that Telsa was onto something -- but there has been ten years of progress between then and now. And the speculation that Apple will focus on personalization is odd. Their model is walled-garden, curation, single USB port on the MacBook, everything soldered and nothing modular, any color you want as long as it's black. If anything vehicle personalization is going to become less prevalant with autonomous vehicles as it makes it easier to share vehicles if they can show up at the location of whichever part-owner needs it at a given time, or be leased out for ride sharing when not in use.

Zanni 8y ago
The iPhone doesn't stand out as customizable because, compared to its current competition, it's not. But it's massively more customizable than what was on the market before, thanks to the app store. Yes, it's software-based customization, but the hardware is so strong that that's still huge. Again, if you compare to Android, the options seem limited ... now. But compare to the then current state of the art, where you could install custom software, if you could find it, but few people actually did. Apple enabled a staggering degree of customization that we take for granted now. I don't think Apple's going to create modular cars where you can swap out hardware or that just come in a variety of form factors. If they create customizable cars (if they get into the car biz at all), it'll be through software. Tesla already hints at some of the possibilities here: on the same hardware platform you can upgrade your autopilot or performance, even your range. (I have a 60D, which has a 75KWh battery. I can order an online software upgrade to a 75D for $2K.) That's just what Tesla already does. I can't imagine what Apple might offer, but the possibilities are intriguing.

smilekzs 8y ago

> Even acquisitions that included consumer-facing products like Beats, Beddit, and Shazam (pending approval) were ultimately about the technology behind the products. I doubt the Beats acquisition is about the technology behind their headphones, especially with their questionable acoustics engineering [1]. The music service sounds more plausible, but then it wouldn't be about technology either. [1]: https://www.designnews.com/gadget-freak/beats-dre-teardown-weak-engineering-meets-strong-marketing/113333861745594 https://www.designnews.com/gadget-freak/beats-dre-teardown-w...

jacques_chester 8y ago

> Accordingly, some have concluded that Apple should acquire Tesla as a way of quickly jumping into the transportation industry. I produce salty remarks. McDonald's produces salty food. Therefore McDonald's should buy me out as a way of quickly jumping into the HN snark industry.

Phlarp 8y ago
To be fair, if McDonald's did want to move into the HN snark space, buying out existing contributors would be an effective way to go about doing it.
- jacques_chester 8y ago
  I will stand by for the screenshot of my smiling mug on Our Incredible Journey.

newnewpdro 8y ago

> Even acquisitions that included consumer-facing products like Beats, Beddit, and Shazam (pending approval) were ultimately about the technology behind the products. Err, Beats? Their technology was shit, Apple bought a millenial brand.

squarefoot 8y ago
Yup. I wouldn't give up my three K141s for a truck loaded with Beats phones, but try asking to any teen out there.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  I remember someone tearing down fake beats and finding more expensive drivers in them than in the original thing beats are garbage.
MBCook 8y ago
Beats was purchased for the excellent music service and people. The headphone brand was a nice to have, premium image and all. Apple didn’t need people to tell them how to make headphones, they were already capable of that.

mothsonasloth 8y ago

I have been given a job offer with a car company to work in their research division in which they plan to develop more electric vehicles to take on Tesla. I am still on the fence but the job sounds interesting, its just that its a big corporate and I am skeptical they will be able to take on Tesla's monopoly on electric vehicles.

tomjakubowski 8y ago
In January, Nissan passed the 300,000 unit mark for deliveries of the Leaf worldwide. Tesla reached 300,000 deliveries across all models a month later. No one has a monopoly on electric vehicles.
- mothsonasloth 8y ago
  Ok I think I'll take the job then
  - user5994461 8y ago
    You should go for it. Don't bother to think about Tesla, it's a small company that doesn't even have a presence outside the US. They just enjoy nice news because the David vs Goliath archetype sells in media. Any major manufacturer can roll out an equivalent car globally anytime and get in front of a Tesla in a heartbeat. I bet your new company will give you anything you need to do just that.
protomyth 8y ago
> they will be able to take on Tesla's monopoly on electric vehicles How is that statement supported by sales data?
- Tade0 8y ago
  Tesla delivered a total of ~23 175 cars in August in the US. For comparison BMW delivered 23 789. And that's only because the former is supply-constrained.

