16 ms·

Progress update from the Librem 5 hardware department

311 points by fosco 8y ago

fosco 8y ago
Additional details of launch at [0]. Details on hardware report at (as of today)[1]. [0] https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ [1] https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-2018-09-hardware-report/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-2018-09-hardware-report/
craftyguy 8y ago
I hope Purism takes as long as necessary to get the Librem 5 right. The last thing the world needs is another rushed phone design..
pergadad 8y ago
A very laudable effort and hopefully it goes well. But to be clear, the first ethical smartphone is Fairphone. I don't see how exactly this one could get even close to trying to be ethical in the way Fairphone does, but it might just be me having a different understanding of 'fair'.
- msla 8y ago
  > But to be clear, the first ethical smartphone is Fairphone. Ethical products don't spy on users. Fairphone uses Android, so it isn't entirely ethical.
  - simcop2387 8y ago
    I this is due to the overloading of the word ethical. The librem phone behaves ethically, but the Fairphone is ethically sourced (based on comments here). It'd be really neat to have something that's both ethical in behavior and ethically sourced for the parts.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    > Ethical products don't spy on users. Fairphone uses Android, so it isn't entirely ethical. Because customers want Google. The bootloader is unlocked. If you want to install Fairphone Open then you can. That's an Android version sans Google/OpenGapps. [1] If you want, you can also install different firmware. Examples: LineageOS (with or without OpenGapps), LineageOS + microG, SailfishOS, UBTouch. [1] https://code.fairphone.com/projects/fp-osos/index.html https://code.fairphone.com/projects/fp-osos/index.html
    - snaky 8y ago
      Can you add your own key to the bootloader and lock it again staying on your own firmware?
      - Fnoord 8y ago
        AFAIK you cannot. Is that ever possible, on any unlocked bootloader? FWIW, the SoC is a SD801.
        culot 8y ago
        I wonder if it would be possible to implement that feature on an Android device that allowed you to flash your own custom appsboot/lk? I've only spent a little bit of time in LK stuff, but it seemed to me that that was where that functionality lives. From leaked LG LK code it shows that's definitely where their bootloader unlock keys lived [at one point a couple of years ago]. Since the Librem device is a different beast, though, I wonder what their bootstack looks like? Super curious now!
- ethbro 8y ago
  Depends if we're talking about ethical atoms or bits. Don't want to support conflict mining, but are okay with Android on a Qualcomm SoC = Fairphone Don't want to run a non-free OS or integrated baseband, but are okay with manufacturing in Shenzhen = Purism Librem
  - slg 8y ago
    This seems to be a mirror of the old language debate in open source. So the Librem 5 is ethical as in speech and not ethical as in beer. "Ethical" being a philosophical designation here rather than a physical designation.
    - acct1771 8y ago
      Ethical in technology freedom, not ethical in labor standards.
- conatus 8y ago
  And I really really hope this is better than the Fairphone 2 in terms of function. I bought one very much excited by the prospect but to be frank it was the worst phone qua phone I've ever owned with basic functionality continuously breaking. A massive shame because the cleared up supply chain was something I really wanted to work out.
  - qmarchi 8y ago
    As I see it, Purisim has been doing OS pieces for their laptops, whereas Fairphone was starting from scratch.
- bubblethink 8y ago
  Well fairphone was even more of a gimmick than this one. Other than word fair, it was equally useless as all other phones due to the usual planned obsolescence and lack of software. This one, assuming it ships, will at least be serviceable if they get a mainline stack running without too many blobs. That doesn't make it practical or attractive, but at least you won't be forced to chuck it in the bin after a couple of years due to lack of software.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Which Fairphone? The original or Fairphone 2? Mistakes were made with the original Fairphone. The SoC couldn't be updated to a newer kernel version and the binary blobs meant they couldn't get any update past Android 4.x. Which sucks if you bought that smartphone, but doesn't mean the company did not learn from that mistake. Also, replacement parts weren't available either because the company couldn't source them in great amounts due to lack of funds. Some replacement parts required components which weren't made anymore. They had some initial problems with this in the release after FP2 but they tackled these.
- msla 8y ago
  Fairphone is only ethical if you buy into the marketing about the minerals being ethically sourced. Which you shouldn't, for obvious reasons.
danharaj 8y ago
So, when it is said that it is ethical, does that extend to labor conditions in Purism's upstream supply chain? I would buy such a phone for its more robust privacy, but I wouldn't call it ethical if it was produced with conflict minerals and virtual slave labor. Not that you can really escape those realities the way things currently are.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  It seems like it will be made in China, so I'm not certain it gets a checkmark for "no virtual slave labor". I could be wrong I guess.
- confounded 8y ago
  I agree with you, but having a user-replaceable battery is the single-best thing for the questionable-labor-per-device-lifetime ratio. If there was a phone made in the USA by unionized FTEs I’d buy 20, but I’m not sure that the factories even exist in 2018. ‘Assembled’ maybe. Their laptops are assembled in South San Francisco.
j0e1 8y ago
Would PureOS support Android APKs? I think that is something I'd need to consider before making a leap.
- dman 8y ago
  I hope they dont go that way. The amount of engineering effort required to do that would be immense and it would be a constant game of playing catch up to android to ensure that all APKs work. Disclaimer: Views expressed here are my own and do not have anything to do with my employer.
  - simcop2387 8y ago
    The way I'd do it, is support the kernel extensions needed (or some wrapper) for the android specific stuff and leave it to the community to start actually making things work. There's a lot of research and work already done out in the android community to strip off a lot of the google play stuff from android and leave you with a functional device. I suspect that a lot of that would make the job easier on the software side. The API side (display, sound, etc.) will probably be a lot more difficult but it has been done in the past. Google's done this with ARC Welder and running some APKs in Chrome. Not sure if it's open sourced or not but if it is then it'd probably handle a good part of the work.
    - dman 8y ago
      Amount of engineering effort involved here would be immense and its unclear if a startup could achieve this and keep up with the developer/ecosystem velocity of Android. Disclaimer: Views expressed here are my own and do not have anything to do with my employer.
  - amiga-workbench 8y ago
    Having an Android Emulator is a death knell for any mobile OS. It all but killed native application development for BBOS and Sailfish.
- subway 8y ago
tptacek 8y ago
If they were "entirely" ethical (which is a silly concept but it's already been deployed on this thread so I'll run with it), they'd be more up-front about the features and limitations of their security model. So: * Modern phones (and all the flagship phones) have had separation between their basebands and APs for years; a modern smartphone baseband is essentially a USB peripheral. * The two largest smartphone vendors have large, world-class security teams that do things like audit their basebands. Has Purism? * A modern flagship smartphone will have some kind of secure enclave. Apple's has dedicated silicon, and an encrypted memory bus linking it to the AP. How does Purism's hardware security model compare? * I don't know how much Apple and Google spend annually on outside security research for their flagship phones, but it's a lot. Who has Purism engaged to evaluate their designs and spot flaws? If you want to use a niche phone as a fashion or political statement, more power to you. But if you try to market that phone as "transparent code is the core of secure systems", I'll take issue with that; it's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for security. This phone may very well be more "fair" or "ethical" than an iPhone. But if it's not as secure as an iPhone, it's unethical to claim otherwise.
