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Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these day
by est 8y ago
Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China
Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these days. All interesting new content are either from Weibo or Wechat (or other closed garden)
Fact 3: all reports about "Google returning to China" are based solely on the "Intercept report"[1] as source. I suggest everyone take a look at it. I think there's a huge misunderstanding. Maybe it's in-app search for some domain business only instead of web-wide search?
Fact 4: Firewalls in China has a hierarchical layers of blocking. Some times the plain text http is effected, sometimes it's the DNS, sometimes it's the tis certs, most of the time it's heuristics (e.g. SVM model to classify traffic) and random. There are also collateral blocking, like a blocking a CDN. You can't guess exactly which one piece of information was the culprit. And it all varies in places and time. All "blocking" are based on empirical assumptions, no one have ever done a large scale, down to the packet level study of it. Administrative notices of taking down articles are blurry as hell. Sometimes there's even corporates faking govn't orders to remove some review as PR move. So it's very hard to suggest if an "article" should be blocked or not. The chinese govn't utilize this method to force everyone to "self-censorship" and some business are making a profit of it.
[1]: https://theintercept.com/2018/08/01/google-china-search-engine-censorship/ https://theintercept.com/2018/08/01/google-china-search-engi...
- wavefunction 8y ago>Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China That's "google search" if just by a different name >f2 see part 1 >f3 Google returning is contradicted by p1+p2 >f4 what does that have to do with p1-3 though
- est 8y ago> what does that have to do with p1-3 though FTA > Documents seen by The Intercept, marked “Google confidential,” say that Google’s Chinese search app will automatically identify and filter websites blocked by the Great Firewall. This part does not make much sense. It's simply impractical.
- guywhocodes 8y agoMaps "works", there are essentially zero updates for many years. Walk down a street in Shanghai where business pop up/ shutdown/ move more often than annually on average, hardly a single name ever correlates with google maps.
- oh-kumudo 8y agoWorth notice is that, foreign companies are forbidden to collect its own map data in China, let alone something like Street View.
- guywhocodes 8y agoIndividuals too, there seem to have been by Chinese standards extremely high fines issued related to OSM.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago> Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China YouTube and Gmail also don't work in China, which are significant. They technically didn't leave China, however, because they never entered it. > Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these days. All interesting new content are either from Weibo or Wechat (or other closed garden) I think you mean to qualify that with in China? > Fact 4: Firewalls in China has a hierarchical layers of blocking Most of the western-world web moved to HTTPS specifically because China was inspecting plain text packets. It was interesting to watch the change over happen from 2008-2011.
- est 8y ago> I think you mean to qualify that with in China? I mean even if the "android app" came out how does it gain traction? Does anybody actually use an "app" to search on mobile phones?
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoIf it was my only alternative to baidu, maybe.
- est 8y agoA search engine as an app? You type some phrases into an app, the app displays results in a webview, you click the SERP, then what? a browser opens? Why don't you use the browser on your phone directly for searching? That's why I think Google is working on some ROM feature, not an app. Or maybe there are some misudnerstanding from the "source" If it's an app it's doomed to fail.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- helloindia 8y agoAre you aware of the fact that Google has search apps on both iOS Appstore and Android Playstore? If you want to know who is using such apps, look up the reviews on them.
- knuththetruth 8y agoFact 5: The Chinese Government, which Google will collaborate with to operate in China, has upwards of two million Uighurs and Muslim minorities in what the UN calls a “massive internment camp.” Uighurs are also reported to be being detained upon re-entry into the country, with some then “dying in custody” https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-it-has-credible-reports-that-china-holds-million-uighurs-in-secret-camps-idUSKBN1KV1SU https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-rights-un/u-n-says-...
