20 ms·

What to say when recruiters ask you to name the first number

• cgriswald 8y ago
  > Will my offer be rescinded if I try to negotiate? > So, if you’re talking to a super small company with one role that closes as soon as they find someone, yes, then they might rescind the offer. This happened to me. I was perfectly polite, asked for a very modest increase from their severely low offer (after listening to a speech about how they couldn't get any good help), and would have even accepted the position if their response was "non-negotiable". They not only rescinded the offer, but they were ridiculous jerks about it. > But, to be honest ... an early startup punishing a prospective employee for being entrepreneurial is a huge red flag to me. That's exactly how I took it.
  • wolco 8y ago
    In what way did they become a jerk after you asked for an increase?
  • sillysaurus3 8y ago
    The correct response is to laugh at them and move on. And mock them on HN. It's worth being aggressively negative toward such companies, because negotiating to your market value is step one in leading a good life. The fact that they would have you not do this means they don't care about the quality of your life, so you shouldn't care about their company.
    • cyberpunk0 8y ago
      If you think that's step one you are too far down idolizing ecomonics and marketing to ever live a good life. You will spend your life imprisoned within their confines.
  • fucking_tragedy 8y ago
    Care to share their name? It will save time from getting wasted.
  • dougmwne 8y ago
    This happened to my partner. He was upset and I was as shocked as the author. Another job at a small company. We came to the conclusion that it was an extreme jerk move on the part of the company owner and they did us an enormous favor by removing themselves from our lives. The experience taught me to always attempt to negotiate, if for nothing else than to weed out the insane employers who will no doubt throw you under the bus at the first convenient moment.
  • Jemaclus 8y ago
    This happened to me years ago when I was offered a position at EasyPost. I tried to counter politely and modestly, and the CEO (I can't remember his name) got mad at me, told me I should be grateful that I even got an offer, and then rescinded the offer. It was a pretty big turnoff, and I wound up being afraid of negotiating for another year or so. Nowadays, I realize that kind of response means the CEO is a dick and I'm glad I didn't take that job.
    • throwaway754377 8y ago
      Heh. I love EasyPost's product and documentation, but I had some odd account management interactions with them early on. I later learned via LinkedIn that the emails I assumed were from a customer service rep were actually from the CEO. Go figure. I don't work with them anymore due to a job change, but towards the end they were doing better on the account side of things, and I still recommend them. Great product.
    • ljm 8y ago
      I’m so curious about the state of mind it takes to acknowledge you need to hire expertise, while simultaneously seeing your own need as being a favour to someone else. It feels resentful, I can’t imagine a bigger red flag than someone who resents having to hire. They’re basically saying they would never even consider approaching you if they had a choice. You’ll never get a respectful deal out of that, never mind a healthy work culture.
  • coldtea 8y ago
    >They not only rescinded the offer, but they were ridiculous jerks about it. Well, if their offer was "severely low", they're like a beggar being a jerk at someone who think didn't give them enough money...
  • dunpeal 8y ago
    > This happened to me. I was perfectly polite, asked for a very modest increase from their severely low offer (after listening to a speech about how they couldn't get any good help), and would have even accepted the position if their response was "non-negotiable". If their offer was "severely low", then why would you accept it? Certainly, from their perspective, their offer wasn't low - you would have accepted it! It was enough to bring you on board. > They not only rescinded the offer, but they were ridiculous jerks about it. If what you say is true, and they responded unprofessionally to a polite attempt to negotiate - then you're better off not working there.
  • lostcolony 8y ago
    My wife had something like that happen to her. Twice. Without even an onsite (at both times she worked across the country) they gave her an offer. In one case she countered, in the other she waited to think it over (though it was still well within the deadline they had given her). In both cases they rescinded the offer. In both cases she feels she dodged a bullet.
    • mstade 8y ago
      Unless the job is something that literally anyone could do I’d be very hesitant to accept an offer without an on-site interview or two.
      • humanrebar 8y ago
        Just ask for a better signing bonus to offset any short term risk (i.e. if you need to quit because they're hiding something).
        • lostcolony 8y ago
          Most places stipulate you pay them back the signing bonus if you leave within a year.
  • ttty 8y ago
    > They not only rescinded the offer, but they were ridiculous jerks about it. You dodged a bad company. Not too bad.
  • kurtisc 8y ago
    I'd say that if someone can negotiate something significantly better, they're probably not dependent on any given offer anyway.
  • Bahamut 8y ago
    I have had this happen twice to me ever, one being a startup that went on to fail, and the other being Amazon. I now work at a different FAANG. Amazon balked at me asking for $250k minimum total compensation for a position in San Francisco and decided to ghost me when we were in the process of scheduling an onsite interview & do preliminary negotiation in parallel. Unfortunately for them, they lost a potential top engineer who probably will never accept an offer with them ever again as a result.
    • sodosopa 8y ago
      I had the same problem with Amazon and it was downright shocking but I'm glad it happened. Now I know to avoid Amazon recruiters.