- drb91 8y ago
  > But if it's not as secure as an iPhone, it's unethical to claim otherwise. This seems silly, you can easily flip this on its head and say "Well the iPhone is closed, so there's no way to verify it has any security". You can't separate the ethics of security advertising from the ethics of everything else about how the device works.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - JoshCole 8y ago
    You shouldn't flip things around, because there is observable evidence beyond source code. Not knowing everything about the world doesn't mean we know nothing.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
leowoo91 8y ago
Why nobody can bring a hit marketing idea instead of getting stuck into a better product design trap?
- yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
  Feel free. I await your Show HN.
  - leowoo91 8y ago
    Thanks! It might take a while but I hope someday.
- emXdem 8y ago
  Last time I tried to order a purism... I waited for 4 months and then took about a few weeks and multiple payments for a refund. Have they worked out their supply chain issues yet?
  - stamps 8y ago
    Ordered a base librem 13 v2 model a few months ago. Payment was processed immediately and it shipped within a week. Did some upgrades, 1TB NVMe, 2TB SSD, and 16GB of RAM. Also do not use PureOS. Very happy.
RileyJames 8y ago
This is very interesting. I couldn’t find any details regarding the hardware for the initial device, I assume this is because it still in production. Is there a ball park we can expect? I love the idea of an open source phone which could be used as a phone & laptop replacement. Even if I’m still likely to carry an iPhone as well (but probably as a wifi only device if PureOS can a handle my phone needs).
- boojums 8y ago
  The article mentions they will use NXP's i.MX 8M which has 4 ARM A53's [0]. That would make it similar to Qualcomm's Snapdragon 410 as far as having 4x A53's, but the process and clock speeds could be different. [0] https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-based-processors-and-mcus/i.mx-applications-processors/i.mx-8-processors:IMX8-SERIES https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers...
dang 8y ago
Url changed from https://puri.sm/posts/2018-09-librem5-hardware-roadmap-announcement/ https://puri.sm/posts/2018-09-librem5-hardware-roadmap-annou..., which points to this post, which has more details.
keithnz 8y ago
how is it ethical? surely if it was ethical it would be spelled out what its ethics are and how it guarentees those ethics are maintained across it's entire business practices including its supply chain? I'd also expect if it is shown that it is not ethical in some way, then the phone isn't ethical, and a full refund would be provided :)
- jancsika 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure they are piggy-backing directly on the FSF's "Respects Your Freedom" certification.
tomcam 8y ago
This kind of moral preening makes me sick. I will probably become a customer, but phrases like "the world’s first ethical" really, really rub me the wrong way. tptacek has covered many of my issues below, but, simply put, it implies that the rest of us who work for telecoms or who choose not to buy the Purism are lesser. "Don't do evil" hit me the same way. I assume Google is well-intentioned, but there are many, many areas in which Google and I have moral disagreement regarding the way they operate. That's fine. Principled people can differ. The same is true with Microsoft and Kroger's and Costco and lots of other brands I deal with. I know for a fact these companies support causes I believe to be immoral. I suspect in turn they disagree with some of the causes I support. But they don't rub my nose in their superiority with smarmy phrases like "don't do evil" this or "first ethical" that. In the case of Purism, a much quicker way to my heart and wallet is say it's completely open for the following reasons. That's enough for me. I don't need your fundamentalist preacher bloviating on top of everything else.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- vertex-four 8y ago
  Purism is a manufacturer that directly buys into the principles of the FSF - that closed-source software is probably the most important ethical issue in computing. You can read about why on the FSF’s website.
nmg 8y ago
Every time I hear about the Librem 5, I get excited about the idea that I could run Debian, or Arch, or another open source OS on a phone. But I can find scant details about how this would be implemented.
- roblabla 8y ago
  Not sure what you mean? It gets implemented by using a touch-friendly Window Manager, touch-friendly apps, with apps for all the phone features you'd expect? It's all open source BTW. Look at https://gitlab.gnome.org/Community/Purism https://gitlab.gnome.org/Community/Purism
  - comesee 8y ago
    Yup, it's roughly the same idea as building a touch friendly website.
- snaky 8y ago
  Don't you consider e.g. LineageOS open source OS?
  - seba_dos1 8y ago
    Most LineageOS distributions aren't exactly "open source" due to hardware driver blobs. Check out Replicant.
    - snaky 8y ago
      Debian or Arch aren't too, in fact. https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.en.html https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.en.html So why the difference?
      - seba_dos1 8y ago
        In Debian or Arch it's very easy not to install them and still have everything functioning properly. It's not the case with LineageOS, where Replicant needed significant effort to work and its hardware compatibility is still poor.
btashton 8y ago
> We went with Redpine Signal as their chipset does not require a firmware download at runtime like other vendors; having a downloadable firmware would violate the Free Software Foundation’s RYF requirements. This really does not resonate with me. In most of these chips there is a functional or partially functional firmware in ROM, then the OS applies a RAM patch to provide full functionality or address functional or security issues. I'm not sure how I would be more free or secure if Broadcom or Intel placed the full firmware in the ROM and never updated it, than if the continued to supply updated firmware blobs. The firmware for these devices historically is riddled with security issues, just recently this CVE affected most of the Intel AC WiFi cards [1] Also Redpine supports firmware blob updates with some versions of their hardware, so I'm not sure if they are just playing word games here by saying it will WORK without extra blobs, but then expect everyone will really still use the blobs to stay up-to-date. [2] [1] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/security-center/advisory/intel-sa-00128.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/security-center/advi... [2] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git/tree/rsi https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/lin...
- abrowne 8y ago
  I believe the FSF position is that non-updatable firmware can be considered "part of the hardware", while updatable firmware cannot. I think they're concerned that updated firmware could change how the device functions in ways you can't control.
  - btashton 8y ago
