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Ask HN: Where are other tech scenes outside Bay Area

66 points by xfour 8y ago

I feel like I’ve missed the boat when it comes to home ownership here in the Bay Area. Furthermore, my wife wants stability in home ownership for our nascent family, and renting is hardly affordable, not to mention lacking in the potential for growth in equity. The usual option of Austin doesn’t excite me. Where else are people going that has a Tech scene? Currently, I’m working as a Director of Engineering, making 300k+, but it doesn’t seem to matter; all I can afford is either under a freeway or under power lines, it seems. I don’t want to overextend across 30 years. Any suggestions? I’d be happier, I think, somewhere else, with a lower paying job, incredibly, but I’m having a hard time figuring out somewhere with a good mix of weather, jobs, properties, schools.

dmode 8y ago
I make similar salary and have a nice 3000sqft house that I paid $1mn for in the Bay Area. Areas where you can still buy SFH just around a million include Oakland Hills, Orinda, Walnut Creek, Union City, Dublin, Hayward parts of San Jose. Try to find a new construction so that you don't have to deal with competition
GiorgioG 8y ago
RTP (Research Triangle Park, Raleigh/Durham NC) edit: (in the original post I only posted the 'RTP' acronym.)
- anonytrary 8y ago
  I was gonna say Raleigh, NC. After looking up what RTP refers to, I am pleasantly surprised to see this as the first answer!
  - xfour 8y ago
    Yea I googled it, Research Park Triangle it seems. It seemed really interesting. Housing seemed to be pretty reasonable by California standards. What neighborhoods are worth checking out and what companies are interesting. Saw a lot of NetApp and IBM. Nothing wrong with those just seems like not a lot of companies just a few of ones from first glance.
    - GiorgioG 8y ago
      Red Hat, Citrix, Cisco, Epic (Fortnite), SAS, Microsoft, Glaxo-Smith-Kline, a bunch of smaller startups/companies, etc. I moved down here 5 years ago (from Buffalo, NY) but I work remotely for a non-local company. As far as neighborhoods good, we're happy in Holly Springs, Apex is north of us, and Fuquay-Varina is just to the south. Cary is by far the most desirable area due to it's proximity to RTP. We decided we wanted more house/backyard than we could afford in Cary and so we settled in Holly Springs. If I had to work in RTP I'd hop on the 540 (toll road) and be there in 30 minutes.
adrianN 8y ago
Come to Berlin
- xfour 8y ago
  Had a friend that recently washed out of SoundCloud and returned to the U.S. I spent some time there and went to the disrupt Europe when it was in Berlin. I might be able to swing it long term as my wife has an Italian passport but would be a longer process with that. Seemed like when I was there it was something about a rocket and cloning US tech and SoundCloud were the two big games in town. Has there gotten to be a more critical mass of companies there recently?
  - expertentipp 8y ago
    Selling clothes, food, and insurances over the internet is big in Berlin nowadays. All "machine learning" - the user asks for shoes and gets a clown outfit, annual subscription to a local sushi place, and everything is fully insured in case of failure of German pension system. Positioning in Google search results is booming also.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    Amazon is here, Twitch is here, Google is in the process of opening an office here. Microsoft has an office too, but I don't know whether it's engineering or not. Pivotal Labs has an office here. There is also Siemens who is desperately looking to adapt to the "digital transformation". There is a pretty healthy startup scene of smaller companies, check e.g. https://www.startupnight.net/startups https://www.startupnight.net/startups or https://www.adlershof.de/en/companies-institutes/directory/ https://www.adlershof.de/en/companies-institutes/directory/. There are also a number of smaller companies that aren't startups.
dpods 8y ago
Have you worked with a real estate agent and lender to see what properties you could afford? You might be surprised with what you can afford. I recently moved from SF to San Diego about a year ago and just bought a house. It’s not that we couldn’t afford a house in the Bay Area. Just that in SD we could afford a house in a neighborhood we’d actually want to live in. It’s a different market down here. Lots of biotech and defense contractors. Primarily Java, C++, C# but you can find some ruby and php positions. I haven’t seen any python and very little node.js positions but they are out there. Startup scene is obviously much smaller but if you look hard enough you can find some great companies.
- xfour 8y ago
  Pretty familiar with San Diego, it’s the nicer part of Southern California from my perspective. My Cousin just opened a Brewery called the Kensington which I believe is the name of the neighborhood as well. What neighborhood did you land in? What’s the percentage difference in Salary you’d expect? Say Mid Level Developer in SF is ~150-200k at this point would it be 100k median or so?
locust101 8y ago
Is being part of tech scene a requirement? Chicago is pretty nice, affordable and cosmopolitan.
- xfour 8y ago
  Tech Scene for me personally provides a type of insurance. Here in the Bay Area you just have 1000s of companies bit and small contributing to this insane ecosystem that feels so that you could get a new job if necessary relatively easily. In other cities it seems like you have a single or a few employers and if it didn’t work out with them you’d need to uproot your life and move areas again. Having an ecosystem like that allows a bit more options. That being said I don’t imagine Chicago to be like that, what tech companies do you like in that area? As that’s what I’m qualified to do.
  - wbl 8y ago
    You don't need to be at a tech company to work as a programmer.
    - xfour 8y ago
      True, never really thought about that software tech really is in every industry. Do you do that and is it fulfilling?
      - scarface74 8y ago
        My definition of fulfilling is getting a check large enough to live a comfortable life in the burbs where I get to come home at a reasonable time.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      For you to have to spell that out is evidence of how large the HN SV bubble is.....