- est 8y agoFact 6: the phone or computer you are using are manufactured in China with child slave labor. https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-child-labor-2012-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-child-labor-2012-1 https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-microsoft-and-lenovo-failing-on-child-labor-checks-says-amnesty/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-microsoft-and-lenovo-fai... I can guarantee you that labeling China with these can go on forever, but how does your fact help with the quesiton we are discussing? btw Yes I do think Google made the wrong move to cooperate with China. But also I don't think a search app is the plan here. Maybe there are some misunderstanding from the source.
- dnomad 8y agoIsn't it strange how in just a few days we go from "credible reports" of 1 million individuals to a fact of two million people in one "massive" "camp"? What's going to happen by Monday?
- mapgrep 8y ago>all reports about "Google returning to China" are based solely on the "Intercept report"[1] as source False. There has been a lot of independent reporting on this (even if credits Intercept for getting it first, and yes I work there). NYT confirmed based on "two people with knowledge of the plans." https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/01/technology/china-google-censored-search-engine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/01/technology/china-google-c... WSJ confirmed based on "a person familiar with the matter." https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-considering-censored-search-engine-for-return-to-china-1533157785 https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-considering-censored-sea... Reuters confirmed with "two sources said." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-google/google-plans-return-to-china-search-market-with-censored-app-sources-idUSKBN1KN09C https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-google/google-plans... VICE confirmed with "a source inside the company." https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/9kmdm8/google-china-censorship-secret-android-app https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/9kmdm8/google-china-cens...
- est 8y agowell, it's good to know the same two people are verified again and again. I do really appreciate those links. Are there any further development besides the initial "Intercept report" details? My best guess is that Google China somehow partnered with a major Android ROM developer in China to provide a search component in Android system, some kind of integration with "Custom Search API". It's nothing like the full search experience is returning to China, but technically it's based on the same google search infrastructure.
- knuththetruth 8y agoIt’s odd that you’re willing to so vehemently question sourced reporting, while simultaneously postulating, without any evidence, that a very narrow, favorable to Google scenario is likely to be the case.
- est 8y agoThose newer sourced reporting adds the "media credibility", reduced the noise, but did not increase signal. Thus multiple sources equals one source to me. Source is not some kind of score that can be accumulated, if you believe source quantity than quality then you are fallen into the power user trap. I like to analyze the structure & dynamic of a topic, not the number of "sources".
- robjan 8y agoMaps does not work in China. Source: in China
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rustacean 8y agogoogle web map always works in mainland
- est 8y agothis one does http://maps.google.cn/ http://maps.google.cn/
- client4 8y agoMaps work better in China than Japan. Source, living in Shanghai and Beijing with occasional Japan trips got a year.
- jmknoll 8y agoGoogle maps is not accessible without a VPN in China. Not sure what the disagreeement is about. I’m looking at it being blocked on my computer right now. You can see your own location in the Maps app, but that’s based on the phone’s GPS, not a google service. Not sure what the comparison to Japan is, but maps works fine in Tokyo. I use it extensively every time I go there.
- client4 8y agoI forgot to clarify, I'm using Google Fi in Beijing right now. My point was that, even though maps may be blocked, it really works flawlessly. It's better than Baidu maps, though Baidu has made great strides in quality lately.
- methou 8y agoBut how did you get the Google Fiber in Beijing? * edit: grammar.
- baybal2 8y ago>Fact 1: Google only pulled search business out of China. adsense/adwords/maps works fine in China Adsense in China is franchised to a Chinese company.
- est 8y agoDFI is pretty hard to pull off in a country like China.
- lawn 8y ago> Fact 2: Search engines are more and more irrelevant these days. All interesting new content are either from Weibo or Wechat (or other closed garden) Uh no. I don't see how you could even think that.
- vageli 8y agoI initially had that reaction but then remembered the initiative Facebook has to provide "internet" to impoverished places (basically just a portal to Facebook). And it's not just other countries—most of my non-technical friends do not browse news aggregators where they are exposed to multiple new sources (it's amazing how many blogs and smaller sites I've found because of HN and reddit).