    Except that I am almost 100% certain [1] that they are using the RS9113 which as I suspected IS updateable (in some cases wirelessly) [2]. In fact in the Linux Firmware tree they have multiple firmware images depending on how you want the device to function. [3] >The host MCU can update the RS9113 module FW over UART using the kermit protocol or over SPI using the proprietary binary protocol. The default UART baud rate is 115200 kbps 8N1 with xon/off or no flow control. For baud rate >900000, hardware flow control must be used. Refer to the WiSeConnect PRM for more info - the "Upgrading the Firmware in Module" section discusses the SPI mode and "Firmware Upgradation" section discusses the UART mode. [1] https://source.puri.sm/bob.ham/image-builder/commit/856c9caf647aca14edfb125fb86b94ddb1240287 https://source.puri.sm/bob.ham/image-builder/commit/856c9caf... [2] http://www.redpinesignals.com/faqs.php http://www.redpinesignals.com/faqs.php [3] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git/commit/rsi?id=c1aa76a28c8031f747f6589e9b0f5aca8924a5e7 https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/lin...
jancsika 8y ago
> The cellular modem is arguably the most complex part of a mobile phone. Ok, so in the dev kit/final product will there be a physical switch to turn it off? Or at least a CLI command? Possibly a GUI with a big toggle labeled "Turn off the insanely complex unauditable OS that I must run to live in the 21st century because patents"?
- daurnimator 8y ago
  I would assume/hope that the "airplane mode" would do such a thing...
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Yes, but the idea is that airplane mode can be faked in such a way by software that you cannot be sure its entirely off (remember Android still scanning WLAN/Bluetooth even whilst it was off?). With a hardware kill switch, you have more assurance it is off. With tinfoil, yet even more.
    - jancsika 8y ago
      Tinfoil manifests a much worse UX than the kill switch. The foil is physically separate from the phone and can easily get misplaced or torn such that the phone is no longer able to be secured. Moreover, the user can be so physically exhausted that they neglect to retrieve the foil from their fanny pack and properly wrap the phone (not to mention checking for any areas where holes might let the signal escape which takes extra time). It is at least an order of magnitude quicker for the user to toggle a kill switch that resides at all times on the phone. Negligence due to physical exhaustion is thus eliminated-- as long as the user can physically access the phone they have sufficient energy to click the kill switch. And as long as the user is able to reach the phone they can access the kill switch, which isn't necessarily true for the tin foil. Additionally, there are a variety of social engineering attacks that can cause a user to become reluctant to wrap their phone in tinfoil, reluctant retrieve the foil, and even reluctant carry their fanny pack with them. None of those attacks exist for clicking a toggle, especially one designed as an elegant part of the phone's facade (which itself may go unnoticed by the would-be attacker). Finally, toggling an unobtrusive switch on one's phone doesn't invite onlookers to come over and start discussing unwanted topics like PGP keysigning parties, onion sites, and how the average life span would have increased by 20 years if everyone were still using Gopher.
grizzles 8y ago
> we foresee a delay in production until April 2019. This is the only bit I read, the rest was blah blah. The first entirely predictable delay of many, if I might add. They are on a long road to "Sorry we tried, here are some discount coupons for purism laptops". Well, it won't be that long really, unless a badly needed funding angel swoops in. Their delusion is in some sense laudable, as any startup should believe it's own bullshit. But when you know better than they do about their chances, it's still hard to watch folks put themselves through this.
- lsh 8y ago
  So cynical! I don't blame you, but being a cynical and pessimistic spectator is easy. Instead of slinging shit you might indulge us with just how you know better. Is it from watching many failures from the sidelines?
  - grizzles 8y ago
    They are wildly undercapitalized for what they are trying to do. They asked me to invest, I said no. It will be tough for them to find investors, the phone industry is a ruthlessly competitive market. The CEO is very headstrong. That's great when you are an expert in hardware projects, but he's not. In my opinion, they are trying to do too many things, and aren't learning from their mistakes or listening to the advice of others. The best thing they could do right now to maximize their chances would be to lay off their software team and focus entirely on the hardware. Let the community supply that part of it.
    - megous 8y ago
      I'd like them to do that too. It's a chicken/egg/bootstrapping problem. You don't get a community of developers without HW, and you don't get a useful HW running OSS OS/userspace without the community. OTOH, I think they'll have trouble attracting that much of a community to sustain the project if they just throw out such an expensive initially useless hardware out there. But at least people will have something to play with. Better than promisses and sorrys.
shmerl 8y ago
I still don't get it, why they didn't pick Plasma Mobile as their primary UX.
- comesee 8y ago
  Does it matter? If it's open, someone can create a plasma mobile distro.
  - shmerl 8y ago
    It matters for resources focus IMHO.
- amiga-workbench 8y ago
  A shell that looks like it was built by blind people is probably a hard sell for an "open" phone which many will already believe to be lacking in polish.
alain94040 8y ago
[random idea] Rather than worry endlessly about SOCs and radios not being open enough, why not build a protocol on top of blackbox components that eliminates, through some kind of encryption, the need for openness? To push the argument to the extreme, even if you find a radio component that matches your requirement of free, it's still going to talk to a radio tower that you don't control, running a software stack that you don't approve. This problem never ends, unless you imagine some end-to-end channel that you control, and then you don't care about the lower layer's lack of openness. Does that make any sense?
- comesee 8y ago
  I agree with you, but the issue here is that in traditional phone architectures, the baseband processor could interrupt and monitor the execution of the main CPU (for efficiency purposes). So theoretically you couldn't be certain that your plaintext wasn't being exfiltrated. With a separate baseband, it's a lot harder (but possible) for a blackbox CPU to exfiltrate your info.
- ufo 8y ago
  The problem with the proprietary components is that it makes it very difficult for third party developers to install their own versions of the operating system. The complex system of mandatory proprietary firmware is the reason why the custom ROM ecosststem is so fragmented and unreliable.
andmarios 8y ago
Not directly related, but sometimes I do wonder how free software can compete with the services of the behemoths (maps, assistants, etc). So the other day I hit this article [1] on planet.kde.org about KDE Itinerary, an application that can store your boarding passes and offer some additional services, such as calendar integration or notifications in case your destination has a different socket type, they drive on the left side, etc. It seemed quite useful and some parts are novel. Maybe there is a future for phones with just free software. [1] https://www.volkerkrause.eu/2018/08/25/kde-itinerary-overview.html https://www.volkerkrause.eu/2018/08/25/kde-itinerary-overvie...
- cmsimike 8y ago
  As long as you can run your own software, you can build what you want. Not to say it will have the polish current solutions offer, but I don't want current solutions. I want mine. There was an article recently here about someone using a RasPi (with golang) to build a custom GPS mapping solution. I've been doing something similar (though using raspi connecting to my head unit via composite video) as well as pulling sensor info from ODBII and currently looking into CanBus.
- tfha 8y ago
  Money is a big part of it. We still don't have a good way to monetize open source applications.
- hegz 8y ago
