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Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

148 points by kochikame 8y ago

jimmywanger 8y ago
If you're ethnically Asian but don't speak Japanese, Japan will not be welcoming at all. If you don't look ethnically Asian, Japanese people will give you allowances and defer to you. However, if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed[0]. They speak fluent Japanese and their families have lived 3 generations in Japan. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan#Integration_into_Japanese_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan#Integration_i...
- Karishmra1234 8y ago
  Let us not generalise and make racially charged accusations against another culture please. If it personal experience you had faced it could be anecdotal.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  My student who was of Korean decent but was the most popular person in high school and went to a good university would disagree with you. As would my friend who was born in Korea, married a Japanese woman and moved to Japan. There is discrimination in Japan, but it's frustrating to see this trotted out time and time again as if you'll be systemically discriminated against no matter where you are. It's just not true. But if you don't speak Japanese, it doesn't matter if you are Asian looking or not, you won't fit in here. There are lots of other ways you won't fit in here too. Not speaking Japanese well is an absolute deal breaker, though. Edit: I should point out that there is nothing wrong with the Wikipedia page. As far as I understand what it states is absolutely correct. It's simply that Japan does not have dual citizenship at all. So if you want Japanese citizenship you can have it -- you just have to give up your other citizenship. Japan also does not give citizenship automatically if you are born here. You have to have at least 1 parent who is a citizen. However, you can apply for citizenship and you will get it -- as long as you give up any other citizenship. Otherwise you will essentially have permanent resident status. The latter point is admittedly crazy and it is very unfortunate that many Koreans are born into this situation, but they can fix it by naturalising. They don't want to. BTW, the student of a friend of mine was American and had exactly the same issue. It's not an issue of racism.
  - jimmywanger 8y ago
    The plural of anecdote is not data. And Korean people have been oppressed in the past, and no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government. That's why a lot of Korean people born in Japan gravitate towards less savoury activities. Plus, Japanese took Chinese and Korean women and forced them to become whores or "comfort women" for the Japanese soldiers stationed in the mainland. As recently as 2014 the Prime Minister of Japan said there was no evidence that the Japanese government took "slaves". And the second point, which you don't touch upon, is if you look even vaguely Japanese at all, you are expected to follow all the social norms. If you don't, they give you a pass.
    - sofon 8y ago
      "The plural of anecdote is not data." Then present some data other than a wikipedia article which doesn't appear to support your case.
      - jimmywanger 8y ago
        The wikipedia article indicates that as recently as 2007, the Prime Minister of Japan did not believe that the Japanese government seized the comfort women by force[0]. When we riot over Confederate statues, and yet we're ok with their government officials visiting shrines which celebrate war criminals[1]? Of course the United States is not blameless. We gave amnesty to the leaders of Camp 731 in exchange for experimental knowledge and the Tuskegee experiments are of course unforgivable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#History_of_the_issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#History_of_the_i... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Post-war_issues_and_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Post-war_issue...
        sofon 8y ago
        You're talking about the Japanese PM, and it's possible to make a case that current and past PMs have been racist. That's not the same as saying that the population in general are racist and Asians are oppressed i.e.: "if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed" So... data that shows that non-Japanese Asians are oppressed in Japan? On top of that, is there data that shows that racism in Japan is quantitatively worse than other countries?
- dbjh 8y ago
  To name Koreans as an example is disingenuous. If you read the Wikipedia article you will also see that the problems come from both sides. The Koreans the Wikipedia article talks about do not want to fully integrate - they insist on their Korean nationality and demand rights of both Korean and Japanese nationals. At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppressed and is actually a source of irritation among Japanese I know. As anectodal evidence to counter your claim, in the Japanese company I work for (in Japan), my direct superior is Taiwanese, one colleague Korean and another Malay and they are all treated like any other.
  - lifthrasiir 8y ago
    It might be disingenuous but not entirely false. The integration you describe is not mandatory to be accepted as a member of many societies, and the seeming inability to integrate was historically used as a legitimate reason to discriminate them even after considerable efforts. There are so many ongoing discriminations specific to Japan [1], including aforementioned pre-1945 Korean immigrants (and by extension their descendants or all Koreans), Ainu peoples, Ryukyuan peoples and Burakumin. Sometimes they result in criminal or problematic acts; for example, Korean immigrants are a major force behind the notorious pachinko industry. Still such phenomena do not mask the underlying problem. > At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppressed and is actually a source of irritation among Japanese I know. They have managed to obtain a special status because they have been oppressed! You are swapping the cause and the effect. Also you can't use irritation among Japanese as a rationale or whatever because they are naturally biased---it's just that, they feel so and there might or might not be a good reason. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan
    - dbjh 8y ago
      I wasn't swapping anything. I was arguing against the claim that Koreans are being oppressed. They're not. In an attempt by the Japanese government to make amends they have been given privileges that other foreigners don't enjoy. Some Japanese see that as unfair, because why would they enjoy special privileges if they have not been subject to unfair treatment as their ancestors were? That's where the irritation comes from.
latchkey 8y ago
I know this is about Japan, but I did something similar. I went from San Francisco to Saigon about 2 years ago. Significantly lower cost of living, motorbike culture, great food and craft beer, super friendly people, easy travel to other SE Asia countries. I don't regret it one bit.
