23 ms·

An ode to Apple’s awful MacBook keyboard

178 points by bprasanna 8y ago

mmjaa 8y ago
Too little, too late. Apple have gotten away with it. Typing this on a very crappy 2018 MBP keyboard, which I absolutely hate. If it weren't for the dependency that my job has on submitting apps to the App Store, I wouldn't be using Apple for anything these days .. sad.
- r_singh 8y ago
  Is the 2018 MBP keyboard different from the 2016-2017 one? I use a MBP 2018 and thought the keyboard was the same as the 2016-2017 MBPs (since the arrival of the touchbar). It's understandable that you dislike the keyboard; feedback is awkward, like a shallow hard button button press as opposed to a keypress. However, over time I have grown to prefer this keyboard over the 2015 one with the deep keys, and can actually type faster on the new one as well. The only thing I find absolutely useless and inconvenient, is the touchbar.
  - mmjaa 8y ago
    I haven't honestly noticed a difference - I had a 2017 MBP last year, and this year upgraded it to the 2018 model .. they both feel like absolute junk to my hands, although I've been typing since the 70's so I've probably not got the young muscles Apple is after these days... And yeah, I find the touchbar useless and distracting, mostly. The thing just flashes stupidly in every app I use, and I'm pretty fatigued at having to ignore it. 20 minutes usage in iTerm is enough to drive me bonkers. Seriously hope that Apple gets its act together for next years MacBook upgrade. I regret this purchase already.
    - jchb 8y ago
      Haven't typed since the 70s, just since the early 90s, but my experience is different. I use a MacBook Pro 2018 15 inch for daily work. I recently briefly used my MacBook Pro 2013 which has the older scissor switch keyboard. I never want to go back to that keyboard again. The newer design feels much better and allows me to type quicker. The touch bar, yeah not very useful for me either, except for logging in with the fingerprint reader which is superb.
  - flattone 8y ago
    Glad you brought this up. I'm on the 14" 16'-17' MBP no-bar. Keyboard seems fine. My previous 15" 14' MBP was nearly my favorite laptop experience ever. Exactly that but newer chassis and as a 14" would buy again. (Typing since late 80s)
    - xvector 8y ago
      Honestly after a week with the new keyboards you get used to them and you don't notice them. If you're coming from a mechanical keyboard or deep-travel keyboard, it feels horrifically shallow at first, but after some time with it you cease to notice or even care. And this is what I think Apple is betting on. If you found the 2014 MacBook Pros enjoyable, I think you'll be even happier with these. I certainly am.
- kawsper 8y ago
  They are forcing us to buy new external keyboards, and it has worked, I have bought myself a mechanical keyboard that I now use with my laptop and carry around. I am now one step closer to just be buying a tablet like an iPad with an external keyboard.
  - bmartensson 8y ago
    I totally agree, the new keyboard on my latest Macbook Pro is just awful to type on. I ended up buying a 60% MK and it was the best thing Ive done in a long time. So much that I have spiraled down the MK hole and now got all kinds of custom keyboards, switches, keycaps, etc. I guess I have to blame Apple for this new hobby of mine.
laichzeit0 8y ago
It really does suck. I have 20 years of professional software development on keyboards, the last 2 years purely on the 2017 MBP, if that in any way “qualifies” my opinion. This is a shit keyboard. Period. Probably not the worst keyboard in existence, but definitely the worst in its price bracket. Combined with the TouchBar I don’t think they could have made my development life any more miserable. So if that was the goal, well done! You succeeded. The trackpad is amazing though.
- jypepin 8y ago
  I don't understand how people can trash so much the keyboard and then say the trackpad is amazing. It's way too big and my palms keep touching/clicking on it while I type, which breaks my flow all the time, especially when I'm coding in like vim and trigger unwanted keys.
  - hyperpower 8y ago
    I had this problem too back when my work laptop was an MBP. Just disable the mouse in your vimrc, you'll be better off for it.
    - jypepin 8y ago
      didn't know I could do that :facepalm: thanks for the hint
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - GuiA 8y ago
    Ergonomics are a weird thing. There’s a huge variation in human anatomy and preferences. What is amazing for you will be terrible for someone else. You can invest a lot of man hours into trying to come up with a solution that works well for the majority (actually most tech hardware companies invest very little in that), but you’re never going to make everyone happy. Especially highly technical users.
qsdevacc 8y ago
Meanwhile I'm over here quite enjoying it. I type on a Filco MJ2 50% of my time and my MBPr keyboard the other 50%. It's not amazing, but it ain't bad either. At least that's my opinion. And that's what this is all about really... opinion. (Except for actual key failures or issues like that) Caps lock fails to properly engage on my 2015 MBP too, its not an issue solely of the new KB. Sure there's issues, but I think people are kicking up WAY too much of a fuss. I too paid >$2000 for my 2017 MBP.
- tobyhinloopen 8y ago
  Your macbook is still new :) Wait until it gets slightly older... I got a 1 yr old 2016 model and the keyboard went horrible in no-time. I just got rid of it and returned to my 2015 MBP. I'm somehow hoping some future model will have normal USB ports, HDMI and a normal keyboard... yeah like that's going to happen.
  - qsdevacc 8y ago
    What do you mean by horrible? I've done A LOT of typing on this, no changes yet. I'm hoping it stays that way ;P
    - tobyhinloopen 8y ago
      Some keys that "feel" different than others, some keys that occasionally get stuck (double-press or no-press), and some keys also sound different than others. The whole keyboard was just a mess in just over a year, and it is not like I abused the machine. I only use it at a desk (either at home or at office) and don't eat at my desk (or do other activities that might cause excessive dirt to come close to the keyboard). My 2015 keyboard (and all other keyboards I've ever owned) are all still fine. I've never experienced keyboard degradation like this. The funny thing is... it isn't even the only one. Others I've tried had the same problem. Do note that I don't disliked the keyboard when it was new. I thought it was just fine. I liked the clicky-ness and it felt like I could type on it pretty fast. The keyboard just got bad pretty fast. Going back to the 2015 model, I hated the 2015 keys as well for a while, for being so "mushy". At least they work great, and the "mushyness" I got used to pretty fast. And I <3 my USB-A/HDMI ports. I hate donglelife... I have 0 USB-C devices
epaga 8y ago
What a rant (and yes, she is VERY late to the party). Other than the dust issue which I did have once (and got a keyboard replacement for), I am in the extreme minority when I say that I absolutely love the keystroke feel of this thing (MBP 2016). It's just the right amount of "clicky-clacky" and yet just shallow enough to hit a sweet spot for me. So yes - they deserve flak for the dust issue. But the key travel and clackiness is really personal taste if you ask me...
- Brometheus 8y ago
  I, too, love the keyboard! <3
- jgh 8y ago
  Yeah I like it too. I'm on a 2017 MBP. I do have to hit it with a can of compressed air every now and again but otherwise it's great. My wife has a 2015 macbook and same thing, just have to hit it with compressed air occasionally.
- jascenso 8y ago
  You are not alone. I feel the same. One of my fav keyboards in terms of usability.
- mrmondo 8y ago
  I agree with you, while I've had both first and second (maybe third if we agree there is a third) of the new gen of keyboards and no problems with any of them - I accept that there has been some sort of design issue causing a higher than 'acceptable' level of faults with them. Regardless as someone who considers themselves a pretty hardcore fan of mechanical keyboards - I for some odd reason enjoy typing on the new ultra low profile keyboards. I can't fully explain it - it just 'feels' right (after an initial bedding in period), I actually type /very/ fast on these keyboards - comparative to my desktop (with a Das series 4 with blue switches) which I personally found quite hard to admit (even to myself). Obviously my experience is skewed due to not having any problems with recently low profile keyboards, but I am still quite astonished at how well I am typing not just on a laptop keyboard - but an ultra low profile keyboard.
FullyFunctional 8y ago
The keyboard isn't great, sure, but I don't hate it nearly as much as I HATE the !@#$!@#$ touchbar, which constantly picks up presses I didn't intend with all sorts of "amusing" side effects.
- flattone 8y ago
  I called Apple (with Apple Care in hand thinking it might somehow give me a negotiation chip) begging to swap my touchbar for no touch .. a few months post purchase). The apple service comment was "high learning curve". The in person visit quickly resolved everything :)
- grecy 8y ago
  Is there are way to completely disable or turn off the touch bar? Can you just "re-map" it so all actions do nothing?
  - jchb 8y ago
    It has various display options. You can make it display only Esc and F1-F12, which is essentially the same as "do nothing" unless the app you are using happens to have bindings for those keys.
  - lloeki 8y ago
    Maybe using BetterTouchTool you could hack it to do mostly nothing: http://vas3k.com/blog/touchbar/ http://vas3k.com/blog/touchbar/
- crispinb 8y ago
  The compulsory fakebar forced me to get my first Windows machine for many years. I do in all honesty find Windows fairly nasty compared to macOS, but having a whole row of useful keys replaced with an effete Englishman's private whimsy was a bridge too far for me. For all the advances in hardware and software, there is no longer a single good (by my lights) laptop option available on the market.
  - 8y ago
atemerev 8y ago
Come on, I wanted exactly this kind of keyboard: barely visible but clicky and tactile, since the early 1990s! Now I have finally got it. It feels great.
nerdbeere 8y ago
The biggest mistake here are those ridiculous arrow keys
- flattone 8y ago
  I'm on board. It's like ... Did someone discover that were not actually using up/down enough for equal arrow area?
- schappim 8y ago