• furbyhat 8y ago
  Wrong. Say a number first. Anchor your value. Make sure to do your research and decide for yourself ahead of time the minimum you will accept. You are a service provider and your employer is your customer. McDonald's does not say: "If you're looking for fries, then let me know your price first and we can negotiate it in line with competitive industry rates for fries". If you feel worried about getting the offer rescinded, then you already lost and have not generated enough options for yourself to act confidently. Example of options I had: 3 full time contract offers 1 full time employment (slave/yuck) offers Buying a small business Starting another startup Buying a multifamily real estate property (live for free, doing nothing) Use your imagination and effort to generate options for yourself.
• flatline 8y ago
  > as you get more senior, more of your comp comes from equity Maybe in SV? Or if you buy options or discounted shares in a publicly traded company you work for? But I don’t feel like this is the norm nowadays.
  • barbegal 8y ago
    So you're saying: as you get more senior, less of your comp comes from equity?
    • phkahler 8y ago
      Equity isn't a thing at most companies.
      • greglindahl 8y ago
        Most companies in the entire world, or most companies that we talk about here on HN?
        • GordonS 8y ago
          Most companies outside of the Bay area.
          • greglindahl 8y ago
            Most companies outside and inside the Bay Area are things like individual law practices and barber shops. I'm a bit surprised to find such companies a topic of conversation on HN.
    • pandler 8y ago
      I think they’re saying there is no correlation between seniority and equity.
  • djajshgsjja 8y ago
    True in my experience. I’ve had salary go up 10% and equity double when getting promoted. So equity goes from a small portion of total comp to the majority.
• mherdeg 8y ago
  OK, I know this doesn't contribute to the discussion and I apologize in advance. But based on this title I thought this would be a short blog post about recruiters using phone-screen questions to probe whether a candidate uses zero-indexed or one-indexed counting.
  • thedorkknight 8y ago
    "trick question! There is no 'first number'!"
  • asciimo 8y ago
    But maybe they're looking for the first number historically. It must have been One, right? Surely. But what was its name in Sumarian..?
  • jtbayly 8y ago
    Yes, I was profoundly disturbed at the thought of this being an elimination question.
• OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
  This is a con game.
• pmiller2 8y ago
  Couple of things I’m wondering about.... What constitutes an exploding offer? Is it a 3 day deadline? 1 week? 2 weeks? 3? Personally, anything less than 2 weeks seems rushed to be making a decision that could cost me $10K or more over the next year. I feel like 3 weeks should be enough to wrap up any open recruitment processes, and 6 weeks is downright absurd, but I don’t have a good sense of the issue overall. Also, if merely mentioning having an on-site can get me a $5k increase, why not just bluff?
  • dsr_ 8y ago
    Everybody has their own range. That said, when a company demands an answer by the end of the day or the end of the next day, or if you have mentioned you have another interview coming up and they set it before then, it's an exploding offer and you should reject it. It's entirely reasonable for a company that really needs your skills now because they don't have anyone else who can do that work to ask for an answer in a week. You should consider negotiating a little harder. For any company that already has several people working in the same position, or is expecting you to move any significant distance, you should expect them not to be in a huge hurry.
  • repsilat 8y ago
    What would a hiring manager say if you told them "I'm going to finish my job hunt, if yours is the best offer at the end I'll submit another application" ?
• joshgel 8y ago
  Can’t remember where I read it (and I’ve never tried it), but you could try this: name a ridiculously high number as a joke. Laugh about it a little. Then try to move on with them by saying something like “no seriously, what are you offering?” You’ve fulfilled their demand for a first number and pivoted back to them for a response. Anyone else think this might work?
  • tarr11 8y ago
    As a hiring manager, this kind of sarcasm would seem immature to me, especially when we barely know each other.
    • coldtea 8y ago
      As a candidate, asking the candidate for their price to prey on their information imbalance would seem jerky to me. Just be open and tell them what you think you can pay them, and whether that's negotiable based on different conditions.
    • eeZah7Ux 8y ago
      As a candidate I would walk out when asked that question.
  • coldtea 8y ago
    >Anyone else think this might work? If it doesn't work, you can always find a different company. There's no need playing games with a company that doesn't want to tell you what they can pay you.
  • lostcolony 8y ago
    I can give you one better; giving an offer in all serious, that is a little aggressive but not out of line (at the top of the pay band on Linkedin for the area, but the job is in the higher price part of the city), and having -the hiring manager- laugh and say "No, seriously, I was thinking more" and quoting you -half- of that.
• hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
  I don't like how this starts out. Ratcheting up the pressure on how critical it is for you to negotiate from the get-go in your career, as if it's going to somehow compound down the road. That's only true if you're planning to stay at the same company forever. You can ask for whatever you want in your next interview. It's nobody's business how much you made in the past. I'm not saying that you shouldn't negotiate, I'm saying it's okay if you didn't.
  • freedomben 8y ago
    > You can ask for whatever you want in your next interview. It's nobody's business how much you made in the past. That's only true in California. For the rest of us, it's perfectly normal to be asked how much we currently make. It may not happen at the beginning, but after your first counter-offer, they will almost always ask where you're at now, and then say something like, "that's quite an increase from where you're currently at. How do you justify that?"
    • abraham_lincoln 8y ago
      I would say that even if you paid me $500k a year, if all other developers are being hired for $800k, you are paying under market.