- foobandit 8y ago
  I'm not aware of any good opportunities out there - did you start your own thing or work remotely?
  - latchkey 8y ago
    I originally found a company that 'sponsored' me as a consultant. Then I've had a number of jobs while I've been here. I'm currently remote consulting for a global company based out of NYC. Yes, it means I have a nightly 10:30pm standup, but that is an ok price to pay to get to live where I want to.
- nguyenthanhloc 8y ago
  thank you for sharing the story! I'm a Vietnamese, former marketer/founder, and currently working as a banker. Can you share with me more about your experiences in Vietnam? Could I buy you a coffee, sometimes?
  - latchkey 8y ago
    Yes, of course! Contact me offline. =)
    - nguyenthanhloc 8y ago
      nice. I'll contact you by email then?
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  I guess we all have our own preferences. I visited Saigon (and the rest of Vietnam) a couple of years ago with an eye to maybe moving there and working remotely. It didn't take me too long to decide that I wasn't going to move. The main reason was just the lack of creature comforts. No offence intended to Vietnam, but everything there was just a bit shitty and in a state of disrepair. I just felt like everything was put together with a minimum of effort, and then no effort was made to maintain it. Whether it was motorbikes, or roads, or buildings. The other things that you might think were obvious downsides weren't actually problems for me at all. I didn't mind the traffic, or the pollution, or the noise. Riding motorbikes everywhere was actually fine as well. The heat was pretty bad, but I'd get used to it. I think at the end of the day the main reason that I didn't move was that my reason for wanting to move was the lower cost of living, so I could save money. I don't think that saving money is really a good reason to move countries. Instead, I moved to another country with similar cost of living but higher wages. That's why I find these articles interesting. What works for one person really might not work for others. I've seen stories posted/linked to on HN about people who moved to Japan and hated it.
dawhizkid 8y ago
They found one engineer who wanted to live in Japan and call it a story? You could do this for literally any topic about anything and call it a trend apparently
- mikekchar 8y ago
  Is this an appropriate place in HN to say "Me too"? :-) Moved here 10 years ago. Don't regret it for a second. But seriously, in the past 10 years I've noticed a lot of high tech people either moving here or wanting to move here. When I first came, it was really rare to bump into a foreigner who was a programmer. They were either English teachers or factory workers. Now I run into people relatively frequently (even out here in Shizuoka prefecture).
  - propman 8y ago
    Can I ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Are you fluent in Japanese? Have there been any major instances of discrimination at work? I know you’ve been there 10 years, but is this a place you’d be happy for the rest of your life to start a family and potentially retire? Please ignore if any of these are too uncomfortable or invasive.
    - bojo 8y ago
      Not the parent but same situation. Been here 11 years. A lot of people can get around without speaking Japanese, but I don’t recommend it. You’ll get a much more meaningful and deeper experience out of living here if you can converse with everyone. Randomly stopping and bullshitting with a bored old guy for an hour can be quite fun! Sadly the developer pay here is pretty dismal, even more so if you come with US expectations. I’ve mentioned this before when it comes up, but the IT sector has organically migrated to a 10am-7pm schedule, so if you factor in commuting and the inevitable overtime then the only time you get to yourself are weekends. Taking multiple days off is frowned upon, although as a foreigner you get a little leniency because you are probably spending two days flying when you visit family. That all said, it is an extremely convenient country to live in. Great public transportation, great food, friendly people, low crime rates, social health insurance, etc. I really love the living aspect of Japan. I have a wife and child, and while I could imagine myself living here indefinitely, career wise it’s a dead end - they have trouble fitting you into their social structure. If you are perfectly happy with being a cog in the wheel (or carry your team on your back), and mostly work to live, then it probably isn’t that bad of a choice. I’d definitely encourage anyone closer to 20 than 40 to give it a shot, living abroad is an amazing experience. That said, I’ll finally be heading back to the US in a couple months once visas clear. The 40-60 age gap is right in front of me, and retirement is taking a stronger grasp on the mind. Much easier to consider options in a higher paying English speaking developer job.
paulsutter 8y ago
To anyone who is thinking about going: you should really go.
- Camillo 8y ago
  If someone were working in Silicon Valley as a permanent resident (not US citizen), and wanted to try working in Japan (say, for a year), could they do that without jeopardizing their ability to go back to the US?
  - zinckiwi 8y ago
    No. Technically a year is the limit IIRC but I have heard of issues with even six months away. It's at the discretion of the immigration official as to what constitutes abandonment of your permanent residence.
ericdykstra 8y ago
I love living and working in Japan, but I wouldn't recommend moving here unless you're committed to becoming fluent in Japanese and integrating into the culture. This is probably mostly true for any country one could move, but Japanese is one, if not the hardest language to learn for native English speakers. I do, however, recommend everyone visit! Japan is a beautiful country with a unique culture and has something for everyone. You'll be safe, and have all the amenities you would expect from a first world country.
- soufron 8y ago
  I stayed and worked as a Lawyer in Japan for a few years, and I wouldn't say it makes a difference whether you want to integrate or not. I would even tend to think that not integrating can result in being better accepted. Just be the French or the US guy they like to hang out with, the one who knows to do stuff they don't know, and everything will be fine. Try to become a japanese, and you'll end up being crushed by the system. Speaking japanese is a great plus of course - but it's quite easy to learn, reading and writing don't help much - except if you want to explore the vast trove of japanese culture. But the most important thing is to know that there is nearly zero interest in working in Japan if you're not the boss. Your career will be painful and difficult. You will suffer. It's a worst of two worlds situation.
  - cgarrigue 8y ago