  So true! I'm always hitting up when I'm trying to hit the down arrow.
jasonwen 8y ago
I like the keyboard. Programming for 10+ years and swithching sometimes to Blue Cherry MXs. What I dont like is the touchbar. Completely worthless and in the way. There is definitely a problem with the dust though, two keys already start to act weird and I keep my tech stuff clean.
StreamBright 8y ago
It is kind of funny (not really) how Apple went on a suicide mission with the MBP product line.
- Razengan 8y ago
  MacBooks have been doing quite well in sales for a good while, sometimes outselling competitors. https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/09/2016-macbook-pro-sales/ https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/09/2016-macbook-pro-sales/
  - cpcat 8y ago
    That is not always a good thing. High sales with a bad keyboard is one reason why we see so many people ranting, although i don't think anyone has pinpointed the real issue. Sales can be driven by reputation and now that reputation is slightly being exposed.
    - Razengan 8y ago
      Those are the sales of the first Touch Bar MBP that the loud minority ranted about from the moment it was rumored. Apple's "reputation" has been getting "exposed" since the iPhone 6's BendGate, and before that the iPhone 4's AntennaGate, and since long before that: https://www.macrumors.com/2001/10/23/apples-new-thing-ipod/ https://www.macrumors.com/2001/10/23/apples-new-thing-ipod/ The more things change... :)
  - StreamBright 8y ago
    Absolutely, until they wont because people realize the shortcomings. I am a Mac user in the last ~10 years and most of this time MBPs beat competitors in many regards, making other vendors copy their solutions. As of today I have to make a decision to purchase a new laptop for somebody and MBP is not an option anymore because of the freakin' keyboard. Regardless how good the rest of it this already disqualifies it. I am certainly not the only one having issues with the newer models and soon you are going to see a decline in those numbers if Apple does not address these issues. You can't run on brand value forever.
schappim 8y ago
It really is bad. I'm so close to "office-spacing" this keyboard.
tmvnty 8y ago
Credits to Sod's law, I've purchased a 13' MBP without touch bar two days before Apple announced their latest upgrade to the Pro series with an "improved" keyboard design. "How bad is the keyboard anyway?" I thought, "Is it worth the hassle to change my laptop just to get the latest keyboard design?" So I decided to keep the same laptop and give it a chance. Two months later and today, my previous gen MBP's keyboard's "Down" arrow key on the keyboard have 50/50 chance of responding to your presses, and it's driving me crazy
moltar 8y ago
Ive recently replaced mine under warranty and rep hinted that they’ve reworked it and fixed the original sticky key problems. Time will tell. My broke under a year.
ux-app 8y ago
absolutely agree. The new keyboard is such utter garbage. Awful, awful design. I am positive that Ive approves these designs without actually using them. In a photo they look "magical" (fk me, how pathetic), but in use they are nothing but garbage, what a shame.
ajb257 8y ago
I feel I'm the only person in the universe that's never had an issue with the keyboard, and actively likes it (I don't like much key travel, but I do like clicky keyboards)
ryeguy_24 8y ago
Travel distance. Without some decent amount of travel distance, a keyboard lacks feel. I type 130WPM and can not develop a rhythm on the new MacBook pros. To the day, I love the MacBook Air and previous MacBook Pros circa 2015. In fact, I may buy one on eBay. Apple, give us back travel distance.
berta 8y ago
That awful keyboard is the main reason why I haven't switched from my 2012 Macbook Pro yet
da_murvel 8y ago
I think it's funny that now when Apple happened to make a truly awful keyboard, basically everyone is raging. But PC makers has been building terrible keyboards for years and no one seems to give a damn. Or is everyone just assuming that keyboards are supposed to be that way on PCs? Also, this problem goes beyond laptops, most "affordable" keyboards that I've tried has been horrible as well. I'm typing at the moment at some standard logitech keyboard my fingers cry for every key I press. It's got a cheap feeling to it, the force it takes to press beyond the "bump" is way too great and the keycaps wobble. The only thing I like about it is the profile which is rather low.
- xmodem 8y ago
  I think its more of a problem because Apple laptops are the only option for a lot of people (myself included) because they value having macOS over whatever annoyances the hardware might present. If this years' Dell has a shitty keyboard then you can just get the Lenovo instead or vice versa.
- deleted 8y ago
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- marcus_holmes 8y ago
  I have an Apple USB external keyboard for when I have to do serious typing on the linux laptop... Hopefully Apple will continue making awesome external keyboards and not suddenly decide to mess this up by making them stupidly thin, or removing the extra USB ports (so useful!) or converting them to USB C so need dongles to be useful.
  - mishurov 8y ago
    this! Apple's USB ethernet adapter is a useful thing as well and it works flawlessly with the Linux kernel.
- switch007 8y ago
  How is that funny? Keyboards are decoupled from PCs via USB and PS/2, so if someone wants a better keyboard they can go spend £50-200 on one. There is a wide variety of keyboards. The point of a laptop is integration, and if you want integration you have to have what the manufacturer provides. Also, if you need macOS, and a laptop, there's not much choice. A MacBook Pro can easily be a £500-1000 premium over an equivalent spec Dell laptop, and who knows how much over a similar spec PC. You should get a good keyboard for that money.
montenegrohugo 8y ago
This is funny. I agree that the keyboard is awful, but end-users don't seem to think the same, at least in my anecdotal experience. Both my mother and sister are avid Mac users, and when buying a new keyboard (for the workplace) they both searched for keyboards that emulated the macbook "feel". That is to say, they searched for keyboards that had the same light, floaty (horrible in my opinion) keystroke feel. I don't know if it's a personal thing, or if you just get used to a specific type of keystroke over time, but different people like different keyboards.
- bootsz 8y ago
  > but end-users don't seem to think the same True, but I think a lot of people feel the problem is that Apple has neglected the "Pro" aspect of the "MacBook Pro". The new pro's don't feel like a machine made for professionals; it's tailored for the average casual user. E.g. professional software developers don't need a damn touchbar. I want my effing escape key
colinjoy 8y ago
Switched from 2015 to 2018 model recently. The good: - fingerprint for unlock is a nice convenience - 32GB RAM are nice. A much needed bump, allowing me run some workload on the client that previously required an additional workstation the bad: - keyboard is noisy - touchbar = useless gimick - I actually used the F-keys and ESC a lot, now they are effectively gone. - touchpad much worse with it‘s fake press (i.e at drag and drop) and the increased size means more accidental inputs occur - removal of magsafe ... „it just works“ apparently is too boring - headphone jack moved to the right so the cable gets in the way of the mouse - thermals ... I hear the fans spin up a lot more. - port mono-culture. maybe usb-c is the future, but my present is now full of dongles Overall, I‘d much prefer a 2015 or 2012 MBP enclosure with updated internals. Not to mention the hefty price increase YoY.
- Chris_Chambers 8y ago
  Your comment is very hard to read on mobile. I wish this would be fixed on HN.
- jackpeterfletch 8y ago
  > touchpad much worse with it‘s fake press (i.e at drag and drop) and the increased size means more accidental inputs occur Google around and find out how to turn on 3 finger drag. I have no idea why they decided to hide this feature, but its the only sensible way to drag and drop on the trackpad.
- audunw 8y ago
  > I actually used the F-keys and ESC a lot Then remap Caps Lock to Escape right now. There's no good reason not to, considering how easy MacOS makes it. Can't help you with F-keys though. Never used them myself. On Mac OS there's usually an alternate keyboard shortcut. That row of keys is too far away from home row to be ergonomically useful. My current keyboard doesn't have that row at all. Actually that was a bit of an issue since I'm using Windows with that keyboard, and unlike Mac OS, there's some real need for F-keys. So I had to remap F3 and F4, but that was all. In my opinion, the trackpad is a really great idea on paper, as that row should never be used for frequent typing anyway. And it's pretty close to the screen, so it's not too far to look down. But it doesn't seem like they've managed to make it work in practice. I've seen some people who have had success with some customisation though.
deleted 8y ago
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beloch 8y ago
Damn. This guy almost makes it sound like this is as bad as those puck mice from the late nineties[1]. But seriously, if you bought a laptop without trying out the keyboard first, you deserve what you get. No manufacturer has a perfect track record. Try before you buy. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse
myl 8y ago
I've been a mac user since before the "i" came along. But as my all time favorite 2015 Macbook Pro ages, I'm concerned where to turn next. The current Touchbar Macbook Pro line seems to favor weight and slimness over true "Pro" features like having a desktop grade keyboard, speed and battery stamina. Apple hit near perfectionism with the 2015 keyboard/ current desktop keyboard line, please don't try to put a portable keyboard in a machine made for professionals, just to free an extra fraction of an inch in height. Apple used to make the worlds fastest, yet beautiful to look at, portable workstations. Please don't forget us actual professionals who type all day and care less about fractions of inches and shiny emojis. Call it the Macbook Actual Pro and charge more I don't care, I just wanna get back to work.
- Spacemolte 8y ago
  I feel exactly the same with my late 2013 retine macbook pro. I'm actually thinking about buying the same model used now, just to be sure I have a replacement when my current machine breaks at some point, that seems more reasonable than betting on apple to remove the touch bar, and fix all the issues, in the next version.