  I have been using only open source apps for the last year. For basic stuff like podcast streaming and IM the Foss stuff is better than the proprietary stuff. For complex things like maps and assistants its like taking a step 5 years back in the past. OSM and is no where near as good as google maps at most things but its still perfectly usable. The average person probably won't be happy with a purely foss phone right now but if its something you care about then it can be done fairly easily.
  - fosco 8y ago
    what podcast streamer do you use? looking for alternative.
bubblethink 8y ago
I wish they would do more practical engineering work on the only real product that they do have, which is the laptop. I visit their forum from time to time, and there are multiple long standing posts with multiple people facing problems due to battery drain, fan issues, suspend/resume, freezes etc. All this grandstanding is useless if the product fails basic usability criteria.
cmsimike 8y ago
Looks like an HDMI mini is confirmed, which means time to build my own in-car librem-based infotainment center, starring Kodi and Home Assistant!
bo1024 8y ago
Lots of criticism here focusing on use of the word ethical. I don't care to argue semantics, I'm just really excited for this phone!
- 3131s 8y ago
  I thought that was odd too. There is one instance of the word "ethical" in an otherwise technical article and it's hardly egregious compared to the marketing speech of nearly big tech company: > We will continue to evolve as we understand better how this subset of the industry works. The success of our phone is critical, as it will provide us with the legitimacy and leverage we need to bend hardware suppliers to our way of thinking by showing them that we have the potential to be market leaders with ethical products that respect users.
  - confounded 8y ago
    See dang’s comment way down. The link was originally to a very self-congratulatory press release from the marketing person, and later changed to a blog post with details and exposition from the CTO. Purism’s style in press releases is pretty annoying, but I really appreciate the blog posts. I backed the phone. I’ve backed most GNU+Linux replacements for my iDevices. If it half-works it will have wildly exceeded my expectations! I wish them the very best.
    - bo1024 8y ago
      Thanks, that explains a lot. Sometimes HN's moderation style of changing links causes this kind of confusion.
matheusmoreira 8y ago
They seem to be focusing a lot on phones nowadays. What about the laptops? No progress on that?
megous 8y ago
Other than the physical switches (which sounds not all that interesting, since if I'll be in control of the software/OS, I can trust the GPIOs controlling some MOSFETs switches pretty much the same), this phone can only really differentiate itself by being very friendly to the FOSS developers/enthusiasts crowd. A phone where you could get creative and manipulate every aspect of it without the artificial [security/functionality/SDK] limitations imposed on apps you can write for Android or that other comapny's phone OS I don't like even more. A phone that will not get planned obsolescence. A phone with OS that can be managed just like any other linux distro, where you can write apps in any of the readily available languages, etc. Failing this, it's just overpriced wannabe Android clone.
- onefish 8y ago
  I'm with you there in not really buying into the whole security, trust, and ethics story line which mostly seems to be appealing to a bandwagon of sentiments around corporate and government spying. Unfortunately, these sentiments are probably the only reason otherwise-average people - the kind of people who don't care about recompiling the kernel for their phone, on their phone, or jiggling GPIOs to remove power from subsystems - would probably buy anything other than an Android or Apple phone. Without this both comparatively large in one respect (with respect to the set of all reasonably tech-savvy people) but comparatively minuscule in another (with respect to the set of all smartphone consumers) set of people, you're going to end up with another OpenMoko Freerunner type situation where the only people using it are the frankly ultra-fringe types like us who care more about having a pocket computer that behaves like, well, an actual computer should and are frustrated with the creative limitations of SDK-based lock-in. I sometimes wonder how much Purism actually cares about all this security, trust, ethics rhetoric and how much of it is a bunch of geeks who just want to finally have a smartphone which can run an actual Linux distribution and figured "hey, consumers are pretty riled-up about this whole government spying thing - and it's pretty easy to audit open source software for that sort of stuff - maybe we can work an angle..."
  - megous 8y ago
    > Unfortunately, these sentiments are probably the only reason otherwise-average people - the kind of people who don't care about recompiling the kernel for their phone, on their phone, I guess that's true, but these people probably will not be the driving force of the community around the phone. They'll be helping sustain the vendor financially, which is also valuable though. I already have a mobile device to play with with a similar design to this phone, that has a separate 3G modem and can also be made to make calls. It's a bulkier 7" tablet. It will never get an opensource GPU driver, and suspend to ram is also out of the question for now. But it's fun to play with and explore. Recently, I had fun with adding touch UI support for u-boot, to implement a boot menu and some battery indicator: https://megous.com/dl/u-boot.mp4 https://megous.com/dl/u-boot.mp4 Also if you drop the typical Linux userspace, and replace systemd with a custom init binary, create a DRI based UI app it's possible to get cold boot times to useable GUI in 1-2 seconds from pressing a button. So I'm excited for what will be possible to do if the hardware of that phone ever materializes.
adiusmus 8y ago
Looks good in principle. It meets a lot of my requirements. I’m not sure what ethical means when a corporation says it. Purism at least state what they mean and how they apply it. What I’m looking for in a mobile phone: Good screen. iPhone X quality. 4gb ram. 16gb main storage. Headphone jack nice but not required. Linux OS. (Android is ok) Ability to write my own apps for custom accessories. Some kind of AppStore. (Debian apt repo is ok) Secure Enclave. Cellular is not directly on main system bus. Accelerated graphics. Decent sound. Fast enough to play video with background tasks. Removeable battery. Repairable.
- vertex-four 8y ago
  Sounds like you’re looking for the Pixel.
  - culot 8y ago
    The Pixels don't have removable batteries, and certainly are repair-unfriendly. Too bad LG quit doing removable batteries, their phones with that design were relatively repair-friendly.
    - adiusmus 8y ago
      I think I’ll wait another 12 months. The pixel / current iPhones don’t excite me yet.
wodenokoto 8y ago
Does anyone know how the camera stacks up against, maybe not iPhone X, but at least 6 or 7?
- snaky 8y ago
  You can switch it off. https://puri.sm/posts/hard-not-soft-kill-switches/ https://puri.sm/posts/hard-not-soft-kill-switches/
  - fishmeat 8y ago
    This.
  - wodenokoto 8y ago
    Haha, okay. I'll try again: How do they compare when explicitly turned on?
krn 8y ago
I am totally fine with PCs, which allow me to install any OS I prefer. And I am totally fine with smartphones, which allow me to flash any ROM I prefer. This way I get both, secure hardware and private software.
phobosdeimos 8y ago
Cheap Chinaphone: €300 DNS66 and Yalp store so that nobody gets payed: priceless There are easier ways to frustrate the tech industry. Oh and if you live in the US mobile networks will still sell you out no matter what brand your phone is. They all have to connect to cell towers.
- snaky 8y ago
  > Over 40 models of low-cost Android smartphones are sold already infected with the Triada banking trojan, says Dr.Web
tarboreus 8y ago
I don't see anything on their sites about accessibility features. An ethical FLOSS phone is an awesome idea, but I'm concerned that if they don't think about accessibility at all in making it then it will be hard or impossible to add those features in after the fact.