    Luckily the work culture is slowly changing, at least regarding the matter of OT: following the suicide of a new recruit of Dentsu that was ruled to be a death by overwork, several companies started to ask their employees to refrain from doing OT. However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything. This seems to come from the way they learn things at school: the teacher is always right, because he's the teacher; you need to listen to your seniors, because they know more than you. This leads to new recruits being taught everything by senior staffers, even when the methods are bad. And of course this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new. On the other hand, for sure living here is great if you can live with the caveats of the Japanese society.
cosmic_ape 8y ago
I hoped to see there an elaboration of what a "Japanese Dream" is, but there isn't much about that in the article.
xaranke 8y ago
Are there really a lot of these people? Don't get me wrong, Japan is truly a wonderful place to visit but living there seems like playing life on "hard mode" as compared to other countries: new language and culture, never truly becoming "one of them", and relatively poor working conditions. Unless you have existing ties to the place, it seems hard to believe that people will move in droves; although I can understand a few people moving.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  I'm guessing not a lot. Japan is notorious for very formal work culture, very long "working" hours (really, "working" just means "staying in the office" - it's customary not to leave the office before your boss does, but perfectly acceptable to spend the waiting time playing solitaire). It's one of these countries where "an engineer is just an engineer" and management, even if it's middle management, is god. They do need tech workers, which is probably why this propaganda piece got published. But I doubt they're getting many applicants, except maybe from 3rd-world countries as shown in the article.
  - xaranke 8y ago
    Doesn't look like they're getting many applications from anywhere: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-30/japan-wants-immigrants-the-feeling-isn-t-mutual https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-30/japan-wan....
- Raphmedia 8y ago
  > Unless you have existing ties to the place, it seems hard to believe that people will move in droves; although I can understand a few people moving. The opposite is also true. You can grow so bored of western culture that Japan become interesting with its different way of life. It is however quite a bit "western" in some ways (compared to China, some of the middle east, etc.) so moving there can sound like a challenge without being scary.
  - xaranke 8y ago
    This is a Eurocentrist view, but you're not wrong.
mnm1 8y ago
The Japanese (and Korean) work culture, or at least the external perception thereof is the biggest factor that turns me and others off. Who wants to work most of their life and put in twelve or more hours a day six days a week or more? It's worse than America which is already quite bad and off-putting. I don't know what it is about hard work that people have fetishised, but it's not all that it's cut out to be and frankly, if one doesn't have to work that hard, working that hard is stupid. Not to mention unhealthy. Doing it for low pay borders on insanity or disease. Workaholism is no different than alcoholism at its core. Both are extremely destructive. Well at least with the former, there will hopefully be money to pay one's medical and early funeral bills.
- lifthrasiir 8y ago
  You are generally right, but in the tech sector the work culture is highly variable---I'm saying this as a native Korean having worked for Korean tech companies for a decade, and I have heard similar accounts for Japan. South Korea also enjoys a universal healthcare for everyone; there are mandatory healthcare plans for long-term foreigners as well AFAIK. They do generally have lower tolerance on diversity issues (even while the workplace can be much better, the society is not), so that's something to keep in mind.
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    Healthcare is a big issue in America for the poor and working class, for white collar professionals it generally isn't nearly as much.
- mr_overalls 8y ago
  I'm curious if the work culture differs outside of large cities like Tokyo, Yokohama, etc.?
- astonex 8y ago
  New law in Korea means workers are limited to 40 hours a week now, with maximum 12 hours overtime at 150% pay. I work at Korea's biggest tech company and the law is strictly followed.
anjc 8y ago
Any non-Japanese person who wants to work there should think long and hard, and give it a trial first. Poor pay, strong work culture, stifling weather and crazy weather events for much of the year...it's no paradise. You'll frequently see things happen which are downright illegal in the Western world. For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist but live there and you'll see it. It's sad that some introverted/vulnerable people seem to gravitate towards Japanese culture. If the Japanese themselves have a tough time in their own society then why do outsiders expect to fare any better.
- glandium 8y ago
  > For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist but live there and you'll see it. There are very few such places. I haven't seen any myself, and I don't know first-hand anyone who has seen any themselves either. The rare cases I heard about were all a shortcut made to essentially mean "can't serve people that don't speak Japanese". As in, they did actually serve foreigners that speak Japanese. Which is somehow understandable, although the form might not be appropriate. Speaking of form, it is worth noting that when combined with poor English, the signs can be huge fails in meaning. For example "Japanese only" can mean "Japanese people only" or "Japanese language only". I'm sure there are many ways people with good intentions can end up with badly worded signs. And obviously, a foreigner seeing a badly worded sign is unlikely to tell them the sign is badly worded, keeping the status quo in place. I've actually heard of instances of foreigners telling about signs, with the signs being replaced as a result.
  - anjc 8y ago
    I see this argument frequently, that it's actually a rare occurrence, and that foreigners are just misinterpreting a reasonable request to speak the local language. Well I've tested this. When you're confronted by owners saying "Japanese only!" while shooing you out of an establishment before assessing your speaking ability, it's clear that it isn't a misinterpretation. This isn't out in the sticks either, busy parts of Tokyo in touristy areas. I'm a middle aged academic too, not exactly the type to ever cause trouble. Deny service in Europe in this manner and see what happens. I don't even care, personally. They can serve who they want. It just may be a shock to people who assume that the Japanese will be largely welcoming of outsiders.
sevensor 8y ago
Pedantry, I know, but I don't think caché means what the author thinks it means. Pretty sure cachet was intended.
ArtWomb 8y ago