- eloisant 8y ago
  I was worried before I got mine, and I'm actually really happy with it. * I want a physical escape key so I configured caps lock to be escape * The touchbar is pretty useless, and having it switching all the time is distracting so I set it to be "fixed" with only the buttons I use * I like the keyboard, I just hope it won't fail me * I really like the sensor to unlock with the fingerprint - I know it's been on thinkpads for years, but it's really convenient So yeah, the only issue left is my fear of seeing the keyboard die because of dust... That's pretty much it.
- m_mueller 8y ago
  I‘ve switched to a T480s Thinkpad. Best keyboard I ever had, OK touchpad, good matte HiDPI screen, USB-A, USB-C, HDMI, Ethernet, 1TB SSD, 24GB Ram, much nicer case than Macbooks even, price 2300 USD. Only downside: Hinge doesn‘t open with one hand and ... it has no MacOS. Takes a while to be as productive on Win or Linux but the hardware is absolutely worth it when compared to the mess that is the new MBPs.
imtemplain 8y ago
I wanted to buy the new Macbook Pro when it first came out, so I walked into an Apple store to check it out. As soon as I wrote my first few words on this keyboard I walked out of the store and was extremely mad at Apple because I would have to wait another two years for a potentially new generation to come out, or to switch to a Windows machine.
666lumberjack 8y ago
The truth is that this is hardly a unique case - most Apple laptops released in the past 10 years have had serious hardware design flaws[1]. In this case it's simply a particularly noticeable/frequent issue. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8
ssijak 8y ago
Ok, I`ll just say it, I like this new mechanism and bigger keys much more than the keyboard before it. I like the size, clicking sound, pressure, precise movements... The only downside is that they had reliability issues, and I hope that they fixed that with 2018 version.
krn 8y ago
Why would any developer prefer a Macbook running MacOS, over a Thinkpad running Linux? Thinkpads give you a full control hardware, and Linux gives you a full control of software.
- jacobush 8y ago
  I feel less old with a Mac.
  - krn 8y ago
    That's probably why they started making silver Thinkpads.
- stephenr 8y ago
  If you're developing iOS or macOS software, you need a Mac. If you want to do live browser testing in all major browsers, you need a Mac, and you can do it with no other hardware, as you can virtualise all of Windows/Linux/Android/iOS under macOS. Based on https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426 https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426, Lenovo support for Linux distro's is a mixed bag of "fuck you" and "Enterprise Edition", so "full control" is likely to mean "Full Responsibility", too. Why would any developer prefer to run a hardware/software combination that has zero support if something fails, and predictably endless issue volleyball between h/w and s/w vendors if you happen to use one of the specific combinations that has support, over running hardware and software that is supported by a single company? Personally, I prefer to spend my working hours actually making money. If you prefer to be endlessly tweaking kernel parameters or driver settings because you updated some software and now your trackpad works in reverse, well then good luck to you sir.
  - krn 8y ago
    > If you're developing iOS or macOS software, you need a Mac. I agree, that's probably the only valid reason for a developer to prefer a Macbook over a Thinkpad: if he needs to develop software for Apple hardware. But in the age of React Native and Electron, I never had to develop specifically for iOS / MacOS. > Lenovo support for Linux distro's is a mixed bag of "fuck you" and "Enterprise Edition", so "full control" is likely to mean "Full Responsibility", too. In practice, most Linux desktop distributions are developed and tested by people working on Thinkpads. In a non-Apple world, it's the OS developers who decide what hardware they support, not the hardware company. > If you prefer to be endlessly tweaking kernel parameters or driver settings because you updated some software and now your trackpad works in reverse, well then good luck to you sir. I don't remember having to tweak a single thing on my default Linux desktop installation since 2013. Everything just works out of the box, if you pick Fedora Workstation or Ubuntu, and your hardware wasn't released 5 days ago. > Personally, I prefer to spend my working hours actually making money. Yet, I see here people spending their working hours complaining about the hardware they bought from Apple, and the software Apple shipped to them with that hardware, as if they had no other choice in life.
erlich 8y ago
The keyboard is great. It means that I get a free battery replacement about every 2 years when keys start getting stuck.
noir-york 8y ago
Apple built its brand on beautiful design. But why do people want beautifully designed objects? Just to own something beautiful? Sure. But also because it makes you look cool, attractive to members of the opposite sex, and earns the jealousy of yours. But a keyboard which sucks ain't cool: sure the externals are great, but wrestling with a stuck capslock is the opposite of exuding je ne sais quoi. Not cool Apple. Not cool. And therefore not beautiful.
- megablast 8y ago
  > But also because it makes you look cool, attractive to members of the opposite sex, and earns the jealousy of yours. You really think a laptop has that effect on people? I do not.
  - noir-york 8y ago
    Oh absolutely! As soon as I flip open my mac in a cafe, every other patron immediately turns towards me to jealously admire my mac before slowly turning away to continue drinking their coffee and work away on their own mac... Of course a laptop doesn't have that effect on people! I was being tongue in cheek. But beautiful objects in general - think fine art, expensive watches, etc - sure.
chmaynard 8y ago
The bio for Natasha Lomas states that she is a senior reporter for TechCrunch. Reporters don't generally write one-sided opinion pieces like this. TechCrunch should make it clear that this is not in any sense a news article or a product review. https://techcrunch.com/author/natasha-lomas/ https://techcrunch.com/author/natasha-lomas/
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
  > Reporters don't generally write one-sided opinion pieces like this. First, they do, and they do it often. Second, it's not just a personal biased opinion without any factual basis.
  - chmaynard 8y ago
    Can you name one reporter at The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal who writes opinion pieces in the paper on a regular basis? Just asking.
ksec 8y ago
In the old days, No one are using Mac for work apart form small group of Professional Artist. Steve Jobs hated the I.T of Cooperate Enterprise because they get to decide what their employees should use, not the user themselves. One of the famous quote from Steve " If we succeed, they will buy them, if we don't, they won't! It will all sort itself out" [1]. The problem now are Apple products are getting bought no matter what they make. Businesses are now buying more Mac than ever. Whether we like it or not. The sales figure aren't showing how we vote with our wallet. The Mac Ecosystem has morphed itself into a mini PC market where its replacement unit are sustainable for the Mac business as a whole. There should be now close to ~120M Mac users and an annual 25M Mac sales unit, healthy for a 4 years replacement cycle. And it is frustrating because 3 years after this Keyboard introduction and despite many of its users best effort and cried for improvement. Nothing has been done. The 2018 MacBook Pro keyboard are still getting double click and non working keys on Reddit and twitter. ( Sorry I can no longer locate the thread ). I guess more reports will come in as time pass by. And it is not as quiet as the MacBook Air Keyboard either. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65_PmYipnpk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65_PmYipnpk
cpcat 8y ago
You know what's worse? Their bluetooth keyboard is not backlit so you can't use that as an alternative either.
dbg31415 8y ago
I hated the "new" pre-2018 MBP keyboards. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=dbg31415%20keyboard&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=dbg31415%20keyboard&sort=byPop... But... I think with the new 2018s they've done some nice things. You still have a stupid stupid touch bar on the 15s. I have a 13 without the touch bar, and it's a billion times better. You still have a silly silly large track pad (and it has some bend to it in the middle... I don't like it at all). BUT... the keys have just a tad more bounce to them. I think Apple did something to help with the dust issue, and a side effect is that the keys feel just a bit more responsive as you type. Not saying it's great, or better than past versions, or even good yet... but it's a step in the right direction. And honestly it's probably all we'll ever get from Apple... so I'll take it. Hooray for keyboards that aren't quite as bad as the "new" pre-2018s!
- lloeki 8y ago
  > I have a 13 without the touch bar ... Hooray for keyboards that aren't quite as bad as the "new" pre-2018 Then it's a 2017 as the FN one was untouched by the 2018 refresh.
anentropic 8y ago
It seems like Apple aren't actually practicing design any more instead we have the superficial appearance of design - thinner, lighter, but less useful same with innovation - what is the TouchBar except a desperate attempt to innovate, achieving only the superficial appearance of innovation while actually producing something of no value
toomanybeersies 8y ago
I find it OK to type with. Not absolutely terrible like the keyboards in the high school computer labs, and not great like <insert mechanical keyboard here> (I've never used a mechanical keyboard). The main annoyance I have with it is that it's incredibly loud to type on when in meeting rooms, which is the only time I really use it (I have a full size Apple m=Magic Keyboard I use at my desk). It's obnoxious, especially if you're not using an external mic.
jorisw 8y ago
To everyone hating on the TouchBar - as you should - seriously consider the entry level MBP and just max out the specs. Voila, physical Esc and F keys. Adios idiotic touch strip. Only downside is that only 13”es are sold this way.
- davidandgoliath 8y ago
  And it's limited to two ports, at least in earlier editions.