      • freedomben 8y ago
        I totally agree, but when I was a junior dev in SLC in the mid-2000s, it was unheard of to find a place that didn't base your offered salary directly on your current salary. They didn't care if you were underpaid and more valuable than what you were making. It was all about that big corporate HR and their rules for determining appropriate pay. It's how "engineers" that hadn't coded in 20 years and offered no value, but had been with the company for 30 years, could pull down 150k a year while I was making 60k. It's all about seniority. Of course you could bypass that by working at a startup, but as a junior dev those jobs were very hard to get. They always wanted a senior engineer. Also, they could make the problem worse since salaries were lower due to stock incentives (which corporate HR rarely counted since their value was ambiguous).
• Denzel 8y ago
  I like a lot of the information in this article. But after going through a gauntlet of 20+ interview pipelines with 3 offers coming in at the same time and an additional 2 on the way, here's my advice... don't give the first number, give the first range. Say the market is showing you between $X-$Y. Consider it a form of late-binding. You want to be dynamic. So make that range both realistic and wide. This is beneficial to you for a number of reasons. It will eliminate companies that can't get there. Win. It doesn't commit you to a specific number. Win. You don't have to ruin the rapport with an unnecessary game of chicken over who says the first number. Win. And most importantly, you have a wide open range to negotiate in when your offers come in. You can say... hey, I was upfront about my range, and I really feel like I'm <here> in that range for <these reasons>. Using this strategy has worked beautifully for me.
  • infinite8s 8y ago
    The issue with a range is that you are by definition anchoring the minimum that you will accept, so a savvy employer won't go much higher than that (without mitigating circumstances like competing offers).
    • Denzel 8y ago
      You're exactly right, a range anchors the minimum. However, there's far more bargaining chips on the table than just competing offers. As a savvy negotiator you have to understand that every little piece of the offer is a bargaining chip that causes movement within your range: bonuses, equity, PTO, benefits, gym reimbursement, commute time, cost of living, hours, etc. Everything is fungible. The salary range is just one lever in an entire control room. No one has to agree or use my negotiating method. It's simply something that worked really well for me and allowed me to maintain more productive discussions as I negotiated. Whereas a game of chicken leaves a sour taste in both your mouth and theirs.
  • gear54rus 8y ago
    > You can say... hey, I was upfront about my range, and I really feel like I'm <here> in that range for <these reasons>. So why give range if it's actually a number after all? :)
• scarface74 8y ago
  I cringed reading this article. It is so much in the bubble of Silicon Valley startup culture it’s ridiculous. Most developers don’t work for startups or one of the FAANG companies. Most will be working standard corporate jobs where you get a salary, paid time off, maybe a bonus, and somewhat likely a 401K match. That’s it. No great equity stake, nothing. Depending on your market, it’s quite easy with the right networking, research, and talking to enough recruiters, you can find what your market range is. Statistically, you’re probably not a special snowflake. Everyone thinks that they are and deserve way above what the local market is paying. You probably don’t. The only time that I’ve been “underpaid” was when I either stayed at a company too long, or purposely made less than I could because I was learning a new technology or otherwise building my resume. It’s not that difficult. Work with local recruiters, tell them what your minimum well researched jump number is and make sure you are keeping your skillset in line with the market. If I’m off by a few thousand, so be it. I’ll become aware of it in two or three years when I’m looking again. But from looking at salary surveys, talking to friends in the industry, and talking to recruiters, I don’t think I am. Yes I could make more if I wanted to be a manager (no desire) or a consultant (don’t want the travel or the stress right now).
  • geofft 8y ago
    > Statistically, you’re probably not a special snowflake. Everyone thinks that they are and deserve way above what the local market is paying. You probably don’t. It's certainly possible that everyone deserves (or more precisely, is able to negotiate) a salary much higher than they have, but social pressures and norms and the fact that potential employees have much more to lose than potential employers over a single negotiation failing means that market value is much lower than it should be. The efficient market hypothesis, if it is even true, is only true in liquid markets with free flow of information. Hiring is neither.
    • scarface74 8y ago
      The efficient market hypothesis, if it is even true, is only true in liquid markets with free flow of information. Hiring is neither. My local market, has been very liquid for the past 20 years, if you have the right skillset. I’ve been able to find a job within two or three weeks each time that I was looking usually with two or three offers. It’s not a free flow of information but it is out there. I talk to recruiters and former coworkers all of the time to compare salaries. From the market perspective, it’s because I haven’t been asking more than the median based on my skillset during the last 10 years. From my perspective, I’ve been prioritizing learning skills and building a resume over maximizing wages. I can’t both ask a company to hire me knowing that I’m barely qualified and ask for the highest part of the range. The second issue is a collective action issue. There are plenty of qualified “full stack developers” who can make yet another B2B Software as a service CRUD app. You can’t negotiate too far over your local market rates or there are other developers who are “good enough” who will take the job. I’m able to slowly get on the right side of the bell curve by being a “enterprise cloud architect” (yeah I die a little bit everytime I say that). My next step is a “consultant”.
• hamandcheese 8y ago
  Between me and two friends who are all early in our careers, we’ve had very difficult times getting companies to move on salary. This was in SF, all within in the last 6 months. On the other hand, all three companies increased our starting bonus substantially with hardly a fight. For two of us the reasons were more or less “you’re already at the top of your salary band” and for the last the reason was they pay all new grads the same (only one of us is a new grad).