Sugoi! I'd be interested in hearing the price breakdown for living in Tokyo at current exchange rates ($USDJPY = 110.00)? For a moderate two bedroom in a cool neighborhood? As well as office space. And how is the availability of gigabit residential fiber options. Say, comparable to Verizon FIOS (~$150/mo)? In short, if anyone has set up a remote office for 2-3 months or even permanently I'd love to hear their experiences ;)
- Aeolun 8y ago
  * 2 bedroom in cool neighborhood: $2100/month * office space (3 people) somewhere central, shared facilities, private office: $2000/month * residential gigabit (min 1 year contract): $60/month * food for one month, either eating out or buying decent groceries and cooking: $800/month --- Those are off the top of my head. I'm not very interested in living in a cool neighborhood and rent where I live is more like $1400 (office space is presumably correspondingly lower).
  - rc_hadoken 8y ago
    Way more affordable than I thought. I'm guessing the office space is split and a 1bedroom is 1300~?
  - WhompingWindows 8y ago
    Sounds similar to Providence, RI regarding expenses. I'd wager a similar lifestyle in Boston, MA would go for $1k more than what you've listed, finding a 2 BR in a cool neighborhood of Boston area is probably going to be $3k or more.
  - vorpalhex 8y ago
    How do restaurant prices compare to grocery prices typically? Do folks tend to go out as often as they do in the US?
    - 0xCMP 8y ago
      Just came back from a trip and most restaurant prices match the US in cities. Cheaper places go for around $6-7/meal. Most end up being around $20/meal (+/- 5). Obviously cooking at home or snacking ($1-3/snack) from convince stores lowers that amount. Most prices include tax and there is never a tip.
knbknb 8y ago
Recently, there was a long autobiographic thread on twitter about a young US woman who could not make it into an adequante job in the gaming industry, simply because she is a woman. For women, it seems to be very hard to find a job generally, with few exceptions. For example, plenty of Nanny jobs seem to be available in Japan.
Grue3 8y ago
I'm thinking of moving to Japan myself. Really enjoyed visiting it as a tourist. I learned the language for my side-project and planning to take a language proficiency test this December. Anybody need a Python programmer who worked at Yandex?
lanevorockz 8y ago
The crazy political correctness is turning anyone working on Silicon Valley into a paranoid person. You are expected to behave and think in a certain way, being an individual is not acceptable.
- leogiertz 8y ago
  And you think moving to Japan will alleviate that?
  - chosenbreed 8y ago
    > And you think moving to Japan will alleviate that? :-)
Fej 8y ago
Japan is not anime.
- nayuki 8y ago
  It kind of is, especially in a relative sense. I was in Japan for a few weeks this year. Some of the unique anime things that I found in Japan that I don't see in North America: * Anime girls (specifically Azur Lane) plastered all over Yamanote Line trains * Shops playing music from animes I've watched and other recognizable Jpop music * Anime-themed cafes (Gundam, Card Captor Sakura, etc.) * Stores for secondhand anime goods * Rentable display cases to sell your anime goods * Anime mascots printed on public banners * Gaming arcades with anime goods * Conversely, the way that cities, train stations, and other scenes are depicted in anime is fairly accurate to how Japan looks like in real life This is not to say that Japan is 100% anime, because that is obviously false. All I'm saying is that if you want to see a place that upholds the anime lifestyle more than anywhere else in the world, then Japan is the only answer.
timwaagh 8y ago
It sounds like an interesting idea. Certainly Japan is an interesting place. In general I envy those who get to move abroad to work. The adventure appeals to me. These days I might be good enough for it too. It wasn't always that way,but certainly I'm currently one of the more capable engineers on my team. But the ties that bind are too strong still. I will stay here. To those who get to do this, I wish them a good ride.
emchamp1 8y ago
This sounds oddly familiar to me, I worked in Japan for a year and a half despite taking a large paycut from my job back in the US because I wanted to explore something new. I ultimately left to Silicon Valley ironically because they were offering nearly 4x the pay and better learning opportunities (the Japanese compensation structure is not kind to new grads and SV has ridiculous COL). However I loved my time in Japan and my ultimate career goal is to somehow move back there but with a better opportunity. Good to see some people finding gainful employment over there, it really is a great place to live.
0xCMP 8y ago
People are mentioning pricing for living there. I just visited, so not the same, but noticed some things. 1. Many things try to round out to a flat amount (¥100 instead ¥253). Some places don't. 2. Cash is king. Many places refuse to accept credit or contactless payments if you carry cash. Some places only accept Cash. You can see this when you look up places on Google Maps. 3. Coins are used for denominations of 1 cent up to $5. $10 is the first bill you get so be prepared to carry lots of coins. Also, I still don't understand the reason for it, but they usually refuse to pay things using two methods (e.g. to get rid of the 35(!!) ¥1 coins I had). 4. Tax is usually included or a second price, higher price is shown with the tax included. As in #1 you may see on receipts with tax included. E.g. ¥2000 first shown as total with a smaller number of ¥1740 as sub total and then the final amount with tax included (same as total). 5. There was never a tip where I went and I believe it's not done pretty much anywhere. 6. Many things in major cities are being adjusted for the olympics so things are actually fairly nice for foreigners to get around. 7. Besides going between major areas most train cards can be used in most other places. Assuming you land in Tokyo (e.g. HND) you can get a Suica card for the subway and put ¥2000 on it. It takes face ¥500 as a deposit on the card. I used the same card in Tokyo, Kyoto, and Osaka. sn: That card can be moved to your phone in to Apple Pay if you switch to Japan region in your iOS settings (language and etc doesn't need to change). Apple doesn't require FaceID for it so you can swipe to enter subway super easily with just your phone. Once you do this you get the ¥500 deposit on the card back to use without returning the card. 8. Neat trick for changing prices is put a decimal after first two numbers since your in ¥100 == $0.90 != $1.00, but it's close enough. 9. Restaurants often have english menus, especially in cities, but it's much better experience to be able to read normal menus. At least I'm assuming given I know basically no Japanese. 10. Food and restaurants are comparable to the US. Cheaper meals are $6-7 where nicer sit down restaurants are around $16-25. 11. As far as cheap food: FamilyMart bread is a must try. Also the various Rice+Seaweed+Protein meals are cool.