jlengrand 8y ago
I bought my first MBP in 2017. Love the machine. Hate the keyboard. It is just very bad. I only wished Apple acknowledged this and offered something as an apology. After all, this is what any car / phone / anything else company would do. It's fine to make mistakes, just embrace them and send love back to your users.
jorisw 8y ago
I could have lived with all its faults if the arrow keys were remotely usable. They are not. I challenge you to blindly find the up arrow without pressing the down arrow.
mark_l_watson 8y ago
It all depends on what you want in a laptop. At work I have the largest (size, processing power, memory) MBP and I find the keyboard to be so-so; not to bad, but don’t love it. This laptop is a clunker to carry around, so optimizing for a thin keyboard doesn’t make sense to me. For my personal laptop I have an 18 month old 12 inch MacBook and I love it. The keyboard is fine because I want my personal laptop to be small and light, with a good display.
doque 8y ago
I got the first model with the new butterfly keyboard and the touchbar in April 2017 and I still hate it. I appreciate the idea of adding a touchbar for regular users. After all, it might be nicer for them to just press "Next Song" when using Spotify than fiddling around with Fn+F*. But for power users/developers, why do the most powerful MBP models come with these useless gimmicks? I'm using Dongles on 3/4 of the USB-C ports right now and that's not going to change anytime soon. I wish Apple listened to developer's voices a bit more. To me, it's not a matter of price, either. I'd gladly pay more for a MBP with more/different ports and without a touchbar than I would for this model.
notjtrig 8y ago
Isn't a bad keyboard part of the design, Apple has aways been removing I/O options and locking down the software. A bad keyboard is just the natural evolution of the concept. Why should they give the average person the ability to type? Their buisness model is focused on passive consumption.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
It's a great keyboard ... when it's working. It's just not very robust.
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theonemind 8y ago
I actually find it a great keyboard. However, I have mild RSI, and both travel and force aggravate it. I like cherry MX blue switches because I can avoid using much force, and I don't have to bottom out the keys, so I have a long habit of stopping my keypress when I get tactile feedback that the keyboard has registered the press. So, I think a lot of people who don't like it could probably like it if they approached it like I do. And, in my experience, you don't need that key travel. You have to get used to stopping the keypress when it registers the press. However, the keyboard gives very clear feedback about that. If you compare it to other keyboards you use and expect the same thing, it will disappoint you. Accept it as something different that you have to use and think about differently. It does not hamper my speed or accuracy at all. I can type about 80 WPM with a negligible error rate (<1%. Obviously, the error rate goes up if I type faster.) I can type perhaps even more quickly and accurately on this keyboard than any I have ever used, and key travel literally just wastes your time and aggravates (perhaps even causes) RSI.
whywhywhywhy 8y ago
Getting real tired of the Apple apologists spinning it that Apple keyboards have never been reliable and this is perfectly normal. My TiBook G4 still works at 16 years of age, my 2006 Alu iMac keyboard is still used daily, my 4 year old MBP keyboard works fine. My 8 month old USB-C MBP has key deadzones and 5 glitchy keys and a few keys significantly louder than others. It’s crazy how apple managed to turn my most loved machine into my most hated with just a single design update.
huhaaha 8y ago
I am truely disappointed here. Looking at the article's title I was expecting an elegant classical english poem.
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temporallobe 8y ago
Meh. I've had everything from super-clicky mechanical KBs (RapidFire or something kike that) to the flat butterfly keys on the MacBook. Like learning to drive or play guitar, it becomes muscle memory after a while. I've gotten used almost everything at this point in my life. However what I will NOT accept is a virtual keyboard. I need at least some kind of tactile feedback.
gumby 8y ago
FWIW I've writen about 60Kloc on a 2016 MacBook 12 (i.e. not "pro") and it turns out to have worked pretty well for me. All of my development is in Emacs, so I'm pretty keyboard-dependent. That doesn't mean it's been great: I went through three of keyboards, and would be on my fourth except that the MB had an unfortunate water incident. So in two years I had almost two weeks of not having my machine available -- that's pretty bad! New I've had a 2018 MBP for about three weeks and the keyboard is better (but the machine is a lot heavier) and so far no kbd failures. (The touchbar is pretty worthless to me but mostly harmless). (Honestly if you're typing in a lot of code and just typing make and lldb the MB was a great ultralight machine. YEs, building our whole system took a while but mostly you're just ending and recompiling one module and it's still faster than most several-year-old machines, which in the Mac world could reasonably still be in use. It doesn't have the horsepower for those huge IDEs but I don't use them anyway. They seem to use more cycles than the compilers!)
iliasku 8y ago
ok here's one thing almost no one mentions and is hard for me to understand: i do almost all of my development work on my desk, where i have an external keyboard of my liking connected to my macbook. i only use the macbook's keyboard when i'm travelling, and mostly for typing the first 2 letters of the website i want to open on my browser. don't understand why people fuss about so much about the keyboard: if you don't like it just use an external one. what am i missing?
purplezooey 8y ago
They should make a Cherry MX MBP. that would be badass.
- purplezooey 8y ago
  who's the chotch that downvoted this
  - dang 8y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? This one in particular broke the site guidelines - see the last bit of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
davemp 8y ago
This may be a bit off topic, forgive me. Last spring my laptop running linux finally gave up and I decided to give the MBP a try. The pros: - MUCH better hardware than anything else on the market. - The keyboard is great for me. Leaving mech keys on desktop doesn't feel as bad as it used to. I haven't encountered any inconsistency this article complains about with so many words--maybe I'm an outlier. - MacOS requires just about zero maintenance. - Better consumer software (DRM) compatibility (audible, hbogo, etc). - Better creative software compatibility. - The OS is pretty well tuned for battery life (I'm sure linux can be, I just didn't expend the effort). The cons: - Much more difficult to customize. I do miss just how tuned I got my linux setup with a tiling WM (i3). I haven't lost significant productivity though. - Brew is not a first class package manager. Pacman/AUR and apt are a dream for developers. - Boot time is noticeably slower. At least it don't drop you into the OS with about 1,000 other processes in the scheduler like windows does. This list is not exhaustive. But I'd not feel bad saying that the MBP is the best laptop experience. On a side note I also switched to iOS from android and am similarly satisfied. For a no fuss, non free eco-system apple is still king despite any recent stumbles.
newscracker 8y ago
So how come no senior executive has been fired for this and the overall scene of Macs languishing for years? This is certainly far from how Apple desires its products and product lines to be perceived and written about. Scott Forstall was fired (IMO, for a lot less) for the Apple Maps fiasco, though he could’ve contributed a lot more to the company if he were still around. Something seems to be rotten right from the top, and there’s no honest acknowledgement of how bad the state of affairs is on the Mac side.
- orev 8y ago
  Companies predictably focus on the areas where they make the most profit. For Apple, that’s clearly Phones, App Store, iTunes, even iAds. The laptop hardware and OS are clearly in a minority when compared to those big earners, so they just don’t focus any attention on them.
  - newscracker 8y ago
    But as prominent writers in the Apple/Mac space have been writing for years, the state of the Mac has been terrible for a long time. The absolute requirement of having a Mac to develop software for iOS, tvOS and watchOS makes it necessary that Apple focus on the Macs — even if the range of options is limited — to produce things that will help its primary market on iOS to grow. Selling old and outdated hardware for high prices (set during product launch time) is even more insulting to the Apple brand. I know that Apple’s organizational structure is also to blame, but clearly it shouldn’t take so many years to even get started on fixing things and showing some results. Apple is losing with this attitude and negligence. One can only hope that it starts showing that it is serious about walking the talk sometime soon.
    - Lio 8y ago
      This is a pretty personal opinion so feel free to disagree but Mac OS X era Apple seemed to have the same air of Unix cool as Silicon Graphics, Sun or NexT back in the day. It was probably never true but they gave the illusion of caring intensely about making delightful products. All that changed when Apple's market interests shifted to larger, more lucrative consumer markets. Now things like good emoji support are more important that keyboard shortcuts for window management. Apple is doing exactly what they should for their shareholders, I guess, but since they've gone all "Barney the Dinosaur" they just doesn't have the magic anymore for me. :( Now their stuff just feels like dodgy "smart" TVs full of janky animations and features you know some exec thought was cool for a day. If Apple was still Apple they'd be able to make announcements at their keynotes about fundamental stuff missing from macOS like, say, package management and make it sound cool. The magic is that they'd get non-nerds to care about it too.
bgdkbtv 8y ago
I don't understand why everyone is so unhappy with it. Am I the only one absolutely loves this keyboard? I think this is the best keyboard on any laptop, and I wish I could have an external keyboard that is just like this one.

