9 ms·

Malaysia Resists China’s Investments, Fearing ‘Colonialism’

171 points by ilamont 8y ago

raheemm 8y ago
The Chinese government deployed a similar tactic in Sri Lanka, building a sea part that is unnecessary, with easy loans, which Sri Lanka defaulted on, leading to China taking ownership. It then deployed a submarine to the port, alarming both Sri Lanka and India. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lanka-port.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lank...
- gumby 8y ago
  This example is not just discussed in the article but was cited by Malaysian officials as an example of what they are worried about.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > leading to China taking ownership. It then deployed a submarine to the port, alarming both Sri Lanka and India. "Bigger pile of money" diplomacy meets "bigger gun" diplomacy. It shoudn't be surprising. We did the same thing under the Monroe Doctrine. But it's been long enough that many in the West have forgotten about it.
  - iamshs 8y ago
    With China, US taxpayer money is on line too. Take a closer look at Pakistan’s case. China promised $42B investments, Pakistan’s CAD widened. Pakistan seeks $15B bailout from IMF, which US has opposed as it will just go to Chinese. So a very tumultuous future ahead, this colonialism adventure of China will bring. Severe pain for India, as Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Maldives, Bangladesh, Nepal and Myanmar have Chinese presence now, just a matter of time when the boots land. String of pearls, as it is called.
- coconut_crab 8y ago
  The same thing is happening in Cambodia, or Laos, Or Myamnar: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jul/31/no-cambodia-left-chinese-money-changing-sihanoukville https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jul/31/no-cambodia-l... https://laotiantimes.com/2017/05/16/chinas-investments-costing-people-laos/ https://laotiantimes.com/2017/05/16/chinas-investments-costi... Part of the reasons why countries are wary is because the Chinese just doesn't play nice with the local: all the contractors are Chinese companies, the business is run by Chinese, the tourists use RMB and doesn't respect local culture etc... Maybe it will take them 10~20 years to learn the lesson.
- i_feel_great 8y ago
  Even in tiny Pacific nations such as Samoa, where the incompetent and corrupt government officials welcome such easy loans which the country can never pay back. Samoa is now on the hook for $US1b, for loans that cannot be traced to anything anywhere. The government has refused to publish accounts for almost a decade now so no one knows where the money has gone. So Samoa will use their vote to support any Chinese motion no matter what.
- CitizenTekk 8y ago
  Well if you have the source of power (money) you know you can do good and bad stuff. Malaysia did the right thing as being patriot and all. China like to do a "friendly war". They become good at first but you know there's a price of being good, and when you resist, you'll get bullied. "Communism" at it's finest. Look at what it did to Philippines. They know Philippines has no match on its firepower they created a military base within its territorial sea but in a brighter side, they give support aid to Philippines, attack and release.
everdev 8y ago
I'm curious if there's a precedent for countries with strong (and balanced) economic ties going to war. With sanctions and protectionism, I wonder if the barriers to war are actually reduced.
- lainga 8y ago
  Tell that to the Qing circa 1842.
- mcguire 8y ago
  That was the argument before WWI.
- EvilEndures 8y ago
  While it has happened, the West's free trade and globalist policies are built on the belief that trade greatly reduces the odds of war. The WTO, the UN, the EU, etc. are all built on the idea that strong/fair economic ties reduce the risk of WWI/WWII type conflicts.
amaccuish 8y ago
I would argue it's not colonialism, these countries can always say no, it just depends on political will and strength. That's not really China's fault or concern. Again, the US has done similar things in the past, hence the numerous US air force bases scattered around the world. It's simply practical to gain soft power, and then convert that soft power into harder power.
- EvilEndures 8y ago
  > I would argue it's not colonialism, these countries can always say no, it just depends on political will and strength. That's not really China's fault or concern. That is the US's rational for doing the same thing, yes. It doesn't end well. It results in stuff like the Iranian revolution. Installing and/or supporting "friendly leaders" who then push deals that are against the local national interest results in a great deal of hostility in the long run. The reason the US is hated isn't that the US is evil. It is the fact the US meddled in the affairs of others more than they should have and then leveraged concessions beyond what the native population wanted. China is repeating that mistake. > Again, the US has done similar things in the past, hence the numerous US air force bases scattered around the world. It's simply practical to gain soft power, and then convert that soft power into harder power. Practical? Yes. If you are expecting to go to war. If no war materializes, you've destroyed any chance of popular support in that country indefinitely. China is burning bridges with the native populations in these countries that won't go away in 5 years.
  - macspoofing 8y ago
    >It doesn't end well. Why not? >It results in stuff like the Iranian revolution. Also resulted in the greatest era in human history in terms of peace and prosperity. >It is the fact the US meddled in the affairs of others more than they should have and then leveraged concessions beyond what the native population wanted. I think it's hard being at the top and maintaining global order. You get blamed for everything and you get credit for nothing.