148 points by kochikame 8y ago

If you're ethnically Asian but don't speak Japanese, Japan will not be welcoming at all. If you don't look ethnically Asian, Japanese people will give you allowances and defer to you. However, if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed[0]. They speak fluent Japanese and their families have lived 3 generations in Japan. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan#Integration_into_Japanese_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan#Integration_i...

Karishmra1234 8y ago
Let us not generalise and make racially charged accusations against another culture please. If it personal experience you had faced it could be anecdotal.
mikekchar 8y ago
My student who was of Korean decent but was the most popular person in high school and went to a good university would disagree with you. As would my friend who was born in Korea, married a Japanese woman and moved to Japan. There is discrimination in Japan, but it's frustrating to see this trotted out time and time again as if you'll be systemically discriminated against no matter where you are. It's just not true. But if you don't speak Japanese, it doesn't matter if you are Asian looking or not, you won't fit in here. There are lots of other ways you won't fit in here too. Not speaking Japanese well is an absolute deal breaker, though. Edit: I should point out that there is nothing wrong with the Wikipedia page. As far as I understand what it states is absolutely correct. It's simply that Japan does not have dual citizenship at all. So if you want Japanese citizenship you can have it -- you just have to give up your other citizenship. Japan also does not give citizenship automatically if you are born here. You have to have at least 1 parent who is a citizen. However, you can apply for citizenship and you will get it -- as long as you give up any other citizenship. Otherwise you will essentially have permanent resident status. The latter point is admittedly crazy and it is very unfortunate that many Koreans are born into this situation, but they can fix it by naturalising. They don't want to. BTW, the student of a friend of mine was American and had exactly the same issue. It's not an issue of racism.
- jimmywanger 8y ago
  The plural of anecdote is not data. And Korean people have been oppressed in the past, and no attempt to rectify the situation has been made by the government. That's why a lot of Korean people born in Japan gravitate towards less savoury activities. Plus, Japanese took Chinese and Korean women and forced them to become whores or "comfort women" for the Japanese soldiers stationed in the mainland. As recently as 2014 the Prime Minister of Japan said there was no evidence that the Japanese government took "slaves". And the second point, which you don't touch upon, is if you look even vaguely Japanese at all, you are expected to follow all the social norms. If you don't, they give you a pass.
  - sofon 8y ago
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." Then present some data other than a wikipedia article which doesn't appear to support your case.
    - jimmywanger 8y ago
      The wikipedia article indicates that as recently as 2007, the Prime Minister of Japan did not believe that the Japanese government seized the comfort women by force[0]. When we riot over Confederate statues, and yet we're ok with their government officials visiting shrines which celebrate war criminals[1]? Of course the United States is not blameless. We gave amnesty to the leaders of Camp 731 in exchange for experimental knowledge and the Tuskegee experiments are of course unforgivable. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#History_of_the_issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women#History_of_the_i... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Post-war_issues_and_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Post-war_issue...
      - sofon 8y ago
        You're talking about the Japanese PM, and it's possible to make a case that current and past PMs have been racist. That's not the same as saying that the population in general are racist and Asians are oppressed i.e.: "if you're Asian and not Japanese, they look down on you. Read about ethnic Koreans in Japan and how they're oppressed" So... data that shows that non-Japanese Asians are oppressed in Japan? On top of that, is there data that shows that racism in Japan is quantitatively worse than other countries?
dbjh 8y ago
To name Koreans as an example is disingenuous. If you read the Wikipedia article you will also see that the problems come from both sides. The Koreans the Wikipedia article talks about do not want to fully integrate - they insist on their Korean nationality and demand rights of both Korean and Japanese nationals. At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppressed and is actually a source of irritation among Japanese I know. As anectodal evidence to counter your claim, in the Japanese company I work for (in Japan), my direct superior is Taiwanese, one colleague Korean and another Malay and they are all treated like any other.
- lifthrasiir 8y ago
  It might be disingenuous but not entirely false. The integration you describe is not mandatory to be accepted as a member of many societies, and the seeming inability to integrate was historically used as a legitimate reason to discriminate them even after considerable efforts. There are so many ongoing discriminations specific to Japan [1], including aforementioned pre-1945 Korean immigrants (and by extension their descendants or all Koreans), Ainu peoples, Ryukyuan peoples and Burakumin. Sometimes they result in criminal or problematic acts; for example, Korean immigrants are a major force behind the notorious pachinko industry. Still such phenomena do not mask the underlying problem. > At this point in time they have managed to obtain a special status that is the opposite of being oppressed and is actually a source of irritation among Japanese I know. They have managed to obtain a special status because they have been oppressed! You are swapping the cause and the effect. Also you can't use irritation among Japanese as a rationale or whatever because they are naturally biased---it's just that, they feel so and there might or might not be a good reason. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan
  - dbjh 8y ago
    I wasn't swapping anything. I was arguing against the claim that Koreans are being oppressed. They're not. In an attempt by the Japanese government to make amends they have been given privileges that other foreigners don't enjoy. Some Japanese see that as unfair, because why would they enjoy special privileges if they have not been subject to unfair treatment as their ancestors were? That's where the irritation comes from.

latchkey 8y ago

I know this is about Japan, but I did something similar. I went from San Francisco to Saigon about 2 years ago. Significantly lower cost of living, motorbike culture, great food and craft beer, super friendly people, easy travel to other SE Asia countries. I don't regret it one bit.