178 points by bprasanna 8y ago

Too little, too late. Apple have gotten away with it. Typing this on a very crappy 2018 MBP keyboard, which I absolutely hate. If it weren't for the dependency that my job has on submitting apps to the App Store, I wouldn't be using Apple for anything these days .. sad.

r_singh 8y ago
Is the 2018 MBP keyboard different from the 2016-2017 one? I use a MBP 2018 and thought the keyboard was the same as the 2016-2017 MBPs (since the arrival of the touchbar). It's understandable that you dislike the keyboard; feedback is awkward, like a shallow hard button button press as opposed to a keypress. However, over time I have grown to prefer this keyboard over the 2015 one with the deep keys, and can actually type faster on the new one as well. The only thing I find absolutely useless and inconvenient, is the touchbar.
- mmjaa 8y ago
  I haven't honestly noticed a difference - I had a 2017 MBP last year, and this year upgraded it to the 2018 model .. they both feel like absolute junk to my hands, although I've been typing since the 70's so I've probably not got the young muscles Apple is after these days... And yeah, I find the touchbar useless and distracting, mostly. The thing just flashes stupidly in every app I use, and I'm pretty fatigued at having to ignore it. 20 minutes usage in iTerm is enough to drive me bonkers. Seriously hope that Apple gets its act together for next years MacBook upgrade. I regret this purchase already.
  - jchb 8y ago
    Haven't typed since the 70s, just since the early 90s, but my experience is different. I use a MacBook Pro 2018 15 inch for daily work. I recently briefly used my MacBook Pro 2013 which has the older scissor switch keyboard. I never want to go back to that keyboard again. The newer design feels much better and allows me to type quicker. The touch bar, yeah not very useful for me either, except for logging in with the fingerprint reader which is superb.
- flattone 8y ago
  Glad you brought this up. I'm on the 14" 16'-17' MBP no-bar. Keyboard seems fine. My previous 15" 14' MBP was nearly my favorite laptop experience ever. Exactly that but newer chassis and as a 14" would buy again. (Typing since late 80s)
  - xvector 8y ago
    Honestly after a week with the new keyboards you get used to them and you don't notice them. If you're coming from a mechanical keyboard or deep-travel keyboard, it feels horrifically shallow at first, but after some time with it you cease to notice or even care. And this is what I think Apple is betting on. If you found the 2014 MacBook Pros enjoyable, I think you'll be even happier with these. I certainly am.
kawsper 8y ago
They are forcing us to buy new external keyboards, and it has worked, I have bought myself a mechanical keyboard that I now use with my laptop and carry around. I am now one step closer to just be buying a tablet like an iPad with an external keyboard.
- bmartensson 8y ago
  I totally agree, the new keyboard on my latest Macbook Pro is just awful to type on. I ended up buying a 60% MK and it was the best thing Ive done in a long time. So much that I have spiraled down the MK hole and now got all kinds of custom keyboards, switches, keycaps, etc. I guess I have to blame Apple for this new hobby of mine.

laichzeit0 8y ago

It really does suck. I have 20 years of professional software development on keyboards, the last 2 years purely on the 2017 MBP, if that in any way “qualifies” my opinion. This is a shit keyboard. Period. Probably not the worst keyboard in existence, but definitely the worst in its price bracket. Combined with the TouchBar I don’t think they could have made my development life any more miserable. So if that was the goal, well done! You succeeded. The trackpad is amazing though.

jypepin 8y ago
I don't understand how people can trash so much the keyboard and then say the trackpad is amazing. It's way too big and my palms keep touching/clicking on it while I type, which breaks my flow all the time, especially when I'm coding in like vim and trigger unwanted keys.
- hyperpower 8y ago
  I had this problem too back when my work laptop was an MBP. Just disable the mouse in your vimrc, you'll be better off for it.
  - jypepin 8y ago
    didn't know I could do that :facepalm: thanks for the hint
- deleted 8y ago
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- GuiA 8y ago
  Ergonomics are a weird thing. There’s a huge variation in human anatomy and preferences. What is amazing for you will be terrible for someone else. You can invest a lot of man hours into trying to come up with a solution that works well for the majority (actually most tech hardware companies invest very little in that), but you’re never going to make everyone happy. Especially highly technical users.

qsdevacc 8y ago

Meanwhile I'm over here quite enjoying it. I type on a Filco MJ2 50% of my time and my MBPr keyboard the other 50%. It's not amazing, but it ain't bad either. At least that's my opinion. And that's what this is all about really... opinion. (Except for actual key failures or issues like that) Caps lock fails to properly engage on my 2015 MBP too, its not an issue solely of the new KB. Sure there's issues, but I think people are kicking up WAY too much of a fuss. I too paid >$2000 for my 2017 MBP.

tobyhinloopen 8y ago
Your macbook is still new :) Wait until it gets slightly older... I got a 1 yr old 2016 model and the keyboard went horrible in no-time. I just got rid of it and returned to my 2015 MBP. I'm somehow hoping some future model will have normal USB ports, HDMI and a normal keyboard... yeah like that's going to happen.
- qsdevacc 8y ago
  What do you mean by horrible? I've done A LOT of typing on this, no changes yet. I'm hoping it stays that way ;P
  - tobyhinloopen 8y ago
    Some keys that "feel" different than others, some keys that occasionally get stuck (double-press or no-press), and some keys also sound different than others. The whole keyboard was just a mess in just over a year, and it is not like I abused the machine. I only use it at a desk (either at home or at office) and don't eat at my desk (or do other activities that might cause excessive dirt to come close to the keyboard). My 2015 keyboard (and all other keyboards I've ever owned) are all still fine. I've never experienced keyboard degradation like this. The funny thing is... it isn't even the only one. Others I've tried had the same problem. Do note that I don't disliked the keyboard when it was new. I thought it was just fine. I liked the clicky-ness and it felt like I could type on it pretty fast. The keyboard just got bad pretty fast. Going back to the 2015 model, I hated the 2015 keys as well for a while, for being so "mushy". At least they work great, and the "mushyness" I got used to pretty fast. And I <3 my USB-A/HDMI ports. I hate donglelife... I have 0 USB-C devices

epaga 8y ago

What a rant (and yes, she is VERY late to the party). Other than the dust issue which I did have once (and got a keyboard replacement for), I am in the extreme minority when I say that I absolutely love the keystroke feel of this thing (MBP 2016). It's just the right amount of "clicky-clacky" and yet just shallow enough to hit a sweet spot for me. So yes - they deserve flak for the dust issue. But the key travel and clackiness is really personal taste if you ask me...

Brometheus 8y ago
I, too, love the keyboard! <3
jgh 8y ago
Yeah I like it too. I'm on a 2017 MBP. I do have to hit it with a can of compressed air every now and again but otherwise it's great. My wife has a 2015 macbook and same thing, just have to hit it with compressed air occasionally.
jascenso 8y ago
You are not alone. I feel the same. One of my fav keyboards in terms of usability.
mrmondo 8y ago
I agree with you, while I've had both first and second (maybe third if we agree there is a third) of the new gen of keyboards and no problems with any of them - I accept that there has been some sort of design issue causing a higher than 'acceptable' level of faults with them. Regardless as someone who considers themselves a pretty hardcore fan of mechanical keyboards - I for some odd reason enjoy typing on the new ultra low profile keyboards. I can't fully explain it - it just 'feels' right (after an initial bedding in period), I actually type /very/ fast on these keyboards - comparative to my desktop (with a Das series 4 with blue switches) which I personally found quite hard to admit (even to myself). Obviously my experience is skewed due to not having any problems with recently low profile keyboards, but I am still quite astonished at how well I am typing not just on a laptop keyboard - but an ultra low profile keyboard.

FullyFunctional 8y ago

The keyboard isn't great, sure, but I don't hate it nearly as much as I HATE the !@#$!@#$ touchbar, which constantly picks up presses I didn't intend with all sorts of "amusing" side effects.

flattone 8y ago
I called Apple (with Apple Care in hand thinking it might somehow give me a negotiation chip) begging to swap my touchbar for no touch .. a few months post purchase). The apple service comment was "high learning curve". The in person visit quickly resolved everything :)
grecy 8y ago
Is there are way to completely disable or turn off the touch bar? Can you just "re-map" it so all actions do nothing?
- jchb 8y ago
  It has various display options. You can make it display only Esc and F1-F12, which is essentially the same as "do nothing" unless the app you are using happens to have bindings for those keys.
- lloeki 8y ago
  Maybe using BetterTouchTool you could hack it to do mostly nothing: http://vas3k.com/blog/touchbar/ http://vas3k.com/blog/touchbar/
crispinb 8y ago
The compulsory fakebar forced me to get my first Windows machine for many years. I do in all honesty find Windows fairly nasty compared to macOS, but having a whole row of useful keys replaced with an effete Englishman's private whimsy was a bridge too far for me. For all the advances in hardware and software, there is no longer a single good (by my lights) laptop option available on the market.
- 8y ago

atemerev 8y ago

Come on, I wanted exactly this kind of keyboard: barely visible but clicky and tactile, since the early 1990s! Now I have finally got it. It feels great.

nerdbeere 8y ago

The biggest mistake here are those ridiculous arrow keys

flattone 8y ago
I'm on board. It's like ... Did someone discover that were not actually using up/down enough for equal arrow area?
schappim 8y ago
So true! I'm always hitting up when I'm trying to hit the down arrow.

jasonwen 8y ago

I like the keyboard. Programming for 10+ years and swithching sometimes to Blue Cherry MXs. What I dont like is the touchbar. Completely worthless and in the way. There is definitely a problem with the dust though, two keys already start to act weird and I keep my tech stuff clean.

