6 ms·

Re: microfibers making it into water systems: This is a con to synthetic fibers that I hadn't been considering before. Recently I learned that cotton has a pre

by asteli 8y ago

Re: microfibers making it into water systems: This is a con to synthetic fibers that I hadn't been considering before. Recently I learned that cotton has a pretty high environmental footprint (land use, highest pesticide use of any crop, high water consumption) [1], and thus started moving some of my clothing purchases toward polyester-blends (trades the cons of cotton for petrochemical and energy use). Does anyone have a good grasp on the total environmental impact of these options, considering the entire chain (mining/extraction/cultivation -> disposal/environmental release)? [1]: https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/CBD-Fiber-Selection-FS.pdf https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/CBD-Fiber-Selection... [edit: added source]

AdamN 8y ago
Have you examined organic cotton?
- thaumaturgy 8y ago
  Organic isn't always better for the environment. I can sort of accept people's motivations for organic produce when it's a food product, but for textiles it really doesn't make much sense. Organic cotton requires more water, more land, and more energy than conventional or GMO cotton: https://qz.com/990178/your-organic-cotton-t-shirt-might-be-worse-for-the-environment-than-regular-cotton/ https://qz.com/990178/your-organic-cotton-t-shirt-might-be-w... A better answer in any case is to buy less stuff.
  - logicallee 8y ago
    (You might want to add that you're not OP i.e. asteli, the person AdamN directly asked. you have the same writing style, I was almost confused. If you do edit I'll delete this comment.)
NotQuantum 8y ago
There's this same argument with recycling, reuse, etc. I.E how many times do I have to use my cloth bag before the resources it took is less than that of a normal paper bag. Recycling is the same way, IIRC, aluminum is the only thing that's cheaper to recycle, energy wise. I really wish more studies would look into the Energy per Ton for creating our consumer products.
- dcbadacd 8y ago
  That's one thing to consider, but it's ignoring a major aspect - biodegradability. Yes, a plastic bag is in some ways more efficient per ton than a cloth bag but doesn't decompose safely and fast, cloth usually does.
  - marcosdumay 8y ago
    What's worse, adding some inert foreign molecules to the environment, or adding some CO2, excess nitrates, and excess phosphorous, taking down a bit of native vegetation, and revolving some more soil? I really don't know the answer, but I bet everybody on the anti-plastic crusade doesn't know either. I would really like if somebody cared to do some unbiased studies on this (not the ones full of flaws reinforcing the author desired answer - whatever that it).
    - code_duck 8y ago
      You mean, is natural gas extraction and processing more harmful than agriculture and recycling?
      - PeterisP 8y ago
        It seems plausible that a cloth bag requires a comparable amount of petrochemicals to make than a plastic bag, agriculture is quite fuel intensive and uses a bunch of other nasty chemicals in large amounts, while a few grams of plastic require just a few grams of oil - for me it's hard to tell whether growing sufficient cotton for a single bag (which is quite a bunch of cotton plants) can be done with a few grams of fuel.
        code_duck 8y ago
        Thankfully, this is studied by experts for their entire lives and we don’t have to learn the answers by speculating on Hacker News. I’ll note that what you’re comparing petroleum based manufacturing to is the most pointlessly intensively harmful and wasteful form of agriculture – growing conventional cotton.
bamboozled 8y ago
Checkout organic cotton and hemp. Much lower environmental footprint. You can get some really durable, long lasting, organic cotton and hemp blended clothing which is way more durable, breathable and comfortable than you might imagine. Patagonia (brand) is an easy place to buy organic cotton Tshirts and pants.
- inawarminister 8y ago
  Is it possible to buy a 100% hemp t-shirt? Also, how about linen shirts? I hear linen is much easier to grow compared to cotton?
- fenwick67 8y ago
  Does it really have a smaller footprint? I'd love to see numbers
  - kingkawn 8y ago
    Not adding eternally polluting particles to the environment seems like it must have smaller footprint
    - tylerhou 8y ago
      Organic != pollutes less. For example, some organic farms use more than an order of magnitude more (~20x) organic pesticides than regular farms use regular pesticides (by weight). Many of these organic pesticides have the potential for serious health risks. One organic pesticide, Rotenone, which was banned in the US in 2005 but reapproved in 2010, causes "Parkinson's Disease-like symptoms in rats, and has the potential to kill many species, including humans." [0] Organic farming also often requires more resources (land, water, etc.). The ecological damage of that extra resource use (soil erosion, water diversion) could far surpass any pollutants non-organic farms spew. [0] I don't know anything about cotton specifically, though. [0] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogsscientificamericancomscience-sushi20110718mythbusting-101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogs... (see myths 1 and 3)
olkid 8y ago
I wonder why hemp fiber didn't get compared independently. From a quick internet search: it is one fiber used in Tencel blend. I think hemp scores better on land usage, but not necessarily in the other categories. Is that your take?
