4 ms·

From the conversations I've had and from my own experience I think the ludicrous real estate cost is a larger factor than this article implies. It's tolerable

by api 8y ago

From the conversations I've had and from my own experience I think the ludicrous real estate cost is a larger factor than this article implies. It's tolerable if you're a just out of college bachelor/ette, but if you want to have a bit more space (let alone a family) you pretty much have to leave unless you've gotten rich. Even for young people if you do the math your big Bay Area salary actually doesn't get you ahead as much as a slightly lower salary in a much lower cost of living city. Your whole paycheck goes to the landlord. A secondary factor caused by real estate hyperinflation is that all the stuff that once made the SF Bay Area so interesting has been priced out. I remember the Bay Area in the 1990s. It was a hub not just of tech but of art, music, and culture. It was a magical in a way that's hard to explain today, and I say this as someone who only visited. My main experience of it was from the culture and "vibe" it exported. All that is gone now. It's a glorified office park. Why spend so much to live there if it's no different from any other city?

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> * ludicrous real estate cost is a larger factor than this article implies* California's housing problem, particularly the Bay Area's, is a symptom of its political dysfunction. The Bay Area's elite consistently optimize for the short term.
- api 8y ago
  The housing policy of the entire state seems geared toward boomers who bought property here in the 60s-90s cashing out on the backs of the young and newcomers.
  - wolco 8y ago
    In fairness that group is highly represented in the likely to vote block.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    "Elite" doesn't overlap much with "young and newcomers".
rahimnathwani 8y ago
"Even for young people if you do the math your big Bay Area salary actually doesn't get you ahead as much as a slightly lower salary in a much lower cost of living city." But that's the point: the difference in rent is much smaller than the difference in market salaries. "Your whole paycheck goes to the landlord." If you're an engineer with a $150k salary, which is at the low end for most companies you've heard of that have offices in the Bay Area, then it's very unlikely you spend anything close to your whole paycheck on rent.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Average rent in SF is $3,442. If you want it a bit fancier we're talking about $4,377 for a two bedroom appartment. [1] In your 150k example you're using 1/3rd of your salary just for rent (assuming you get 150k, net). [1] https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/sa...
  - rahimnathwani 8y ago
    So let's assume you can reduce your rent from $50k/year to $20k/year. That's a saving of $30k/year, or maybe $40k/year before tax. From what I understand from reading comments here, salaries in places with lower cost of living are not just $40k/year less, but much much less. And for those earning more than $150k, the math works out even more in favour of the Bay Area, as the % drop in salary goes up with salary, whereas the $40k rent difference doesn't.
    - CuriouslyC 8y ago
      Rent is just the tip of the iceberg, you also have higher taxes, higher entertainment costs, etc. Also, even with a >$200k salary, buying a decent home without a brutal commute can be hard. If you don't mind living in a rented room or commuting >1hr a day and shop exclusively at amazon and costco, the bay area is a great opportunity to save money.
      - 8y ago
selimthegrim 8y ago
There’s a magical place like that today - it’s called Montréal.
- g4nt1 8y ago
  I agree for the vibe. But it's not even close to the number of startups or VC funding.
  - selimthegrim 8y ago
    SO maybe there's a few game companies and some AI research. But the math and science base in Montreal, Sherbrooke, UdeM, McGill, CRM is nothing to sneeze at.
60654 8y ago
> A secondary factor caused by real estate hyperinflation is that all the stuff that once made the SF Bay Area so interesting has been priced out. I remember the Bay Area in the 1990s. It was a hub not just of tech but of art, music, and culture. It was a magical in a way that's hard to explain today, and I say this as someone who only visited. My main experience of it was from the culture and "vibe" it exported. All that is gone now. That recapitulates my experience as well from living in SF. There was a feel of the city that has since disappeared. For me the breaking point was in the early 2010s, when I noticed all my nontech friends disappearing - they were getting priced out and moving, mostly out of state. And the conversations in tech changed too, from doing interesting and weird and exploratory things, to conversations about money, getting vc funding, and working on things that will make even more money. The vibe was turning into a 90s wall street, and not the old city where everybody was a misfit and did their own weird thing. That's probably the part I miss the most.

by api 8y ago

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> * ludicrous real estate cost is a larger factor than this article implies* California's housing problem, particularly the Bay Area's, is a symptom of its political dysfunction. The Bay Area's elite consistently optimize for the short term.

api 8y ago
The housing policy of the entire state seems geared toward boomers who bought property here in the 60s-90s cashing out on the backs of the young and newcomers.
- wolco 8y ago
  In fairness that group is highly represented in the likely to vote block.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  "Elite" doesn't overlap much with "young and newcomers".

rahimnathwani 8y ago

"Even for young people if you do the math your big Bay Area salary actually doesn't get you ahead as much as a slightly lower salary in a much lower cost of living city." But that's the point: the difference in rent is much smaller than the difference in market salaries. "Your whole paycheck goes to the landlord." If you're an engineer with a $150k salary, which is at the low end for most companies you've heard of that have offices in the Bay Area, then it's very unlikely you spend anything close to your whole paycheck on rent.

CaptainZapp 8y ago
Average rent in SF is $3,442. If you want it a bit fancier we're talking about $4,377 for a two bedroom appartment. [1] In your 150k example you're using 1/3rd of your salary just for rent (assuming you get 150k, net). [1] https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/sa...
- rahimnathwani 8y ago
  So let's assume you can reduce your rent from $50k/year to $20k/year. That's a saving of $30k/year, or maybe $40k/year before tax. From what I understand from reading comments here, salaries in places with lower cost of living are not just $40k/year less, but much much less. And for those earning more than $150k, the math works out even more in favour of the Bay Area, as the % drop in salary goes up with salary, whereas the $40k rent difference doesn't.
  - CuriouslyC 8y ago
    Rent is just the tip of the iceberg, you also have higher taxes, higher entertainment costs, etc. Also, even with a >$200k salary, buying a decent home without a brutal commute can be hard. If you don't mind living in a rented room or commuting >1hr a day and shop exclusively at amazon and costco, the bay area is a great opportunity to save money.
    - 8y ago

selimthegrim 8y ago

There’s a magical place like that today - it’s called Montréal.

g4nt1 8y ago
I agree for the vibe. But it's not even close to the number of startups or VC funding.
- selimthegrim 8y ago
  SO maybe there's a few game companies and some AI research. But the math and science base in Montreal, Sherbrooke, UdeM, McGill, CRM is nothing to sneeze at.

60654 8y ago

> A secondary factor caused by real estate hyperinflation is that all the stuff that once made the SF Bay Area so interesting has been priced out. I remember the Bay Area in the 1990s. It was a hub not just of tech but of art, music, and culture. It was a magical in a way that's hard to explain today, and I say this as someone who only visited. My main experience of it was from the culture and "vibe" it exported. All that is gone now. That recapitulates my experience as well from living in SF. There was a feel of the city that has since disappeared. For me the breaking point was in the early 2010s, when I noticed all my nontech friends disappearing - they were getting priced out and moving, mostly out of state. And the conversations in tech changed too, from doing interesting and weird and exploratory things, to conversations about money, getting vc funding, and working on things that will make even more money. The vibe was turning into a 90s wall street, and not the old city where everybody was a misfit and did their own weird thing. That's probably the part I miss the most.