  - jpatokal 8y ago
    Contrarian thought: if/when the tech bubble bursts, there's suddenly going to be 1000s of companies laying off software engineers in Silicon Valley, who will all be furiously competing for what jobs remain. By comparison, working in IT at a non-SV/not-pure-tech company, in a town with lots of other non-tech companies, would be much better insurance.
atlasunshrugged 8y ago
I'm a former Bay Area startupper (Marketing/Sales early stage and a bit of product, not an engineer) and did a stint in Berlin and am currently in Tallinn (Estonia). I think for quality of life Berlin can't be beat, it's a big city but you can choose the right neighborhood for a reasonable price and get any sort of vibe you want from small town to big city hipster (okay maybe there are a few neighborhoods with the latter vibe). But frankly I doubt you're going to be able to secure a gig at that pay, you'll have to decide if general quality of life is worth the monetary tradeoff. The tech scene itself is much more nascent in Berlin (and way underfunded) but you may be able to parlay your 'Silicon Valley' roots into a sweet senior gig in an innovation lab or as a senior engineer at a bigger corporate that's trying to compete with newcomers which is a big theme in German corporates right now
- imAsking9836 8y ago
  Always wanted to work in Berlin. How did you manage the language barrier? I know that most gigs use English as the first language but how about the daily life like doing groceries or calling the phone company for a bad bill?
  - expertentipp 8y ago
    > calling the phone company for a bad bill oh, here the knowledge of German doesn't matter - an individual consumer is a pariah with obligatory 2 years contract. One should certainly avoid English speaking landlords in Berlin though.
    - tnova 8y ago
      > One should certainly avoid English speaking landlords in Berlin though. Would you care to elaborate on that?
      - expertentipp 8y ago
        Hordes of fraudsters preying on uninformed foreigners, e.g. one is not covered with oh-so-famous German tenancy laws if the apartment is furnished, exploitive practices with refurbishing the apartment, litigations regarding the return of the deposit, extortive agent fees, etc. A whole long expensive scammy bumpy road at the end of which one is broke financially and exhausted mentally.
mpolichette 8y ago
SLC, Utah is pretty great, I almost don’t want to mention it because the tech jobs are great and the state provides a lot to do.. its like a hidden gem no one thinks about because they consider it Mormon land... There are a lot of companies opening offices out here though!
- xfour 8y ago
  Sounds pretty interesting. On a more micro (neighborhood level) of suburb level what areas are worth checking out. On the job front, what companies do you think are innovative or majors opening branches are worth looking at?
  - mpolichette 8y ago
    For living? There’s a lot of choice, I love sugarhouse which is where I am. It’s close enough to hit downtown without being in the “heart of it”. Which, in slc is still not that much... you can easily choose to be further or closer to downtown life depending on what you want. A lot of the tech scene is actually down south by Lehi. I commute that direction about 25-30 min and it’s not too bad. There are some established big players here, Adobe, and EBay and I think Walmart labs has an office here. I work for Ubiquiti, which is growing out their office here pretty quickly also. A lot of small/medium sized startups too... Google around for “Silicon Slopes” which is the sort of name the local VCs give the area.
  - nkingsy 8y ago
    We moved from the bay to SLC in November to be closer to my wife's parents (second kid) and own a nice home in a nice neighborhood (Cottonwood Heights, highly recommended). That part is spectacular. We have our choice of clean, nicely appointed parks full of kids 3 minutes walk in either direction, 2 minute drive to get into the canyons, and I have a big garden. The options for jobs and salaries are nothing like the bay. Software engineers rarely make over 120k here. Plenty of techish companies scattered all around the valley and Park City, but not many I was excited about. I took a job in Kimball Junction (PC), commuting 26 minutes. Here that qualifies as a big commute. Until recently, SLC was mostly LDS and mountain lovers, and the work culture reflects both groups' regard for to their non-work life. The company I joined is based in SV and almost all of the people in the office are transplants. I think that's because the company's work/life balance expectations are not in line with what most people want around here.
gamechangr 8y ago
Denver, Colorado.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  Last I looked at Denver-Boulder (maybe 10 years ago), the software jobs there were almost exclusively on the Microsoft stack. Has that changed?
vyrotek 8y ago
Lot of good stuff happening in Scottsdale and Tempe Arizona. Cost of living is fantastic. Lehi, Utah as others have mentioned is great too. I moved from there back to AZ to escape the show though.
- xfour 8y ago
  What show was so scary it chased you back to AZ? Book of Mormon? J/K assuming you meant snow. Jokes aside what companies do you like in the area?
lwhalen 8y ago
Seattle? You can also land a job working remotely, and live whereever you please.
- xfour 8y ago
  I hear Seattle has gotten just as expensive as SF not true? Remote is interesting for sure. The rise of companies like Buffer and I believe the Wordpress company is 100% remote. Definitely solves half my issue also looking for somewhere actually nice to live.
  - guitarbill 8y ago
    Seattle should be okay if you already have a partner. Everywhere is growing insanely, but there's still affordable property out there (e.g. north) if you don't mind an awful commute, or are willing to do park & ride/public transport. With the growth rate, those communities will become really lively/ruined, too (depends on your PoV). Could be worth waiting until HQ2 is announced though. Families won't necessarily be interested moving, but there's enough people around who'll make the jump, which maybe helps with prices? Who knows.
  - gcampos 8y ago
    Seattle is expensive, but not near as much as SF. I actually think here is one of the best places to leave. You can find SV level paychecks, no income tax, and housing for half of the price!