  • lostcolony 8y ago
    Amusingly, that just encourages you to change jobs more often. Amortize that starting bonus over two years, basically.
    • shady-lady 8y ago
      Are starting bonuses a solely US/SF construct? Have never seen them in Europe.
      • lostcolony 8y ago
        I've gotten them elsewhere in the US, but can't speak to Europe. Usually they have strings attached; basically "work for us for a year or pay us this back". It's a good way to make the offer more attractive without it affecting the following year's budget, while also achieving a bit of risk management. Relocation usually stipulates the same thing; I know with a recent move and job change of my own, between signing bonus and relo costs, I probably would be looking at $50k if I walked away within a year, so yeah, they own me for that time. However I knew what I was getting into and so far am very happy there, so mutually beneficial.
      • ObsoleteNerd 8y ago
        I got one in Australia 10 years ago, but it was for a US company (one of the big Telcos that has a presence here). It's the only time I've ever heard of them here (for IT) though. I definitely get the impression it's more a US thing from how often I hear about them here and on reddit.
• bobbytherobot 8y ago
  I've gotten bolder and last time job hunting my answer the first time the recruiter asked for my range: "if you offer $300k right now, I'll take the job today."
  • infinite8s 8y ago
    What did the recruiter say?
  • abraham_lincoln 8y ago
    So, how did that work out? Does the recruiter give you a number or range?
  • yanslookup 8y ago
    The crazy thing is, in this current market, you might actually be low balling yourself at 300k...
• klenwell 8y ago
  So, basically, telling them something will only hurt you and never help you. So don’t do it. Now, here’s exactly what to say when asked to name the first number: At this point, I don’t feel equipped to throw out a number because I’d like to find out more about the opportunity first – right now, I simply don’t have the data to be able to say something concrete. If you end up making me an offer, I would be more than happy to iterate on it if needed and figure out something that works. I also promise not to accept other offers until I have a chance to discuss them with you. And they answer, "Sorry, I cannot move forward without a number." Stalemate. I've been there and maybe I just don't enjoy awkward silences enough but my strategy is to have two numbers ready: 1. My Public Number: the inflated number I give out when pressed. It's grounded in reality but vigorously optimistic. I'll often offer this up front just to anchor the discussion. I make sure it's a number I will be more than happy with, even it turns out that maybe it wasn't as much as they were prepared to offer. If the other side finds it out of the question, I've saved myself time and stress. 2. My Walkaway Number: in the event the offer is lower, which it often is, the number below which the offer gets rejected. I don't share this publicly. These vary based on other factors of the offer. But I have them ready. And I stick to the second number.
  • mstade 8y ago
    > These vary based on other factors of the offer. But I have them ready. And I stick to the second number. This. Finding a walkaway number is the most valuable lesson I’ve learned over the years. It must be a number you’re comfortable with, such that if that’s what you’re getting you won’t feel cheated or otherwise unhappy about it. Anything below it means you walk away – end of discussion. I guess the difficult thing is making it a non negotiable and hard limit, but that’s key to making it work. This has taken away all anxiety of negotiating for me.
  • cecilpl2 8y ago
    I did the same last month. I was pressed for a number in the in-person interview. I dropped my inflated public number (which was $30k more than my walkaway), and lo and behold, they offered it to me! It turns out I was way undervalued :)
• Iwan-Zotow 8y ago
  aleph null
• geoka9 8y ago
  How about "From my research and experience, I believe that I can get $X" (name your most optimistic realistic expectation), "but I'm willing to negotiate if that number is a problem."
  • maxxxxx 8y ago
    Don't follow up immediately with the phrase "I am willing to negotiate". It signals lack of confidence.
    • ttty 8y ago
      + most likely means they can go down a few k
    • geoka9 8y ago
      Then how about "... is a problem for you guys?" Their response may be "oh, not at all" (being the highly successful company they are selling you on).
      • s73v3r_ 8y ago
        Don't. If you're going to name a number, name the number. Don't hem and haw about it.
      • maxxxxx 8y ago
        Name your number and shut up. They will tell you if it's a problem.
  • yanslookup 8y ago
    The reason you don't do this is there is a real possibility they are willing to pay $X+25%, so now you've just anchored the discussion around $X and you'll likely not see an offer for more unless you've really low balled yourself and the employer has set salary bands. Also definitely do not follow up with the '...but i'm willing to negotiate' bit.
• Merkur 8y ago
  While Waiting until the article has loaded, i tried to figure out if Zero or One came first ... doh
• ajkjk 8y ago
  I too spent a lot of my life being wrong about what the word 'diatribe' means. This is not nearly angry enough to count as a diatribe.
• Merkur 8y ago
  While waiting for the article to load i was thinking - was zero or one the first number? Or was it two, because you need at least two to start counting? Then i realized that i was offtopic in a kinda funny way
  • TomVDB 8y ago
    You were not alone. My reaction was “I’m applying for. CS job, not for a job in philosophical mathematics.”
  • AnthonBerg 8y ago
    1, it has to be 1 right? I was exactly there too.
  • jtbayly 8y ago
    Same here.
  • excalibur 8y ago
    Etymologically speaking, I feel like the first number was most likely "two". The idea of quantifying things wouldn't be relevant unless you had multiple items to bother counting.