foobandit 8y ago
I'm not aware of any good opportunities out there - did you start your own thing or work remotely?
- latchkey 8y ago
  I originally found a company that 'sponsored' me as a consultant. Then I've had a number of jobs while I've been here. I'm currently remote consulting for a global company based out of NYC. Yes, it means I have a nightly 10:30pm standup, but that is an ok price to pay to get to live where I want to.
nguyenthanhloc 8y ago
thank you for sharing the story! I'm a Vietnamese, former marketer/founder, and currently working as a banker. Can you share with me more about your experiences in Vietnam? Could I buy you a coffee, sometimes?
- latchkey 8y ago
  Yes, of course! Contact me offline. =)
  - nguyenthanhloc 8y ago
    nice. I'll contact you by email then?
toomanybeersies 8y ago
I guess we all have our own preferences. I visited Saigon (and the rest of Vietnam) a couple of years ago with an eye to maybe moving there and working remotely. It didn't take me too long to decide that I wasn't going to move. The main reason was just the lack of creature comforts. No offence intended to Vietnam, but everything there was just a bit shitty and in a state of disrepair. I just felt like everything was put together with a minimum of effort, and then no effort was made to maintain it. Whether it was motorbikes, or roads, or buildings. The other things that you might think were obvious downsides weren't actually problems for me at all. I didn't mind the traffic, or the pollution, or the noise. Riding motorbikes everywhere was actually fine as well. The heat was pretty bad, but I'd get used to it. I think at the end of the day the main reason that I didn't move was that my reason for wanting to move was the lower cost of living, so I could save money. I don't think that saving money is really a good reason to move countries. Instead, I moved to another country with similar cost of living but higher wages. That's why I find these articles interesting. What works for one person really might not work for others. I've seen stories posted/linked to on HN about people who moved to Japan and hated it.

dawhizkid 8y ago

They found one engineer who wanted to live in Japan and call it a story? You could do this for literally any topic about anything and call it a trend apparently

mikekchar 8y ago
Is this an appropriate place in HN to say "Me too"? :-) Moved here 10 years ago. Don't regret it for a second. But seriously, in the past 10 years I've noticed a lot of high tech people either moving here or wanting to move here. When I first came, it was really rare to bump into a foreigner who was a programmer. They were either English teachers or factory workers. Now I run into people relatively frequently (even out here in Shizuoka prefecture).
- propman 8y ago
  Can I ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Are you fluent in Japanese? Have there been any major instances of discrimination at work? I know you’ve been there 10 years, but is this a place you’d be happy for the rest of your life to start a family and potentially retire? Please ignore if any of these are too uncomfortable or invasive.
  - bojo 8y ago
    Not the parent but same situation. Been here 11 years. A lot of people can get around without speaking Japanese, but I don’t recommend it. You’ll get a much more meaningful and deeper experience out of living here if you can converse with everyone. Randomly stopping and bullshitting with a bored old guy for an hour can be quite fun! Sadly the developer pay here is pretty dismal, even more so if you come with US expectations. I’ve mentioned this before when it comes up, but the IT sector has organically migrated to a 10am-7pm schedule, so if you factor in commuting and the inevitable overtime then the only time you get to yourself are weekends. Taking multiple days off is frowned upon, although as a foreigner you get a little leniency because you are probably spending two days flying when you visit family. That all said, it is an extremely convenient country to live in. Great public transportation, great food, friendly people, low crime rates, social health insurance, etc. I really love the living aspect of Japan. I have a wife and child, and while I could imagine myself living here indefinitely, career wise it’s a dead end - they have trouble fitting you into their social structure. If you are perfectly happy with being a cog in the wheel (or carry your team on your back), and mostly work to live, then it probably isn’t that bad of a choice. I’d definitely encourage anyone closer to 20 than 40 to give it a shot, living abroad is an amazing experience. That said, I’ll finally be heading back to the US in a couple months once visas clear. The 40-60 age gap is right in front of me, and retirement is taking a stronger grasp on the mind. Much easier to consider options in a higher paying English speaking developer job.

paulsutter 8y ago

To anyone who is thinking about going: you should really go.

Camillo 8y ago
If someone were working in Silicon Valley as a permanent resident (not US citizen), and wanted to try working in Japan (say, for a year), could they do that without jeopardizing their ability to go back to the US?
- zinckiwi 8y ago
  No. Technically a year is the limit IIRC but I have heard of issues with even six months away. It's at the discretion of the immigration official as to what constitutes abandonment of your permanent residence.

ericdykstra 8y ago

I love living and working in Japan, but I wouldn't recommend moving here unless you're committed to becoming fluent in Japanese and integrating into the culture. This is probably mostly true for any country one could move, but Japanese is one, if not the hardest language to learn for native English speakers. I do, however, recommend everyone visit! Japan is a beautiful country with a unique culture and has something for everyone. You'll be safe, and have all the amenities you would expect from a first world country.

soufron 8y ago
I stayed and worked as a Lawyer in Japan for a few years, and I wouldn't say it makes a difference whether you want to integrate or not. I would even tend to think that not integrating can result in being better accepted. Just be the French or the US guy they like to hang out with, the one who knows to do stuff they don't know, and everything will be fine. Try to become a japanese, and you'll end up being crushed by the system. Speaking japanese is a great plus of course - but it's quite easy to learn, reading and writing don't help much - except if you want to explore the vast trove of japanese culture. But the most important thing is to know that there is nearly zero interest in working in Japan if you're not the boss. Your career will be painful and difficult. You will suffer. It's a worst of two worlds situation.
- cgarrigue 8y ago
  Luckily the work culture is slowly changing, at least regarding the matter of OT: following the suicide of a new recruit of Dentsu that was ruled to be a death by overwork, several companies started to ask their employees to refrain from doing OT. However, as an engineer, it is sometimes quite frustrating to work with colleagues who do not want to try anything by themselves, because they want to be taught everything. This seems to come from the way they learn things at school: the teacher is always right, because he's the teacher; you need to listen to your seniors, because they know more than you. This leads to new recruits being taught everything by senior staffers, even when the methods are bad. And of course this limits innovation, because nobody wants to do something new. On the other hand, for sure living here is great if you can live with the caveats of the Japanese society.