    - edoceo 8y ago
      Also, 45 minutes out of the city core (light traffic) gets real affordable compared to in-city. If you can bus or commute off-hours it can work.
meritt 8y ago
Portland has a thriving tech scene with 4,782 open jobs [1] at the moment. Home prices are about a third of the median in SF/SV. [1] http://portlandtech.org/ http://portlandtech.org/
- xfour 8y ago
  Portland is definitely somewhere I’ve been thinking. Schools seem to be an issue in a lot of neighborhoods except Lake Oswego. Anywhere closer to the city know for good schools? Also what’s your favorite companies of those 4K openings I should look into?
  - mech4bg 8y ago
    Forest Heights has good schools, is affordable (by Bay Area standards at least) and is a short drive to downtown, 10-25 minutes depending on where and what time of day.
  - adventured 8y ago
    A couple of years ago I seriously looked at the Camas / Vancouver area, just across the line from Portland. No income tax in Washington of course (if you work in Portland that obviously changes the equation, as opposed to remoting). Use Portland for the nearby metro benefits, and housing prices in the region are drastically better than Seattle. I can't speak to the schools in the area however.
- claudiulodro 8y ago
  Unless you're at the giant Beaverton-based corporations (Intel, Nike, etc.), salaries seem to be about a third also.
corv 8y ago
The idea that home ownership guarantees growth is a fallacy. In most cities prices only keep up with inflation. Ergo you are financially better off renting, and investing the money you would have spent on a house.
- adrianN 8y ago
  Only if the returns of your investments minus the rent still beat inflation.
  - corv 8y ago
    Unless you've timed your real estate purchase and sale very well and happen to live in an exceptional city the average return of the public markets is most likely to exceed.
- scarface74 8y ago
  A house is an inflation hedge. I live in a metro area. Rent went up from $1200 a month in 2012 to $1700 a month in 2016. Now it is $2100 a month. This was for a 3 bedroom 1600 square foot apartment. We moved into a 2900 square foot house, a new build, where the mortgage is about the same. A fixed rate mortgage will only change slightly with property taxes and insurance. Even if the value of the house only goes up with inflation, you still get larger returns because you can take advantage of leveraging other people’s money. Also, a paid off house means that’s one expense you don’t have to worry about after you retire.
spotmessage1 8y ago
Bay Area is still first, but these are not far behind: 1. Oxford-Cambridge-London in the UK 2. Shenzhen-Guangzhou-Hong Kong in China 3. Israel
- wprapido 8y ago
  Housing in London is almost as bad as in SV. Don't mind the gloomy Brexit prospects. Tel Aviv is awesome. Still housing is an issue. Getting a residence permit unless you are Jewish or marry is way harder than in many other developed countries. Other than that, a great option.
plessthanpt05 8y ago
I've seen Los Angeles being called 'silicon beach' (around Venice and Santa Monica) and I've read that the Midwest (Omaha I think) is being referred to as 'silicon prairie'.
- xfour 8y ago
  I’ve heard people complaining that LA is just as bad as the Bay now housing costs vs Salaries. Anyone live in the Midwest and can chime in on their experiences?
  - jypepin 8y ago
    My sample size is very small, but everyone I know who moved from SF to LA for tech jobs get pretty much the same salary and housing is still cheaper, even for places right in Venice/Santa Monica.
scyber 8y ago
I think the biggest question is how long do you want to commute? If you are willing to do the 70-90m daily commute then their are plenty of areas on central nj and pa that are commutable to NYC. and 300k a year will buy you a large homestead in those areas.
kosei 8y ago
I've heard good things about Dublin. Anyone here on HN able to speak from direct experience? Personally live in Seattle and love it, but I got in before the major boom and it is not nearly as affordable as 5-10 years ago. Still think it is a major upgrade to SF, though.
- fyfy18 8y ago
  Compared to other European capitals, when I was there a few years ago, the tech scene in Dublin was relatively small. I think it's grown a bit now, but at the same time I've heard rental prices have gone up quite substantially. Also worth mentioning that whatever happens with Brexit will have an affect on Ireland too (probably in a bad way), due to the shared border with the UK.
  - neskimoo 8y ago
    The tech scene in Dublin has definitely expanded in the last few years but the renting market is very bad. You would be looking at paying prices similar to London houseshares for less pay. That being said the housing market looks to be at it's peak here so it's likely to drop in the next couple of years again. Ireland will likely take some form of impact from Brexit, especially if tariffs are brought in on trade of goods with the UK. I would still think that the tech scene shouldn't be too impacted and may see more growth if multinational comapanies move after Brexit.
    - expertentipp 8y ago
      > That being said the housing market looks to be at it's peak here so it's likely to drop in the next couple of years again. The property market of renting and buying is in an expensive deadlock (relatively to local earnings) everywhere from Lisbon to Krakow, from Reykjavik to Barcelona. I wouldn't expect it to just "drop" by itself anywhere as too many significant entities are betting on it.
  - jpatokal 8y ago
    The impact on tech is mixed, as there are quite a few multinationals moving from London to Dublin to stay within the EU.
client4 8y ago
Montana. We have SoFi, Oracle, Submittable, OnX Maps, etc.
jypepin 8y ago
If you are relocating to Europe, Amsterdam is great. The economy is good, the tech scene is already good and booming. A lot of local startups, bigger and bigger local companies and the typical international tech startups are here. Salary are lower but the cost of life too and you'll live way better here. Home prices, groceries, restaurants/bars and travels are mostly cheaper. I'd say I spend almost half in Amsterdam than what I was spending in SF, for a pretty similar life style. This sounds true to most of my friends who did the same move. Everyone speaks english, so you won't have to rush to learn Dutch. There are great english-speaking private schools that you'll be able to afford, or free Dutch schools, to which your kids will adapt very quick if they are still young.