bradly 8y ago
You can put your microfiber clothes in a specialized bag when washing to help prevent the fibers from making their way into the water systems. Here is one example of a bag: https://www.patagonia.com/product/guppyfriend-washing-bag/O2191.html https://www.patagonia.com/product/guppyfriend-washing-bag/O2...
- lawlessone 8y ago
  The bag is also plastic..
  - asteli 8y ago
    It's a nylon (polyamide) mesh. It's not going to spew microfibers in the same way that a polyester fleece would. For reference, I found you some micrographs of the materials we're talking about: poly fleece: https://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/microfiber-closeup-1400x788.jpg https://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/wp-content/uploads/201... nylon mesh: https://assets.fishersci.com/TFS-Assets/CCG/product-images/F587090~p.eps-650.jpg https://assets.fishersci.com/TFS-Assets/CCG/product-images/F...
bacon_waffle 8y ago
Wool is a great material to consider as well.
- Tharkun 8y ago
  Especially for socks during exercise. I find it helps keep my feet dry much more than cotton oe synthetics.
  - cmrdporcupine 8y ago
    Last year I discovered the joy that is merino wool ski clothes. A friend had a pro-discount on Icebreaker and I stocked up before a ski trip. Excellent stuff. Here's a good/entertaining video that compares synthetic to merino for ski layers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh8BFytupwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh8BFytupwA His conclusion is that the synthetic was just as warm, but the merino wool did a better job of dissipating .. aromas... and stayed 'clean' longer. It's unfortunate that a lot of the 'wool' out there is still blended with synthetics for cost or supposed-technical reasons.
- J-dawg 8y ago
  I want to believe that materials like wool are the answer, but I fear they're not. Raising animals is carbon intensive, and all those sheep need somewhere to graze. If people switched to wool clothing on a big scale, it would probably lead to mass deforestation.
  - schiffern 8y ago
    Sheep can graze in [re]forested pastures, ie silvopasture. This also sequesters carbon. http://stevegabrielfarmer.wixsite.com/silvopasturebook/single-post/2016/10/31/Six-Key-Principles-for-a-Successful-Silvopasture http://stevegabrielfarmer.wixsite.com/silvopasturebook/singl... https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/food/silvopasture https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/food/silvopasture
  - bacon_waffle 8y ago
    I agree that it's not the answer, but I think one of the main lessons we should be learning is that monocultures are not the answer either. Here in New Zealand, much of our agriculture has shifted from sheep to dairy cows. There's a growing fear (I don't know how justified it really is) that synthetic milk, or even meat, will become a reality and wreck the traditional dairy industry. So, in our situation, maybe more wool use would be a good thing.
a_imho 8y ago
I did not examine the claims in detail, but a few sport teams announced they will use a kit made from recovered ocean plastics. Probably worth looking into it? [1]http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/the-toe-poke/65/post/3569720/juventus-unveil-new-third-kit-made-from-recovered-ocean-plastics http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/the-toe-poke/65/post/3569720...
smu 8y ago
I'm also looking for quality research on the total cost from cradle to grave. Most of what I've seen either only considers part of the cost or gives advice without explaining the reasoning... For example: it's amazing how much discussion there is around using paper cups vs a ceramic cup. Or when plastic actually might be the best packaging material (keeping food fresh for longer and being lighter to transport). Can anyone here point to non-biased, well researched articles on this topic? I would imagine academia is a good place, but I don't know where to start.
christophilus 8y ago
I suspect that bamboo clothing is the way to go. Bamboo grows anywhere and requires very little input and no pesticides. I don't know what the carbon footprint of turning it into thread is, though. I suspect still smaller than polyester. Plus, bamboo clothes are super soft.
- corvallis 8y ago
  Bamboo itself is "green" but the process to turn it into textiles is anything but. The marketing of bamboo textiles relies on your assumption, which is why it has so far been doing well. https://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-fashion/whatever-happened-bamboo-clothing.html https://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-fashion/whatever-happ... https://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/11/06/bamboo-has-an-environmental-dark-side/ https://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/11/06/bamboo-has-a... The second article requires a subscription to WSJ but you can find the same information elsewhere on the web. My philosophy for a long time now has been to take good care of existing clothing/textiles, purchase used as much as possible, and purchase fewer items overall - only what I absolutely need to live my life in a reasonable manner, without excess or mindless purchases.
another-cuppa 8y ago
The best thing to do is probably to buy high quality clothes and keep them for a long time. Don't buy t-shirts (especially printed t-shirts) that wear out quickly and get disposed of. Buy shirts and take care of them. Don't wash them often. Wash then minimally when they become dirty. They'll last you many years this way.