311 points by fosco 8y ago

Additional details of launch at [0]. Details on hardware report at (as of today)[1]. [0] https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ [1] https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-2018-09-hardware-report/ https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-2018-09-hardware-report/

craftyguy 8y ago

I hope Purism takes as long as necessary to get the Librem 5 right. The last thing the world needs is another rushed phone design..

pergadad 8y ago

A very laudable effort and hopefully it goes well. But to be clear, the first ethical smartphone is Fairphone. I don't see how exactly this one could get even close to trying to be ethical in the way Fairphone does, but it might just be me having a different understanding of 'fair'.

msla 8y ago
> But to be clear, the first ethical smartphone is Fairphone. Ethical products don't spy on users. Fairphone uses Android, so it isn't entirely ethical.
- simcop2387 8y ago
  I this is due to the overloading of the word ethical. The librem phone behaves ethically, but the Fairphone is ethically sourced (based on comments here). It'd be really neat to have something that's both ethical in behavior and ethically sourced for the parts.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  > Ethical products don't spy on users. Fairphone uses Android, so it isn't entirely ethical. Because customers want Google. The bootloader is unlocked. If you want to install Fairphone Open then you can. That's an Android version sans Google/OpenGapps. [1] If you want, you can also install different firmware. Examples: LineageOS (with or without OpenGapps), LineageOS + microG, SailfishOS, UBTouch. [1] https://code.fairphone.com/projects/fp-osos/index.html https://code.fairphone.com/projects/fp-osos/index.html
  - snaky 8y ago
    Can you add your own key to the bootloader and lock it again staying on your own firmware?
    - Fnoord 8y ago
      AFAIK you cannot. Is that ever possible, on any unlocked bootloader? FWIW, the SoC is a SD801.
      - culot 8y ago
        I wonder if it would be possible to implement that feature on an Android device that allowed you to flash your own custom appsboot/lk? I've only spent a little bit of time in LK stuff, but it seemed to me that that was where that functionality lives. From leaked LG LK code it shows that's definitely where their bootloader unlock keys lived [at one point a couple of years ago]. Since the Librem device is a different beast, though, I wonder what their bootstack looks like? Super curious now!
ethbro 8y ago
Depends if we're talking about ethical atoms or bits. Don't want to support conflict mining, but are okay with Android on a Qualcomm SoC = Fairphone Don't want to run a non-free OS or integrated baseband, but are okay with manufacturing in Shenzhen = Purism Librem
- slg 8y ago
  This seems to be a mirror of the old language debate in open source. So the Librem 5 is ethical as in speech and not ethical as in beer. "Ethical" being a philosophical designation here rather than a physical designation.
  - acct1771 8y ago
    Ethical in technology freedom, not ethical in labor standards.
conatus 8y ago
And I really really hope this is better than the Fairphone 2 in terms of function. I bought one very much excited by the prospect but to be frank it was the worst phone qua phone I've ever owned with basic functionality continuously breaking. A massive shame because the cleared up supply chain was something I really wanted to work out.
- qmarchi 8y ago
  As I see it, Purisim has been doing OS pieces for their laptops, whereas Fairphone was starting from scratch.
bubblethink 8y ago
Well fairphone was even more of a gimmick than this one. Other than word fair, it was equally useless as all other phones due to the usual planned obsolescence and lack of software. This one, assuming it ships, will at least be serviceable if they get a mainline stack running without too many blobs. That doesn't make it practical or attractive, but at least you won't be forced to chuck it in the bin after a couple of years due to lack of software.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Which Fairphone? The original or Fairphone 2? Mistakes were made with the original Fairphone. The SoC couldn't be updated to a newer kernel version and the binary blobs meant they couldn't get any update past Android 4.x. Which sucks if you bought that smartphone, but doesn't mean the company did not learn from that mistake. Also, replacement parts weren't available either because the company couldn't source them in great amounts due to lack of funds. Some replacement parts required components which weren't made anymore. They had some initial problems with this in the release after FP2 but they tackled these.
msla 8y ago
Fairphone is only ethical if you buy into the marketing about the minerals being ethically sourced. Which you shouldn't, for obvious reasons.

danharaj 8y ago

So, when it is said that it is ethical, does that extend to labor conditions in Purism's upstream supply chain? I would buy such a phone for its more robust privacy, but I wouldn't call it ethical if it was produced with conflict minerals and virtual slave labor. Not that you can really escape those realities the way things currently are.

craftyguy 8y ago
It seems like it will be made in China, so I'm not certain it gets a checkmark for "no virtual slave labor". I could be wrong I guess.
confounded 8y ago
I agree with you, but having a user-replaceable battery is the single-best thing for the questionable-labor-per-device-lifetime ratio. If there was a phone made in the USA by unionized FTEs I’d buy 20, but I’m not sure that the factories even exist in 2018. ‘Assembled’ maybe. Their laptops are assembled in South San Francisco.

j0e1 8y ago

Would PureOS support Android APKs? I think that is something I'd need to consider before making a leap.

dman 8y ago
I hope they dont go that way. The amount of engineering effort required to do that would be immense and it would be a constant game of playing catch up to android to ensure that all APKs work. Disclaimer: Views expressed here are my own and do not have anything to do with my employer.
- simcop2387 8y ago
  The way I'd do it, is support the kernel extensions needed (or some wrapper) for the android specific stuff and leave it to the community to start actually making things work. There's a lot of research and work already done out in the android community to strip off a lot of the google play stuff from android and leave you with a functional device. I suspect that a lot of that would make the job easier on the software side. The API side (display, sound, etc.) will probably be a lot more difficult but it has been done in the past. Google's done this with ARC Welder and running some APKs in Chrome. Not sure if it's open sourced or not but if it is then it'd probably handle a good part of the work.
  - dman 8y ago
    Amount of engineering effort involved here would be immense and its unclear if a startup could achieve this and keep up with the developer/ecosystem velocity of Android. Disclaimer: Views expressed here are my own and do not have anything to do with my employer.
- amiga-workbench 8y ago
  Having an Android Emulator is a death knell for any mobile OS. It all but killed native application development for BBOS and Sailfish.
subway 8y ago

tptacek 8y ago

If they were "entirely" ethical (which is a silly concept but it's already been deployed on this thread so I'll run with it), they'd be more up-front about the features and limitations of their security model. So: * Modern phones (and all the flagship phones) have had separation between their basebands and APs for years; a modern smartphone baseband is essentially a USB peripheral. * The two largest smartphone vendors have large, world-class security teams that do things like audit their basebands. Has Purism? * A modern flagship smartphone will have some kind of secure enclave. Apple's has dedicated silicon, and an encrypted memory bus linking it to the AP. How does Purism's hardware security model compare? * I don't know how much Apple and Google spend annually on outside security research for their flagship phones, but it's a lot. Who has Purism engaged to evaluate their designs and spot flaws? If you want to use a niche phone as a fashion or political statement, more power to you. But if you try to market that phone as "transparent code is the core of secure systems", I'll take issue with that; it's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for security. This phone may very well be more "fair" or "ethical" than an iPhone. But if it's not as secure as an iPhone, it's unethical to claim otherwise.