ben_w 8y ago
Have you considered getting a private pilot license? That should cost around a month of your salary, and open up a much longer commute without adding time… at least, that’s the impression I’ve had when considering the Bay Area.
- lylecubed 8y ago
  Do you know anybody who commutes by plane? It's an interesting notion, but something tells me it's too expensive of a commute, even for Bay Area salaries.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    I occasionally read about people doing it, and a Bay Area air taxi startup kept trying to sign me up for a free trial… but no, no personal experiences of people I know. I wouldn’t consider it for someone earning less than about $180k/year, just because of how much licensing and vehicles cost, but the comment I was responding to said >$300k.
fakeElonMusk 8y ago
We left the Bay Area two years ago and went to Prague. I miss Philz and Blue Bottle but we are pretty happy here. Similar scene as Berlin - not quite as nice but cheap with lots of green space everywhere. If your wife has an EU passport you should be fine anywhere in Europe. I'm freelancing for clients in the Bay Area and east coast (software eng) so I'm lucky to have best of both worlds. I would imagine you have a good network of people in tech so you could probably transition to freelance work and live anywhere. Email me if you want to discuss. Co-work spaces here are anywhere from $100 - $500/mo. Internet is so blazing fast it's ridiculous - 300mbs on ethernet in our apartment. What we had in SF was pathetic. Condo prices in central Prague are about $4,500usd/m2 - so 500k usd will get you a nice 2 bedroom in a really nice neighborhood. For the same money you can move 20 minutes by train outside the center and get a small house with a yard. If you are leaning towards Europe the best tech scenes IMO are in Berlin, Amsterdam and Barcelona. Barcelona has really been picking up in the last few years and is probably the cheapest.
strayamaaate 8y ago
I did a year in Berlin and tend to agree with Peter Thiels assessment - “I always thought Berlin would be a great place for innovation, but now I think it’s a place people in their 20s move to when they want to retire” Personally I had a lot of good times in Berlin, but it didn't feel like it had the drive of the valley. Recently moved to Toronto, and loving it here so far. Great scene, smart & friendly people and lots of growth. Not trying to badmouth Berlin, it's a super cool city. Just didn't hit the mark for me. https://business.financialpost.com/technology/torontos-tech-scene-gets-hotter-beating-san-francisco-bay-area-in-new-jobs-and-new-york-in-talent https://business.financialpost.com/technology/torontos-tech-...
- krn 8y ago
  To put it simply, in a "work and life balance" Berlin is inevitably more about life than about work. And if your personal growth depends on the people you are surrounded by, it might not always be the best place to live in.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
supratims 8y ago
I came to London 8 year back and I love the tech scene here. Thought rents/commute etc could be steep, one can expect decent salary as well.
wprapido 8y ago
Well, nowhere you could get the SV rates. Yet, nowhere you'd be struggling on a quarter a million. There is tech beyond SV. My current company is distributed between a second tier city in Croatia and a semi-rural town in NZ. We are in the end-of-life tech, and are taking the Advisor track at Startup School. Times when you had no tech other than ol' skool corporate IT beyond SV, London, and a few other spots are gone. My current city, Osijek, a second tier city has some amazing tech that is quite prominent globally. Farmeron (AgTech) was founded here and later acquired, https://www.netocratic.com/farmeron-closes-gideon-brother-111385 https://www.netocratic.com/farmeron-closes-gideon-brother-11... . Infobip (telco infrastructure software) was founded in a semi rural town in Istria region in Croatia. Don't overlook Eastern Europe. Estonia, Czech, Romania, Poland got amazing tech scenes, and the life is good. If you work remotely, options are even more abundant. Don't mind that SV is actually quite vulnerable and gets hit badly by recessions, bursts, etc. As of the US. New Mexico, Colorado, Washington, are all quite livable.
- taysic 8y ago
  Does your company employ any US citizens in Croatia? I understand that the taxes would not be able to be deducted from one's US taxes - so basically one would pay double taxes.
  - wprapido 8y ago
    We do hire some freelancers / contractors / advisors. So far they are in Croatia, Serbia, UK, Malta, France, Cyprus, Israel. Not sure on taxation for the US citizens, sorry.
throwaway_cad 8y ago
Look into Ottawa. Ottawa is a great place to raise a family, coffee (specifically little victories, happy goat, and black squirrel) and food culture is fantastic, great city for outdoor activities such as biking, rowing, hiking, etc..., very dog friendly city, 2 hours away from Montreal, 4.5 from Toronto. Not sure about tech salaries but I'm sure with your experience you can negotiate something similar. If you're looking for a Bay Area vibe I'd say the glebe is as close as you can get.
botten 8y ago
Stockholm, Sweden. Good tech scene, bad housing, but very family friendly (heavily subsidized kindergarten, free schools, paid parental leave, etc.).
ojhughes 8y ago
London but it’s a dirty miserable existence!
noetic_techy 8y ago
Miami, Tampa, Orlando. Cost of living is low in Florida. Although you wont make as much as SV, you will live very well. Plenty of family friendly picture perfect communities for young professionals.
throwaway2016a 8y ago
Cost of living is not much better but I'm personally partial to Boston and you can get houses in the surrounding bedroom communities for not too bad. If you don't mind going North of Boston, southern New Hampshire has a lot to offer but the tech scene is still pretty small.
bradknowles 8y ago
With respect, Austin is full. We don’t need any more ex-Californites moving here and driving up real estate prices even further. Thanks! You’re welcome to visit anytime you like, however.