0x8BADF00D 8y ago

I have a feeling that: a) Elon is having a mental breakdown b) Titan will die because of design by committee

briandear 8y ago
Nothing is designed by committee at Apple. That isn’t how they work.
- MBCook 8y ago
  Which, ironically, seems to be one of the big issues now with many of their products. Division going into them seems to be a little too singular.
- xedeon 8y ago
  I know Steve talked alot about not having committees at Apple. I wonder if that is still the case today.
_louisr_ 8y ago
If Elon avoided a mental breakdown in 2008, he certainly won't get one now.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  Once a human has avoided having a cognitive overload, it's impossible for them to suffer another in the future.
  - _louisr_ 8y ago
    Correct

madengr 8y ago

Apple has run out of steam. What do we have to look forward too; the iPhone 20?

daeken 8y ago
A trillion dollar market cap can support the production of a hell of a lot of steam. I can't stand Apple's products of the last ~7 years, but I wouldn't bet against them in nearly any regard. They have the resources to weather any storm.
- madengr 8y ago
  I should have said innovation. At this point they are more like a utility company.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    I’m not sure if you’re trolling. Have a scroll through this article and say that again; https://www.bloomberg.com/features/apple-iphone-guts/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/apple-iphone-guts/ There’s certainly a dearth of groundbreaking category defining new products, but you have to be blind to what is actually going into the intervals of each successive iPhone model to claim there’s no innovation happening. Personally I think the level of expertise, technology, and craftsmanship which has gone into the iPhone line is astounding. They have absolutely mastered the form factor to the point where you take it completely for granted.
    - jimmaswell 8y ago
      Who could ignore such innovation as the removal of the headphone jack?
      - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
        Do you also pine for your missing floppy drive? I’ve used wired headphones maybe twice in the 18 months since I got my AirPods. In ten years almost no phones will have analog audio jacks and (almost) no one will care.

Camillo 8y ago

I don't understand what they mean when they say that "personalization" is the most important thing for customers when buying cars.

nutjob2 8y ago

Why do people insist on using the word "poach" when referring to people who were offered and accepted a new and usually better job or pay by a competing firm? It gives a negative connotation to a happy event for someone.

taneq 8y ago
You answered your own question. It's used to recast the employee as property of their employer, and the act of offering them another job as dishonourable.
- granshaw 8y ago
  The deck is already so stacked against workers - we shouldn’t be perpetuating these terms

bodas 8y ago

> This lack of fresh perspective in automobile design is one factor likely fueling the growing interest in bikes and scooters in high density areas Cars suffer from a tragedy of the commons, even if you have the best Apple iCar in the world with self-driving, you will still get stuck in traffic because of all the people who don't. If Apple wants to improve the experience of cars they need to start a political party because that is a local governance problem not a design problem.

Animats 8y ago

Financially, it doesn't make sense. Getting into the car business would pull down Apple's stock. Apple is in a high-margin business. Autos are a low-margin business. When a high-margin company buys a low-margin one, the return on investment declines. That's the reason Apple can't acquire other large companies. Few companies have Apple's margins. Most acquisitions would drag them down. Even if they're profitable.

IkmoIkmo 8y ago
In a world where Apple chooses to invest scarce cash in A or B, with B being low-margin, and then choosing B. Not in a world where Apple's cash isn't so scarce that it has to choose either, but can choose both. The real question is, do investments in the car space get it a better return than whatever the return they had on their cash, which was likely quite small, too, and with no upside.
- deafcalculus 8y ago
  Apple can always use that cash to buy back its stock. Spending it on Tesla has to get better returns than buying back itself for it to be worthwhile.

mulcahey 8y ago

Once cars are shared and autonomous they're going to be like riding a private bus, plane or train (or an Uber without a driver). You'll be staring at your phone/laptop/iPad for the whole ride and will not be personalizing anything but the sound playing over the speakers. An Apple Care would be as if Apple wanted to get into the house market. HomeKit+devices, Apple TV, HomePod etc. are analogous to what Apple could achieve in the car space. I can't see them releasing anything better than a fully autonomous Tesla that allows you to AirPlay to the center screen. It almost saddens me to see them poaching talent from Tesla when Tesla has so much momentum right now. I don't see Apple achieving anything Tesla won't in the long term. Instead, they're just going to delay how long it takes Tesla to get there.

skookumchuck 8y ago

I never thought I'd miss station wagons. Even classic car collectors/restorers avoid them.

beloch 8y ago

Performance... Style... Price... Reliability. Reliability is not just a part of performance. When it comes to cars, reliability is its own category and it's every bit as important as the others. How many cars are great performers but are rendered impractical by their lack of reliability? For many people, reliability trumps all other considerations. Personally, I'll pay extra and put up with a slower, clunkier vehicle if just works. Apple no longer produces particularly reliable software or hardware. Tesla is having problems doing that themselves. The marriage of the two? It would take a lot to make me trust a vehicle made by these two companies in partnership. If anything, Apple needs to acquire or partner with a proven auto company with a track-record of producing reliable designs. Quite frankly, Tesla would benefit from doing the same. Their vehicles are exciting in terms of their performance, but the reliability just isn't there yet.

stephengillie 8y ago
> * Personally, I'll pay extra and put up with a slower, clunkier vehicle if just works.* Toyota Camry is the car with the track record for reliability.