  • rsynnott 8y ago
    Yes, I was thinking it had to be 2, because 0 is a bit of an abstract concept, and you don’t really need 1 as a concept before you already have numbers. I assumed we were talking annoying abstract thinking interview questions. I was quite confused to find all the comments going on about salary.
• xivzgrev 8y ago
  I recently went thru job search, and i found something that worked really well when companies ask for your number. Basically say that when you have been talking with recruiters you have heard a wide range for your experience and they are better qualified to tell you what your experience is worth TO THEM. Then ask what is their range for the position? And it's 100% true. Salary is completely driven by how much an employer values your experience so they are more qualified. Also, I had more than a 40k delta between the lowest numbers I heard vs highest. So why would I throw out a number that has a high risk of being over / under what they value the position at? And make sure you ask up front. I had one company that said they had "great" salaries, and it turned out to be a really low number. Thankfully I asked and did not waste time with them. Most times it is completely fine. Sometimes recruiters push back - just acknowledge and repeat yourself. If they absolutely will not move forward without a number then I would walk away. Also sometimes recruiters will demur to share until later in the process. Up to you if you want to chance it. But definitely hold them accountable. Ask when in the process they can share, and hold them to that. The one company that i interviewed with that was a stickler about all this is Facebook. They would not share any range no matter how much I asked. That said fortunately it's so big you can get a decent idea from Glassdoor.
• whack 8y ago
  I never understood this line everyone parrots about not giving the first number. That tactic works best only in situations where both parties have no clue what ballpark the other party has in mind. Which is definitely not the situation when you're one of 1000 similarly qualified engineers applying for a well-established job role. In situations where both parties have a reasonable idea of what ballpark they are playing in, it's far better to toss the first number, because you get to set the baseline for the rest of the negotiation. Unless you're a very experienced negotiator, that initial baseline plays an outsized role in where the negotiation winds up finishing. For example, suppose both you and your counterparty know that the negotiation is going to be within the 100-150k ballpark. You tossing out 145k as the first number, will play much more to your benefit than allowing the recruiter to toss out 105k as the first number. Obviously this tactic only works if you're well aware of what ballpark you're playing in. But that should be achievable by simply talking to your classmates, or perusing the many salary aggregators and discussion forums online. The only caveat I would add is to wait until all interviews are over and you've received confirmation that the company wants to make you an offer. At that point, no one is going to reject you for being too optimistic with your initial offer. Worst case scenario: you're going to get a much lower counteroffer. But at least you get the benefits associated with setting the baseline. https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/what-is-anchoring-in-negotiation/ https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/w...
  • dunpeal 8y ago
    It's theoretically optimal not to give the first number. The employer doesn't know how much you're making now, and can't legally ask (not in CA and NY anyway). They have a theoretical top comp they're willing to offer for the position. Once you give them your number, their top offer becomes min(your_goal, their_top), which cannot be higher than their_top. In simple terms, if you know your market value, and you tell them that number, you will never know of or benefit from their willingness to pay above that (often for good reason). > For example, suppose both you and your counterparty know that the negotiation is going to be within the 100-150k ballpark. You tossing out 145k as the first number, will play much more to your benefit than allowing the recruiter to toss out 105k as the first number. That would be the recruiter messing up. His initial goal is to get you in the door, unless your expected pay ranges do not overlap. In this case, they do, so saying a low number just means he's encouraging a potential fit to walk away. A recruiter in this situation will typically state a range, and definitely won't just quote a number near the bottom of the range.
• bb88 8y ago
  With recruiters there's simply one rule to go by: Either you're feeling the pain, or they are. If there's a trick in this, it's to make the recruiter feel just enough pain that they hate to say no, because they lose their commission. So when you're asked salary first, go ahead and answer it and highball it. Either one of three things will happen: 1. They will tell you it's fine (and it might be), in which case, you didn't ask high enough. 2. They will say you're way too high and hang up. 3. They will reveal what their highest salary is for the position (or something close to that). Number 3 is what you're looking for. Because then you can negotiate off your high ball answer and look like you're being reasonable, if they refuse to come up, then it's time to hang up the phone.
• DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
  The best way I've found to avoid this problem is to have multiple offers on the table at the same time. And to be sure the employers are aware they have competition. It seems to create the same dynamics as a blind-bid procurement process, which works in your favor.
• komali2 8y ago
  On reverse car salesman - use this on the company you know for sure you want. Likely the company you know for sure you want will remain that company even within a 10k range price difference (speaking to software engineers here). That being said, you can start throwing all sorts of weird shit on the table, if you've already negotiated your salary up. PTO is usually the first thing that comes to mind, but I've also seen "guaranteed right to wear flip flops in the office, forever, no matter what office dress code becomes" put in a very picky qa engineer's contract (which is funny because he showed up to his onsite in a suit and tie... And I haven't seen him in anything but flip flops since). There's a hardware laboratory here so I got "access to laboratory" put in my contract, and since then I've learned to solder by just hanging around in there. Remote work stuff comes to mind, maybe some sort of time-bound access to powerful servers, just see what you can think of. Reason being, if the company has to give just one more thing to nab you, they'll feel like they really worked hard to secure the perfect candidate, there'll be no doubt in their mind, the recruiter/decision maker will always tell the story about how you were looking at other offers "but we finally secured her by putting the Foosball table right into her contract." And on the other side of it, you get that warm fuzzy feeling that you negotiated all there was to negotiate.