66 points by xfour 8y ago

dmode 8y ago

I make similar salary and have a nice 3000sqft house that I paid $1mn for in the Bay Area. Areas where you can still buy SFH just around a million include Oakland Hills, Orinda, Walnut Creek, Union City, Dublin, Hayward parts of San Jose. Try to find a new construction so that you don't have to deal with competition

GiorgioG 8y ago

RTP (Research Triangle Park, Raleigh/Durham NC) edit: (in the original post I only posted the 'RTP' acronym.)

anonytrary 8y ago
I was gonna say Raleigh, NC. After looking up what RTP refers to, I am pleasantly surprised to see this as the first answer!
- xfour 8y ago
  Yea I googled it, Research Park Triangle it seems. It seemed really interesting. Housing seemed to be pretty reasonable by California standards. What neighborhoods are worth checking out and what companies are interesting. Saw a lot of NetApp and IBM. Nothing wrong with those just seems like not a lot of companies just a few of ones from first glance.
  - GiorgioG 8y ago
    Red Hat, Citrix, Cisco, Epic (Fortnite), SAS, Microsoft, Glaxo-Smith-Kline, a bunch of smaller startups/companies, etc. I moved down here 5 years ago (from Buffalo, NY) but I work remotely for a non-local company. As far as neighborhoods good, we're happy in Holly Springs, Apex is north of us, and Fuquay-Varina is just to the south. Cary is by far the most desirable area due to it's proximity to RTP. We decided we wanted more house/backyard than we could afford in Cary and so we settled in Holly Springs. If I had to work in RTP I'd hop on the 540 (toll road) and be there in 30 minutes.

adrianN 8y ago

Come to Berlin

xfour 8y ago
Had a friend that recently washed out of SoundCloud and returned to the U.S. I spent some time there and went to the disrupt Europe when it was in Berlin. I might be able to swing it long term as my wife has an Italian passport but would be a longer process with that. Seemed like when I was there it was something about a rocket and cloning US tech and SoundCloud were the two big games in town. Has there gotten to be a more critical mass of companies there recently?
- expertentipp 8y ago
  Selling clothes, food, and insurances over the internet is big in Berlin nowadays. All "machine learning" - the user asks for shoes and gets a clown outfit, annual subscription to a local sushi place, and everything is fully insured in case of failure of German pension system. Positioning in Google search results is booming also.
- adrianN 8y ago
  Amazon is here, Twitch is here, Google is in the process of opening an office here. Microsoft has an office too, but I don't know whether it's engineering or not. Pivotal Labs has an office here. There is also Siemens who is desperately looking to adapt to the "digital transformation". There is a pretty healthy startup scene of smaller companies, check e.g. https://www.startupnight.net/startups https://www.startupnight.net/startups or https://www.adlershof.de/en/companies-institutes/directory/ https://www.adlershof.de/en/companies-institutes/directory/. There are also a number of smaller companies that aren't startups.

dpods 8y ago

Have you worked with a real estate agent and lender to see what properties you could afford? You might be surprised with what you can afford. I recently moved from SF to San Diego about a year ago and just bought a house. It’s not that we couldn’t afford a house in the Bay Area. Just that in SD we could afford a house in a neighborhood we’d actually want to live in. It’s a different market down here. Lots of biotech and defense contractors. Primarily Java, C++, C# but you can find some ruby and php positions. I haven’t seen any python and very little node.js positions but they are out there. Startup scene is obviously much smaller but if you look hard enough you can find some great companies.

xfour 8y ago
Pretty familiar with San Diego, it’s the nicer part of Southern California from my perspective. My Cousin just opened a Brewery called the Kensington which I believe is the name of the neighborhood as well. What neighborhood did you land in? What’s the percentage difference in Salary you’d expect? Say Mid Level Developer in SF is ~150-200k at this point would it be 100k median or so?

locust101 8y ago

Is being part of tech scene a requirement? Chicago is pretty nice, affordable and cosmopolitan.

xfour 8y ago
Tech Scene for me personally provides a type of insurance. Here in the Bay Area you just have 1000s of companies bit and small contributing to this insane ecosystem that feels so that you could get a new job if necessary relatively easily. In other cities it seems like you have a single or a few employers and if it didn’t work out with them you’d need to uproot your life and move areas again. Having an ecosystem like that allows a bit more options. That being said I don’t imagine Chicago to be like that, what tech companies do you like in that area? As that’s what I’m qualified to do.
- wbl 8y ago
  You don't need to be at a tech company to work as a programmer.
  - xfour 8y ago
    True, never really thought about that software tech really is in every industry. Do you do that and is it fulfilling?
    - scarface74 8y ago
      My definition of fulfilling is getting a check large enough to live a comfortable life in the burbs where I get to come home at a reasonable time.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    For you to have to spell that out is evidence of how large the HN SV bubble is.....
- jpatokal 8y ago
  Contrarian thought: if/when the tech bubble bursts, there's suddenly going to be 1000s of companies laying off software engineers in Silicon Valley, who will all be furiously competing for what jobs remain. By comparison, working in IT at a non-SV/not-pure-tech company, in a town with lots of other non-tech companies, would be much better insurance.