StreamBright 8y ago

It is kind of funny (not really) how Apple went on a suicide mission with the MBP product line.

Razengan 8y ago
MacBooks have been doing quite well in sales for a good while, sometimes outselling competitors. https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/09/2016-macbook-pro-sales/ https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/09/2016-macbook-pro-sales/
- cpcat 8y ago
  That is not always a good thing. High sales with a bad keyboard is one reason why we see so many people ranting, although i don't think anyone has pinpointed the real issue. Sales can be driven by reputation and now that reputation is slightly being exposed.
  - Razengan 8y ago
    Those are the sales of the first Touch Bar MBP that the loud minority ranted about from the moment it was rumored. Apple's "reputation" has been getting "exposed" since the iPhone 6's BendGate, and before that the iPhone 4's AntennaGate, and since long before that: https://www.macrumors.com/2001/10/23/apples-new-thing-ipod/ https://www.macrumors.com/2001/10/23/apples-new-thing-ipod/ The more things change... :)
- StreamBright 8y ago
  Absolutely, until they wont because people realize the shortcomings. I am a Mac user in the last ~10 years and most of this time MBPs beat competitors in many regards, making other vendors copy their solutions. As of today I have to make a decision to purchase a new laptop for somebody and MBP is not an option anymore because of the freakin' keyboard. Regardless how good the rest of it this already disqualifies it. I am certainly not the only one having issues with the newer models and soon you are going to see a decline in those numbers if Apple does not address these issues. You can't run on brand value forever.

schappim 8y ago

It really is bad. I'm so close to "office-spacing" this keyboard.

tmvnty 8y ago

Credits to Sod's law, I've purchased a 13' MBP without touch bar two days before Apple announced their latest upgrade to the Pro series with an "improved" keyboard design. "How bad is the keyboard anyway?" I thought, "Is it worth the hassle to change my laptop just to get the latest keyboard design?" So I decided to keep the same laptop and give it a chance. Two months later and today, my previous gen MBP's keyboard's "Down" arrow key on the keyboard have 50/50 chance of responding to your presses, and it's driving me crazy

moltar 8y ago

Ive recently replaced mine under warranty and rep hinted that they’ve reworked it and fixed the original sticky key problems. Time will tell. My broke under a year.

ux-app 8y ago

absolutely agree. The new keyboard is such utter garbage. Awful, awful design. I am positive that Ive approves these designs without actually using them. In a photo they look "magical" (fk me, how pathetic), but in use they are nothing but garbage, what a shame.

ajb257 8y ago

I feel I'm the only person in the universe that's never had an issue with the keyboard, and actively likes it (I don't like much key travel, but I do like clicky keyboards)

ryeguy_24 8y ago

Travel distance. Without some decent amount of travel distance, a keyboard lacks feel. I type 130WPM and can not develop a rhythm on the new MacBook pros. To the day, I love the MacBook Air and previous MacBook Pros circa 2015. In fact, I may buy one on eBay. Apple, give us back travel distance.

berta 8y ago

That awful keyboard is the main reason why I haven't switched from my 2012 Macbook Pro yet

da_murvel 8y ago

I think it's funny that now when Apple happened to make a truly awful keyboard, basically everyone is raging. But PC makers has been building terrible keyboards for years and no one seems to give a damn. Or is everyone just assuming that keyboards are supposed to be that way on PCs? Also, this problem goes beyond laptops, most "affordable" keyboards that I've tried has been horrible as well. I'm typing at the moment at some standard logitech keyboard my fingers cry for every key I press. It's got a cheap feeling to it, the force it takes to press beyond the "bump" is way too great and the keycaps wobble. The only thing I like about it is the profile which is rather low.

xmodem 8y ago
I think its more of a problem because Apple laptops are the only option for a lot of people (myself included) because they value having macOS over whatever annoyances the hardware might present. If this years' Dell has a shitty keyboard then you can just get the Lenovo instead or vice versa.
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marcus_holmes 8y ago
I have an Apple USB external keyboard for when I have to do serious typing on the linux laptop... Hopefully Apple will continue making awesome external keyboards and not suddenly decide to mess this up by making them stupidly thin, or removing the extra USB ports (so useful!) or converting them to USB C so need dongles to be useful.
- mishurov 8y ago
  this! Apple's USB ethernet adapter is a useful thing as well and it works flawlessly with the Linux kernel.
switch007 8y ago
How is that funny? Keyboards are decoupled from PCs via USB and PS/2, so if someone wants a better keyboard they can go spend £50-200 on one. There is a wide variety of keyboards. The point of a laptop is integration, and if you want integration you have to have what the manufacturer provides. Also, if you need macOS, and a laptop, there's not much choice. A MacBook Pro can easily be a £500-1000 premium over an equivalent spec Dell laptop, and who knows how much over a similar spec PC. You should get a good keyboard for that money.

montenegrohugo 8y ago

This is funny. I agree that the keyboard is awful, but end-users don't seem to think the same, at least in my anecdotal experience. Both my mother and sister are avid Mac users, and when buying a new keyboard (for the workplace) they both searched for keyboards that emulated the macbook "feel". That is to say, they searched for keyboards that had the same light, floaty (horrible in my opinion) keystroke feel. I don't know if it's a personal thing, or if you just get used to a specific type of keystroke over time, but different people like different keyboards.

bootsz 8y ago
> but end-users don't seem to think the same True, but I think a lot of people feel the problem is that Apple has neglected the "Pro" aspect of the "MacBook Pro". The new pro's don't feel like a machine made for professionals; it's tailored for the average casual user. E.g. professional software developers don't need a damn touchbar. I want my effing escape key

colinjoy 8y ago

Switched from 2015 to 2018 model recently. The good: - fingerprint for unlock is a nice convenience - 32GB RAM are nice. A much needed bump, allowing me run some workload on the client that previously required an additional workstation the bad: - keyboard is noisy - touchbar = useless gimick - I actually used the F-keys and ESC a lot, now they are effectively gone. - touchpad much worse with it‘s fake press (i.e at drag and drop) and the increased size means more accidental inputs occur - removal of magsafe ... „it just works“ apparently is too boring - headphone jack moved to the right so the cable gets in the way of the mouse - thermals ... I hear the fans spin up a lot more. - port mono-culture. maybe usb-c is the future, but my present is now full of dongles Overall, I‘d much prefer a 2015 or 2012 MBP enclosure with updated internals. Not to mention the hefty price increase YoY.

Chris_Chambers 8y ago
Your comment is very hard to read on mobile. I wish this would be fixed on HN.
jackpeterfletch 8y ago
> touchpad much worse with it‘s fake press (i.e at drag and drop) and the increased size means more accidental inputs occur Google around and find out how to turn on 3 finger drag. I have no idea why they decided to hide this feature, but its the only sensible way to drag and drop on the trackpad.
audunw 8y ago
> I actually used the F-keys and ESC a lot Then remap Caps Lock to Escape right now. There's no good reason not to, considering how easy MacOS makes it. Can't help you with F-keys though. Never used them myself. On Mac OS there's usually an alternate keyboard shortcut. That row of keys is too far away from home row to be ergonomically useful. My current keyboard doesn't have that row at all. Actually that was a bit of an issue since I'm using Windows with that keyboard, and unlike Mac OS, there's some real need for F-keys. So I had to remap F3 and F4, but that was all. In my opinion, the trackpad is a really great idea on paper, as that row should never be used for frequent typing anyway. And it's pretty close to the screen, so it's not too far to look down. But it doesn't seem like they've managed to make it work in practice. I've seen some people who have had success with some customisation though.

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beloch 8y ago

Damn. This guy almost makes it sound like this is as bad as those puck mice from the late nineties[1]. But seriously, if you bought a laptop without trying out the keyboard first, you deserve what you get. No manufacturer has a perfect track record. Try before you buy. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_USB_Mouse

myl 8y ago

I've been a mac user since before the "i" came along. But as my all time favorite 2015 Macbook Pro ages, I'm concerned where to turn next. The current Touchbar Macbook Pro line seems to favor weight and slimness over true "Pro" features like having a desktop grade keyboard, speed and battery stamina. Apple hit near perfectionism with the 2015 keyboard/ current desktop keyboard line, please don't try to put a portable keyboard in a machine made for professionals, just to free an extra fraction of an inch in height. Apple used to make the worlds fastest, yet beautiful to look at, portable workstations. Please don't forget us actual professionals who type all day and care less about fractions of inches and shiny emojis. Call it the Macbook Actual Pro and charge more I don't care, I just wanna get back to work.