cosmic_ape 8y ago

I hoped to see there an elaboration of what a "Japanese Dream" is, but there isn't much about that in the article.

xaranke 8y ago

Are there really a lot of these people? Don't get me wrong, Japan is truly a wonderful place to visit but living there seems like playing life on "hard mode" as compared to other countries: new language and culture, never truly becoming "one of them", and relatively poor working conditions. Unless you have existing ties to the place, it seems hard to believe that people will move in droves; although I can understand a few people moving.

dunpeal 8y ago
I'm guessing not a lot. Japan is notorious for very formal work culture, very long "working" hours (really, "working" just means "staying in the office" - it's customary not to leave the office before your boss does, but perfectly acceptable to spend the waiting time playing solitaire). It's one of these countries where "an engineer is just an engineer" and management, even if it's middle management, is god. They do need tech workers, which is probably why this propaganda piece got published. But I doubt they're getting many applicants, except maybe from 3rd-world countries as shown in the article.
- xaranke 8y ago
  Doesn't look like they're getting many applications from anywhere: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-30/japan-wants-immigrants-the-feeling-isn-t-mutual https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-30/japan-wan....
Raphmedia 8y ago
> Unless you have existing ties to the place, it seems hard to believe that people will move in droves; although I can understand a few people moving. The opposite is also true. You can grow so bored of western culture that Japan become interesting with its different way of life. It is however quite a bit "western" in some ways (compared to China, some of the middle east, etc.) so moving there can sound like a challenge without being scary.
- xaranke 8y ago
  This is a Eurocentrist view, but you're not wrong.

mnm1 8y ago

The Japanese (and Korean) work culture, or at least the external perception thereof is the biggest factor that turns me and others off. Who wants to work most of their life and put in twelve or more hours a day six days a week or more? It's worse than America which is already quite bad and off-putting. I don't know what it is about hard work that people have fetishised, but it's not all that it's cut out to be and frankly, if one doesn't have to work that hard, working that hard is stupid. Not to mention unhealthy. Doing it for low pay borders on insanity or disease. Workaholism is no different than alcoholism at its core. Both are extremely destructive. Well at least with the former, there will hopefully be money to pay one's medical and early funeral bills.

lifthrasiir 8y ago
You are generally right, but in the tech sector the work culture is highly variable---I'm saying this as a native Korean having worked for Korean tech companies for a decade, and I have heard similar accounts for Japan. South Korea also enjoys a universal healthcare for everyone; there are mandatory healthcare plans for long-term foreigners as well AFAIK. They do generally have lower tolerance on diversity issues (even while the workplace can be much better, the society is not), so that's something to keep in mind.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  Healthcare is a big issue in America for the poor and working class, for white collar professionals it generally isn't nearly as much.
mr_overalls 8y ago
I'm curious if the work culture differs outside of large cities like Tokyo, Yokohama, etc.?
astonex 8y ago
New law in Korea means workers are limited to 40 hours a week now, with maximum 12 hours overtime at 150% pay. I work at Korea's biggest tech company and the law is strictly followed.

anjc 8y ago

Any non-Japanese person who wants to work there should think long and hard, and give it a trial first. Poor pay, strong work culture, stifling weather and crazy weather events for much of the year...it's no paradise. You'll frequently see things happen which are downright illegal in the Western world. For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist but live there and you'll see it. It's sad that some introverted/vulnerable people seem to gravitate towards Japanese culture. If the Japanese themselves have a tough time in their own society then why do outsiders expect to fare any better.

glandium 8y ago
> For example, being explicitly denied service because you're not Japanese. You might not see these things as a tourist but live there and you'll see it. There are very few such places. I haven't seen any myself, and I don't know first-hand anyone who has seen any themselves either. The rare cases I heard about were all a shortcut made to essentially mean "can't serve people that don't speak Japanese". As in, they did actually serve foreigners that speak Japanese. Which is somehow understandable, although the form might not be appropriate. Speaking of form, it is worth noting that when combined with poor English, the signs can be huge fails in meaning. For example "Japanese only" can mean "Japanese people only" or "Japanese language only". I'm sure there are many ways people with good intentions can end up with badly worded signs. And obviously, a foreigner seeing a badly worded sign is unlikely to tell them the sign is badly worded, keeping the status quo in place. I've actually heard of instances of foreigners telling about signs, with the signs being replaced as a result.
- anjc 8y ago
  I see this argument frequently, that it's actually a rare occurrence, and that foreigners are just misinterpreting a reasonable request to speak the local language. Well I've tested this. When you're confronted by owners saying "Japanese only!" while shooing you out of an establishment before assessing your speaking ability, it's clear that it isn't a misinterpretation. This isn't out in the sticks either, busy parts of Tokyo in touristy areas. I'm a middle aged academic too, not exactly the type to ever cause trouble. Deny service in Europe in this manner and see what happens. I don't even care, personally. They can serve who they want. It just may be a shock to people who assume that the Japanese will be largely welcoming of outsiders.

sevensor 8y ago

Pedantry, I know, but I don't think caché means what the author thinks it means. Pretty sure cachet was intended.