drb91 8y ago
> But if it's not as secure as an iPhone, it's unethical to claim otherwise. This seems silly, you can easily flip this on its head and say "Well the iPhone is closed, so there's no way to verify it has any security". You can't separate the ethics of security advertising from the ethics of everything else about how the device works.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- JoshCole 8y ago
  You shouldn't flip things around, because there is observable evidence beyond source code. Not knowing everything about the world doesn't mean we know nothing.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

leowoo91 8y ago

Why nobody can bring a hit marketing idea instead of getting stuck into a better product design trap?

yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
Feel free. I await your Show HN.
- leowoo91 8y ago
  Thanks! It might take a while but I hope someday.
emXdem 8y ago
Last time I tried to order a purism... I waited for 4 months and then took about a few weeks and multiple payments for a refund. Have they worked out their supply chain issues yet?
- stamps 8y ago
  Ordered a base librem 13 v2 model a few months ago. Payment was processed immediately and it shipped within a week. Did some upgrades, 1TB NVMe, 2TB SSD, and 16GB of RAM. Also do not use PureOS. Very happy.

RileyJames 8y ago

This is very interesting. I couldn’t find any details regarding the hardware for the initial device, I assume this is because it still in production. Is there a ball park we can expect? I love the idea of an open source phone which could be used as a phone & laptop replacement. Even if I’m still likely to carry an iPhone as well (but probably as a wifi only device if PureOS can a handle my phone needs).

boojums 8y ago
The article mentions they will use NXP's i.MX 8M which has 4 ARM A53's [0]. That would make it similar to Qualcomm's Snapdragon 410 as far as having 4x A53's, but the process and clock speeds could be different. [0] https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-based-processors-and-mcus/i.mx-applications-processors/i.mx-8-processors:IMX8-SERIES https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers...

dang 8y ago

Url changed from https://puri.sm/posts/2018-09-librem5-hardware-roadmap-announcement/ https://puri.sm/posts/2018-09-librem5-hardware-roadmap-annou..., which points to this post, which has more details.

keithnz 8y ago

how is it ethical? surely if it was ethical it would be spelled out what its ethics are and how it guarentees those ethics are maintained across it's entire business practices including its supply chain? I'd also expect if it is shown that it is not ethical in some way, then the phone isn't ethical, and a full refund would be provided :)

jancsika 8y ago
I'm pretty sure they are piggy-backing directly on the FSF's "Respects Your Freedom" certification.

tomcam 8y ago

This kind of moral preening makes me sick. I will probably become a customer, but phrases like "the world’s first ethical" really, really rub me the wrong way. tptacek has covered many of my issues below, but, simply put, it implies that the rest of us who work for telecoms or who choose not to buy the Purism are lesser. "Don't do evil" hit me the same way. I assume Google is well-intentioned, but there are many, many areas in which Google and I have moral disagreement regarding the way they operate. That's fine. Principled people can differ. The same is true with Microsoft and Kroger's and Costco and lots of other brands I deal with. I know for a fact these companies support causes I believe to be immoral. I suspect in turn they disagree with some of the causes I support. But they don't rub my nose in their superiority with smarmy phrases like "don't do evil" this or "first ethical" that. In the case of Purism, a much quicker way to my heart and wallet is say it's completely open for the following reasons. That's enough for me. I don't need your fundamentalist preacher bloviating on top of everything else.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
vertex-four 8y ago
Purism is a manufacturer that directly buys into the principles of the FSF - that closed-source software is probably the most important ethical issue in computing. You can read about why on the FSF’s website.

nmg 8y ago

Every time I hear about the Librem 5, I get excited about the idea that I could run Debian, or Arch, or another open source OS on a phone. But I can find scant details about how this would be implemented.

roblabla 8y ago
Not sure what you mean? It gets implemented by using a touch-friendly Window Manager, touch-friendly apps, with apps for all the phone features you'd expect? It's all open source BTW. Look at https://gitlab.gnome.org/Community/Purism https://gitlab.gnome.org/Community/Purism
- comesee 8y ago
  Yup, it's roughly the same idea as building a touch friendly website.
snaky 8y ago
Don't you consider e.g. LineageOS open source OS?
- seba_dos1 8y ago
  Most LineageOS distributions aren't exactly "open source" due to hardware driver blobs. Check out Replicant.
  - snaky 8y ago
    Debian or Arch aren't too, in fact. https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.en.html https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.en.html So why the difference?
    - seba_dos1 8y ago
      In Debian or Arch it's very easy not to install them and still have everything functioning properly. It's not the case with LineageOS, where Replicant needed significant effort to work and its hardware compatibility is still poor.

btashton 8y ago

> We went with Redpine Signal as their chipset does not require a firmware download at runtime like other vendors; having a downloadable firmware would violate the Free Software Foundation’s RYF requirements. This really does not resonate with me. In most of these chips there is a functional or partially functional firmware in ROM, then the OS applies a RAM patch to provide full functionality or address functional or security issues. I'm not sure how I would be more free or secure if Broadcom or Intel placed the full firmware in the ROM and never updated it, than if the continued to supply updated firmware blobs. The firmware for these devices historically is riddled with security issues, just recently this CVE affected most of the Intel AC WiFi cards [1] Also Redpine supports firmware blob updates with some versions of their hardware, so I'm not sure if they are just playing word games here by saying it will WORK without extra blobs, but then expect everyone will really still use the blobs to stay up-to-date. [2] [1] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/security-center/advisory/intel-sa-00128.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/security-center/advi... [2] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git/tree/rsi https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/lin...

abrowne 8y ago
I believe the FSF position is that non-updatable firmware can be considered "part of the hardware", while updatable firmware cannot. I think they're concerned that updated firmware could change how the device functions in ways you can't control.
- btashton 8y ago
  Except that I am almost 100% certain [1] that they are using the RS9113 which as I suspected IS updateable (in some cases wirelessly) [2]. In fact in the Linux Firmware tree they have multiple firmware images depending on how you want the device to function. [3] >The host MCU can update the RS9113 module FW over UART using the kermit protocol or over SPI using the proprietary binary protocol. The default UART baud rate is 115200 kbps 8N1 with xon/off or no flow control. For baud rate >900000, hardware flow control must be used. Refer to the WiSeConnect PRM for more info - the "Upgrading the Firmware in Module" section discusses the SPI mode and "Firmware Upgradation" section discusses the UART mode. [1] https://source.puri.sm/bob.ham/image-builder/commit/856c9caf647aca14edfb125fb86b94ddb1240287 https://source.puri.sm/bob.ham/image-builder/commit/856c9caf... [2] http://www.redpinesignals.com/faqs.php http://www.redpinesignals.com/faqs.php [3] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git/commit/rsi?id=c1aa76a28c8031f747f6589e9b0f5aca8924a5e7 https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/lin...