by asteli 8y ago

AdamN 8y ago

Have you examined organic cotton?

thaumaturgy 8y ago
Organic isn't always better for the environment. I can sort of accept people's motivations for organic produce when it's a food product, but for textiles it really doesn't make much sense. Organic cotton requires more water, more land, and more energy than conventional or GMO cotton: https://qz.com/990178/your-organic-cotton-t-shirt-might-be-worse-for-the-environment-than-regular-cotton/ https://qz.com/990178/your-organic-cotton-t-shirt-might-be-w... A better answer in any case is to buy less stuff.
- logicallee 8y ago
  (You might want to add that you're not OP i.e. asteli, the person AdamN directly asked. you have the same writing style, I was almost confused. If you do edit I'll delete this comment.)

NotQuantum 8y ago

There's this same argument with recycling, reuse, etc. I.E how many times do I have to use my cloth bag before the resources it took is less than that of a normal paper bag. Recycling is the same way, IIRC, aluminum is the only thing that's cheaper to recycle, energy wise. I really wish more studies would look into the Energy per Ton for creating our consumer products.

dcbadacd 8y ago
That's one thing to consider, but it's ignoring a major aspect - biodegradability. Yes, a plastic bag is in some ways more efficient per ton than a cloth bag but doesn't decompose safely and fast, cloth usually does.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  What's worse, adding some inert foreign molecules to the environment, or adding some CO2, excess nitrates, and excess phosphorous, taking down a bit of native vegetation, and revolving some more soil? I really don't know the answer, but I bet everybody on the anti-plastic crusade doesn't know either. I would really like if somebody cared to do some unbiased studies on this (not the ones full of flaws reinforcing the author desired answer - whatever that it).
  - code_duck 8y ago
    You mean, is natural gas extraction and processing more harmful than agriculture and recycling?
    - PeterisP 8y ago
      It seems plausible that a cloth bag requires a comparable amount of petrochemicals to make than a plastic bag, agriculture is quite fuel intensive and uses a bunch of other nasty chemicals in large amounts, while a few grams of plastic require just a few grams of oil - for me it's hard to tell whether growing sufficient cotton for a single bag (which is quite a bunch of cotton plants) can be done with a few grams of fuel.
      - code_duck 8y ago
        Thankfully, this is studied by experts for their entire lives and we don’t have to learn the answers by speculating on Hacker News. I’ll note that what you’re comparing petroleum based manufacturing to is the most pointlessly intensively harmful and wasteful form of agriculture – growing conventional cotton.

bamboozled 8y ago

Checkout organic cotton and hemp. Much lower environmental footprint. You can get some really durable, long lasting, organic cotton and hemp blended clothing which is way more durable, breathable and comfortable than you might imagine. Patagonia (brand) is an easy place to buy organic cotton Tshirts and pants.

inawarminister 8y ago
Is it possible to buy a 100% hemp t-shirt? Also, how about linen shirts? I hear linen is much easier to grow compared to cotton?
fenwick67 8y ago
Does it really have a smaller footprint? I'd love to see numbers
- kingkawn 8y ago
  Not adding eternally polluting particles to the environment seems like it must have smaller footprint
  - tylerhou 8y ago
    Organic != pollutes less. For example, some organic farms use more than an order of magnitude more (~20x) organic pesticides than regular farms use regular pesticides (by weight). Many of these organic pesticides have the potential for serious health risks. One organic pesticide, Rotenone, which was banned in the US in 2005 but reapproved in 2010, causes "Parkinson's Disease-like symptoms in rats, and has the potential to kill many species, including humans." [0] Organic farming also often requires more resources (land, water, etc.). The ecological damage of that extra resource use (soil erosion, water diversion) could far surpass any pollutants non-organic farms spew. [0] I don't know anything about cotton specifically, though. [0] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogsscientificamericancomscience-sushi20110718mythbusting-101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogs... (see myths 1 and 3)

olkid 8y ago

I wonder why hemp fiber didn't get compared independently. From a quick internet search: it is one fiber used in Tencel blend. I think hemp scores better on land usage, but not necessarily in the other categories. Is that your take?