ArtWomb 8y ago

Sugoi! I'd be interested in hearing the price breakdown for living in Tokyo at current exchange rates ($USDJPY = 110.00)? For a moderate two bedroom in a cool neighborhood? As well as office space. And how is the availability of gigabit residential fiber options. Say, comparable to Verizon FIOS (~$150/mo)? In short, if anyone has set up a remote office for 2-3 months or even permanently I'd love to hear their experiences ;)

Aeolun 8y ago
* 2 bedroom in cool neighborhood: $2100/month * office space (3 people) somewhere central, shared facilities, private office: $2000/month * residential gigabit (min 1 year contract): $60/month * food for one month, either eating out or buying decent groceries and cooking: $800/month --- Those are off the top of my head. I'm not very interested in living in a cool neighborhood and rent where I live is more like $1400 (office space is presumably correspondingly lower).
- rc_hadoken 8y ago
  Way more affordable than I thought. I'm guessing the office space is split and a 1bedroom is 1300~?
- WhompingWindows 8y ago
  Sounds similar to Providence, RI regarding expenses. I'd wager a similar lifestyle in Boston, MA would go for $1k more than what you've listed, finding a 2 BR in a cool neighborhood of Boston area is probably going to be $3k or more.
- vorpalhex 8y ago
  How do restaurant prices compare to grocery prices typically? Do folks tend to go out as often as they do in the US?
  - 0xCMP 8y ago
    Just came back from a trip and most restaurant prices match the US in cities. Cheaper places go for around $6-7/meal. Most end up being around $20/meal (+/- 5). Obviously cooking at home or snacking ($1-3/snack) from convince stores lowers that amount. Most prices include tax and there is never a tip.

knbknb 8y ago

Recently, there was a long autobiographic thread on twitter about a young US woman who could not make it into an adequante job in the gaming industry, simply because she is a woman. For women, it seems to be very hard to find a job generally, with few exceptions. For example, plenty of Nanny jobs seem to be available in Japan.

Grue3 8y ago

I'm thinking of moving to Japan myself. Really enjoyed visiting it as a tourist. I learned the language for my side-project and planning to take a language proficiency test this December. Anybody need a Python programmer who worked at Yandex?

lanevorockz 8y ago

The crazy political correctness is turning anyone working on Silicon Valley into a paranoid person. You are expected to behave and think in a certain way, being an individual is not acceptable.

leogiertz 8y ago
And you think moving to Japan will alleviate that?
- chosenbreed 8y ago
  > And you think moving to Japan will alleviate that? :-)

Fej 8y ago

Japan is not anime.

nayuki 8y ago
It kind of is, especially in a relative sense. I was in Japan for a few weeks this year. Some of the unique anime things that I found in Japan that I don't see in North America: * Anime girls (specifically Azur Lane) plastered all over Yamanote Line trains * Shops playing music from animes I've watched and other recognizable Jpop music * Anime-themed cafes (Gundam, Card Captor Sakura, etc.) * Stores for secondhand anime goods * Rentable display cases to sell your anime goods * Anime mascots printed on public banners * Gaming arcades with anime goods * Conversely, the way that cities, train stations, and other scenes are depicted in anime is fairly accurate to how Japan looks like in real life This is not to say that Japan is 100% anime, because that is obviously false. All I'm saying is that if you want to see a place that upholds the anime lifestyle more than anywhere else in the world, then Japan is the only answer.

timwaagh 8y ago

It sounds like an interesting idea. Certainly Japan is an interesting place. In general I envy those who get to move abroad to work. The adventure appeals to me. These days I might be good enough for it too. It wasn't always that way,but certainly I'm currently one of the more capable engineers on my team. But the ties that bind are too strong still. I will stay here. To those who get to do this, I wish them a good ride.

emchamp1 8y ago

This sounds oddly familiar to me, I worked in Japan for a year and a half despite taking a large paycut from my job back in the US because I wanted to explore something new. I ultimately left to Silicon Valley ironically because they were offering nearly 4x the pay and better learning opportunities (the Japanese compensation structure is not kind to new grads and SV has ridiculous COL). However I loved my time in Japan and my ultimate career goal is to somehow move back there but with a better opportunity. Good to see some people finding gainful employment over there, it really is a great place to live.

0xCMP 8y ago

People are mentioning pricing for living there. I just visited, so not the same, but noticed some things. 1. Many things try to round out to a flat amount (¥100 instead ¥253). Some places don't. 2. Cash is king. Many places refuse to accept credit or contactless payments if you carry cash. Some places only accept Cash. You can see this when you look up places on Google Maps. 3. Coins are used for denominations of 1 cent up to $5. $10 is the first bill you get so be prepared to carry lots of coins. Also, I still don't understand the reason for it, but they usually refuse to pay things using two methods (e.g. to get rid of the 35(!!) ¥1 coins I had). 4. Tax is usually included or a second price, higher price is shown with the tax included. As in #1 you may see on receipts with tax included. E.g. ¥2000 first shown as total with a smaller number of ¥1740 as sub total and then the final amount with tax included (same as total). 5. There was never a tip where I went and I believe it's not done pretty much anywhere. 6. Many things in major cities are being adjusted for the olympics so things are actually fairly nice for foreigners to get around. 7. Besides going between major areas most train cards can be used in most other places. Assuming you land in Tokyo (e.g. HND) you can get a Suica card for the subway and put ¥2000 on it. It takes face ¥500 as a deposit on the card. I used the same card in Tokyo, Kyoto, and Osaka. sn: That card can be moved to your phone in to Apple Pay if you switch to Japan region in your iOS settings (language and etc doesn't need to change). Apple doesn't require FaceID for it so you can swipe to enter subway super easily with just your phone. Once you do this you get the ¥500 deposit on the card back to use without returning the card. 8. Neat trick for changing prices is put a decimal after first two numbers since your in ¥100 == $0.90 != $1.00, but it's close enough. 9. Restaurants often have english menus, especially in cities, but it's much better experience to be able to read normal menus. At least I'm assuming given I know basically no Japanese. 10. Food and restaurants are comparable to the US. Cheaper meals are $6-7 where nicer sit down restaurants are around $16-25. 11. As far as cheap food: FamilyMart bread is a must try. Also the various Rice+Seaweed+Protein meals are cool.