atlasunshrugged 8y ago

I'm a former Bay Area startupper (Marketing/Sales early stage and a bit of product, not an engineer) and did a stint in Berlin and am currently in Tallinn (Estonia). I think for quality of life Berlin can't be beat, it's a big city but you can choose the right neighborhood for a reasonable price and get any sort of vibe you want from small town to big city hipster (okay maybe there are a few neighborhoods with the latter vibe). But frankly I doubt you're going to be able to secure a gig at that pay, you'll have to decide if general quality of life is worth the monetary tradeoff. The tech scene itself is much more nascent in Berlin (and way underfunded) but you may be able to parlay your 'Silicon Valley' roots into a sweet senior gig in an innovation lab or as a senior engineer at a bigger corporate that's trying to compete with newcomers which is a big theme in German corporates right now

imAsking9836 8y ago
Always wanted to work in Berlin. How did you manage the language barrier? I know that most gigs use English as the first language but how about the daily life like doing groceries or calling the phone company for a bad bill?
- expertentipp 8y ago
  > calling the phone company for a bad bill oh, here the knowledge of German doesn't matter - an individual consumer is a pariah with obligatory 2 years contract. One should certainly avoid English speaking landlords in Berlin though.
  - tnova 8y ago
    > One should certainly avoid English speaking landlords in Berlin though. Would you care to elaborate on that?
    - expertentipp 8y ago
      Hordes of fraudsters preying on uninformed foreigners, e.g. one is not covered with oh-so-famous German tenancy laws if the apartment is furnished, exploitive practices with refurbishing the apartment, litigations regarding the return of the deposit, extortive agent fees, etc. A whole long expensive scammy bumpy road at the end of which one is broke financially and exhausted mentally.

mpolichette 8y ago

SLC, Utah is pretty great, I almost don’t want to mention it because the tech jobs are great and the state provides a lot to do.. its like a hidden gem no one thinks about because they consider it Mormon land... There are a lot of companies opening offices out here though!

xfour 8y ago
Sounds pretty interesting. On a more micro (neighborhood level) of suburb level what areas are worth checking out. On the job front, what companies do you think are innovative or majors opening branches are worth looking at?
- mpolichette 8y ago
  For living? There’s a lot of choice, I love sugarhouse which is where I am. It’s close enough to hit downtown without being in the “heart of it”. Which, in slc is still not that much... you can easily choose to be further or closer to downtown life depending on what you want. A lot of the tech scene is actually down south by Lehi. I commute that direction about 25-30 min and it’s not too bad. There are some established big players here, Adobe, and EBay and I think Walmart labs has an office here. I work for Ubiquiti, which is growing out their office here pretty quickly also. A lot of small/medium sized startups too... Google around for “Silicon Slopes” which is the sort of name the local VCs give the area.
- nkingsy 8y ago
  We moved from the bay to SLC in November to be closer to my wife's parents (second kid) and own a nice home in a nice neighborhood (Cottonwood Heights, highly recommended). That part is spectacular. We have our choice of clean, nicely appointed parks full of kids 3 minutes walk in either direction, 2 minute drive to get into the canyons, and I have a big garden. The options for jobs and salaries are nothing like the bay. Software engineers rarely make over 120k here. Plenty of techish companies scattered all around the valley and Park City, but not many I was excited about. I took a job in Kimball Junction (PC), commuting 26 minutes. Here that qualifies as a big commute. Until recently, SLC was mostly LDS and mountain lovers, and the work culture reflects both groups' regard for to their non-work life. The company I joined is based in SV and almost all of the people in the office are transplants. I think that's because the company's work/life balance expectations are not in line with what most people want around here.

gamechangr 8y ago

Denver, Colorado.

cimmanom 8y ago
Last I looked at Denver-Boulder (maybe 10 years ago), the software jobs there were almost exclusively on the Microsoft stack. Has that changed?

vyrotek 8y ago

Lot of good stuff happening in Scottsdale and Tempe Arizona. Cost of living is fantastic. Lehi, Utah as others have mentioned is great too. I moved from there back to AZ to escape the show though.

xfour 8y ago
What show was so scary it chased you back to AZ? Book of Mormon? J/K assuming you meant snow. Jokes aside what companies do you like in the area?

lwhalen 8y ago

Seattle? You can also land a job working remotely, and live whereever you please.

xfour 8y ago
I hear Seattle has gotten just as expensive as SF not true? Remote is interesting for sure. The rise of companies like Buffer and I believe the Wordpress company is 100% remote. Definitely solves half my issue also looking for somewhere actually nice to live.
- guitarbill 8y ago
  Seattle should be okay if you already have a partner. Everywhere is growing insanely, but there's still affordable property out there (e.g. north) if you don't mind an awful commute, or are willing to do park & ride/public transport. With the growth rate, those communities will become really lively/ruined, too (depends on your PoV). Could be worth waiting until HQ2 is announced though. Families won't necessarily be interested moving, but there's enough people around who'll make the jump, which maybe helps with prices? Who knows.
- gcampos 8y ago
  Seattle is expensive, but not near as much as SF. I actually think here is one of the best places to leave. You can find SV level paychecks, no income tax, and housing for half of the price!
  - edoceo 8y ago
    Also, 45 minutes out of the city core (light traffic) gets real affordable compared to in-city. If you can bus or commute off-hours it can work.