  • oldManRiver 8y ago
    I negotiated flex time at my current job, as I have for every job since 1999. After 6 weeks they told me I couldn't have flex time anymore but wouldn't give me the pay cut I took to get it. So now I leave early every day at different times and "work" from home once a week. I haven't done any real work for them in over a year and a half because of the flex time fiasco. I keep waiting for them to fire me but I'm friends with my boss so he's protecting my job, which is hilarious, but that's how shitty this company is.
    • throw082 8y ago
      Do you really feel like having the authority to call the company's behaviour shitty when you deal with their behaviour in the way that you do?
  • chiph 8y ago
• throwaway929394 8y ago
  Using a throwaway, because of my position. I recently withdrew an offer to a VP candidate because he negotiated too much (without being a jerk). He probably took advice from an article like this, and he wanted a) higher pay b) more vacation time c) special dispensation for items involving pay and time whose effect is even more pay. He has been pursuing me to accept my original offer for the past 2 months and I have been lukewarm because I got turned off. Summary: all successful negotiation comes down to leverage and it all comes to who has the leverage in a given situation. If you don't have the leverage, you may want to think about how much you negotiate. I have been in situations when I had no leverage at all, like my first job - where I had only one job offer, due to a) irrelevant educational credentials b) tough economic times - and thankfully, I had not read articles like this and that job led me to life outcomes that today I am quite successful and wealthy. One of my classmates negotiated hard for that same job, and while he got more money, he left a bad taste in people and eventually got fired (I won't say he got fired because he negotiated hard in the beginning but he started out with a negative vibe, and I heard that from managers, and it went downhill from there). In fact, later on, when I became successful, he approached me for a job, and again negotiated hard with me. I passed him on. So don't just blindly follow advice like this article. In fact, don't just blindly follow any advice, including mine. Negotiate if your situation permits, and know when your situation doesn't permit.
  • rstephenson2 8y ago
    Can you explain what turned you off about his negotiation, if he wasn't being a jerk? Just the fact that someone would have the audacity to do it, when you didn't feel he had the necessary leverage to pull it off? Every company you'll ever interview at will negotiate, and most will do so whether or not they have leverage. They usually do this via a recruiter or in-house HR, to try to disassociate any negative vibes that the candidate may feel towards their potential new boss due to hardball tactics in the negotiation process. Your stance seems designed to deter any candidate from negotiating at all, and you can probably do it because there are enough people out there that are hesitant to negotiate. Which is exactly what this article is trying to fix.
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• spitfire 8y ago
  The response to the exploding offer is incorrect. The correct response is "No thank you." For extra style points tack on "But it was great talking with you, I'll be sure to tell my colleagues about you."
• phamilton 8y ago
  These days I usually start the conversation with a recruiter saying I'm looking for total compensation above $300k. Some don't respond, which is fine because it saves us both time. Others will shoot back with something about equity. Then we can talk about cash / equity split and there's plenty of room for negotiation there. I've never felt like my $300k number limits my ability to negotiate (beyond putting a halt to some discussions). Where did I get $300k from? My peers at FAANG, my friends in recruiting, recruiters who state salary bands upfront. Basically, I've done my market research.
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• privateSFacct 8y ago
  On the hiring side here. Who hires / works like this? "I'll be happy to iterate on what I need when I get an offer"!! I'd move along politely at this point. Reality is, our best hires have approached us even when no job posted - but know what we do. They don't seem to care about salary - and I'm eager to give big raises fast to keep them - 15-20%+ at 6 mo, 15-20% at 12 months + bonus. The market is tight at this point and managers want to keep staff. Thankfully not doing tech hires, if this article is the way these guys work - I'm grateful not to have to hire in that space. My life is more boring. screening resumes, only 40% of which are minimally qualified. Quick phone screens after two of us go through the stack (we use an online tool to manage this). What are salary expectation is a question in that first call. I'm happy to share ranges with folks as well. Saves us all time to chat this out early - and I find I enjoy working with people who can talk about money in a rational manner.
  • sametmax 8y ago
    How can you talk about salary if you don't know the job ? I certainly won't negociate the same money for a start up, a big co, a remote work, a borring one, one with hard challenges, one with long hours, one with benefits, location, travelling, fancy clients, bonuses, shared values, etc. After a first call, I won't know remotly what I need to know what to negociate for, and giving any price is most probably setting wrong expectations that will be very hard to come back from later. It seems lose-lose to me. Besides, i have several offers at the same time. I put my recruiters in competition.
• andrewstuart 8y ago
  Not saying up front what you are looking for is completely wrong and really bad advice. I've negotiated thousands of salary deals and it never works like that. Consider this simple scenario - employer is looking for a mid level developer, wanting to pay around $80K. You, however, know that you would never accept a role for less than what you got paid in your last job, which is $110K. So how is this going to play out? 3 interviews, everyone invests their time and effort and codes coding tests and assessments and at the end of it they say "we've got $80K in mind for you", and you are outraged. The correct advice when asked your salary target is to know the range you are after. It should be neither too high, nor too low. Ask yourself the question - "what is the salary I would feel happy with to stay in this job for the long term?" - that number is the bottom of the range you present. You can add $5K to $10K to that range to give yourself some negotiating upside. So your answer in the above example might be "I'd like $110K to $120K depending on the responsibilities of the role". That's the right way to do it. It's ridiculous to go into a recruiting process hoping to negotiate at the final stage - that would waste everyone's time.
