6 ms·

An indirect reminder that now that YC China is a thing @sama and @paulg and any other affiliated will have to avoid saying anything negative about China in orde

An indirect reminder that now that YC China is a thing @sama and @paulg and any other affiliated will have to avoid saying anything negative about China in order to keep doing business there.

adventured 8y ago
If YC China succeeds and becomes big there, it'll inevitably draw Chinese attention back to YC US including news.ycombinator.com. I would expect they'll have to begin blocking sensitive discussions on HN in the near future. The wave of one hand is all it takes to destroy YC China, because of one upsetting thread on HN getting back to authorities in China. If they plan to stay in bed with China and all that entails, it might not be a bad idea to formally separate HN off from YC (for the sake of YC and the sake of HN). The Chinese authorities are extremely sensitive about certain things, easily insulted, and unforgiving about the lack of compliance. They've barred far larger targets for far less than the discussions that go on here.
- Rotdhizon 8y ago
  If that time comes it will be interesting to see how the owners of ycombinator react. China's anger has made many high profile companies fold at the earliest signs of tension. Remember the guy who got fired from the hotel chain because he was logged in to the hotel social media account and simply like a pro-Taiwan post? Within days China had put pressure on the hotel to get rid of him. Remember when the clothing company put out a shirt that showed a map of the world and had Taiwan as its own country? Chinese pressure made them completely pull that piece of clothing and redesign it to remove Taiwan. God forbid they allow Chinese moderators on HN or some type of Chinese-centric oversight
- oh-kumudo 8y ago
  HN is already blocked. Funny, right?
  - yorwba 8y ago
    Where? Over the last 2 years I visited HN from China almost daily without any issues. I'm no longer there, but this test seems to indicate that HN is not blocked: https://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=news.ycombinator.com https://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=news.ycombinato...
  - shalmanese 8y ago
    HN isn't blocked in China
    - oh-kumudo 8y ago
      Well it is definitely blocked last time when I was in China, or in Beijing, but that is like 3 years ago.
- chaostheory 8y ago
  All it takes is for a stuffed bear related post to make the front page.
- thatcat 8y ago
  YC and HN are symbiotic. Much easier to just make YCChina and news.ycchina considering it won't be in English. >They've barred far larger targets for far less than the discussions that go on here. Can you give any example of China successfully censoring any large media companies outside of their own territory?
driverdan 8y ago
They should issue public statements condemn China's terrible rights violations now and promise they won't retract them. Establish integrity and refuse to give it up in the name of Chinese money.
- robdachshund 8y ago
  Tell that to the people decrying tariffs and saying we can never bring back American manufacturing. The only reason for the state of things is that we've tolerated both utilizing industrial era labor standards and outsourcing all of our manufacturing. If China is forced to bring its labor standards to 1st world levels, there is no reason why we can't both purchase goods from them at a better rate, while improving our buying power by revitalizing dead industries within our nation. We can't keep buying dirt cheap goods from the east while also complaining about our economic woes. If we could get people to understand that moving to this quasi slave labor is the reason we are now having to depend on it maybe we could break this feedback loop. But as things are now, we are in a catch 22. We dont have a strong economy because we have outsourced our manufacturing, and now can only afford to keep relying on that labor. China is going to have to deal with actually developing their economy. They have become an economic superpower by essentially being allowed to cheat the system. It is now negatively impacting global economies and their business model is utterly unsustainable. We are seeing things improve with their labor standards due to public outcry, and now we are starting to rebuild by reintroducing stateside manufacturing and tariffs. We shouldn't need to rely on China for anything other than rare earth minerals and luxury goods that can't be produced in the west.
justinzollars 8y ago
Miss out in the future number one market on earth or stand up for human rights? Certainly a scary future.
- lainga 8y ago
  It's happened before. Think of all the Fanta those settlers in the Reichskommissariat Moskau are going to drink!
- ryandrake 8y ago
  > future number one market on earth Is there an example of a western brand that has yet gained significant traction in China? My understanding is that unless you are a Chinese company, your chances of competing in this “number one” market are slim. Businesses obsess at the population numbers but ignore the reality.
  - monocasa 8y ago
    iPhones?
  - robinduckett 8y ago
    Apple
  - lainga 8y ago
    There are over 5,000 KFC locations in China
  - walrus01 8y ago
    Buick, oddly enough. https://www.google.com/search?q=buick+china+popularity&oq=buick+china&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j5j0l2.4717j0j4&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=buick+china+popularity&oq=bu...
  - adventured 8y ago
    The trick isn't whether these brands can access China, it's in what manner. Western brands sell very well in China, who gets the proceeds is the issue. The big European luxury goods brands are doing a wild business in China. [1][2][3][4] If you want to make a lot of money on China as a foreigner, you want to be selling a luxury brand product rather than offering a local service (eg fast food chain). That might be an iPhone or a Gucci bag or a Mercedes. Owning certain intellectual property, such as characters, can be equally lucrative (eg Marvel and Mickey Mouse). Nike and Jordan Brand have done a great business in China. KFC in China for example, isn't controlled by Yum Brands US. It's controlled by Yum China, minority owned by Yum US. McDonald's has a small sliver of its own business in China. Disney only owns 43% of its big new $5.5b park in Shanghai, the most popular park in China. Wang Jianlin had touted that he'd personally chase Disney from China, and that his parks would dominate instead. Disney really had no choice but to acquiesce and partner up. They'll make a lot of money from it and they had to cede control to do that. Tesla is building a factory in China for the same reason everyone else has, there is no great alternative. You have to give local Chinese partners their big cut, or else. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-26/l-oreal-gets-a-lift-from-china-s-demand-for-luxury-cosmetics https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-26/l-oreal-g... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-20/hermes-expects-profitability-near-record-as-china-boom-continues https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-20/hermes-ex... [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/lvmh-shines-as-luxury-s-allure-eclipses-trade-war-fears-in-china https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/lvmh-shin... [4] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-28/luxury-back-in-vogue-as-china-s-women-middle-class-lead-the-way https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-28/luxury-ba...
tsuabing 8y ago
I'm Taiwanese, and I would have second and third thought about applying to YC, given the relationship Sam wants to have with Chinese government. I would imagine that muslims, people from Hong Kong and Tibet, Japan, Vietnam, people that would prefer democracies over authoritarian governments, libertarians, techies that treasure freedom on the net, would hesitate and would not apply to YC for moral reasons.