meritt 8y ago

Portland has a thriving tech scene with 4,782 open jobs [1] at the moment. Home prices are about a third of the median in SF/SV. [1] http://portlandtech.org/ http://portlandtech.org/

xfour 8y ago
Portland is definitely somewhere I’ve been thinking. Schools seem to be an issue in a lot of neighborhoods except Lake Oswego. Anywhere closer to the city know for good schools? Also what’s your favorite companies of those 4K openings I should look into?
- mech4bg 8y ago
  Forest Heights has good schools, is affordable (by Bay Area standards at least) and is a short drive to downtown, 10-25 minutes depending on where and what time of day.
- adventured 8y ago
  A couple of years ago I seriously looked at the Camas / Vancouver area, just across the line from Portland. No income tax in Washington of course (if you work in Portland that obviously changes the equation, as opposed to remoting). Use Portland for the nearby metro benefits, and housing prices in the region are drastically better than Seattle. I can't speak to the schools in the area however.
claudiulodro 8y ago
Unless you're at the giant Beaverton-based corporations (Intel, Nike, etc.), salaries seem to be about a third also.

corv 8y ago

The idea that home ownership guarantees growth is a fallacy. In most cities prices only keep up with inflation. Ergo you are financially better off renting, and investing the money you would have spent on a house.

adrianN 8y ago
Only if the returns of your investments minus the rent still beat inflation.
- corv 8y ago
  Unless you've timed your real estate purchase and sale very well and happen to live in an exceptional city the average return of the public markets is most likely to exceed.
scarface74 8y ago
A house is an inflation hedge. I live in a metro area. Rent went up from $1200 a month in 2012 to $1700 a month in 2016. Now it is $2100 a month. This was for a 3 bedroom 1600 square foot apartment. We moved into a 2900 square foot house, a new build, where the mortgage is about the same. A fixed rate mortgage will only change slightly with property taxes and insurance. Even if the value of the house only goes up with inflation, you still get larger returns because you can take advantage of leveraging other people’s money. Also, a paid off house means that’s one expense you don’t have to worry about after you retire.

spotmessage1 8y ago

Bay Area is still first, but these are not far behind: 1. Oxford-Cambridge-London in the UK 2. Shenzhen-Guangzhou-Hong Kong in China 3. Israel

wprapido 8y ago
Housing in London is almost as bad as in SV. Don't mind the gloomy Brexit prospects. Tel Aviv is awesome. Still housing is an issue. Getting a residence permit unless you are Jewish or marry is way harder than in many other developed countries. Other than that, a great option.

plessthanpt05 8y ago

I've seen Los Angeles being called 'silicon beach' (around Venice and Santa Monica) and I've read that the Midwest (Omaha I think) is being referred to as 'silicon prairie'.

xfour 8y ago
I’ve heard people complaining that LA is just as bad as the Bay now housing costs vs Salaries. Anyone live in the Midwest and can chime in on their experiences?
- jypepin 8y ago
  My sample size is very small, but everyone I know who moved from SF to LA for tech jobs get pretty much the same salary and housing is still cheaper, even for places right in Venice/Santa Monica.

scyber 8y ago

I think the biggest question is how long do you want to commute? If you are willing to do the 70-90m daily commute then their are plenty of areas on central nj and pa that are commutable to NYC. and 300k a year will buy you a large homestead in those areas.

kosei 8y ago

I've heard good things about Dublin. Anyone here on HN able to speak from direct experience? Personally live in Seattle and love it, but I got in before the major boom and it is not nearly as affordable as 5-10 years ago. Still think it is a major upgrade to SF, though.

fyfy18 8y ago
Compared to other European capitals, when I was there a few years ago, the tech scene in Dublin was relatively small. I think it's grown a bit now, but at the same time I've heard rental prices have gone up quite substantially. Also worth mentioning that whatever happens with Brexit will have an affect on Ireland too (probably in a bad way), due to the shared border with the UK.
- neskimoo 8y ago
  The tech scene in Dublin has definitely expanded in the last few years but the renting market is very bad. You would be looking at paying prices similar to London houseshares for less pay. That being said the housing market looks to be at it's peak here so it's likely to drop in the next couple of years again. Ireland will likely take some form of impact from Brexit, especially if tariffs are brought in on trade of goods with the UK. I would still think that the tech scene shouldn't be too impacted and may see more growth if multinational comapanies move after Brexit.
  - expertentipp 8y ago
    > That being said the housing market looks to be at it's peak here so it's likely to drop in the next couple of years again. The property market of renting and buying is in an expensive deadlock (relatively to local earnings) everywhere from Lisbon to Krakow, from Reykjavik to Barcelona. I wouldn't expect it to just "drop" by itself anywhere as too many significant entities are betting on it.
- jpatokal 8y ago
  The impact on tech is mixed, as there are quite a few multinationals moving from London to Dublin to stay within the EU.

client4 8y ago

Montana. We have SoFi, Oracle, Submittable, OnX Maps, etc.

jypepin 8y ago

If you are relocating to Europe, Amsterdam is great. The economy is good, the tech scene is already good and booming. A lot of local startups, bigger and bigger local companies and the typical international tech startups are here. Salary are lower but the cost of life too and you'll live way better here. Home prices, groceries, restaurants/bars and travels are mostly cheaper. I'd say I spend almost half in Amsterdam than what I was spending in SF, for a pretty similar life style. This sounds true to most of my friends who did the same move. Everyone speaks english, so you won't have to rush to learn Dutch. There are great english-speaking private schools that you'll be able to afford, or free Dutch schools, to which your kids will adapt very quick if they are still young.