  • imh 8y ago
    > You can add $5K to $10K to that range to give yourself some negotiating upside. This probably makes more sense as a percentage. If you're making 80, adding 5-10k for negotiating makes sense. It you're making 120, adding 10-20k probably makes more sense. I always go with the top range of what I think is reasonable and add 10-20% or so. Basically the very upper limit of reasonable. Yeah it's silly, but everyone's in on it and since I started doing that, I've been pleasantly surprised quite a lot.
• iamleppert 8y ago
  For startups or any companies who offer illiquid equity, the following is a good tactic I’ve been using that never fails. Simply tell them (at the offer stage): “Make me two offers, one with a higher cash compensation and the other with higher equity.” Then, always take the position with higher cash to base your next negotiations. If it’s good enough, you might even take it outright. This is a trick that exploits the fact that most startup founders and recruiters have an over-inflated “best case” view of how much their equity is actually worth, so it works in your favor when they use it as a benchmark against real money today. I’ve found they also fail to account how much it would be worth for you vs. them. Considering the risk is high you won’t make anything from those options even if you exercise them (& stay long enough), the cash position is nearly always better. If the company becomes some run-away success there will be opportunity to get more equity but getting a cash raise in 6 months is infinitely harder I’ve found. Promotions at startups often times have an additional equity award and by that time you’ll have more information as to the chance of success or not. Generally, based on my experience, it’s a good way to immediately get an extra $10-20k, with little emotional effort and without the other side feeling as if they were strong-armed, or that they had to give up something, since they offered you the choice. (This is important because you don’t want to start your position there viewed as an “expensive new toy”). They still feel powerful and in control. They may even be happy you took the cash option and let them “keep more” of their precious company. When I started doing this I originally feared they would think I don’t have faith in them, but I’ve never had someone feel insulted I took the cash option. As an engineer I actually enjoy the negotiation process, it’s the best type of problem: pure tactics.
  • 1000units 8y ago
    I've always found it amusing how ham-fisted employers' tactics are when dealing with talented engineers. They know you're not stupid, but they try to swindle you anyway, knowing the only way you fall for it is if you have serious self-esteem or assertiveness issues. That's why I tell every honest engineer I know how much I make and how the game works. It's disgusting.
    • _m96l 8y ago
      Engineers are typically intelligent, but most of them know very little about negotiation, especially straight out of college - which is a huge percentage of new hires every year. You may have graduated from MIT and done hard psets for 4 years, but the most you ever negotiated was that $50 desk you bought on Craigslist. > the only way you fall for it is if you have serious self-esteem or assertiveness issues. Which young engineers, being often introverted and nerdy, do tend to have... Recruiters are basically sales people, so they're on the other end of the extroverted scale: extremely assertive, used to interact with, read, and manipulate others. Is it any wonder they try to push engineers around?
• mnm1 8y ago
  Maybe this advice is good when applying to the big four, but otherwise it's a wonderful way to waste one's own time. From having conducted hundreds of in person interviews and probably thousands of calls with recruiters or phone interviews, I find that figuring out the band a company is willing to pay is fairly easy. Also, it's not a wide band even at senior levels. In fact, the acceptable range is usually quite narrow. I save a ton of time by not interviewing with companies who can't even pay the low end of the range I'm looking for. This is the situation most of the time, in fact. I've done interviews and take home assignments only to find out the company's range and my range don't overlap at all. That's just stupid and a waste of time. These days, I discuss salary first if it comes up and definitely before dedicating any major amount of time to an interview. Is there a chance that I'm leaving money on the table? Maybe a very tiny one. Usually, I'm just saving myself hours or days of interviewing for a job I will never take. For almost all jobs, I find this advice to be wrong and a waste of time.
• justonepost 8y ago
  I have no problem giving a number, but I know how much I'm worth. I really don't want to get paid more or less.
• DonHopkins 8y ago
  If you tell them how much you previously made, and it was a lot, is there a good way to prove you're telling the truth? Or should you not want to work for them if they don't believe you (and they shouldn't hire you if they don't believe you)? Is it acceptable to offer a copy of previous job offers or contracts to document salary history, sign-up bonuses and relocation plans, or would that be weird?
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• commenter1 8y ago
  Give a number, if they don't accept it, leave. If I want to play games, I go to an arcade.
• watertom 8y ago
  Unless it's a really small company the job has been graded, which means that they already know the title and level of the job and the salary range that has been approved. When they ask for the number I always respond by saying, "Please tell me the approved salary range for the position." If they won't tell you the salary range it's probably not a company worth working at.
  • kochikame 8y ago
    These rules can always be broken, however. Money can always be found with the right person inside saying "I want this person on the team ASAP"
• sosilkj 8y ago
  any good links to understand how to negotiate stock/RSUs (or how all that stuff even works)?
• snow_mac 8y ago
  I always ask for $5 or $10 more an hour then I'm currently making. That works for me to get more money each time.