    - EvilEndures 8y ago
adventured 8y ago
This is going on all over the world currently, from the US to Europe to Asia: "Doors Slam Shut for China Deals Around the World" https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-20/doors-slam-shut-for-china-deals-around-the-world https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-20/doors-sla...
rccrv 8y ago
Oh great another attempt at the daily China thread on HN. With both the whatabowtists and the anti-China hawks trying to outplay each other in the moral outrage game. There are plenty of subreddits for those who like to astroturf about China ranging from anti-China hawks to pro-Beijing trolls. Sorry for the cynicism, but I really dislike astroturfers.
- RandomInteger4 8y ago
  Can you cite specific users making comments which you know or believe to be coming from large organizations acting as if they're simply individuals?
  - rccrv 8y ago
    Why does astroturfing need to come from a large organization? A bunch of like-minded users could be enough depending on the volume of commenting or voting. They also don't need to be paid and even have centralized management. I've seen a couple of userames popping on these threads all the time. And China related threads have an odd number of new accounts posting comments in them. It can be people that have to live anonymously lest they have to deal with dictatorships or it can also be the same group of people posting the same opinions all over again. As for names, there is two users in this thread that are posting in almost every China-related thread for at least a month or so. I won't particularly point to them, since I'm not sure it goes well with the guidelines Though it didn't happen on HN, the unidan case on reddit is a good example. The guy basically manipulated voting in a large subreddit on his own by using a number of alternative accounts to upvote his own comments. Anyway, if that is the direction HN is headed and this is regarded as acceptable, then I'm leaving. I don't tolerate propaganda or people spreading it. This is on the guidelines: "Please don't use Hacker News primarily for political or ideological battle." A bunch of users forget about that and I won't be around a website that goes into it.
    - stickfigure 8y ago
      Why does astroturfing need to come from a large organization? A bunch of like-minded users could be enough We have an actual word for this: grassroots.
tepidandroid 8y ago
Every single day, sometimes multiple times a day, there are posts on HN pushing one anti-China narrative or another. Every single day there is a barrage of anti-China armchair experts all too happy to wax poetic about the evils of communism, the CPC and authoritarianism. I have to say, it's becoming more and more of an /r/Worldnews-esque, politically polarised echo-chamber in here and it's a huge turn-off. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way and I can only imagine the great expert commenters this board is losing because of this.
- JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
  Or maybe China is just really horrible about human rights and there are a lot of articles about it because that is good journalism? This is a NY Times article about an important subject published today, why should this not be on HN?
  - est 8y ago
    The thing is 110% users on HN already knew china was the bad guy The rest are shitpost clickbaiting and comment circlejerking
  - tepidandroid 8y ago
    I'm not the authority on what should or should not be posted on HN. What I can say is that I preferred the version of HN where the eclectic and mind-opening topics would get voted to the top and thought provoking debate from domain experts would be left in the comments. Increasingly it's posts directly from main-stream media pushing the main-stream media narrative, and the comments serve little to no value other than providing a place to declare one's political ideologies. If I wanted to read main-stream media I would be reading it.
  - colordrops 8y ago
    The US is arguably a worse abuser of human rights, internationally if not domestically, and yet every story about the US doesn't devolve into a big discussion about US's human rights abuses. Imagine if every article about the US talked about our hundreds of military bases, the millions dead in the middle east due to US war, the current war in Yemen, and all the dictatorships the US has installed over the years.
cylim 8y ago
What Mathatir said is "Fair Trade over Free Trade", instead of fear. A country as wealthy as China can quickly take over most of the assets in Malaysia, which is another form of colonialization.
Leary 8y ago
The Malaysian PM was quite conciliatory in his remarks. https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/20/asia/china-malaysia-mahathir-visit-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/20/asia/china-malaysia-mahathir-...
- princeb 8y ago
  the missing context is that the previous PM greenlighted projects from China that were v likely greenlighted because of kickbacks to him and his retinue rather than because of the merit and profitability to the country. china, among other things, was simply one of many bogeymen attacked in the election campaign leading up to BN's defeat. mahathir knows better than to turn down good investment money, but the general view of the previous adminstration was that a lot of money was invested in malaysia only to exclusively benefit the chinese.
zenbai 8y ago
Wow. The most interesting thing I learned is Mahathir is now 93.