bradly 8y ago

You can put your microfiber clothes in a specialized bag when washing to help prevent the fibers from making their way into the water systems. Here is one example of a bag: https://www.patagonia.com/product/guppyfriend-washing-bag/O2191.html https://www.patagonia.com/product/guppyfriend-washing-bag/O2...

lawlessone 8y ago
The bag is also plastic..
- asteli 8y ago
  It's a nylon (polyamide) mesh. It's not going to spew microfibers in the same way that a polyester fleece would. For reference, I found you some micrographs of the materials we're talking about: poly fleece: https://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/microfiber-closeup-1400x788.jpg https://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/wp-content/uploads/201... nylon mesh: https://assets.fishersci.com/TFS-Assets/CCG/product-images/F587090~p.eps-650.jpg https://assets.fishersci.com/TFS-Assets/CCG/product-images/F...

bacon_waffle 8y ago

Wool is a great material to consider as well.

Tharkun 8y ago
Especially for socks during exercise. I find it helps keep my feet dry much more than cotton oe synthetics.
- cmrdporcupine 8y ago
  Last year I discovered the joy that is merino wool ski clothes. A friend had a pro-discount on Icebreaker and I stocked up before a ski trip. Excellent stuff. Here's a good/entertaining video that compares synthetic to merino for ski layers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh8BFytupwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh8BFytupwA His conclusion is that the synthetic was just as warm, but the merino wool did a better job of dissipating .. aromas... and stayed 'clean' longer. It's unfortunate that a lot of the 'wool' out there is still blended with synthetics for cost or supposed-technical reasons.
J-dawg 8y ago
I want to believe that materials like wool are the answer, but I fear they're not. Raising animals is carbon intensive, and all those sheep need somewhere to graze. If people switched to wool clothing on a big scale, it would probably lead to mass deforestation.
- schiffern 8y ago
  Sheep can graze in [re]forested pastures, ie silvopasture. This also sequesters carbon. http://stevegabrielfarmer.wixsite.com/silvopasturebook/single-post/2016/10/31/Six-Key-Principles-for-a-Successful-Silvopasture http://stevegabrielfarmer.wixsite.com/silvopasturebook/singl... https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/food/silvopasture https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/food/silvopasture
- bacon_waffle 8y ago
  I agree that it's not the answer, but I think one of the main lessons we should be learning is that monocultures are not the answer either. Here in New Zealand, much of our agriculture has shifted from sheep to dairy cows. There's a growing fear (I don't know how justified it really is) that synthetic milk, or even meat, will become a reality and wreck the traditional dairy industry. So, in our situation, maybe more wool use would be a good thing.

a_imho 8y ago

I did not examine the claims in detail, but a few sport teams announced they will use a kit made from recovered ocean plastics. Probably worth looking into it? [1]http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/the-toe-poke/65/post/3569720/juventus-unveil-new-third-kit-made-from-recovered-ocean-plastics http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/the-toe-poke/65/post/3569720...

smu 8y ago

I'm also looking for quality research on the total cost from cradle to grave. Most of what I've seen either only considers part of the cost or gives advice without explaining the reasoning... For example: it's amazing how much discussion there is around using paper cups vs a ceramic cup. Or when plastic actually might be the best packaging material (keeping food fresh for longer and being lighter to transport). Can anyone here point to non-biased, well researched articles on this topic? I would imagine academia is a good place, but I don't know where to start.

christophilus 8y ago

I suspect that bamboo clothing is the way to go. Bamboo grows anywhere and requires very little input and no pesticides. I don't know what the carbon footprint of turning it into thread is, though. I suspect still smaller than polyester. Plus, bamboo clothes are super soft.

corvallis 8y ago
Bamboo itself is "green" but the process to turn it into textiles is anything but. The marketing of bamboo textiles relies on your assumption, which is why it has so far been doing well. https://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-fashion/whatever-happened-bamboo-clothing.html https://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-fashion/whatever-happ... https://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/11/06/bamboo-has-an-environmental-dark-side/ https://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/11/06/bamboo-has-a... The second article requires a subscription to WSJ but you can find the same information elsewhere on the web. My philosophy for a long time now has been to take good care of existing clothing/textiles, purchase used as much as possible, and purchase fewer items overall - only what I absolutely need to live my life in a reasonable manner, without excess or mindless purchases.

another-cuppa 8y ago

The best thing to do is probably to buy high quality clothes and keep them for a long time. Don't buy t-shirts (especially printed t-shirts) that wear out quickly and get disposed of. Buy shirts and take care of them. Don't wash them often. Wash then minimally when they become dirty. They'll last you many years this way.