• PopeDotNinja 8y ago
  One can also do this... When asked what your compensation requirements are, simply say you need to research what realistic salaries are in the current market before answering the question. If pressed for an answer, just say doing that research is important to you, and that if they really need an answer before continuing, you'll come find them when you have an answer. This allows you to plainly state your preference, respect their process, and it gives you time to come up with a number you'd actually want. The recruiter may just back off and let you proceed without asking for a number until much later in the process.
• austincheney 8y ago
  If it is a contract to hire position let the recruiter pick the number for you, because their commission is a percentage of that number and they know the client's (hiring company) target range and exceptional range. You will want to max out that contractor rate, because that rate is a factor in your conversation negotiation.
• dmourati 8y ago
  This is good advice about naming the first number if and only if you don't have good market data. If you have good market data, and you should with sites like levels.fyi, you should use that data to your advantage. Why? Well, first off it signals value. If you name a number that is a bit of a stretch for the prospective company, but still within a realm of reason, they start to wonder if they have undervalued you. Second, it demonstrates that you have done your homework. Third, it shows that you have negotiation skills and willingness to use them. This technique is referred to as anchoring. https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/what-is-anchoring-in-negotiation/ https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/w... Use anchoring to take control of the negotiation and to maximize your compensation.
• dboreham 8y ago
  “My wife is a compensation consultant specializing in tech jobs, so I’ll ask her to run an analysis on your open position”.
• farazbabar 8y ago
  As someone trying to build a brand new team, I am happy to pay people whatever they think they are worth. I wonder if there is a way to do this without offending the engineers I am trying to attract - I mean, if they are not to answer the question how much do you want, how do I pay them what they want? I am not at all worried about over-paying because any engineers that don't meet the performance bar I set won't last long enough for it to matter.
  • mmt 8y ago
    You say you're not worried about over-paying, but you mention the opinion/want of the engineer twice. If you're truly not worried, just figure out the most generous compensation on the market (e.g. consultant rates, what FAANG pays) for a comparable engineer and exceed it. Alternatively, or additionally, be generous with equity and/or profit-sharing. Even with a base salary that's only slightly above market, an engineer is unlikely to feel cheated/exploited if they're also being compensated with a significant portion of the value the company realizes from them. (In the typical company, where all employees' combined share is 10%, it's not significant).
• tfolbrecht 8y ago
  Something not often considered is playing on an awkward silence between the tit-for-tat. If you let things stick in the air a bit longer sometimes signaling from the other party can help you find that sweet spot.
• ggm 8y ago
  I'm probably too late, and I am probably too far outside the core interest group (the US developer market) for this one. but anyway: What would you say, if I hypothesized a fairly narrow but structural pay grade for years of experience, qualifications and perhaps a more variable quality for domain specific knowledge or above-competent? Seriously: if the entire industry moved to a different model, would the fact some of us were significantly worse off, but most of us on average were better off be acceptable? Thats basically what Unions, and Unionized negotiating achieves. If (like me) you worked in the tertiary education sector as a researcher, this is how it worked. Could any of you people go there? If not, why not?
  • imh 8y ago
    I would be skeptical, but open, so long as it is frequently renegotiated. Dev salaries have gone up incredibly over time, and new technologies come in all the time. After new technologies/niches come in, their value changes over time. A specialist in neural networks pre-2010 vs post-2012 would have quite different market rates. It wouldn't be enough that most of us on average are better off today. It would be important that most of us on average will be better off today and in 15 years, which seems to require frequent renegotiation in a fast moving sector like this.
• hippich 8y ago
  Another aspect which is often missed during thinking about own number, or discussing the offer with a recruiter is that even if one's skillset is worth X, it is not always the case company will need the whole set of skills applicant posses. Hence their market price for that position might be lower than what an applicant is looking for, yet still fair. This kind of mismatch of honest numbers is the case where things will just not work out. One thing is being underpaid, the totally different thing is doing something too simple for one. When I was searching for a job, I used to ask straight their salary range, since I always assumed business is pricing job fairly and that number would tell me what kind of skillset their business need. (And no, one's extra skills are not gonna give an edge to business, and usually these extras worth nothing to the business, hence lower offer)
• itronitron 8y ago
  I realized recently that companies that have asked me upfront what my salary expectations are have never made me an offer of employment (regardless of whether and how I answered that question.) As a result I don't give them a number and I also expect that to be our last conversation.
• ordinaryperson 8y ago
  This would be helpful if it were 1994 and there was lots of what economists call asymmetric information, but now you can price-check a company's offer in seconds. Besides, companies can also easily see what the going rate is and normalize their budgets accordingly. I recently went through the job search process and almost all companies offered similar rates. If you're north of 100K (and I assume most experienced software engineers are) realistically 10-20K more will not make a significant impact on your quality of life. We're talking an extra $500-1K a month. Nice, but doesn't exactly catapult you into the 1%. As long as your salary is in a competitive range it's more important to focus on finding the right fit of industry, company, people and projects. Wouldn't over-weight salary negotiations, especially in a day where both employers and job-seekers can quickly ascertain market rates.
• xiaosun 8y ago
  If you are in California, this is a completely moot point. The new comp law (AB168) requires employers to disclose the pay range for a job upon request. So if a recruiter asks you to name the first number, you should ask them for the pay range and they are legally obligated to disclose the range. Source: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB168 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...