ben_w 8y ago

Have you considered getting a private pilot license? That should cost around a month of your salary, and open up a much longer commute without adding time… at least, that’s the impression I’ve had when considering the Bay Area.

lylecubed 8y ago
Do you know anybody who commutes by plane? It's an interesting notion, but something tells me it's too expensive of a commute, even for Bay Area salaries.
- ben_w 8y ago
  I occasionally read about people doing it, and a Bay Area air taxi startup kept trying to sign me up for a free trial… but no, no personal experiences of people I know. I wouldn’t consider it for someone earning less than about $180k/year, just because of how much licensing and vehicles cost, but the comment I was responding to said >$300k.

fakeElonMusk 8y ago

We left the Bay Area two years ago and went to Prague. I miss Philz and Blue Bottle but we are pretty happy here. Similar scene as Berlin - not quite as nice but cheap with lots of green space everywhere. If your wife has an EU passport you should be fine anywhere in Europe. I'm freelancing for clients in the Bay Area and east coast (software eng) so I'm lucky to have best of both worlds. I would imagine you have a good network of people in tech so you could probably transition to freelance work and live anywhere. Email me if you want to discuss. Co-work spaces here are anywhere from $100 - $500/mo. Internet is so blazing fast it's ridiculous - 300mbs on ethernet in our apartment. What we had in SF was pathetic. Condo prices in central Prague are about $4,500usd/m2 - so 500k usd will get you a nice 2 bedroom in a really nice neighborhood. For the same money you can move 20 minutes by train outside the center and get a small house with a yard. If you are leaning towards Europe the best tech scenes IMO are in Berlin, Amsterdam and Barcelona. Barcelona has really been picking up in the last few years and is probably the cheapest.

strayamaaate 8y ago

I did a year in Berlin and tend to agree with Peter Thiels assessment - “I always thought Berlin would be a great place for innovation, but now I think it’s a place people in their 20s move to when they want to retire” Personally I had a lot of good times in Berlin, but it didn't feel like it had the drive of the valley. Recently moved to Toronto, and loving it here so far. Great scene, smart & friendly people and lots of growth. Not trying to badmouth Berlin, it's a super cool city. Just didn't hit the mark for me. https://business.financialpost.com/technology/torontos-tech-scene-gets-hotter-beating-san-francisco-bay-area-in-new-jobs-and-new-york-in-talent https://business.financialpost.com/technology/torontos-tech-...

krn 8y ago
To put it simply, in a "work and life balance" Berlin is inevitably more about life than about work. And if your personal growth depends on the people you are surrounded by, it might not always be the best place to live in.

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supratims 8y ago

I came to London 8 year back and I love the tech scene here. Thought rents/commute etc could be steep, one can expect decent salary as well.

wprapido 8y ago

Well, nowhere you could get the SV rates. Yet, nowhere you'd be struggling on a quarter a million. There is tech beyond SV. My current company is distributed between a second tier city in Croatia and a semi-rural town in NZ. We are in the end-of-life tech, and are taking the Advisor track at Startup School. Times when you had no tech other than ol' skool corporate IT beyond SV, London, and a few other spots are gone. My current city, Osijek, a second tier city has some amazing tech that is quite prominent globally. Farmeron (AgTech) was founded here and later acquired, https://www.netocratic.com/farmeron-closes-gideon-brother-111385 https://www.netocratic.com/farmeron-closes-gideon-brother-11... . Infobip (telco infrastructure software) was founded in a semi rural town in Istria region in Croatia. Don't overlook Eastern Europe. Estonia, Czech, Romania, Poland got amazing tech scenes, and the life is good. If you work remotely, options are even more abundant. Don't mind that SV is actually quite vulnerable and gets hit badly by recessions, bursts, etc. As of the US. New Mexico, Colorado, Washington, are all quite livable.

taysic 8y ago
Does your company employ any US citizens in Croatia? I understand that the taxes would not be able to be deducted from one's US taxes - so basically one would pay double taxes.
- wprapido 8y ago
  We do hire some freelancers / contractors / advisors. So far they are in Croatia, Serbia, UK, Malta, France, Cyprus, Israel. Not sure on taxation for the US citizens, sorry.

throwaway_cad 8y ago

Look into Ottawa. Ottawa is a great place to raise a family, coffee (specifically little victories, happy goat, and black squirrel) and food culture is fantastic, great city for outdoor activities such as biking, rowing, hiking, etc..., very dog friendly city, 2 hours away from Montreal, 4.5 from Toronto. Not sure about tech salaries but I'm sure with your experience you can negotiate something similar. If you're looking for a Bay Area vibe I'd say the glebe is as close as you can get.

botten 8y ago

Stockholm, Sweden. Good tech scene, bad housing, but very family friendly (heavily subsidized kindergarten, free schools, paid parental leave, etc.).

ojhughes 8y ago

London but it’s a dirty miserable existence!

noetic_techy 8y ago

Miami, Tampa, Orlando. Cost of living is low in Florida. Although you wont make as much as SV, you will live very well. Plenty of family friendly picture perfect communities for young professionals.

throwaway2016a 8y ago

Cost of living is not much better but I'm personally partial to Boston and you can get houses in the surrounding bedroom communities for not too bad. If you don't mind going North of Boston, southern New Hampshire has a lot to offer but the tech scene is still pretty small.

bradknowles 8y ago

With respect, Austin is full. We don’t need any more ex-Californites moving here and driving up real estate prices even further. Thanks! You’re welcome to visit anytime you like, however.