Spacemolte 8y ago
I feel exactly the same with my late 2013 retine macbook pro. I'm actually thinking about buying the same model used now, just to be sure I have a replacement when my current machine breaks at some point, that seems more reasonable than betting on apple to remove the touch bar, and fix all the issues, in the next version.
eloisant 8y ago
I was worried before I got mine, and I'm actually really happy with it. * I want a physical escape key so I configured caps lock to be escape * The touchbar is pretty useless, and having it switching all the time is distracting so I set it to be "fixed" with only the buttons I use * I like the keyboard, I just hope it won't fail me * I really like the sensor to unlock with the fingerprint - I know it's been on thinkpads for years, but it's really convenient So yeah, the only issue left is my fear of seeing the keyboard die because of dust... That's pretty much it.
m_mueller 8y ago
I‘ve switched to a T480s Thinkpad. Best keyboard I ever had, OK touchpad, good matte HiDPI screen, USB-A, USB-C, HDMI, Ethernet, 1TB SSD, 24GB Ram, much nicer case than Macbooks even, price 2300 USD. Only downside: Hinge doesn‘t open with one hand and ... it has no MacOS. Takes a while to be as productive on Win or Linux but the hardware is absolutely worth it when compared to the mess that is the new MBPs.

imtemplain 8y ago

I wanted to buy the new Macbook Pro when it first came out, so I walked into an Apple store to check it out. As soon as I wrote my first few words on this keyboard I walked out of the store and was extremely mad at Apple because I would have to wait another two years for a potentially new generation to come out, or to switch to a Windows machine.

666lumberjack 8y ago

The truth is that this is hardly a unique case - most Apple laptops released in the past 10 years have had serious hardware design flaws[1]. In this case it's simply a particularly noticeable/frequent issue. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8

ssijak 8y ago

Ok, I`ll just say it, I like this new mechanism and bigger keys much more than the keyboard before it. I like the size, clicking sound, pressure, precise movements... The only downside is that they had reliability issues, and I hope that they fixed that with 2018 version.

krn 8y ago

Why would any developer prefer a Macbook running MacOS, over a Thinkpad running Linux? Thinkpads give you a full control hardware, and Linux gives you a full control of software.

jacobush 8y ago
I feel less old with a Mac.
- krn 8y ago
  That's probably why they started making silver Thinkpads.
stephenr 8y ago
If you're developing iOS or macOS software, you need a Mac. If you want to do live browser testing in all major browsers, you need a Mac, and you can do it with no other hardware, as you can virtualise all of Windows/Linux/Android/iOS under macOS. Based on https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426 https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426, Lenovo support for Linux distro's is a mixed bag of "fuck you" and "Enterprise Edition", so "full control" is likely to mean "Full Responsibility", too. Why would any developer prefer to run a hardware/software combination that has zero support if something fails, and predictably endless issue volleyball between h/w and s/w vendors if you happen to use one of the specific combinations that has support, over running hardware and software that is supported by a single company? Personally, I prefer to spend my working hours actually making money. If you prefer to be endlessly tweaking kernel parameters or driver settings because you updated some software and now your trackpad works in reverse, well then good luck to you sir.
- krn 8y ago
  > If you're developing iOS or macOS software, you need a Mac. I agree, that's probably the only valid reason for a developer to prefer a Macbook over a Thinkpad: if he needs to develop software for Apple hardware. But in the age of React Native and Electron, I never had to develop specifically for iOS / MacOS. > Lenovo support for Linux distro's is a mixed bag of "fuck you" and "Enterprise Edition", so "full control" is likely to mean "Full Responsibility", too. In practice, most Linux desktop distributions are developed and tested by people working on Thinkpads. In a non-Apple world, it's the OS developers who decide what hardware they support, not the hardware company. > If you prefer to be endlessly tweaking kernel parameters or driver settings because you updated some software and now your trackpad works in reverse, well then good luck to you sir. I don't remember having to tweak a single thing on my default Linux desktop installation since 2013. Everything just works out of the box, if you pick Fedora Workstation or Ubuntu, and your hardware wasn't released 5 days ago. > Personally, I prefer to spend my working hours actually making money. Yet, I see here people spending their working hours complaining about the hardware they bought from Apple, and the software Apple shipped to them with that hardware, as if they had no other choice in life.

erlich 8y ago

The keyboard is great. It means that I get a free battery replacement about every 2 years when keys start getting stuck.

noir-york 8y ago

Apple built its brand on beautiful design. But why do people want beautifully designed objects? Just to own something beautiful? Sure. But also because it makes you look cool, attractive to members of the opposite sex, and earns the jealousy of yours. But a keyboard which sucks ain't cool: sure the externals are great, but wrestling with a stuck capslock is the opposite of exuding je ne sais quoi. Not cool Apple. Not cool. And therefore not beautiful.

megablast 8y ago
> But also because it makes you look cool, attractive to members of the opposite sex, and earns the jealousy of yours. You really think a laptop has that effect on people? I do not.
- noir-york 8y ago
  Oh absolutely! As soon as I flip open my mac in a cafe, every other patron immediately turns towards me to jealously admire my mac before slowly turning away to continue drinking their coffee and work away on their own mac... Of course a laptop doesn't have that effect on people! I was being tongue in cheek. But beautiful objects in general - think fine art, expensive watches, etc - sure.

chmaynard 8y ago

The bio for Natasha Lomas states that she is a senior reporter for TechCrunch. Reporters don't generally write one-sided opinion pieces like this. TechCrunch should make it clear that this is not in any sense a news article or a product review. https://techcrunch.com/author/natasha-lomas/ https://techcrunch.com/author/natasha-lomas/

dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
> Reporters don't generally write one-sided opinion pieces like this. First, they do, and they do it often. Second, it's not just a personal biased opinion without any factual basis.
- chmaynard 8y ago
  Can you name one reporter at The New York Times or The Wall Street Journal who writes opinion pieces in the paper on a regular basis? Just asking.

ksec 8y ago

In the old days, No one are using Mac for work apart form small group of Professional Artist. Steve Jobs hated the I.T of Cooperate Enterprise because they get to decide what their employees should use, not the user themselves. One of the famous quote from Steve " If we succeed, they will buy them, if we don't, they won't! It will all sort itself out" [1]. The problem now are Apple products are getting bought no matter what they make. Businesses are now buying more Mac than ever. Whether we like it or not. The sales figure aren't showing how we vote with our wallet. The Mac Ecosystem has morphed itself into a mini PC market where its replacement unit are sustainable for the Mac business as a whole. There should be now close to ~120M Mac users and an annual 25M Mac sales unit, healthy for a 4 years replacement cycle. And it is frustrating because 3 years after this Keyboard introduction and despite many of its users best effort and cried for improvement. Nothing has been done. The 2018 MacBook Pro keyboard are still getting double click and non working keys on Reddit and twitter. ( Sorry I can no longer locate the thread ). I guess more reports will come in as time pass by. And it is not as quiet as the MacBook Air Keyboard either. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65_PmYipnpk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65_PmYipnpk

cpcat 8y ago

You know what's worse? Their bluetooth keyboard is not backlit so you can't use that as an alternative either.

dbg31415 8y ago

I hated the "new" pre-2018 MBP keyboards. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=dbg31415%20keyboard&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=dbg31415%20keyboard&sort=byPop... But... I think with the new 2018s they've done some nice things. You still have a stupid stupid touch bar on the 15s. I have a 13 without the touch bar, and it's a billion times better. You still have a silly silly large track pad (and it has some bend to it in the middle... I don't like it at all). BUT... the keys have just a tad more bounce to them. I think Apple did something to help with the dust issue, and a side effect is that the keys feel just a bit more responsive as you type. Not saying it's great, or better than past versions, or even good yet... but it's a step in the right direction. And honestly it's probably all we'll ever get from Apple... so I'll take it. Hooray for keyboards that aren't quite as bad as the "new" pre-2018s!

lloeki 8y ago
> I have a 13 without the touch bar ... Hooray for keyboards that aren't quite as bad as the "new" pre-2018 Then it's a 2017 as the FN one was untouched by the 2018 refresh.

anentropic 8y ago

It seems like Apple aren't actually practicing design any more instead we have the superficial appearance of design - thinner, lighter, but less useful same with innovation - what is the TouchBar except a desperate attempt to innovate, achieving only the superficial appearance of innovation while actually producing something of no value

toomanybeersies 8y ago

I find it OK to type with. Not absolutely terrible like the keyboards in the high school computer labs, and not great like <insert mechanical keyboard here> (I've never used a mechanical keyboard). The main annoyance I have with it is that it's incredibly loud to type on when in meeting rooms, which is the only time I really use it (I have a full size Apple m=Magic Keyboard I use at my desk). It's obnoxious, especially if you're not using an external mic.