An indirect reminder that now that YC China is a thing @sama and @paulg and any other affiliated will have to avoid saying anything negative about China in order to keep doing business there.

adventured 8y ago

If YC China succeeds and becomes big there, it'll inevitably draw Chinese attention back to YC US including news.ycombinator.com. I would expect they'll have to begin blocking sensitive discussions on HN in the near future. The wave of one hand is all it takes to destroy YC China, because of one upsetting thread on HN getting back to authorities in China. If they plan to stay in bed with China and all that entails, it might not be a bad idea to formally separate HN off from YC (for the sake of YC and the sake of HN). The Chinese authorities are extremely sensitive about certain things, easily insulted, and unforgiving about the lack of compliance. They've barred far larger targets for far less than the discussions that go on here.

Rotdhizon 8y ago
If that time comes it will be interesting to see how the owners of ycombinator react. China's anger has made many high profile companies fold at the earliest signs of tension. Remember the guy who got fired from the hotel chain because he was logged in to the hotel social media account and simply like a pro-Taiwan post? Within days China had put pressure on the hotel to get rid of him. Remember when the clothing company put out a shirt that showed a map of the world and had Taiwan as its own country? Chinese pressure made them completely pull that piece of clothing and redesign it to remove Taiwan. God forbid they allow Chinese moderators on HN or some type of Chinese-centric oversight
oh-kumudo 8y ago
HN is already blocked. Funny, right?
- yorwba 8y ago
  Where? Over the last 2 years I visited HN from China almost daily without any issues. I'm no longer there, but this test seems to indicate that HN is not blocked: https://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=news.ycombinator.com https://viewdns.info/chinesefirewall/?domain=news.ycombinato...
- shalmanese 8y ago
  HN isn't blocked in China
  - oh-kumudo 8y ago
    Well it is definitely blocked last time when I was in China, or in Beijing, but that is like 3 years ago.
chaostheory 8y ago
All it takes is for a stuffed bear related post to make the front page.
thatcat 8y ago
YC and HN are symbiotic. Much easier to just make YCChina and news.ycchina considering it won't be in English. >They've barred far larger targets for far less than the discussions that go on here. Can you give any example of China successfully censoring any large media companies outside of their own territory?