jancsika 8y ago

> The cellular modem is arguably the most complex part of a mobile phone. Ok, so in the dev kit/final product will there be a physical switch to turn it off? Or at least a CLI command? Possibly a GUI with a big toggle labeled "Turn off the insanely complex unauditable OS that I must run to live in the 21st century because patents"?

daurnimator 8y ago
I would assume/hope that the "airplane mode" would do such a thing...
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Yes, but the idea is that airplane mode can be faked in such a way by software that you cannot be sure its entirely off (remember Android still scanning WLAN/Bluetooth even whilst it was off?). With a hardware kill switch, you have more assurance it is off. With tinfoil, yet even more.
  - jancsika 8y ago
    Tinfoil manifests a much worse UX than the kill switch. The foil is physically separate from the phone and can easily get misplaced or torn such that the phone is no longer able to be secured. Moreover, the user can be so physically exhausted that they neglect to retrieve the foil from their fanny pack and properly wrap the phone (not to mention checking for any areas where holes might let the signal escape which takes extra time). It is at least an order of magnitude quicker for the user to toggle a kill switch that resides at all times on the phone. Negligence due to physical exhaustion is thus eliminated-- as long as the user can physically access the phone they have sufficient energy to click the kill switch. And as long as the user is able to reach the phone they can access the kill switch, which isn't necessarily true for the tin foil. Additionally, there are a variety of social engineering attacks that can cause a user to become reluctant to wrap their phone in tinfoil, reluctant retrieve the foil, and even reluctant carry their fanny pack with them. None of those attacks exist for clicking a toggle, especially one designed as an elegant part of the phone's facade (which itself may go unnoticed by the would-be attacker). Finally, toggling an unobtrusive switch on one's phone doesn't invite onlookers to come over and start discussing unwanted topics like PGP keysigning parties, onion sites, and how the average life span would have increased by 20 years if everyone were still using Gopher.

grizzles 8y ago

> we foresee a delay in production until April 2019. This is the only bit I read, the rest was blah blah. The first entirely predictable delay of many, if I might add. They are on a long road to "Sorry we tried, here are some discount coupons for purism laptops". Well, it won't be that long really, unless a badly needed funding angel swoops in. Their delusion is in some sense laudable, as any startup should believe it's own bullshit. But when you know better than they do about their chances, it's still hard to watch folks put themselves through this.

lsh 8y ago
So cynical! I don't blame you, but being a cynical and pessimistic spectator is easy. Instead of slinging shit you might indulge us with just how you know better. Is it from watching many failures from the sidelines?
- grizzles 8y ago
  They are wildly undercapitalized for what they are trying to do. They asked me to invest, I said no. It will be tough for them to find investors, the phone industry is a ruthlessly competitive market. The CEO is very headstrong. That's great when you are an expert in hardware projects, but he's not. In my opinion, they are trying to do too many things, and aren't learning from their mistakes or listening to the advice of others. The best thing they could do right now to maximize their chances would be to lay off their software team and focus entirely on the hardware. Let the community supply that part of it.
  - megous 8y ago
    I'd like them to do that too. It's a chicken/egg/bootstrapping problem. You don't get a community of developers without HW, and you don't get a useful HW running OSS OS/userspace without the community. OTOH, I think they'll have trouble attracting that much of a community to sustain the project if they just throw out such an expensive initially useless hardware out there. But at least people will have something to play with. Better than promisses and sorrys.

shmerl 8y ago

I still don't get it, why they didn't pick Plasma Mobile as their primary UX.

comesee 8y ago
Does it matter? If it's open, someone can create a plasma mobile distro.
- shmerl 8y ago
  It matters for resources focus IMHO.
amiga-workbench 8y ago
A shell that looks like it was built by blind people is probably a hard sell for an "open" phone which many will already believe to be lacking in polish.

alain94040 8y ago

[random idea] Rather than worry endlessly about SOCs and radios not being open enough, why not build a protocol on top of blackbox components that eliminates, through some kind of encryption, the need for openness? To push the argument to the extreme, even if you find a radio component that matches your requirement of free, it's still going to talk to a radio tower that you don't control, running a software stack that you don't approve. This problem never ends, unless you imagine some end-to-end channel that you control, and then you don't care about the lower layer's lack of openness. Does that make any sense?

comesee 8y ago
I agree with you, but the issue here is that in traditional phone architectures, the baseband processor could interrupt and monitor the execution of the main CPU (for efficiency purposes). So theoretically you couldn't be certain that your plaintext wasn't being exfiltrated. With a separate baseband, it's a lot harder (but possible) for a blackbox CPU to exfiltrate your info.
ufo 8y ago
The problem with the proprietary components is that it makes it very difficult for third party developers to install their own versions of the operating system. The complex system of mandatory proprietary firmware is the reason why the custom ROM ecosststem is so fragmented and unreliable.

andmarios 8y ago

Not directly related, but sometimes I do wonder how free software can compete with the services of the behemoths (maps, assistants, etc). So the other day I hit this article [1] on planet.kde.org about KDE Itinerary, an application that can store your boarding passes and offer some additional services, such as calendar integration or notifications in case your destination has a different socket type, they drive on the left side, etc. It seemed quite useful and some parts are novel. Maybe there is a future for phones with just free software. [1] https://www.volkerkrause.eu/2018/08/25/kde-itinerary-overview.html https://www.volkerkrause.eu/2018/08/25/kde-itinerary-overvie...

cmsimike 8y ago
As long as you can run your own software, you can build what you want. Not to say it will have the polish current solutions offer, but I don't want current solutions. I want mine. There was an article recently here about someone using a RasPi (with golang) to build a custom GPS mapping solution. I've been doing something similar (though using raspi connecting to my head unit via composite video) as well as pulling sensor info from ODBII and currently looking into CanBus.
tfha 8y ago
Money is a big part of it. We still don't have a good way to monetize open source applications.
hegz 8y ago
I have been using only open source apps for the last year. For basic stuff like podcast streaming and IM the Foss stuff is better than the proprietary stuff. For complex things like maps and assistants its like taking a step 5 years back in the past. OSM and is no where near as good as google maps at most things but its still perfectly usable. The average person probably won't be happy with a purely foss phone right now but if its something you care about then it can be done fairly easily.
- fosco 8y ago
  what podcast streamer do you use? looking for alternative.

bubblethink 8y ago

I wish they would do more practical engineering work on the only real product that they do have, which is the laptop. I visit their forum from time to time, and there are multiple long standing posts with multiple people facing problems due to battery drain, fan issues, suspend/resume, freezes etc. All this grandstanding is useless if the product fails basic usability criteria.

cmsimike 8y ago

Looks like an HDMI mini is confirmed, which means time to build my own in-car librem-based infotainment center, starring Kodi and Home Assistant!

bo1024 8y ago

Lots of criticism here focusing on use of the word ethical. I don't care to argue semantics, I'm just really excited for this phone!