171 points by ilamont 8y ago

The Chinese government deployed a similar tactic in Sri Lanka, building a sea part that is unnecessary, with easy loans, which Sri Lanka defaulted on, leading to China taking ownership. It then deployed a submarine to the port, alarming both Sri Lanka and India. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lanka-port.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/world/asia/china-sri-lank...

gumby 8y ago
This example is not just discussed in the article but was cited by Malaysian officials as an example of what they are worried about.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> leading to China taking ownership. It then deployed a submarine to the port, alarming both Sri Lanka and India. "Bigger pile of money" diplomacy meets "bigger gun" diplomacy. It shoudn't be surprising. We did the same thing under the Monroe Doctrine. But it's been long enough that many in the West have forgotten about it.
- iamshs 8y ago
  With China, US taxpayer money is on line too. Take a closer look at Pakistan’s case. China promised $42B investments, Pakistan’s CAD widened. Pakistan seeks $15B bailout from IMF, which US has opposed as it will just go to Chinese. So a very tumultuous future ahead, this colonialism adventure of China will bring. Severe pain for India, as Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Maldives, Bangladesh, Nepal and Myanmar have Chinese presence now, just a matter of time when the boots land. String of pearls, as it is called.
coconut_crab 8y ago
The same thing is happening in Cambodia, or Laos, Or Myamnar: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jul/31/no-cambodia-left-chinese-money-changing-sihanoukville https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jul/31/no-cambodia-l... https://laotiantimes.com/2017/05/16/chinas-investments-costing-people-laos/ https://laotiantimes.com/2017/05/16/chinas-investments-costi... Part of the reasons why countries are wary is because the Chinese just doesn't play nice with the local: all the contractors are Chinese companies, the business is run by Chinese, the tourists use RMB and doesn't respect local culture etc... Maybe it will take them 10~20 years to learn the lesson.
i_feel_great 8y ago
Even in tiny Pacific nations such as Samoa, where the incompetent and corrupt government officials welcome such easy loans which the country can never pay back. Samoa is now on the hook for $US1b, for loans that cannot be traced to anything anywhere. The government has refused to publish accounts for almost a decade now so no one knows where the money has gone. So Samoa will use their vote to support any Chinese motion no matter what.
CitizenTekk 8y ago
Well if you have the source of power (money) you know you can do good and bad stuff. Malaysia did the right thing as being patriot and all. China like to do a "friendly war". They become good at first but you know there's a price of being good, and when you resist, you'll get bullied. "Communism" at it's finest. Look at what it did to Philippines. They know Philippines has no match on its firepower they created a military base within its territorial sea but in a brighter side, they give support aid to Philippines, attack and release.

everdev 8y ago

I'm curious if there's a precedent for countries with strong (and balanced) economic ties going to war. With sanctions and protectionism, I wonder if the barriers to war are actually reduced.

lainga 8y ago
Tell that to the Qing circa 1842.
mcguire 8y ago
That was the argument before WWI.
EvilEndures 8y ago
While it has happened, the West's free trade and globalist policies are built on the belief that trade greatly reduces the odds of war. The WTO, the UN, the EU, etc. are all built on the idea that strong/fair economic ties reduce the risk of WWI/WWII type conflicts.

amaccuish 8y ago

I would argue it's not colonialism, these countries can always say no, it just depends on political will and strength. That's not really China's fault or concern. Again, the US has done similar things in the past, hence the numerous US air force bases scattered around the world. It's simply practical to gain soft power, and then convert that soft power into harder power.

EvilEndures 8y ago
> I would argue it's not colonialism, these countries can always say no, it just depends on political will and strength. That's not really China's fault or concern. That is the US's rational for doing the same thing, yes. It doesn't end well. It results in stuff like the Iranian revolution. Installing and/or supporting "friendly leaders" who then push deals that are against the local national interest results in a great deal of hostility in the long run. The reason the US is hated isn't that the US is evil. It is the fact the US meddled in the affairs of others more than they should have and then leveraged concessions beyond what the native population wanted. China is repeating that mistake. > Again, the US has done similar things in the past, hence the numerous US air force bases scattered around the world. It's simply practical to gain soft power, and then convert that soft power into harder power. Practical? Yes. If you are expecting to go to war. If no war materializes, you've destroyed any chance of popular support in that country indefinitely. China is burning bridges with the native populations in these countries that won't go away in 5 years.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  >It doesn't end well. Why not? >It results in stuff like the Iranian revolution. Also resulted in the greatest era in human history in terms of peace and prosperity. >It is the fact the US meddled in the affairs of others more than they should have and then leveraged concessions beyond what the native population wanted. I think it's hard being at the top and maintaining global order. You get blamed for everything and you get credit for nothing.
  - EvilEndures 8y ago

adventured 8y ago

This is going on all over the world currently, from the US to Europe to Asia: "Doors Slam Shut for China Deals Around the World" https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-20/doors-slam-shut-for-china-deals-around-the-world https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-20/doors-sla...