jorisw 8y ago

To everyone hating on the TouchBar - as you should - seriously consider the entry level MBP and just max out the specs. Voila, physical Esc and F keys. Adios idiotic touch strip. Only downside is that only 13”es are sold this way.

davidandgoliath 8y ago
And it's limited to two ports, at least in earlier editions.

jlengrand 8y ago

I bought my first MBP in 2017. Love the machine. Hate the keyboard. It is just very bad. I only wished Apple acknowledged this and offered something as an apology. After all, this is what any car / phone / anything else company would do. It's fine to make mistakes, just embrace them and send love back to your users.

jorisw 8y ago

I could have lived with all its faults if the arrow keys were remotely usable. They are not. I challenge you to blindly find the up arrow without pressing the down arrow.

mark_l_watson 8y ago

It all depends on what you want in a laptop. At work I have the largest (size, processing power, memory) MBP and I find the keyboard to be so-so; not to bad, but don’t love it. This laptop is a clunker to carry around, so optimizing for a thin keyboard doesn’t make sense to me. For my personal laptop I have an 18 month old 12 inch MacBook and I love it. The keyboard is fine because I want my personal laptop to be small and light, with a good display.

doque 8y ago

I got the first model with the new butterfly keyboard and the touchbar in April 2017 and I still hate it. I appreciate the idea of adding a touchbar for regular users. After all, it might be nicer for them to just press "Next Song" when using Spotify than fiddling around with Fn+F*. But for power users/developers, why do the most powerful MBP models come with these useless gimmicks? I'm using Dongles on 3/4 of the USB-C ports right now and that's not going to change anytime soon. I wish Apple listened to developer's voices a bit more. To me, it's not a matter of price, either. I'd gladly pay more for a MBP with more/different ports and without a touchbar than I would for this model.

notjtrig 8y ago

Isn't a bad keyboard part of the design, Apple has aways been removing I/O options and locking down the software. A bad keyboard is just the natural evolution of the concept. Why should they give the average person the ability to type? Their buisness model is focused on passive consumption.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

It's a great keyboard ... when it's working. It's just not very robust.

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theonemind 8y ago

I actually find it a great keyboard. However, I have mild RSI, and both travel and force aggravate it. I like cherry MX blue switches because I can avoid using much force, and I don't have to bottom out the keys, so I have a long habit of stopping my keypress when I get tactile feedback that the keyboard has registered the press. So, I think a lot of people who don't like it could probably like it if they approached it like I do. And, in my experience, you don't need that key travel. You have to get used to stopping the keypress when it registers the press. However, the keyboard gives very clear feedback about that. If you compare it to other keyboards you use and expect the same thing, it will disappoint you. Accept it as something different that you have to use and think about differently. It does not hamper my speed or accuracy at all. I can type about 80 WPM with a negligible error rate (<1%. Obviously, the error rate goes up if I type faster.) I can type perhaps even more quickly and accurately on this keyboard than any I have ever used, and key travel literally just wastes your time and aggravates (perhaps even causes) RSI.

whywhywhywhy 8y ago

Getting real tired of the Apple apologists spinning it that Apple keyboards have never been reliable and this is perfectly normal. My TiBook G4 still works at 16 years of age, my 2006 Alu iMac keyboard is still used daily, my 4 year old MBP keyboard works fine. My 8 month old USB-C MBP has key deadzones and 5 glitchy keys and a few keys significantly louder than others. It’s crazy how apple managed to turn my most loved machine into my most hated with just a single design update.

huhaaha 8y ago

I am truely disappointed here. Looking at the article's title I was expecting an elegant classical english poem.

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temporallobe 8y ago

Meh. I've had everything from super-clicky mechanical KBs (RapidFire or something kike that) to the flat butterfly keys on the MacBook. Like learning to drive or play guitar, it becomes muscle memory after a while. I've gotten used almost everything at this point in my life. However what I will NOT accept is a virtual keyboard. I need at least some kind of tactile feedback.

gumby 8y ago

FWIW I've writen about 60Kloc on a 2016 MacBook 12 (i.e. not "pro") and it turns out to have worked pretty well for me. All of my development is in Emacs, so I'm pretty keyboard-dependent. That doesn't mean it's been great: I went through three of keyboards, and would be on my fourth except that the MB had an unfortunate water incident. So in two years I had almost two weeks of not having my machine available -- that's pretty bad! New I've had a 2018 MBP for about three weeks and the keyboard is better (but the machine is a lot heavier) and so far no kbd failures. (The touchbar is pretty worthless to me but mostly harmless). (Honestly if you're typing in a lot of code and just typing make and lldb the MB was a great ultralight machine. YEs, building our whole system took a while but mostly you're just ending and recompiling one module and it's still faster than most several-year-old machines, which in the Mac world could reasonably still be in use. It doesn't have the horsepower for those huge IDEs but I don't use them anyway. They seem to use more cycles than the compilers!)

iliasku 8y ago

ok here's one thing almost no one mentions and is hard for me to understand: i do almost all of my development work on my desk, where i have an external keyboard of my liking connected to my macbook. i only use the macbook's keyboard when i'm travelling, and mostly for typing the first 2 letters of the website i want to open on my browser. don't understand why people fuss about so much about the keyboard: if you don't like it just use an external one. what am i missing?

purplezooey 8y ago

They should make a Cherry MX MBP. that would be badass.

purplezooey 8y ago
who's the chotch that downvoted this
- dang 8y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? This one in particular broke the site guidelines - see the last bit of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

davemp 8y ago

This may be a bit off topic, forgive me. Last spring my laptop running linux finally gave up and I decided to give the MBP a try. The pros: - MUCH better hardware than anything else on the market. - The keyboard is great for me. Leaving mech keys on desktop doesn't feel as bad as it used to. I haven't encountered any inconsistency this article complains about with so many words--maybe I'm an outlier. - MacOS requires just about zero maintenance. - Better consumer software (DRM) compatibility (audible, hbogo, etc). - Better creative software compatibility. - The OS is pretty well tuned for battery life (I'm sure linux can be, I just didn't expend the effort). The cons: - Much more difficult to customize. I do miss just how tuned I got my linux setup with a tiling WM (i3). I haven't lost significant productivity though. - Brew is not a first class package manager. Pacman/AUR and apt are a dream for developers. - Boot time is noticeably slower. At least it don't drop you into the OS with about 1,000 other processes in the scheduler like windows does. This list is not exhaustive. But I'd not feel bad saying that the MBP is the best laptop experience. On a side note I also switched to iOS from android and am similarly satisfied. For a no fuss, non free eco-system apple is still king despite any recent stumbles.

newscracker 8y ago

So how come no senior executive has been fired for this and the overall scene of Macs languishing for years? This is certainly far from how Apple desires its products and product lines to be perceived and written about. Scott Forstall was fired (IMO, for a lot less) for the Apple Maps fiasco, though he could’ve contributed a lot more to the company if he were still around. Something seems to be rotten right from the top, and there’s no honest acknowledgement of how bad the state of affairs is on the Mac side.

orev 8y ago
Companies predictably focus on the areas where they make the most profit. For Apple, that’s clearly Phones, App Store, iTunes, even iAds. The laptop hardware and OS are clearly in a minority when compared to those big earners, so they just don’t focus any attention on them.
- newscracker 8y ago
  But as prominent writers in the Apple/Mac space have been writing for years, the state of the Mac has been terrible for a long time. The absolute requirement of having a Mac to develop software for iOS, tvOS and watchOS makes it necessary that Apple focus on the Macs — even if the range of options is limited — to produce things that will help its primary market on iOS to grow. Selling old and outdated hardware for high prices (set during product launch time) is even more insulting to the Apple brand. I know that Apple’s organizational structure is also to blame, but clearly it shouldn’t take so many years to even get started on fixing things and showing some results. Apple is losing with this attitude and negligence. One can only hope that it starts showing that it is serious about walking the talk sometime soon.
  - Lio 8y ago
    This is a pretty personal opinion so feel free to disagree but Mac OS X era Apple seemed to have the same air of Unix cool as Silicon Graphics, Sun or NexT back in the day. It was probably never true but they gave the illusion of caring intensely about making delightful products. All that changed when Apple's market interests shifted to larger, more lucrative consumer markets. Now things like good emoji support are more important that keyboard shortcuts for window management. Apple is doing exactly what they should for their shareholders, I guess, but since they've gone all "Barney the Dinosaur" they just doesn't have the magic anymore for me. :( Now their stuff just feels like dodgy "smart" TVs full of janky animations and features you know some exec thought was cool for a day. If Apple was still Apple they'd be able to make announcements at their keynotes about fundamental stuff missing from macOS like, say, package management and make it sound cool. The magic is that they'd get non-nerds to care about it too.

bgdkbtv 8y ago

I don't understand why everyone is so unhappy with it. Am I the only one absolutely loves this keyboard? I think this is the best keyboard on any laptop, and I wish I could have an external keyboard that is just like this one.