3131s 8y ago
I thought that was odd too. There is one instance of the word "ethical" in an otherwise technical article and it's hardly egregious compared to the marketing speech of nearly big tech company: > We will continue to evolve as we understand better how this subset of the industry works. The success of our phone is critical, as it will provide us with the legitimacy and leverage we need to bend hardware suppliers to our way of thinking by showing them that we have the potential to be market leaders with ethical products that respect users.
- confounded 8y ago
  See dang’s comment way down. The link was originally to a very self-congratulatory press release from the marketing person, and later changed to a blog post with details and exposition from the CTO. Purism’s style in press releases is pretty annoying, but I really appreciate the blog posts. I backed the phone. I’ve backed most GNU+Linux replacements for my iDevices. If it half-works it will have wildly exceeded my expectations! I wish them the very best.
  - bo1024 8y ago
    Thanks, that explains a lot. Sometimes HN's moderation style of changing links causes this kind of confusion.

matheusmoreira 8y ago

They seem to be focusing a lot on phones nowadays. What about the laptops? No progress on that?

megous 8y ago

Other than the physical switches (which sounds not all that interesting, since if I'll be in control of the software/OS, I can trust the GPIOs controlling some MOSFETs switches pretty much the same), this phone can only really differentiate itself by being very friendly to the FOSS developers/enthusiasts crowd. A phone where you could get creative and manipulate every aspect of it without the artificial [security/functionality/SDK] limitations imposed on apps you can write for Android or that other comapny's phone OS I don't like even more. A phone that will not get planned obsolescence. A phone with OS that can be managed just like any other linux distro, where you can write apps in any of the readily available languages, etc. Failing this, it's just overpriced wannabe Android clone.

onefish 8y ago
I'm with you there in not really buying into the whole security, trust, and ethics story line which mostly seems to be appealing to a bandwagon of sentiments around corporate and government spying. Unfortunately, these sentiments are probably the only reason otherwise-average people - the kind of people who don't care about recompiling the kernel for their phone, on their phone, or jiggling GPIOs to remove power from subsystems - would probably buy anything other than an Android or Apple phone. Without this both comparatively large in one respect (with respect to the set of all reasonably tech-savvy people) but comparatively minuscule in another (with respect to the set of all smartphone consumers) set of people, you're going to end up with another OpenMoko Freerunner type situation where the only people using it are the frankly ultra-fringe types like us who care more about having a pocket computer that behaves like, well, an actual computer should and are frustrated with the creative limitations of SDK-based lock-in. I sometimes wonder how much Purism actually cares about all this security, trust, ethics rhetoric and how much of it is a bunch of geeks who just want to finally have a smartphone which can run an actual Linux distribution and figured "hey, consumers are pretty riled-up about this whole government spying thing - and it's pretty easy to audit open source software for that sort of stuff - maybe we can work an angle..."
- megous 8y ago
  > Unfortunately, these sentiments are probably the only reason otherwise-average people - the kind of people who don't care about recompiling the kernel for their phone, on their phone, I guess that's true, but these people probably will not be the driving force of the community around the phone. They'll be helping sustain the vendor financially, which is also valuable though. I already have a mobile device to play with with a similar design to this phone, that has a separate 3G modem and can also be made to make calls. It's a bulkier 7" tablet. It will never get an opensource GPU driver, and suspend to ram is also out of the question for now. But it's fun to play with and explore. Recently, I had fun with adding touch UI support for u-boot, to implement a boot menu and some battery indicator: https://megous.com/dl/u-boot.mp4 https://megous.com/dl/u-boot.mp4 Also if you drop the typical Linux userspace, and replace systemd with a custom init binary, create a DRI based UI app it's possible to get cold boot times to useable GUI in 1-2 seconds from pressing a button. So I'm excited for what will be possible to do if the hardware of that phone ever materializes.

adiusmus 8y ago

Looks good in principle. It meets a lot of my requirements. I’m not sure what ethical means when a corporation says it. Purism at least state what they mean and how they apply it. What I’m looking for in a mobile phone: Good screen. iPhone X quality. 4gb ram. 16gb main storage. Headphone jack nice but not required. Linux OS. (Android is ok) Ability to write my own apps for custom accessories. Some kind of AppStore. (Debian apt repo is ok) Secure Enclave. Cellular is not directly on main system bus. Accelerated graphics. Decent sound. Fast enough to play video with background tasks. Removeable battery. Repairable.

vertex-four 8y ago
Sounds like you’re looking for the Pixel.
- culot 8y ago
  The Pixels don't have removable batteries, and certainly are repair-unfriendly. Too bad LG quit doing removable batteries, their phones with that design were relatively repair-friendly.
  - adiusmus 8y ago
    I think I’ll wait another 12 months. The pixel / current iPhones don’t excite me yet.

wodenokoto 8y ago

Does anyone know how the camera stacks up against, maybe not iPhone X, but at least 6 or 7?

snaky 8y ago
You can switch it off. https://puri.sm/posts/hard-not-soft-kill-switches/ https://puri.sm/posts/hard-not-soft-kill-switches/
- fishmeat 8y ago
  This.
- wodenokoto 8y ago
  Haha, okay. I'll try again: How do they compare when explicitly turned on?

krn 8y ago

I am totally fine with PCs, which allow me to install any OS I prefer. And I am totally fine with smartphones, which allow me to flash any ROM I prefer. This way I get both, secure hardware and private software.

phobosdeimos 8y ago

Cheap Chinaphone: €300 DNS66 and Yalp store so that nobody gets payed: priceless There are easier ways to frustrate the tech industry. Oh and if you live in the US mobile networks will still sell you out no matter what brand your phone is. They all have to connect to cell towers.

snaky 8y ago
> Over 40 models of low-cost Android smartphones are sold already infected with the Triada banking trojan, says Dr.Web

tarboreus 8y ago

I don't see anything on their sites about accessibility features. An ethical FLOSS phone is an awesome idea, but I'm concerned that if they don't think about accessibility at all in making it then it will be hard or impossible to add those features in after the fact.