rccrv 8y ago

Oh great another attempt at the daily China thread on HN. With both the whatabowtists and the anti-China hawks trying to outplay each other in the moral outrage game. There are plenty of subreddits for those who like to astroturf about China ranging from anti-China hawks to pro-Beijing trolls. Sorry for the cynicism, but I really dislike astroturfers.

RandomInteger4 8y ago
Can you cite specific users making comments which you know or believe to be coming from large organizations acting as if they're simply individuals?
- rccrv 8y ago
  Why does astroturfing need to come from a large organization? A bunch of like-minded users could be enough depending on the volume of commenting or voting. They also don't need to be paid and even have centralized management. I've seen a couple of userames popping on these threads all the time. And China related threads have an odd number of new accounts posting comments in them. It can be people that have to live anonymously lest they have to deal with dictatorships or it can also be the same group of people posting the same opinions all over again. As for names, there is two users in this thread that are posting in almost every China-related thread for at least a month or so. I won't particularly point to them, since I'm not sure it goes well with the guidelines Though it didn't happen on HN, the unidan case on reddit is a good example. The guy basically manipulated voting in a large subreddit on his own by using a number of alternative accounts to upvote his own comments. Anyway, if that is the direction HN is headed and this is regarded as acceptable, then I'm leaving. I don't tolerate propaganda or people spreading it. This is on the guidelines: "Please don't use Hacker News primarily for political or ideological battle." A bunch of users forget about that and I won't be around a website that goes into it.
  - stickfigure 8y ago
    Why does astroturfing need to come from a large organization? A bunch of like-minded users could be enough We have an actual word for this: grassroots.

tepidandroid 8y ago

Every single day, sometimes multiple times a day, there are posts on HN pushing one anti-China narrative or another. Every single day there is a barrage of anti-China armchair experts all too happy to wax poetic about the evils of communism, the CPC and authoritarianism. I have to say, it's becoming more and more of an /r/Worldnews-esque, politically polarised echo-chamber in here and it's a huge turn-off. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way and I can only imagine the great expert commenters this board is losing because of this.

JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
Or maybe China is just really horrible about human rights and there are a lot of articles about it because that is good journalism? This is a NY Times article about an important subject published today, why should this not be on HN?
- est 8y ago
  The thing is 110% users on HN already knew china was the bad guy The rest are shitpost clickbaiting and comment circlejerking
- tepidandroid 8y ago
  I'm not the authority on what should or should not be posted on HN. What I can say is that I preferred the version of HN where the eclectic and mind-opening topics would get voted to the top and thought provoking debate from domain experts would be left in the comments. Increasingly it's posts directly from main-stream media pushing the main-stream media narrative, and the comments serve little to no value other than providing a place to declare one's political ideologies. If I wanted to read main-stream media I would be reading it.
- colordrops 8y ago
  The US is arguably a worse abuser of human rights, internationally if not domestically, and yet every story about the US doesn't devolve into a big discussion about US's human rights abuses. Imagine if every article about the US talked about our hundreds of military bases, the millions dead in the middle east due to US war, the current war in Yemen, and all the dictatorships the US has installed over the years.

cylim 8y ago

What Mathatir said is "Fair Trade over Free Trade", instead of fear. A country as wealthy as China can quickly take over most of the assets in Malaysia, which is another form of colonialization.

Leary 8y ago

The Malaysian PM was quite conciliatory in his remarks. https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/20/asia/china-malaysia-mahathir-visit-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/20/asia/china-malaysia-mahathir-...

princeb 8y ago
the missing context is that the previous PM greenlighted projects from China that were v likely greenlighted because of kickbacks to him and his retinue rather than because of the merit and profitability to the country. china, among other things, was simply one of many bogeymen attacked in the election campaign leading up to BN's defeat. mahathir knows better than to turn down good investment money, but the general view of the previous adminstration was that a lot of money was invested in malaysia only to exclusively benefit the chinese.

zenbai 8y ago

Wow. The most interesting thing I learned is Mahathir is now 93.