driverdan 8y ago

They should issue public statements condemn China's terrible rights violations now and promise they won't retract them. Establish integrity and refuse to give it up in the name of Chinese money.

robdachshund 8y ago
Tell that to the people decrying tariffs and saying we can never bring back American manufacturing. The only reason for the state of things is that we've tolerated both utilizing industrial era labor standards and outsourcing all of our manufacturing. If China is forced to bring its labor standards to 1st world levels, there is no reason why we can't both purchase goods from them at a better rate, while improving our buying power by revitalizing dead industries within our nation. We can't keep buying dirt cheap goods from the east while also complaining about our economic woes. If we could get people to understand that moving to this quasi slave labor is the reason we are now having to depend on it maybe we could break this feedback loop. But as things are now, we are in a catch 22. We dont have a strong economy because we have outsourced our manufacturing, and now can only afford to keep relying on that labor. China is going to have to deal with actually developing their economy. They have become an economic superpower by essentially being allowed to cheat the system. It is now negatively impacting global economies and their business model is utterly unsustainable. We are seeing things improve with their labor standards due to public outcry, and now we are starting to rebuild by reintroducing stateside manufacturing and tariffs. We shouldn't need to rely on China for anything other than rare earth minerals and luxury goods that can't be produced in the west.

justinzollars 8y ago

Miss out in the future number one market on earth or stand up for human rights? Certainly a scary future.

lainga 8y ago
It's happened before. Think of all the Fanta those settlers in the Reichskommissariat Moskau are going to drink!
ryandrake 8y ago
> future number one market on earth Is there an example of a western brand that has yet gained significant traction in China? My understanding is that unless you are a Chinese company, your chances of competing in this “number one” market are slim. Businesses obsess at the population numbers but ignore the reality.
- monocasa 8y ago
  iPhones?
- robinduckett 8y ago
  Apple
- lainga 8y ago
  There are over 5,000 KFC locations in China
- walrus01 8y ago
  Buick, oddly enough. https://www.google.com/search?q=buick+china+popularity&oq=buick+china&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j5j0l2.4717j0j4&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=buick+china+popularity&oq=bu...
- adventured 8y ago
  The trick isn't whether these brands can access China, it's in what manner. Western brands sell very well in China, who gets the proceeds is the issue. The big European luxury goods brands are doing a wild business in China. [1][2][3][4] If you want to make a lot of money on China as a foreigner, you want to be selling a luxury brand product rather than offering a local service (eg fast food chain). That might be an iPhone or a Gucci bag or a Mercedes. Owning certain intellectual property, such as characters, can be equally lucrative (eg Marvel and Mickey Mouse). Nike and Jordan Brand have done a great business in China. KFC in China for example, isn't controlled by Yum Brands US. It's controlled by Yum China, minority owned by Yum US. McDonald's has a small sliver of its own business in China. Disney only owns 43% of its big new $5.5b park in Shanghai, the most popular park in China. Wang Jianlin had touted that he'd personally chase Disney from China, and that his parks would dominate instead. Disney really had no choice but to acquiesce and partner up. They'll make a lot of money from it and they had to cede control to do that. Tesla is building a factory in China for the same reason everyone else has, there is no great alternative. You have to give local Chinese partners their big cut, or else. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-26/l-oreal-gets-a-lift-from-china-s-demand-for-luxury-cosmetics https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-26/l-oreal-g... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-20/hermes-expects-profitability-near-record-as-china-boom-continues https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-20/hermes-ex... [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/lvmh-shines-as-luxury-s-allure-eclipses-trade-war-fears-in-china https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/lvmh-shin... [4] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-28/luxury-back-in-vogue-as-china-s-women-middle-class-lead-the-way https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-28/luxury-ba...

tsuabing 8y ago

I'm Taiwanese, and I would have second and third thought about applying to YC, given the relationship Sam wants to have with Chinese government. I would imagine that muslims, people from Hong Kong and Tibet, Japan, Vietnam, people that would prefer democracies over authoritarian governments, libertarians, techies that treasure freedom on the net, would hesitate and would not apply to YC for moral reasons.